Skyrim is probably the BETTER game overall, but for some reason I liked oblivion better. I had that feeling of needing to keep going with the story/quests/guilds and exploration in a way I just dont get for skyrim.

On another note, anyone else confused why they put in brawls and make them semi important to some parts of the game, but take out your unarmed skill. makes no sense to me. I feel like no matter who i brawl we're evenly matched unless I have way more hp than them.

Jaeke:

rutger5000:
Haha so Skyrim and Oblivion are battleling for silver. Well couldn't care less as long as there hasn't been anything better then Morrowind. Sure it had it problems, the graphics weren't top notch not even during those days, the melee fighting mechanics was overly simplified, and uhm I'm sure there are some other faults. But you were free! In the begining alone you had an amazing vararity of choices. #race-and-sex*#different sets of major and minor skills*#Different star sign = enormous number. And then there is the freedom in magic, each spell-effect giving you new ways to deal with opponents and troubles, they really added to the dept of the whole game.

I don't understand. I will never understand. This concept of Morrowind being better, even than Oblivion, is just so unnatural to me.

Maybe its because I played Oblivion first but... Well anyways, almost immediately after Skyrim was first announced, I bought Morrowind since I had already put in 500+ hours in Oblivion and didn't feel like playing it more.

That was the most boring and miserable skulldragging excuse of a game I've played. And to count out the whole "well its an older generation you don't understand." trust me, ive put in my fair share of KOTOR, Fable, Oddworld, Max Payne like most people here but seriously... EVERY aspect of Morrowind is improved upon in Skyrim.

This is just how I feel but:
I feel that unlike any other game Morrowind provides you with real choices. You can have an entirely different game by picking up a few skills, buying a few items and aquiring a few spells. Mastering the levitation spell alone gives adds totally different aspects to the game. Suddenly fights become 3 dimensional(especially against cliffracers), suddendly you CAN get over those mountains instead of walking around them.
Skyrim just lacks aspects that make it a deep game. No matter what choices you make, the game won't really change.

Crono1973:

SajuukKhar:

Crono1973:

I don't need you to tell me why levitate was removed, but thanks anyway.

LOL @

Yeah buddy, like they didn't remove the Mako in ME2, they just merged it with planet scanning.

That's great, you like Bethesdas' poor attempt at action adventure more than their previous attempts at RPG's. You'll probably be rewarded in TES 6 with Heart Pieces.

Worthless perks, the ones you have to choose to get to the good one, I already said this.

Lets see

Agility
Oblivion - Affects your total Fatigue, damage dealt by ranged weapons, and your steadiness in combat
Skyrim - Fatigue is raised through the level-ups, ranged weapon damage is raised by the skill itself, and steadiness in combat is affected by a couple of perks

Intelligence
Oblivion - Affects your total Magicka.
Skyrim - Magicka is raised through leveling-up

Personality
Oblivion - Affects your ability to gain information and better prices from NPCs.
Skyrim - Raising the Speech skill gets you better prices and helps with persuasion choices

Speed
Oblivion - Affects how fast you move.
Skyrim - merged with your race height, taller races move faster

Strength
Oblivion - Affects your total encumbrance, your total Fatigue and the damage done by melee attacks.
Skyrim - encumbrance is affected by fatigue, fatigue is raised through level-ups, and melee damage is affected by the skill itself.

Willpower
Oblivion - Affects the rate at which Magicka regenerates, as well as your total Fatigue.
Skyrim - the rate at which magicka regens is based on you total magicka, and fatigue is raised through level-ups

Endurance
Oblivion - Affects your total Fatigue, as well as your starting health and your health gain upon leveling up.
Skyrim - Fatigue is affected through level-ups, health gain is always 10 but also affcted by level-ups
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The only attribute NOT present in Skyrim is Luck which really did nothing, and only a small part of endurance was removed.

to say Skyrim doesn't have recreate the same affects that attributes did in previous games is factually wrong.

Being there but not under your control (ie, raised by level ups) is the same as not being there, unless Skyrim wants to be a JRPG. You don't remember the satisfaction of running faster because your athletics skill was being built up? Being able to jump from cliffs with little damage because you built up your acrobatics?

In Oblivion you chose which attributes you wanted to raise during a level up (up to +5). You go on pretending that Skyrim is really the same, it isn't.

