If Black Isle wrote Mass Effect....

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Dungeon Siege III would probably be a good example of what it would resemble. Obsidian tend to be more straightforward about the limitations of a system. A cinematic voice-acted franchise like ME is bound to be very linear with little choice in the narrative. I imagine Obsidian would take away some illusion of choice, and add flavour and background in the dialogue instead.

SajuukKhar:

Furthermore my argument has nothing to do with having the entire world be a giant open-world sandbox game that you can explore every part of the moment the game starts.

I think that's exactly what your argument has to do with. It's the notion that if a game presents you with difficulty that you and your character are unable to deal with right from the start, the developers are "denying you content." If you are making a different argument, you are not expressing that argument in a clear fashion.

What's your opinion on the high-level dungeons near the starting area in Morrowind, BTW?

Bostur:
Dungeon Siege III would probably be a good example of what it would resemble. Obsidian tend to be more straightforward about the limitations of a system. A cinematic voice-acted franchise like ME is bound to be very linear with little choice in the narrative. I imagine Obsidian would take away some illusion of choice, and add flavour and background in the dialogue instead.

I dunno - Alpha Protocol was cinematic and fully voice acted, but everyone praises its narrative choice...

I'm gonna come out and say it though: I'm glad it was Bioware and not Obsidian that wrote Mass Effect. I've got a lot of respect for Chris Avellone and the team at Obsidian, but if they were at the helm it would've been a very different game. A big part of what I enjoyed about Mass Effect was the OTT space opera silliness that Bioware excels at.

So (with the obvious rider with regard to the ME3 ending) I think they had the right team for the job.

Kahunaburger:

I think that's exactly what your argument has to do with. It's the notion that if a game presents you with difficulty that you and your character are unable to deal with right from the start, the developers are "denying you content." If you are making a different argument, you are not expressing that argument in a clear fashion.

What's your opinion on the high-level dungeons near the starting area in Morrowind, BTW?

Hmm considering all the caves directly near the starting Seyda Neen in Morrowind were all low level I am not sure what you are talking about.
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As for what I am talking about in New Vegas

This picture below is how new Vegas is, the blue boxes are walls of monsters/landscape I dont give a shit about, those are acceptable for narrative, the green line is the path you take, and the red boxes are places if you step into ,before reaching New Vegas and then coming back, your basically dead


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This is how New Vegas SHOULD have been, notice you follow THE EXACT SAME PATH, but instead of having 80% of the world blocked off to you by vastly overpowered enemies you can actually, I dont know, do stuff.

I'm not saying that the places that had red boxes, and no longer do, should have super easy enemies that any half assed idiot could beat, they should have somewhat challenging enemies that, while difficult to beat are at least BEATABLE.

Insted of throwing up Feral Ghoul Reavers, Giant Radscoprions, cazadors and other things a low level player has 0 chance of beating, they should ave placed somewhat higher level, but still challenging monsters, that while difficult were still beatable.

SajuukKhar:

Kahunaburger:

I think that's exactly what your argument has to do with. It's the notion that if a game presents you with difficulty that you and your character are unable to deal with right from the start, the developers are "denying you content." If you are making a different argument, you are not expressing that argument in a clear fashion.

What's your opinion on the high-level dungeons near the starting area in Morrowind, BTW?

Hmm considering all the caves directly near the starting Seyda Neen in Morrowind were all low level I am not sure what you are talking about.

Haha, so in other words you didn't start out by exploring the Bitter Coast? I thought that, as someone who values the accessibility of areas at low level, you'd be all over that.

SajuukKhar:

I'm not saying that the places that had red boxes and no longer do should have super easy enemies that any half assed idiot could beat, they should have somewhat challenging enemies that, while difficult to beat,t are BEATABLE.

They were possible to get past. I had no problem in those areas at low-level - you just have to keep your eyes open and use stealth.

Kahunaburger:

They were possible to get past. I had no problem in those areas at low-level - you just have to keep your eyes open and use stealth.

