I shall now say unkind things about Dark Souls. Pages 1 2 3 4 NEXT | |
You know the obvious solution to this is to do what I do and just not die. There is also generally you can unlock a shortcut to every single boss so you only need to kill a couple groups of enemies if you die. Oh and if you can see the walls/floor/view enough to complain about the looks you have the brightness set way to high. When you take all things into consideration though dark souls doesnt actually look bad. | |
This is gonna be interesting.
Then please for the love of god don't play Demon's Souls because that game was much worse in that regard. You see, at least in Dark Souls, it gives you alternate paths and shortcuts straight to the boss fights to help decrease the frustration. Also, you say it's tedious. I say it's a rather effective design decision that adds tension and forces to be at the top of your game. Is it frustrating as shit lose 30 minutes of progress because of one asshole undead soldier attacked from a cheap angle? Oh yes it most definitely is but I still understand the decision to design the checkpoint system the way it is.
I don't think that comparison is fair because you're comparing two games with extremely different visual and art designs. One is gritty medieval fantasy, the other is cell shaded middle-eastern. Both games greatly accomplish what set out to do with the tone with the combination of visual design. Journey's bright and colorful art design complements well the theme of companionship and introspection while Dark Souls' design complement the harshness, insanity and the isolation of the world it inhabits. Some of the textures in some places do look low resolution and poor. That I can't disagree with. Ok... that was a bit rambly... | |
:P I just thought the game was stupid from the git-go. I don't mind a game being so hard that it assures you that you'll die over and over again (i.e. Ninja Gaiden), but like you I found the game to be less "challenging" and more "quit slamming your cock in the door, you're scaring the children." Or as you put it, it becomes tedious. :P | |
Respawning trash is not an elegant method through which to add tension. It's just gratuitous time sinking. In fact, checkpoint systems in general are archaic game design, and I've never heard a single compelling argument to justify their existence once the technology limits were done away with. | |
You have some very valid points OP... however, I can't put the controller down for this game D: | |
Your not wrong about the "rinse and repeat" way of doing things. As much as I love the game, there are parts that make me want to rip my eyes eye simply due to horrible design choices (Stray Demon, Dragons legs). However, things are only tedious for you right now because... well... your bad. Once you finish the game, you will be running and slicing through these filler enemies like its nothing, infact, I doubt you will even bother to fight them at all since they are just fodder anyway. The combat has much greater depth to it than what you first see, and it is really unfortunate that the only time this really comes into play is PvP (which itself is horribly unbalanced).. The best fights in this game were not against huge giant telegraphing beasts, but against the man-sized enemies like yourself (Oscar of Astora is the best fight in the game IMO). Your not wrong at all Zhuk. This game is not for everyone. I myself have alot of gripes with the game, but I absolutely adore it. | |
God the fucking crap checkpoint placement almost singlehandedly ruined the game for me... I had to put the game down for about 5 months before I even got through the Parish Oh and you know the other massive problem? The fact that the world map is littered with high level areas literally one door away from Baby's First Dungeon. Beat the Blighttown boss? Great! Now don't get too curious about what's down that next corridor or you'll get instakilled by motherfucking Ceaseless Discharge and lose an unholy amount of souls! Wonder what's that two feet away from the Safe Zone? Instakilled by bullshit skeleton warriors. The map is fucked. Oh and I don't mind the challenge when it's actually fair. The people who say every death is fair are talking out of their collective assholes. Snipers. Anor Londo. Fuck! Though that first Mimic in Sen's Fortress was so random, so obviously going to kill you first time through and so hilarious I had to forgive the lovable scamp. Even if he did waste about 20 minutes of my time. By the way OP how far did you get? I'm surprised I even made it past Blighttown to be honest nevermind Anor Londo. So many bosses are actually kinda easy. The Gaping Dragon is just a failure in every single respect and that giant golem thing just before Anor Londo can't do shit if you just stay right under him and stab him in the dick multiple times. | |
I agree. I've shown I can do this stuff already, don't make me do it again. I'll lose focus and slip up eventually as I try to find a way to get past faster. Just let me get back to the boss fight. | |
Except in the case of dark souls its better then all of the alternatives. Since dying doesnt cause you to actually loose game progress like you know basically every other game out there the checkpoint system works best. | |
I am aware of the shortcuts and my Capra Demon example took them into account. My problem is with having to repeat a bunch of easy/moderate fights in order to take another swing at the interesting ones.