I really didn't like the levelling up in Oblivion because it felt like I had to 'game the system' to get the character I wanted. The ideal character had a specific formula for levelling and it wasn't intuitive at all. If you check out the guides, you actually want to -not- level up your main abilities quickly.

I also found it frustrating to have to do stuff like bouncing around like an idiot rabbit to get my strength / whatever up high. It felt... jarring and out of place.

Indecipherable:

I really didn't like the levelling up in Oblivion because it felt like I had to 'game the system' to get the character I wanted. The ideal character had a specific formula for levelling and it wasn't intuitive at all. If you check out the guides, you actually want to -not- level up your main abilities quickly.

I also found it frustrating to have to do stuff like bouncing around like an idiot rabbit to get my strength / whatever up high. It felt... jarring and out of place.

Yeah, the Elder Scrolls leveling system in general is terribly designed, particularly when you throw level scaling into the mix. Skyrim removes some of the terrible design decisions with the leveling system by throwing the RPG elements baby out with the bathwater, but in general if the hardest part of the game is leveling up without gimping your character, something somewhere along the line has gone horribly wrong.

Kahunaburger:
A lot of those led to all kinds of emergent fun, though. You could leave humanoids stranded with Drain Strength 25 for 4 Seconds, buff speed to run or fly around hilariously fast, hammer an enemy's speed to slow them down to a crawl, etc. And (although they aren't used this way in TES) attributes can be used to create special dialogue or gameplay features for particularly smart/dumb, lucky/unlucky, etc. PCs. IMO, any design decision in TES that limits character customization and emergent fun should probably be re-examined.

Well we could have that again with the skyrim system... if Bethesda would re-add damage X spells/effects. We dont really need the attribute system for that.
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Also they could easily add in skill based dialog choices like Fallout does with guns/science/etc. choices, using 1handed/two handed/etc. and no attribute system would be needed.
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Furthermore I have found character to be FAR more customizable in Skyrim then in ANY previous ES game. In old Es games you started off unique but once you got all your skills to 100 everyone became the exact same. IN Skyrim everyone starts off the same but becomes unique because everyone picks different perks.

More precisely
In Morrowind/Oblivion - a character that started off as a thief, and a character that started off as a mage would be the exact same once they got all their skills to 100
In Skyrim a character who strated off as a thief, and a character that started off as a mage may both have 100 in all skills but their perk choices can make them wildly different.
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Also they removed attributes BECAUSE so many people said it wasn't fun trying to manage them. So they kind already DID take fun into consideration when doing that.

Crono1973:

Being there but not under your control (ie, raised by level ups) is the same as not being there, unless Skyrim wants to be a JRPG. You don't remember the satisfaction of running faster because your athletics skill was being built up? Being able to jump from cliffs with little damage because you built up your acrobatics?

In Oblivion you chose which attributes you wanted to raise during a level up (up to +5). You go on pretending that Skyrim is really the same, it isn't.

Except they are under your control because you choose what to level up.
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furthermore do you mean "do I remember spending hours upon hours being forced to grind athletics because of how slowly it leveled only to have it increase my speed by a very marginal sum"?

Yes I do and it was god-awful
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Ok I guess the choices of what skills I level up and my ability to choose to raise health/magicka/fatigue dont exist.

Crono1973:
Saying a character is less customizable because in the end they aren't unique doesn't make sense. It's a non sequitur.

Except that wasn't my point at all.

Crono1973:
Ok, what was your point?

That perks make characters more diverse because even if you have 100 in all skills your perks could vary wildly giving each vastly different powers.
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Compared to Oblivion/Morrowind were most people gamed the attribute system and had 100 or nearly 100 in all stats/attributes in the end making them all essentially the exact same.

all that playing a thief/mage/warrior stuff was made totally pointless because no matter your play style you ended up the exact same as everyone else.

I see a lot of people saying the Skyrim is a better game even though the quest lines are worse. That confuses me, isn't the strength of a single player rpg based entirely on its quests? Sure you can explore the world but after a while the lack of direction can be annoying. In Skyrim I feel like I'm grinding and I never once felt that way in Oblivion because the quest lines cleverly disguised it. I think the only thing Skyrim has on Oblivion is that it makes a better first impression. In short, with out good questing in a game entirely composed of quests what is the point?

I'm level 35 and I've completed all the guilds and the main quest in Skyrim and I'm very, very disappointed.