So you beat 4 Feral Ghoul Reavers at level 4-5? doubtful.

Also at such a low level your stealth skills are so low anything could detect you, unless you absolutely maxed out your stealth skill in character creation. Having 20 sneak isn't gonna hide you from the 5-6 giant radscorpions they placed together.

furthermore one shouldn't HAVE to use stealth to be able to ever visit he content in the starter area of the game. That's like them doing "ohh sorry we wont let you into all these areas because we gave all the monsters a special power that only makes them weak to magic" sorry melee users your not allowed.

forcing a specific playstyle on people just to experience a good chuck of the content at the time they get to it is poor game design.

SajuukKhar:

Kahunaburger:

They were possible to get past. I had no problem in those areas at low-level - you just have to keep your eyes open and use stealth.

So you beat 4 Feral Ghoul Reavers at level 4-5? doubtful.

Also at such a low level your stealth skills are so low anything could detect you, unless you absolutely maxed out your stealth skill in character creation. Having 20 sneak isn't gonna hide you from the 5-6 giant radscorpions they placed together.

furthermore one shouldn't HAVE to use stealth to be able to ever visit he content in the starter area of the game. That's like them doing "ohh sorry we wont let you into all these areas because we gave all the monsters a special power that only makes them weak to magic"

forcing a specific playstyle on people just to experience a good chuck of the content at the time they get to it is poor game design.

Its well known the Mojave desert is a fucking killing floor. Do you honestly expect the traverse something that has "Death Valley" in it? The roads are the only thing that are safe, outside the roads its a death trap. Its the same in the wasteland as it is now. Wander off the path without taking precautions and you die.

The Mojave Desert isn't the idyllic land of Cyrodiil or Skyrim.

The fact the lower level areas were restricted to the roads was realistic for its geography. Expecting the Mojave desert to be tame enough for you to wander about is naive at best.

They put up SIGNS about the deathclaws, the reavers were pretty visible unless you wandered around not paying attention to anything. They are not forcing a playstyle on you, you are expecting to play rambo in a game where your party means EVERYTHING.

This isn't halo, this is a game where it follows the OLD rules of RPGS. The rule where the protagonist was useless without a balanced team. Considering Bioware makes an entire line of RPGS like this, it shouldn't be a fucking surprise they still exist.

If you expected it to be FO3 when it CLEARLY stated it followed the ORIGINAL RULES, its your own fault. Because the original way of thinking was VERY prominent. This includes you reverting to old saves because you died, a lot. Its the same in NV, the same in the old Fallouts.

They never forced a play style on you. Ever.

In New Vegas I wandered around in several of those red boxes at low level, moving cautiously from cover to cover, checking out my surroundings using binoculars or a scope. That was part of the fun of that game. And it made perfect sense to me that the roads were safer than the wilderness.

There is a vertical line along the river that is pretty much a no go before reaching Vegas, but that seemed obvious to me because it is the frontline between Caesars forces and NCR. Going through a warzone is suicide for a single civilian.

It's what gives the survival feel of NV. Talking to the locals, reading the map, make sensible conclusions.

Ultratwinkie:
snip

I didn't mind the deathclaws because they at least put up sings. I do however find it kinda silly that there is a giant radioactive crater full of feral ghoul reavers 5 feet from Primm and no one bothered to say jack shit about it or put up a sign. Having hard monsters isn't the problem, its a total lack of telling you whats were.

It would be nice if it was like Skyrim were people told you "ohh yeah there's some powerful shit in this area watch out". One would think the people who live in the area would KNOW ABOUT WHATS IN THE AREA AND WARN PEOPLE.

but nope, apparently the civilians of the Mojave just like letting people wander off and die.

If anything I think Skyrim's "guards telling you some powerful stuff in is X location" system came from so many people complaining about all the stupidly overpowered monsters in New Vegas that you had no way of know were there until they pounced you. Ugh I remember the litany of threads about New vegas on the forums when it came out.