The game is effectively saying, "If this boss kills you, I will waste ten minutes of your time before letting you try again." It's just like having a long pre-boss unskippable cutscene. That doesn't make me tense due to a raising of the stakes. It just makes me want to head-butt the designer (unless he's a big chap, in which case I would content myself with yelling at him from a distance).
Not very far. I only got it recently and I haven't had much time with the game. I've cleared the Undead Burg and the Parish. Killed the demon on the wall, the bell tower gargoyles and the capra demon. Also, the various mini-bosses. The black knights, the boar, the knight in the chapel and the one-legged, limping lightening demon... thing. Also got the drake's tail off. I haven't gone downwards from the starting area yet and I haven't explored that green swampy area next to the parish. | |
I disagree on the graphics. While they are not the prettiest i do think that they do help create some wonderful atmosphere. But yeah, its an awfully overrated game. Even if it did kinda make me feel like i was playing "nethack current gen edition" but i just cant like it. Nethack is great shit btw. Play nethack. | |
You have missed a shortcut to the first bonfire. The game really rewards exploration in that way. I made the same mistake as you at first and did the run you decribe like twice. From the first bonfire you only have to kill 4 mobs to get to the demon two of which have their back to you. I took the approach that souls were just a by product of what I was doing and not to get so het up if I lost a few. Once you make yourself relax on that front it get's a bit more tolerable. I can tell you where the shortcut is if you want I just didn't want to ruin it for you outright. | |
Sounds like its not your kind of game. Fair enough, but you should have known what you were getting into :P And the graphics are fine, not the best but certainly not bad. AND i thought the enemies were pretty cool in design :P | |
haha that took me by surprise too. Luckily i found a glitch and killed it in two seconds :P | |
Yeah I really love the design of the game it's kind of fantasy mixed with photorealism and looks great. | |
The thing is in Dark Souls there is no such thing as high level areas. There is areas for those who are new at the game and areas for those who are more experienced. When your starting area is a central hub like it is in Dark Souls these areas will obviously connect to each other.
Though the walk to the Capra Demon is probably the longest once you get shortcuts opened up it just didnt seem that long. Once of the upsides of having to kill the trash is that you actually get better at the game while doing it. | |
It's okay, I think I know the one you mean. It goes past the lady selling moss, right? The loss of souls doesn't bother me at all. I actually think it's a cool mechanic and I rarely carry more than necessary.