Crono1973:
1) The gimped skills to make perks seem better than skills. In Oblivion/Morrowind there were no perks and the skills weren't gimped.

2) It would take many many hours to max out everything in MW/OB. Most people didn't do that more than once, if at all.

In Final Fantasy IV you couldn't make all your characters the same, even if you wanted to. In Final Fantasy VI you could make them all the same if you wanted to put the time into it. I think Final Fantasy VI offered more freedom. What do you think?

Funny, you say skills are gimped yet
-I have zero perks in two-haned and can kick major ass with two-handed weapons
-I have zero perks in heavy-armor and I can get maxed armor rating
-I have zero perks in archery and yet I can kill tons of things with bows easy

You dont need perks to be good in a skill, you need them to be great in a skill, but the skills works fine without perks because raising skills also increases your ability to do said skill.

Raising sneak makes it easier to sneak, no perks required. Raising 1 handed makes 1 handed MUCH better by the time you get to 100, again no skills required, same with every other skills.
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It wasn't that hard to max things, Morrowind THREW cash at you like no other and combined with unlimited skill trains and master trainers raising skills was easy.

Oblivion had Shadowmere exploiting, amongst others that made raising skills uber easy and quick also.

furthermore I know TONS of people that maxed all thier skills on every play-through. It was far from uncommon.
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I never played any of the FF games besides the first two. Originally I tired playing 7 and hated every second of it, I went back and played the older ones because I heard they were better but never got around to play anything but the first two.

FF just bores the shit out of me. The monotonous grinding is what got me.

SajuukKhar:

Kahunaburger:
A lot of those led to all kinds of emergent fun, though. You could leave humanoids stranded with Drain Strength 25 for 4 Seconds, buff speed to run or fly around hilariously fast, hammer an enemy's speed to slow them down to a crawl, etc. And (although they aren't used this way in TES) attributes can be used to create special dialogue or gameplay features for particularly smart/dumb, lucky/unlucky, etc. PCs. IMO, any design decision in TES that limits character customization and emergent fun should probably be re-examined.

Well we could have that again with the skyrim system... if Bethesda would re-add damage X spells/effects. We dont really need the attribute system for that.

It depends - they could probably accomplish the same effects with a much less elegant system. Burden X or Feather X would accomplish a lot of the same effects as the Strength stuff, Increase/Decrease Speed X could be made even if Speed isn't a stat, etc. That sort of solution would feel like a band-aid to cover the lack of a working stat system to me, though.

SajuukKhar:

Also they could easily add in skill based dialog choices like Fallout does with guns/science/etc. choices, using 1handed/two handed/etc. and no attribute system would be needed.

That would definitely be good, although stat-based dialogue choices would also be good. The skill system doesn't cover character traits like critical thinking ability or luck.

SajuukKhar:

More precisely
In Morrowind/Oblivion - a character that started off as a thief, and a character that started off as a mage would be the exact same once they got all their skills to 100
In Skyrim a character who strated off as a thief, and a character that started off as a mage may both have 100 in all skills but their perk choices can make them wildly different.

I agree with keeping perks - anything that adds character diversity is IMO a good idea. (Speaking of which, you could make a case that "lucky" and "critical thinker" might work as perks that grant additional dialogue options in lieu of stats.)

That said, I think that late-game Morrowind characters do feel significantly different from each other - my axe-wielding battlemage who was born under the sign of the Atronach and cast spells the old-fashioned way felt very distinct from my enchanter who had a magic ring for every situation. Equipment choices (does your left gauntlet boost your Enchant skill, or does it summon a Bound Longbow?) and birthsigns do accomplish quite a bit to differentiate characters even in that game.

SajuukKhar:

Also they removed attributes BECAUSE so many people said it wasn't fun trying to manage them. So they kind already DID take fun into consideration when doing that.

I agree that the way the stat system was implemented in Morrowind and Oblivion was fundamentally terrible. That doesn't mean that stats were the problem - the leveling system (and, in Oblivion, level-scaling system) was the clear culprit there.

Kahunaburger:
snip

If you can do the exact same things, with the exact same results, but minus stats, I dont really see how it is a "band-aid" fix.

Given that magicka is governed by intelligence, smarter people are better at using their magicka reserves and have more of it, once could easily just put up a magicka check and call it a [int] check.