SajuukKhar:

Kahunaburger:

They were possible to get past. I had no problem in those areas at low-level - you just have to keep your eyes open and use stealth.

So you beat 4 Feral Ghoul Reavers at level 4-5? doubtful.

Also at such a low level your stealth skills are so low anything could detect you, unless you absolutely maxed out your stealth skill in character creation. Having 20 sneak isn't gonna hide you from the 5-6 giant radscorpions they placed together.

furthermore one shouldn't HAVE to use stealth to be able to ever visit he content in the starter area of the game. That's like them doing "ohh sorry we wont let you into all these areas because we gave all the monsters a special power that only makes them weak to magic" sorry melee users your not allowed.

forcing a specific playstyle on people just to experience a good chuck of the content at the time they get to it is poor game design.

You don't have to have a stealth build to hit the crouch key and reduce your long-range detection chance. A low level character that (as they should) moves forward carefully and methodically is highly unlikely to get in a fight that you didn't pick.

And apparently this sort of design wasn't a problem for you in Morrowind haha.

Kahunaburger:
You don't have to have a stealth build to hit the crouch key and reduce your long-range detection chance. A low level character that (as they should) moves forward carefully and methodically is highly unlikely to get in a fight that you didn't pick.

And apparently this sort of design wasn't a problem for you in Morrowind haha.

I never had to do that in Morrowind.
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Also I can name several instances were I was walking along the road and some giant rapscropions came out of seemingly nowhere.

raiders and the sort frequently ended up dragging higher level enemies onto the roads.

that gas station near the Mojave outpost frequently had 3 giant radscorpions that liked to wander over onto the road.

SajuukKhar:
It would be nice if it was like Skyrim were people told you "ohh yeah there's some powerful shit in this area watch out". One would think the people who live in the area would KNOW ABOUT WHATS IN THE AREA AND WARN PEOPLE.

but nope, apparently the civilians of the Mojave just like letting people wander off and die.

If anything I think Skyrim's "guards telling you some powerful stuff in is X location" system came from so many people complaining about all the stupidly overpowered monsters in New Vegas that you had no way of know were there until they pounced you. Ugh I remember the litany of threads about New vegas on the forums when it came out.

I'm pretty sure I remember Trudy and Sunny telling me to be careful around the roads along with the workers at Sloan.

Oh well, stuff like that isn't really a problem for me. I just fight back, sneak past or look for alternate routes and then go on my merry way.

ChupathingyX:

I'm pretty sure I remember Trudy and Sunny telling me to be careful around the roads along with the workers at Sloan.

Oh well, stuff like that isn't really a problem for me. I just fight back, sneak past or look for alternate routes and then go on my merry way.

I remember them telling me "dont go north because the north roads are infested with deathclaws".

I mean yeah you could basically avoid everything by staying on the road, but all that means is that you stayed on the road for 4 hours and not actually got to go anywhere.

It was fun when I got to New vegas, got some level-ups from quests, then went back and got to look around for a chance without having 5 feral ghouls reavers jump me, but it feels like it would have been better had I gotten to do that when I was there originally, not after 6 hours of backtracking.

SajuukKhar:

Kahunaburger:
You don't have to have a stealth build to hit the crouch key and reduce your long-range detection chance. A low level character that (as they should) moves forward carefully and methodically is highly unlikely to get in a fight that you didn't pick.

And apparently this sort of design wasn't a problem for you in Morrowind haha.

I never had to do that in Morrowind.

You never had to come up with strategies for dealing with enemies you can't take in a fair fight? I have fond memories of killing those black dart guys as a level 4 character, then being too protective of the darts to actually use them. Or killing some high-level slaver dude for his glass pants. Or running past two winged twilights, grabbing the legendary levitation boots, and hovering away. (Turns out winged twilights can't fly. Lol wut?) Or...