"It's not your kind of game" is no excuse for bad design. Thing is, apart from the total lack of story, it's exactly my kind of game. | |
Yeah that's where I meant. You can get to it before you fight the demon. Actually I found out that it has a very deep story you just have to look for it. Different actions can determine the fate of different NPC's and there is also an entirely different ending to the game. It's probably more accurate to say it has 'lore' than storyline but it's definitely there. Stick to it bud I think you will grow to realise there is more to it as you progress as I did. :) There is a lot of trash and apparently they are even worse in NG+ (with damage not numbers of mobs) I am amongst those that thought taking all the trash mobs out of WOW end game kind of damaged it though so I'm not sure how to feel about it here. | |
Yeah i like how EVERYTHING looks evil. Which fits the story i made up for the game (since i was a bit lost on what as actually happening.) Am i on the right lines thinking your character is exploring hell? Everything wants to kill you, yet you cant die. And your "hollow". The idea fits i think. | |
i guess... But that would totally change how the game is. The levels are built AROUND the bonfires. With the various shortcuts etc. I havnt got too far either, and so far the bonfires have been in pretty good places. Theres usually one near (Or a shortcut) quite close to the boss. | |
Well it certainly does seem like hell haha. You are cursed with the darksign (which means you can't die and you will eventually go 'Hollow' which basically means the mindless undead that attack you.) These undead are reviled in the outside world (as they eventually will be very dangerous) and so they are locked up in the Undead Asylum at the 'end of the world'. You character escapes and learns of a prophecy which they then proceed to fulfill and the story basically takes off from there. | |
Ah, i see. I like my idea more though :) Exploring hell, collecting souls and humanity. All the non hostile people still being a bit mental... It all fits! | |
Yeah the story is pretty minimalistic so I don't think there much problem in interpreting how you want hehe. | |
If you need some assistance OP or need questions answered i'm willing to give advice just drop a PM and we can chat on ventrillo or back and forth PM's whichever you prefer. I recommend reading up on the dark souls wikispaces for strategies and a walkthrough if needed. The capra demon is tough in the beginning, but imagine the game getting worse and that is what will happen. | |
The point of the design was to make things fairly tedius, and to punish you for failing so to speak, if you can just rez and keep zerging the bosses it would become like any other game. To be honest a lot of the challenge of Dark Souls is simply the frustration, and that you tend to make mistakes when you start to get annoyed. That said I really didn't play much of this one (I put more time in on a Friend's copy of Demon's Souls) the reason why is simply that I couldn't play as a mage anymore, since magic was too much of a finite resource... and well, my handle is "Therumancer" for a reason. That said, some of those bosses were intended so that if your not a really hard core player the best solution is to show in in a condition to summon other players. All of them can be beaten solo, but it's far easier with help. I will also say that I have mixed opinions about the entire "tough but fair" thing as I've felt that some of the sequences with dragons and such were anything but. Ditto for the way some of the fire bombers can spawn in places where you can't see them but they can attack you. If you die enough times you can anticipate all the possibilities, but I still think the game can be pretty bloody arbitrary, and that goes for both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls. | |
I agree with everything you said, and still adore the game and it still remains my 2011 Game of the Year. God damn, once you become skilled at that game it's legitimately difficult to put down the controller. | |
I preferred the atmosphere, and level design of Demons Souls much better. It felt more coherent to me, and less repetitive compared to Dark Souls. Plus Demons Souls, even with how difficult it was, it still felt beatable and fair. Dark Souls was far too hard for it's own good most of the time. | |
Nethack is great. And it's actually, genuinely hard. Not Dark Souls hard, where you can solve most of your problems by walking in circles with a shield before your face. I mean hard in a way of, most people can't even beat the game without doing the savegame duplicating trick hard. It's just that ridiculous. It's also huge. Really huge. For the rest, well, I love Dark Souls. I can understand where those who dislike it are coming from though. I too get annoyed by the amount of small, unimportant monsters that stand between me and a boss I died ten times already on (the Four Kings and Ornstein and Smough in particular are guilty of this), and the world as well as the enemies look dirty and gross. I rather like the looks of it. I feel like the way it looks is intentional, and well executed.