I personally dont think "luck" should ever be included as a skill, an attribute, a perk or anything in a game. It just stupid in every way possible IMO because Luck being a "plausible" anything involves you not knowing how the game works. All Luck does is slightly increase the chance of things other skills do anyways by a stupidly small amount even at high levels. I would rather them just make the skills do more themselves because Luck is just redundant, and meaningless, in every way possible.

Well with the way Morrowind, and ES in general, throws magic items in your face at every turn, you could just carry around a select set assortment of items that gave you powers for every situation. I mean your currently equipped gear doesn't mean anything when you have more items in your inventory for every other possible situation.

If they did ever put attributes back in I would personally prefer they remove the +1,+3,+5 thing and work on a 1-10 scale, similar to Fallout 3/New vegas's instead of a 100 scale, but unlike fallout make it possible to get all attributes to 10 but make it very very hard.

Crono1973:

I remember reading (I didn't personally get very far in Skyrim) that you would be better at a skill with a single perk and a low skill level than to have the skill level maxed out. That the perks were just too important and building skills wasn't. Perhaps someone can comment on this. Speaking of sneak, does it even work in Skyrim? When I tried to sneak, it was never successful. You could sneak successfully in the tutorial dungeon in Oblivion.

I never said it was hard to max out your stats in Morrowind/Oblivion, just that it takes loads of time. I never maxed out all my stats in either game but I put hundreds of hours into it over the course of many games.

Exploits don't count. You may as well say the TGM is fair play.

Well, my point was that a game that allows you to completely customize each character to the point of being the same is almost always going to be offering more freedom than one that doesn't.

I have 100 sneak and zero perks in it and I sneak around everything like a boss, so yes it does work. Also you can sneak past the bear in the starting cave under the fort in Skyrim.

Also at 15 two-handed skill my daedric greatsword does 26 damage, at 100 it did 36. at 15 two-handed skill + the first two handed damage increasing perk my damage was 31. ALso IIRc getting magic from 15-100 causes a 44% decrease in spell cost.

I can play through Morrowind and get all my attributes to 100 in less then 50 hours. All the money Morrowind throws at you + unlimited skill trains = making attribute raising a sinch.

Exploits are using the games built in systems as the devs programmed them to do things after then intended. TGM console command the player isn't supposed to use, nor was the game designed around using them. they are so different.

I dont agree at all.

Crono1973:
I could never sneak past the bear, easy to kill anyway. Sneak never worked for me at all though.

Exploits are cheats just like console commands.

I don't see how limiting your customization options gives you more customization freedom. How does "you can't teach cura to Cecil" = more freedom than "you can teach cura to everyone"?

I sneaked past the bear several times, hell I walked right up to it while sneaking and it didn't move a inch.
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Except one is using the game's systems as they were coded and one is using the developers console. two wildly different things, to say they are even remotely similar is kinda funny.
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Except you aren't limiting your customization options because perks give more customization then attributes ever did.

How does "being able to pick and choose your powers and abilities by choosing perks" = less freedom/customization then "everyone is forced to have the same powers/abilities becuase they got all thier skills/attributes to just about the same level"

I was pretty gutted when I found out I couldn't make my own spells in Skyrim :(

endtherapture:
I was pretty gutted when I found out I couldn't make my own spells in Skyrim :(

That was a sad day indeed.

Though considering how broken crafting anything, be it spells, alchemy, smithing, enchanting have been in past ES games I am surprised they haven't removed all of them.

crafting in RPGs always turns out to be eaither a complete gimmick, as in fallout 3/New vegas's case, or totally OP.

SajuukKhar:

Kahunaburger:
snip

If you can do the exact same things, with the exact same results, but minus stats, I dont really see how it is a "band-aid" fix.

Given that magicka is governed by intelligence, smarter people are better at using their magicka reserves and have more of it, once could easily just put up a magicka check and call it a [int] check.

It seems more intuitive to me to just have an intelligence score/perk - having a magicka check in conversations seems like it would generate a whole lot of "wait, why does my max mana reserve have anything to do with my ability to detect an inconsistency in the story this person is telling me?"

SajuukKhar:
I personally dont think "luck" should ever be included as a skill, an attribute, a perk or anything in a game. It just stupid in every way possible IMO because Luck being a "plausible" anything involves you not knowing how the game works. All Luck does is slightly increase the chance of things other skills do anyways by a stupidly small amount even at high levels. I would rather them just make the skills do more themselves because Luck is just redundant, and meaningless, in every way possible.