SajuukKhar:

Also I can name several instances were I was walking along the road and some giant rapscropions came out of seemingly nowhere.

raiders and the sort frequently ended up dragging higher level enemies onto the roads.

that gas station near the Mojave outpost frequently had 3 giant radscorpions that liked to wander over onto the road.

Thus demonstrating the importance of: A) seeing, B) not being seen. Seriously, if you do that you will have no problem surviving low levels.

SajuukKhar:

ChupathingyX:

I'm pretty sure I remember Trudy and Sunny telling me to be careful around the roads along with the workers at Sloan.

Oh well, stuff like that isn't really a problem for me. I just fight back, sneak past or look for alternate routes and then go on my merry way.

I remember them telling me "dont go north because the north roads are infested with deathclaws".

I mean yeah you could basically avoid everything by staying on the road, but all that means is that you stayed on the road for 4 hours and not actually got to go anywhere.

It was fun when I got to New vegas, got some level-ups from quests, then went back and got to look around for a chance without having 5 feral ghouls reavers jump me, but it feels like it would have been better had I gotten to do that when I was there originally, not after 6 hours of backtracking.

I honestly don't ever remember running into reavers early on, are you referring to the nuclear test site?

If you are then I never really explored that area early on in the game, I didn't really care much for exploring. I wouldn't say the game "railroads" you, but it does "strongly encourage" you to press forward along a designated path.

SajuukKhar:

I remember them telling me "dont go north because the north roads are infested with deathclaws".

I mean yeah you could basically avoid everything by staying on the road, but all that means is that you stayed on the road for 4 hours and not actually got to go anywhere.

It was fun when I got to New vegas, got some level-ups from quests, then went back and got to look around for a chance without having 5 feral ghouls reavers jump me, but it feels like it would have been better had I gotten to do that when I was there originally, not after 6 hours of backtracking.

There is line said by Sunny about "sticking to the roads" to avoid some of the worse critters, but it is quite general.

Do you not think, that having some parts of the game being incredibly hard to deal with early in the game did help contribute to the idea of how dangerous the Mojave was, and the necessity of taming her?

I dunno, it never really bothered me too much but I constantly quick save, but it did help me really develop a sense of unease when setting out into unexplored territory, I really didn't feel like I was ever completely safe until I was near people/at a campsite/etc. Which reinforces the idea of civilization as being a good thing, IMHO.

Mind you, I might be over thinking it.

Ultratwinkie:
Scenario: Looking back I see all the plot holes in Mass Effect 1 and 2. I began to wonder what it would be like if another team wrote Mass Effect.

So I ask you, if all the guys from Black Isle (now Obsidian) came in and written the story (not gameplay), would you play it? It has the basic premise of ancient reapers invading, but everything else is up to the writers.

In your opinion, would Black Isle pen a better or worse story? Who else would you allow to make Mass Effect?

Personally, I would choose Valve to write it if it wasn't the guys from Black isle.

Who would you choose? And what would be different?

If Black Isle had penned Mass Effect, it would have been worse because the game would never have been released because of Black Isle going defunct.

ChupathingyX:

I honestly don't ever remember running into reavers early on, are you referring to the nuclear test site?

If you are then I never really explored that area early on in the game, I didn't really care much for exploring. I wouldn't say the game "railroads" you, but it does "strongly encourage" you to press forward along a designated path.

No I'm talking about the giant radioactive crater west of primm, that has 4 reavers in it.

370999:

There is line said by Sunny about "sticking to the roads" to avoid some of the worse critters, but it is quite general.

Do you not think, that having some parts of the game being incredibly hard to deal with early in the game did help contribute to the idea of how dangerous the Mojave was, and the necessity of taming her?

I dunno, it never really bothered me too much but I constantly quick save, but it did help me really develop a sense of unease when setting out into unexplored territory, I really didn't feel like I was ever completely safe until I was near people/at a campsite/etc. Which reinforces the idea of civilization as being a good thing, IMHO.

