I think that games like Minecraft and Terraria do what the wRPG excels at, better than wRPGs.

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There is no way on earth I could swap

with...

I played with Lego as a kid and that's the only time I ever will.

Minecraft may be fun for some but it looks awful and bored the ever living arse off me.

I play a game to have a world already created for me to mess around in and characters to interact with. I don't play a game to fanny around with hideous square blocks.

Plus I like modding my Elder Scrolls games ... and making shiny swords.

They may be good with interactivity, but you trade the context and complexity.

LilithSlave:
I'd never heard of stories as a big part of the wRPG.

In that case you haven't been looking well enough. Go back about a decade or so in gaming history, then you'll see where I'm coming from.

That, and there's more to the word story than just the main quest of a game. It's about the fact that it's a big, breathing world with tons of little stories to discover. That's what we, or at least I, mean with exploration being important in wRPG's and why it doesn't match up with Minecraft; to discover tons of different adventures. You stumble upon a cave containing a trapped demi-god, a small village besieged by a nefarious baron, or even just a woman who's necklace has been stolen. That sort of thing.

Last but not definitely not least, it's also about your own story. The one you create with your character. What sort of choices you make in the world, how you handle all kinds of different situations, how you interact with all the world's inhabitants (and how they react to you) and how you make your own unique footprint on the presented world. Do you protect the villagers against the baron, or do you take up his offer to triple your pay and kill the resistance leader? Do you return the woman's necklace, or fence it? Etc etc etc.

And Minecraft? That's 'just' virtual Lego's. Well done and unique, but in no way an RPG. I can see where you're coming from, yes, because in Minecraft you too create your own unique footprint on a world, but it has nothing to do with your actual character, with being remembered in the ingame universe, carving your own story in the history of the game's universe. Minecraft grants you a canvas and tools, and you can go hogwild. That's a completely different thing.

I thought this was a troll thread when I heard that, "Stories aren't a big part of WRPGs." Then again it seems like the OP is a Broooonieeee so something isn't just quite right up thar in de noggin.

Abandon4093:
Why didn't I just check who wrote the thread? I could probably have saved all them brain cells.

Alas poor cells, I hardly knew yee.

I have to quote this for truth, every time I see a thread by the OP I think "oh god not another thread by this guy, I really should just close my browser and walk away " and somehow I end up reading a page and the mental gymnastics that this guy does just blows my mind.

Which is what WRPGs are known for. Freedom in character, not environment.

This is false, unless your argument is that the number of wRPGs is tiny. Most wRPGs do not have the things you claim "WRPGs" are "known for".

A deep dialogue system isn't part of WRPGs. It's just recently been popular again to have games like this. But overall, most WRPGs lack these systems.

In fact, the dialogue system in most wRPGs isn't deep, it's "deep". Take dragon age 2 as a good example of the lack of depth but huge amount of pretendy-depth that wasn't there - your decisions meant nothing, and you might as well have decided your answers at random for the exact same end result.

This is the opposite of depth. The only difference to a JRPG in dialogue system is that games like this pretend to give you choices. It's like having a JRPG, then adding a random choice in a dialogue that will then be totally ignored.

What you do in Minecraft and Terraria is, well, mining. Searching for resources. You aren't trying to find cities or artifacts or lore, just more building blocks.

Uh...nope. I wonder if you ever played minecraft. The major appeal of user-created worlds is exploring the other cities, structures, and whatnot.

I've spent hours in minecraft without using my pick once. Just exploring.
Just like I did in Skyrim.

I thought this was a troll thread when I heard that, "Stories aren't a big part of WRPGs."

That's not trolling, that's a fact. Or are you seriously arguing that Might&Magic VI or Eye of the Beholder are known for their story?

In fact, it's JRPGs that have story as a big part of the game, wRPGS usually don't have story as a big part at all.

Minecraft and Terraria as RPGs? No.
i've played both of them and they hardly have anything that you would see in an RPG

zefiris:

What you do in Minecraft and Terraria is, well, mining. Searching for resources. You aren't trying to find cities or artifacts or lore, just more building blocks.

Uh...nope. I wonder if you ever played minecraft. The major appeal of user-created worlds is exploring the other cities, structures, and whatnot.