IMO it depends. It works in New Vegas, because it also makes you better at gambling and at high ability levels lets you make lucky guesses and the like in dialogue. I could actually see it working in TES as well, since the game incorporates procedurally generated content. "The RNG likes/hates him/her" would be an interesting twist for a character.

SajuukKhar:
Well with the way Morrowind, and ES in general, throws magic items in your face at every turn, you could just carry around a select set assortment of items that gave you powers for every situation. I mean your currently equipped gear doesn't mean anything when you have more items in your inventory for every other possible situation.

I think this is something that depends on the character. My enchanter build, for example, was basically married to a +Enchant suit, so couldn't use clothing artifacts the way other builds could. But I do agree that in general a perk system is a step in the right direction re: differentiating characters.

SajuukKhar:

If they did ever put attributes back in I would personally prefer they remove the +1,+3,+5 thing and work on a 1-10 scale, similar to Fallout 3/New vegas's instead of a 100 scale, but unlike fallout make it possible to get all attributes to 10 but make it very very hard.

I like the Fallout method as well, including the way that SPECIAL scores can't be leveled up the way they can in TES, further differentiating characters. I do like the idea of being able increase or damage them with magic, however, for basically the same reasons discussed earlier.

Kahunaburger:
snip.

I can think of an easy fix.

When leveling up change the Magicka/Health/Fatigue options into INT/END/STR, then toss a "your INT/END/STR level is X" above your magicka/health/fatigue bars.

That way people get their attributes, which were never really gone, just renamed, back, and it opens up dialogue checks.

I mean that really is all magicka/HP/Fatigue in Skyrim are, renamed versions of INT/END/STR and to where the "you have put X number of level up points into said things" hidden.

My level 81 character has 30END, 25STR, and 25INT

Also maybe give them a VERY sight modification to your skills, like INT makes spell cost go down or something, but not in some super huge if you have 40 INT you spells cost are 0 kinda of way.
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Ugh New Vegas and gambling...... just another thing that made me hate luck stats even more.
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Yes but did you need that +enchant suit while in battle? probably not. A +enchant suit is really only useful while enchanting, I dont see how you couldn't have other gear for things like battle unless you played a "I am not going to fight anything" type character.
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I think the system I mentioned before would be a useable middle ground between Es old system and a actual workable one.

You still get to level up your attributes ES style, but it isnt on a 100 scale and doesn't relay on the silly +1,+3,+5 system the old games used.

SajuukKhar:

Kahunaburger:
snip.

I can think of an easy fix.

When leveling up change the Magicka/Health/Fatigue options into INT/END/STR, then toss a "your INT/END/STR level is X" above your magicka/health/fatigue bars.

That way people get their attributes, which were never really gone, just renamed, back.

I mean that really is all magicka/HP/Fatigue in Skyrim are, renamed versions of INT/END/STR and to where the "you have put X number of level up points into said things" hidden.

I think that's a pretty elegant solution for dialogue checks, and combined with spell effects that do the same thing that could previously be done with the stat system would get the sort of emergent gameplay you can get with a stat system. But if they're doing all that, it does raise the question of it being simpler to just include a stat system and design it so that leveling doesn't completely screw it up.

SajuukKhar:

Yes but did you need that +enchant suit while in battle? probably not. A +enchant suit is really only useful while enchanting, I dont see how you couldn't have other gear for things like battle unless you played a "I am not going to fight anything" type character.

The benefit of the +Enchant suit is that it reduces the cost of magic item use to 1 point, which means that for all intents and purposes you can use them indefinitely. So you're definitely wearing it in combat so that your absurdly OP magic rings can be used to full effect.

SajuukKhar:
I think the system I mentioned before would be a useable middle ground between Es old system and a actual workable one.

You still get to level up your attributes ES style, but it isnt on a 100 scale and doesn't relay on the silly +1,+3,+5 system the old games used.

I can probably get behind that - although I'm generally for ability scores that stay more or less where they start in order to better differentiate characters, it makes sense for them to wind up maxed out if your character is The Nerevarine or The Dovahkiin or something similarly larger-than-life.

Well given that Bethesda failed multiple times to make an attribute system that didn't eventually break, it seems kinda hard.