Mind you, I might be over thinking it.

Having SOME parts be hard is fine, but this.

Were all the Red boxes pretty much kill you until you get to New vegas and come back is ludicrous.

Alright, I'll take up SajuukKhar's argument, since everyone seems to be saying the first half of Fallout New Vegas wasn't railroad-y. My big problem with the game was not that they every high level enemy they could to keep me on the road (though that did bother me and every time I play the game I test my boundaries with how far outside the railroad I can take things) my bigger problem was the massive plot railroad. Why is everyone west of Nipton so concerned with getting me to go after the people who shot me in the head? Revenge? Sorry, my character isn't in to that, hence the good-natured trait I took at the start of the game. Curiosity? The last time I ran into them, they shot me in the head. I don't think I'm that curious. Plot convenience? Oh alright, I'll go after them. Everyone assumes I just want to take the most direct pathway to get to the people who shot me that it honestly gets a little annoying. Hell, they even make rescuing a town from powder gangers about tracking down my assailants. What if I just want to play some character who wants to help reinforce the law in the Mojave? I hear there is this nice gang running amok? Oh, you can deal with them if you want, but everyone would much rather talk about this people who shot you so you can go chase after them. New Vegas did everything they could to make sure I followed on a specific pathway that finally started to open up just after Nipton.

SajuukKhar:

ChupathingyX:

I honestly don't ever remember running into reavers early on, are you referring to the nuclear test site?

If you are then I never really explored that area early on in the game, I didn't really care much for exploring. I wouldn't say the game "railroads" you, but it does "strongly encourage" you to press forward along a designated path.

No I'm talking about the giant radioactive crater west of primm, that has 4 reavers in it.

That area is pretty easy to avoid, not to mention reavers aren't as powerful as they were in Fallout 3.

At what point can we just rename the thread "Did you think New Vegas was more challenging then Fallout 3?"

bullfrog, now that would make for a very different game...

j0frenzy:
SNIP

Uhhh, you can just ignore the main quest.

Oh, and you can help people with law control. Heck, you can get a quest in Primm to help them get a new sheriff to help with control or get the NCR to help which is exactly what you just said you couldn't do.

Deputy Beagle doesn't give a shit about your problems, he just wants to you help him with his.

Not to mention you don't even need to talk to people, you can just head straight to Vegas by yourself without talking to anyone.

ChupathingyX:
Uhhh, you can just ignore the main quest.

Oh, and you can help people with law control. Heck, you can get a quest in Primm to help them get a new sheriff to help with control or get the NCR to help which is exactly what you just said you couldn't do.

Deputy Beagle doesn't give a shit about your problems, he just wants to you help him with his.

Not to mention you don't even need to talk to people, you can just head straight to Vegas by yourself without talking to anyone.

The thing is though is that there was so little to do in the beginning of New vegas you could pretty much ONLY do the MQ, becuase of all the arbitrary area resitctions and lack of side quests.

90% of the side quests were locked up in the New vegas area/upper half of the map.

SajuukKhar:

The thing is though is that there was so little to do in the beginning of New vegas you could pretty much ONLY do the MQ, becuase of all the arbitrary area resitctions and lack of side quests.

90% of the side quests were locked up in the New vegas area/upper half of the map.

Well, that's because 90% of people live in or around the Vegas area.

This isn't the uncivilised east coast, this is the civilised west coast where people don't tend to live in random settlements in the middle of nowhere.

It makes perfect sense in the context of the world.

ChupathingyX:
Well, that's because 90% of people live in or around the Vegas area.

This isn't the uncivilised east coast, this is the civilised west coast where people don't tend to live in random settlements in the middle of nowhere.

It makes perfect sense in the context of the world.

Yes, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they way they designed the beginning of the game gave you nothing to do besides the MQ, which forced you to do the MQ, which forced you down a road, which was further supplemented by overly high leveld NPCs at evry turn FORCING you to go down a very specific path.