I've spent hours in minecraft [i]without using my pick once. Just exploring.
Just like I did in Skyrim.

Which makes me think that a procedurally generated voxel-based exploration game that's pretty to look at and has interesting procedural content (along the lines of Dwarf Fortress, some Minecraft structure mods, or some of the stuff in development for CultRL) would blow TES out of the water as a hiking sim. Also, depending on the character creation and combat systems, as a WRPG, but that's not exactly hard.

zefiris:

In fact, it's JRPGs that have story as a big part of the game, wRPGS usually don't have story as a big part at all.

Depends on the WRPG. The kind that is trying to follow in the footsteps of stuff like Planescape: Torment and Fallout certainly does, and when done well is not something that could easily be mistaken for a JRPG style of storytelling.

LilithSlave:
Apparently I'm supposed to quote the person directly above me. Even thought that's gotten me warned at several sites and things. So inconsistent, internet. So inconsistent.

Djinn8:
Unless you use the Creation Kit to alter what ever you wish. Wouldn't that be a more fair comparison: construction kit vs construction kit?

I would call playing Minecraft anything like a construction kit.

A construction kit isn't a game. Minecraft is. And being able to do things like build houses and plant crops is under explored in games. I don't know what you're getting at, but I'd say that Minecraft probably has more in common with Harvest Moon than an Elder Scrolls construction kit.

Actually, it's pretty much a user friendly, fun construction kit.

LilithSlave:

Hero in a half shell:
How much have you explored in Skyrim? It's freaking beautiful!

None, it's 60 whole dollars still, and I'm a jRPG person. There's no way I'm going to shell out that kind of money when I have jRPGs to buy.

I was going off of the trailers and advertisements and things. Other random footage, and my experiences with Oblivion.

Some people are biased against JRPGs, just like you're biased against WRPGs. Some people just don't like some types of games, it's solely personal taste.

LilithSlave:

I'd never heard of stories as a big part of the wRPG. In fact I know of several wRPG fan who hate jRPGs because they "don't want to put up with a stupid story". Given the fights I've seen between jRPG and wRPG fans, I thought that most wRPG fans hated storytelling in video games and just wanted a sandbox to goof off in. It's usually some jRPG fan saying they like jRPG because they like stories in games before getting a collective smackdown about how narrative is ruining games and why jRPGs suck so hard. At least that's been my past experiences.

That's because you talked to fucking morons, and decided to get your information from them.

zefiris:

Which is what WRPGs are known for. Freedom in character, not environment.

This is false, unless your argument is that the number of wRPGs is tiny. Most wRPGs do not have the things you claim "WRPGs" are "known for".

A deep dialogue system isn't part of WRPGs. It's just recently been popular again to have games like this. But overall, most WRPGs lack these systems.

In fact, the dialogue system in most wRPGs isn't deep, it's "deep". Take dragon age 2 as a good example of the lack of depth but huge amount of pretendy-depth that wasn't there - your decisions meant nothing, and you might as well have decided your answers at random for the exact same end result.

This is the opposite of depth. The only difference to a JRPG in dialogue system is that games like this pretend to give you choices. It's like having a JRPG, then adding a random choice in a dialogue that will then be totally ignored.

Except Dialogue isn't the sole provider of Character Freedom - just look at Borderlands, a Western RPG that has no character dialogue or moral choice systems. These systems help expand upon the freedom of character, yes, but it's not what defines it. Freedom of Character means you get to customize that character to suit your playstyle, often with Talent points, armor, appearance, stats, etc. tailoring them to how you ultimately want to play the game. This is a common trait in Western RPGs - most JRPGs (Stress the most here) have very linear characters due to the focus on story.

Minecraft and Terraria aren't WRPGs in this sense - while there is plenty of exploration, there is barely (if any) character freedom, as there aren't any stats or customizations to tailor the character to your style. Terraria does have more of the 'Character Freedom' Elements then Minecraft, however, though this still doesn't classify it as a full WRPG - it just has RPG elements, being more of an 'Action-Adventure/RPG' then a straight up WRPG (Man, Genre's are annoying to define with everyone mixing and matching the various components - I think we need to define 'WRPG, RPG and JRPG' sometime soon, help clear up the confusion.)