Running to the fog gate and then making it fall off the cliff is not a glitch, that's intentional. Unless you meant something else, then I'm curious to hear about it. On almost all my characters I've had quite a lot of trouble with it. Only on my witch it was really easy, because I could kill it in three hits by the time I got that far. | |
God, I hate that kind of game design. Halo CE was bad with this too (good otherwise, but the checkpoints... (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ ) Yahtzee had a good quote on the subject. "We know I'm awesome, stop MAKING ME PROVE IT!" | |
I actually have yet to play Dark Souls, to go off topic. I've kind of been on the fence about it. I think the emphasis on lore (a rather unique approach to narrative)and the atmosphere look really neat, and I'm always up for a good action-RPG, but I'm not terribly fond of high difficulty to begin with. I suppose I'll probably try it one of these days, but I'm not sure if I'm going to make it very far. xD | |
Yeah thats what i was talking about. It was intentional? That seems a bit weird... Actually, a lot of the bosses you can beat by making them fall off a cliff... | |
I actually agree with almost everything you say, except I simply find the game incredibly enjoyable. I notice the flaws - and there are quite a few - but they don't get in the way of the experience for me. | |
The Capra demon fight is the perfect example of everything I consider wrong with the game. Every other fight gives you time to see its moves or to learn from an ambush, the Capra Demon is mostly bullshit luck to live through the initial dog assault, unless you happen to have really high poise armor by this point in the game for some reason. In any other game I'd call the respawn system bad design and needless padding, but I can't do it here, because unfortunately I have made the mistake of being stupid on the internet and asking for something more 'retro' and unforgiving like a complete moron. So this means I basically agree with you, but can't throw stones because I asked for it, and through perseverance actually came to enjoy the design once it stopped kicking my ass. Also, point to the graphics, but I actually like the aesthetics. A bit of anti aliasing and resolution wouldn't hurt. The other story reason I like Dark Souls is it guilted me into being a good sister for a dying giant-spider-girl-demon. It was actually a really touching moment and the Ancient White Spider is probably one of my favorite characters ever. | |
I hate Dark Souls. Its a painful, repetive, ugly, DIAS game(Do it again stupid.) However, I guess its just a love it or hate game. The same things I despise are things others love. | |
| Pages 1 2 3 4 NEXT | |
First however, I shall say some nice things in a futile attempt to take the edge off the ensuing rage and accusations of casual-ness.
I like Dark Souls. Or rather, I really, really want to like it. It's an action-adventure game with RPG elements that forces me to use every one of the meagre resources at my disposal to beat it. It features a solid combat system that forces you to stay on your toes. It should be right up my ally.
However, I have one major problem with it. The developers somehow managed to confuse the notion of "providing a challenge" with "wasting my fucking time".
See, Dark Souls has two flavours of gameplay. First, there's your boss and mini-boss fights against unique enemies. These are fun and generally pretty hard, which is cool since that's exactly what was advertised.
Then there is... the rest. This consists of fighting respawning generic enemies while exploring the levels. These are not so hard. They can kill you if you don't pay attention but once you've got the combat figured out you'll be carving through them with relative ease. Hold down block, bait them into attacking, retaliate. Rinse and repeat.
The problem is that there are always a significant amount of the respawning filler enemies between the boss fights and the nearest checkpoint. So every time you die to a boss - and chances are this will happen a lot - you get to hack your way through an identical sequence of
mooks. Every. Fucking. Time.
Get killed by Capra Demon. Respawn. Cross bridge and fight four soldiers. (Yawn.) Go down stairs and fight three dogs. (Stretch.) Fight four thieves. (Wonder how long it's been since you cleaned the bathroom.) Fight three more thieves and two more dogs. (Yawn again.) Get to Capra Demon. (Finally!) Get killed by Capra Demon. Respawn. Cross bridge and fight four soldiers. (Yawn.) Go down stairs and fight three... yeah, you get the point.
This is not fun. It's tedious.
This is not a challenge. It's shit design.
This is not "hardcore". It's just cheap padding via poor checkpoint placement.
Hell, they might as well have just put ten minute unskippable cutscenes in front of all the bosses. At least that way I could mitigate the blatant waste of my time by making myself a sandwich or picking up a book.
My other complaint is that the game looks like... well, like crap. At first I thought this was just due to me being accustomed to glorious 2550x1440 PC graphics, but then Journey came along and showed me that console games can look gorgeous too. Dark Souls just has bad visual design. Grey-green sludgy environments populated by nondescript grey-green enemies. Even the backgrounds are bad. I fear I might sneer myself inside-out the next time I find a message saying "lovely view" in front of a blurry green carpet masquerading as a forest underneath some blurry grey clouds.
So that's my Dark Souls experience. I want to get along with it, but it's ugly and seems to take great pleasure in wasting my time. It's like an ex-girlfriend in video game form.