The game railroaded you down a path, it railroaded you into the MQ even if you didn't want to do it, it railroaded you in your playstyles.

The entire first half of the game was a giant railroad section.

There are several things they could have done that would have allowed the wasteland to appear dangerous but not deny you acess to half the content, and they didn't do it.

The bottom half of the map was just simple poorly designed, the upper half of the map was great however.

Nikolaz72:

SajuukKhar:

Ultratwinkie:
Fallout 1 and 2 were the same way. If you west west from Vault 13, you were met with Super Mutants with miniguns, rocket launchers, rippers, and power fists.

People expected NV to follow Fallout 3 rules. It follows the ORIGINAL rules where areas were cordoned off until you were a higher level.

That would be fine if they gave any sort of warning or hint about it.

As it stands now the game was railroaded, needlessly.

They did tell you where to go, and they did tell you the wasteland was damn dangerous so you better rely on the experienced. Although a lot of people probably chose to skip the convo and get directly to exploration, which would be a lot safer if you took Outdoorsmanship. But a lot of powergamers just skipped that skill 'entirely' and took weapons feats. Which caused their death, 50 Outdoorsmanship can save your life. 60 Smallarms skill and a pistol can extend it. ((Fallout1/2))

This. 1,000 times this. If you are unable to go up against the Deathclaws north of Goodsprings at level 1/2, then the problem is you. I cleared the whole quarry before I hit level 3 using only a repaired varmint rifle (only finished the Ghost Town Gun Fight quest before I left but looted several rifles from that). The key here is to throw every point you have into Guns and then sneak + headshots, but if you play CAREFULLY, you most certainly CAN do this. And this was all before I started modding the game with the +40 DT invisible backpack, mind you.

As to warning? How about the signs posted like every 20 freaking feet that say plainly "WARNING DEATHCLAWS AHEAD!" I mean seriously, what did you thing this was, Quake? New Vegas (can't speak for 1/2/3 because I don't play shooters that have no actual gun sights...ugh) isn't a respawner game. Stealth and distance are your friends. If you don't use them and try to club the Deathclaw Alpha with a half-repaired baseball bat, then your death is your fault.

As to OT, I think if nothing else it would be totally devoid of all plot holes. Say what you will about the engine and mechanics (both could use more improvement) but the writing, the universe, the outright immersion in New Vegas was perfect, lacking in nothing. No plot holes, no incontinuity of any kind. I felt like I was really in the Mojave, there really was a massive nuclear winter, and as a Courier, I really was engaged in an epic struggle just to deliver a damn trinket to a place so close I could see it, always just out of reach. The best part? I was able to CHOOSE whether I lived or died! OMFG what a revolutionary idea! I could have a "fairy tale" ending if I want, I could have the most awful ending if I want, and I could even have 2 "in between" endings if I want. Holy crap at all the choices I was given!

Story is what Black isle (Obsidian) did best. In my opinion, they were the best in the business.

Weren't they responsible for Kotor 2? which btw had a completely bogus end sequence (only the pain lasted 1h and a half, instead of 10 m).

I liked Alpha Protocol roleplaying, but i had to cheat on the shooting cause it was agravating...

SajuukKhar:

Yes, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they way they designed the beginning of the game gave you nothing to do besides the MQ, which forced you to do the MQ, which forced you down a road, which was further supplemented by overly high leveld NPCs at evry turn FORCING you to go down a very specific path.

The game railroaded you down a path, it railroaded you into the MQ even if you didn't want to do it, it railroaded you in your playstyles.

The entire first half of the game was a giant railroad section.

There are several things they could have done that would have allowed the wasteland to appear dangerous but not deny you acess to half the content, and they didn't do it.

The bottom half of the map was just simple poorly designed, the upper half of the map was great however.

Well, they did begin design with Vegas and then spread out[1] (which is why there is almost nothing where the Fort is).