For something to be better than an RPG, it must first be an RPG itself.

There's no such thing as a WRPG for starters...

Mainstream sandbox RPGs will never be true sandbox because publishers want brainless plebs to be able to play the game and enjoy it.

Ugh, reading this thread, I realize how many people think that WRPG = The Elder Scrolls. That's depressing.

I can sort of see what the OP is getting at, but I think it's coming from a flawed perspective of what WRPGs, particularly in the Elder Scrolls vein, bring to the table. I think it can be summed up as simply as motivation.

In something like Minecraft there is certainly customization and exploration, but the motivation to do so is just simply to look around and play with the world. To have undefinable limits on what you can do in the world would hurt the experience. In something like Skyrim, however, all of the various aspects of the game outside of the exploration are used to motivate the player to want to explore. Things like story (even if minimal), setting, lore, combat, item collection, character growth and customization, notable impact on the game world, etc. all exist to fuel the player's desire to experience the world. The structure of not necessarily being able to change everything because some things are set in stone is an important limitation that fuels the rest of the design. If you could simply move Whiterun or rebuild the way it looks, you would be undermining the entire structure of the game.

With Minecraft, the goal is to explore. With Skyrim, the exploration is just part of the experience.

So, RPGs are about characters and story?

image

No wait! RPGs are about tactical combat!

image

image

No wait! RPGs are about a levelling system!

image

Look. It's not that easy, and the fact that it isn't is the big strength of wRPGs, because unlike jRPGs which still seem to be stuck (to a large extent, not saying they all do it) in menu combat and random encounters it means that wRPGs can be just about any sort of game and appeal to any sort of person.

If some grognard had decided that a game which wasn't all about fighting through a single dungeon and killing monsters couldn't be an RPG, we'd have missed out on most of the best RPGs of all time.

On topic

Firstly, I think a lot of so-called "new wave" PC games do work in the same part of the brain which enjoys RPGs. Developing a character in an RPG and developing a fortress in dwarf fortress are a similar kind of enjoyment. The feeling of watching something grow is satisfying. Whether that makes them RPGs is another matter.

Secondly, I think procedural generation driving open ended experiences are very huge way forward for RPGs, and long term I hope it's going to take off. Imagine if Skyrim could spontaneously generate worlds as intricate as those in the recent incarnations of Dwarf Fortress. Imagine if game worlds could develop and change in realtime. This is kind of stuff which Peter Molyneux would have to change his underwear for.

The fact that a lot of these games look like arse right now shouldn't detract from the fact that mechanically they're still pushing the boundaries, and other games (and I think RPGs in particular) could stand to benefit from that.

Well there's no question that they do some things better than RPGs, that's what makes them a distinct (and successful) genre in the first place.

I've never been about exploration and "UNLIMITED INTERACTION" in RPGs though. I play them because they are a slower-paced game experience that has time to elaborate a story in greater detail, and have mechanics that make them attractive by the number of ways you could approach a situation or the game itself. They're closer to books than standard action games, and have elements of preplanning and strategy.

Funny thread though, with the number of people insulting the OP for daring to say something against their sacred fucking cow.

I think they do multiplayer better than any MMO from the last 5 years.

Ehhh...I guess that's true if you're really into exploration. But exploration is at the bottom of my list of "want list" for RPGs. I prefer focus. Not that some exploration is bad, but I'd rather it not be the core of the game.

LilithSlave:

Abandon4093:
Then simply put, shush!

People aren't allowed to mention their initial impressions?

I never said I knew what Skyrim was like exactly. I made qualifiers like "if it is like Oblivion".

You're talking shit (completely inaccurate shit) about a game you haven't even played.

Please do not try to mentally gymnastasise your way out of that. Qualifiers or not, you made a ludicrously sweeping generalisation about an entire genre of games because you don't particularly like them.

Just stop, move away from the keyboard and do something more productive with your life.

I actually can't believe you made me defend a game I don't even like.

I think that games like Minecraft and Terraria do what video games do better than video games. People say that Minecraft isn't "really" a video game because it has no goals, but it's actually, in my mind, the very definition of a video game: a collection of simple, easily understood systems and mechanics that combine to form depth and achieve a purpose.