It feels like, to me, that Skyrim was on the verge of having a good attribute system, and then they missed the one change that would have made it. All they would have had to do is rename a couple of things, slap a counter on the skills page, and add in some very slight affects, and it would be great, and opens up a ton of more things.
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Ahh I see why you would use a +enchant suit then.
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Well the only character you would play are Nerevarine/Dovahkiin types. I mean the entire premise of the series is that you are playing through prophecies foretold by the Elder Scrolls, and prophecies normally dont involve nobodies.

Definitely Oblivion. Skyrim definitely has better graphics, combat and levelling system, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the questlines are horrifically boring, not at all engaging, and all the God. Damn. Same! The Dark Brotherhood was atrocious, and not at all varied, and every other questline was so short.

Exploring a cave or killing a dragon was a great experience, but it was the same experience hour after hour, and call me crazy, but I miss the soul-penetrating eye contact! It gave the game a unqiue charm.

SajuukKhar:

FifthKeetle:
But it runs kinda slow even on new machines, I guess it's because Morrowind was not made to render huge distances. I still install the graphics mods, it makes the game much more playable, I guess I'm spoiled by modern graphics.

What I loved about Skyrim is that it was really much more the sequel to Morrowind that we wanted, not unlike Oblivion, which was like some game from other series which had Elder Scrolls glued on it. Skyrim's graphical style was more remniscent of Morrowind's, the plot was a little more complicated. I'm still saddened that Dark Elves didn't get their awesome voices back.

Morrowind runs great on new machines.......... I dont know what you talking about.

My opinion on Oblivion is the same as my opinion on Fallout 3. It is a game whose only relation to the series whose name it bears is just that, the name alone.

I was talking about Morrowind + graphical extensions, the FPS outdoors gets to teens for me and some of my friends who have high-end pc's.

Really no contest here.

Skyrim > Oblivion

I can go to a list, but that'll take ages. And it seems a lot of people already have these reasons covered.

The only thing Oblivion had and Skyrim didn't, was making custom spells. God damn I miss that.

Skyrim is a decent game in its own right, but absolutely pales in comparison to the masterpiece that is The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

The only thing Oblivion has over Skyrim is better quests and non linear dungeons. There's nothing as engaging as the Brotherhood quest but considering that was about the only part of Oblivion that I really enjoyed Skyrim still takes the prize.

I could barely play Oblivion, the leveling system was so disjointed that it really set my OCD off and I had to keep making new characters. My one problem with Skyrim is how they decided against having spells level along with you, I want to cast Illusion spells without having to wear special clothing or having to consume something.

FifthKeetle:
I was talking about Morrowind + graphical extensions, the FPS outdoors gets to teens for me and some of my friends who have high-end pc's.

I get 50-60 FPS constant even with graphics enhancers.

Anthraxus:
FFS, is he defending the beyond retarded ES mechanics again ?

considering how a lot of people have been saying they prefer Skyrim the mechanics are not as "retarded" as you try to make them out to be.

You are the worst, most close-minded, type of purist I have ever seen. I actually pity you.

SomeBritishDude:
The only thing Oblivion has over Skyrim is better quests and non linear dungeons. There's nothing as engaging as the Brotherhood quest but considering that was about the only part of Oblivion that I really enjoyed Skyrim still takes the prize.

I still dont get how Oblivion's DB quest was engaging in any way.

It was a random series of murders, then killing off the sanctuary, then another random series of murders, then you find out, with no previous hints, that you were killing the wrong people, then you kill the traitor. It was so disjointed and unconnected and the plot felt really shoe-horned in at the last minute.

Compared to Skyrim's connected "KILL THE EMPEROR" plot, Oblivion's BD just feels lack-luster as fuck.
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I have found that, IMO, in comparing Oblivion's to Skyrim's guilds that while Oblivion had longer guilds, and more content to them, the actual pay-off for doing them was terrible.

Manimarco, the Blackwood Company, and Mathieu Bellamont, all were such epic disappointments becuase of how weak they were.

Comparatively Skyrim's guilds are stupidly short, but I felt like I actually did something cool.

Freeing Kodlacks soul, fighting Accano using the Staff of Magnus, killing the Emperor, were such better payoffs after the stuff I went through.
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that actually kind of applies to my opinion on Skyrim Vs Oblivion as a whole
Oblivion - epic build-ups, terrible pay-offs.
Skyrim - terrible build-ups, great payoffs