That may seem like a cop out of an answer but you're probably aware of the very limited time the game was made on. Personally, I wanted to do the main quest so this wasn't a problem but I can see why it was for other people, and even then, maybe it is railroaded if referring simply to the route taken during the first "half", but when it comes to the actual story and rest of the main quest it's hardly railroaded.

[1] I don't have the actual quote but I remember J. E. Sawyer stating this on his formspring a long time ago

I love the fact that this thread has be completely dis-railed... to talk about rail roading XD

Really, this thread was originally about Mass Effect and what if Obsidian wrote it. Now it is about rail roading, New Vegas and a map with pretty colours on it.

For my part, I don't mind the whole survival aspect of sneaking or finding your way through enemy filled areas, but I really do hate that once you level up enough, it completely removes the survival aspect, making Survival and Hardcore more even more pointless.

What I am trying to say is that having areas with harder foes is a great idea, but make a way or a path through them. Make multiple paths. Remember, if you couldn't disarm the Megaton Bomb, you could always take some good ol' drugs to help you. It meant you didn't have to sink points into something that is useless to you. In this case, it would be waste time on a trek pointless to you.

Yes, the enemies are stupidly hard, yes, the game does kind of rail road you but the biggest thing I find is you can just skip the whole main story, walk to Vegas and kill Benny. Sounds easy, but it isn't really. The problem is that in trying to keep to the idea of the MQ, they made it super hard to do other things. I would say it's easier to run along the MQ line and just get to Vegas ASAP, then to try to go direct. It just doesn't work due the enemies. They are totally ok and add to the idea of the game being about a fucking end-o'-world situation, but kinda backfire in that they limit the starting.

It basically turns the whole "Find Benny" trek into one big tutorial, and that means that most of your new characters have to do it. At the very least it means they will always see the same things for the first few hours.

But, I still love New Vegas.
And how about something we can all agree on?

Fuck cazadors!

ChupathingyX:
Well, they did begin design with Vegas and then spread out(which is why there is almost nothing where the Fort is).

That may seem like a cop out of an answer but you're probably aware of the very limited time the game was made on. Personally, I wanted to do the main quest so this wasn't a problem but I can see why it was for other people, and even then, maybe it is railroaded if referring simply to the route taken during the first "half", but when it comes to the actual story and rest of the main quest it's hardly railroaded.

I have heard the "limited time" excuse being used for every single game Obsidian has ever game that was buggy or had terrible game mechanics, which is to say all of them.

Kotor 2? LIMITED TIME LIMITED TIME
NWN2? LIMITED TIME LIMITED TIME
Alpha Protocol? LIMITED TIME LIMITED TIME
New Vegas? ditto
Dungeon Siege III? ditto again

I swear its every Obsidian fans ultimate excuse, just say they had too limited of time.

Also the MQ is practically over once you get to New Vegas, at that point you pick a side, do 5 get forces missions, and then its the battle of Hoover Dam.

All I know is, any other development team would have had the presence of mind to NOT blow up the mass relays. I mean, BioWare clearly did not think that whole thing through.

Greg Waller:
All I know is, any other development team would have had the presence of mind to NOT blow up the mass relays. I mean, BioWare clearly did not think that whole thing through.

Destorying the mass relays was symbolic of finally ending The Reapers control over organic life.

Also it wouldn't be that hard for the races to just make more.

Also there is still FTL travel which was highly underdeveloped becuase of the Mass relay system, which they could improve.

Destroying the relay system only really puts them back a couple hundred years, which is very short term.

SajuukKhar:
SNIP

That's because it's true, they all were developed in a much shorter time than their "predecessor".

Also the MQ is practically over once you get to New Vegas, at that point you pick a side, do 5 get forces missions, and then its the battle of Hoover Dam.

*shivers*

Now there's a discussion I'd rather not get involed in again.

Otherwise, I'd have to write up another 8,000 word report, which I can't be bothered doing right now since I deleted the previous one.

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