WRPGS are defined by choice and individuality, just as western culture is. Minecraft exemplifies this concept far better than any other game, including RPGs. It's all about introspection and personal achievement: you're all alone in the world, and you can create anything you could ever imagine. The only way to create a system of "free choice" is not an implementation of binary good/evil decisions that WRPGs are so fond of, but real freeform gameplay.

LilithSlave:

Hero in a half shell:
How much have you explored in Skyrim? It's freaking beautiful!

None, it's 60 whole dollars still, and I'm a jRPG person. There's no way I'm going to shell out that kind of money when I have jRPGs to buy.

I was going off of the trailers and advertisements and things. Other random footage, and my experiences with Oblivion.

Oh, so you're actually a misinformed person and just created a topic without any knowledge of what you're talking about? Good to know this is actually a troll topic, I was about to take it seriously.

ablac:
So the finest example of idiocy has created another topic. Wrpg's are about exploration and the player being the protagonist rather than merely controlling him/her. That s how I view things at least. Jrpgs seem to be more about characters and story with a higher emphasis on stat based combat and progression than Wrpgs which have a fusion of real time combat and character progression.Both are about characetr progression and tend to focus onn story a fair amount. Minecraft is about building, it is randomly generated and so is not about exploration of THE world per se but of your world whereas western rpgs give you a rich detailed world to explore rather than making a basic one out of blocks using a random algorithm. The same goes for terraria though that has character progression in a basic form. Wrpgs are not about building which is where this thread is wrong. Im surprised Lilithslave by your consistent and moronic approach to absolutely everything.

Cuz ad hominem is the best argument. Keep it classy you fine internet peoples.

OT: You're kinda comparing apples to oranges Lilith. Rpgs if all kinds specify on character development to a degree and a story of some kind to where there is an end goal. Terraria and Mimecraft kinda flop on both of these counts and kinda nullifies them from being comparable to them. Even Harvest Moon had an end goal of wooing the girl and raising a family.

Is it that trolling time of the month again... how about you just come out and say "JRPGs rule WRPGs suck, flame on!"

Yes Minecraft and Terratia do the sandbox better then wRPGs, or any other game for that matter, because they are the ultimate sandbox games.

Doopliss64:
I think that games like Minecraft and Terraria do what video games do better than video games. People say that Minecraft isn't "really" a video game because it has no goals, but it's actually, in my mind, the very definition of a video game: a collection of simple, easily understood systems and mechanics that combine to form depth and achieve a purpose.

WRPGS are defined by choice and individuality, just as western culture is. Minecraft exemplifies this concept far better than any other game, including RPGs. It's all about introspection and personal achievement: you're all alone in the world, and you can create anything you could ever imagine. The only way to create a system of "free choice" is not an implementation of binary good/evil decisions that WRPGs are so fond of, but real freeform gameplay.

But does Minecraft actually let you make interesting choices or give your choices interesting consequences? It's a great sandbox, and IMO is a much better sandbox than Oblivion and Skyrim. But you're not going to ever run into a situation in Minecraft where (say) you discover a fatal flaw in the villain's plans, point it out to him, and convince him that his best option is to kill himself, because there's no plotting villain, plans to discover, story, or dialogue.

The_Blue_Rider:
I actually think the whole WRPG and JRPG thing is stupid, just because something is made in a certain area of the world does not determine its genre, for instance Demon's and Dark Souls are made in Japan, so why arent they called JRPG's?

They're not stupid ways of categorizing them, you just don't understand it. JRPG's are called JRPG's because of how their combat and story telling works. Dark Souls is a lot more similar to the way WRPG's deal with things. Therefore it's a WRPG.

The reason wRPG's aren't quite as free-roaming as Minecraft or Terraria, is because they are bound by their narrative.

Minecraft I'd disagree. Minecraft has nothing to discover.

Terraria on the other hand is actually a western RPG through and through and thanks to the interactivity with the world, possibilities of fanmade content and shit you yourself can build it offers more in terms of discovery during the first playthroughs as Skyrim.

Yes because its not as if the core engagement of "exploration" can be fulfilled in multiple ways. If you think "do anything" is the be-all-end-all of exploration then your putting an artificial constraint on it if you're arguing that its most important just because people use that term a lot then you fail to realize people are stupid and often have no idea why they like a game. Case in point, better sound in games often makes people think the game has better graphics. Make your own story sort if games fill the core engagement of exploration in one way but its not the only way and its certainly not there "best" way because there is no best way.

LilithSlave:

hazabaza1:
Plus, the tactical statistic based combat in Minecraft is really engrossing.

Wait, since when are wRPGs known for combat? Actually, isn't it Bioware and Bioware fans that are arguing that Dungeons and Dragons derived stats are irrelevant to what makes a game an "RPG" or at least a "wRPG", but instead, options?

Terraria and Minecraft as a sandbox give you a million times more options than a wRPG sandbox like The Elder Scrolls.

You're saying there's more to RPGs than combat; He's saying there's more to RPGs than a big sandbox.

You're just focusing on one aspect of an RPG to the detriment of others. In Minecraft, you play the role of a miner/craftsman and you have "a million [..] options" for what to mine and what to craft. It seems that's what makes a great RPG for you and that's awesome. That's not how it works for most people though.

End of line.

WRPGs are about player-defined protagonists, and typically have a large focus on the impact of players actions and branching dialogue, and at least a rudimentary focus on statistic, inventroy, and appearance customization. Often they will have some form of morality, karma, or reputation system, many will have multiple endings based on your actions throughout the game, and lacking that, will offer some sort of last-minute choice to get multiple endings (Bioware does this a lot). Most of the earlier WRPGS were turn based tactical affairs focusing on maneuvering and positioning your characters correctly. These are general trends, and some games, like those created by Bethesda, tend not to adhere as closely to the model. The core essense of the WRPG remains the player-defined protagonist, and player driven consequences on the world or plot through branching decisions, through sidequests or decisions in the main plot.

However, a lot of people seem to be confusing games from other genres with the WRPG genre. Nethack/Rogue etc are not wrpgs, they are roguelikes, and have negligible branching decisions and little in the way of plot or pc-npc interaction (that isn't on the end of a sword), and generally lack in the ability of the player to impact the world in anything other than a linear way. Champions of Norrath and Dark Alliance are similarly not wrpgs because of a lack of branching dialogue or endings-everything must be completeted in a linear manner with no real player controlled definition of the characters motives. Minecraft isn't even an rpg, becasue it lacks any sort of npc interaction, plot, or even dialogue. This does not exclude peopel form roleplaying within minecraft, but the game is not an rpg.

The difference between wrpg and jrpgs IMO would boild down to player choice vs character choice. Most of the choices in jrpgs are made by characters, whiel mst decisions made in wrpgs are made consciously by the player. Of course there si some fluidity in this regard, but generally, wrpgs that take too much choice out of the hands of the palyer face the criticism of being labled 'railroading' wheras in jrpgs this storytelling choice is crucial to the game-creating tight plots and well defiend party members with personalities of their own, wheras wrpgs run the risk of making it feel like the PC is the only person of importance in the game, with other characters having no real will of their own.

SaikyoKid:

ablac:
So the finest example of idiocy has created another topic. Wrpg's are about exploration and the player being the protagonist rather than merely controlling him/her. That s how I view things at least. Jrpgs seem to be more about characters and story with a higher emphasis on stat based combat and progression than Wrpgs which have a fusion of real time combat and character progression.Both are about characetr progression and tend to focus onn story a fair amount. Minecraft is about building, it is randomly generated and so is not about exploration of THE world per se but of your world whereas western rpgs give you a rich detailed world to explore rather than making a basic one out of blocks using a random algorithm. The same goes for terraria though that has character progression in a basic form. Wrpgs are not about building which is where this thread is wrong. Im surprised Lilithslave by your consistent and moronic approach to absolutely everything.

Cuz ad hominem is the best argument. Keep it classy you fine internet peoples.

OT: You're kinda comparing apples to oranges Lilith. Rpgs if all kinds specify on character development to a degree and a story of some kind to where there is an end goal. Terraria and Mimecraft kinda flop on both of these counts and kinda nullifies them from being comparable to them. Even Harvest Moon had an end goal of wooing the girl and raising a family.

This sint ad hominem, im not attacking her because its her im attcking her because what she has said here is stupid and whenever ive seen her post/make a topic it is always made of insane ignorance and stupidity coupled with arrogance. She pisses me off normally and I was pretty pissed of when I wrote that with other things. Maybe I shouldnt have said what I said but what I said was true.

Kahunaburger:

Doopliss64:
I think that games like Minecraft and Terraria do what video games do better than video games. People say that Minecraft isn't "really" a video game because it has no goals, but it's actually, in my mind, the very definition of a video game: a collection of simple, easily understood systems and mechanics that combine to form depth and achieve a purpose.

WRPGS are defined by choice and individuality, just as western culture is. Minecraft exemplifies this concept far better than any other game, including RPGs. It's all about introspection and personal achievement: you're all alone in the world, and you can create anything you could ever imagine. The only way to create a system of "free choice" is not an implementation of binary good/evil decisions that WRPGs are so fond of, but real freeform gameplay.

But does Minecraft actually let you make interesting choices or give your choices interesting consequences? It's a great sandbox, and IMO is a much better sandbox than Oblivion and Skyrim. But you're not going to ever run into a situation in Minecraft where (say) you discover a fatal flaw in the villain's plans, point it out to him, and convince him that his best option is to kill himself, because there's no plotting villain, plans to discover, story, or dialogue.

Eh... Fallout reference? Yeah, I suppose it might be taken for granted at this point, but games like Fallout are exceptions in the genre, not the rule. The reason why games like Fallout are so highly revered is because of their exceptional presence, not because they define the genre.

In fact, merely fitting in with a genre will most likely garner overwhelming "MEH" from the gaming community.

As for the concept of Choice in wRPGs, what kind of choice are we talking about? Superficial ones like what armour to wear, what hairstyle you like or what eye colour you want? Practical ones like what's my DPS or DAM, how much HP do I want and is my DR or DT high enough? Or are we talking about narrative choices, like what path do we take, who do we side with, what moral standpoint to I follow? Maybe you meant geographical choices like where to go first, do I follow the path myself or fast travel/auto travel? You might also be talking about risk and reward choices, like do I pump my stats with these chems/potions to beat that tough baddy for the potential loot he is guarding or do you save it for an unavoidable encounter down the line?

Put simply, are the choices you revere so much Superficial, practical, narrative, tactical, geographical or moral? Because none of these are Standard in the RPG genre, and few games put a emphasis on them all. At most the average RPG will just focus on some core aspects and make secondary attempts for the others.

So, to get to my point... I think you should be promoting more games like Fallout and not defending a loosely defined genre based around your own ideal of what defines it. It's pointless as you will also find people who disagree and no one will back down on their assumption of what makes an RPG (evident by fucking ass load of topics we get on this site alone).

Fat_Hippo:
Ugh, reading this thread, I realize how many people think that WRPG = The Elder Scrolls. That's depressing.

Ugh, reading this thread, it reaffirms my previous assumption that people on this site talk out of their arse, based solely on narrow preconceptions and an inability to attain perspective.

evilthecat:
So, RPGs are about characters and story?

image

No wait! RPGs are about tactical combat!

image

image

No wait! RPGs are about a levelling system!

image

Look. It's not that easy, and the fact that it isn't is the big strength of wRPGs, because unlike jRPGs which still seem to be stuck (to a large extent, not saying they all do it) in menu combat and random encounters it means that wRPGs can be just about any sort of game and appeal to any sort of person.

If some grognard had decided that a game which wasn't all about fighting through a single dungeon and killing monsters couldn't be an RPG, we'd have missed out on most of the best RPGs of all time.

This... this is sense. This is someone who at least stood back and looked at whole genre and realised "Hey! Turns out, the RPG is a FUCKING BROAD GENRE". Why does it matter what makes an RPG? Are you such a hardcore RPG fan that you can't accept that no RPG is specifically tailored to your tastes?

Is it also hard for people to realise that your favourite game/movie/song/comic of a specific genre is not the archetype for the rest of the genre.

ablac:

SaikyoKid:

ablac:
So the finest example of idiocy has created another topic. Wrpg's are about exploration and the player being the protagonist rather than merely controlling him/her. That s how I view things at least. Jrpgs seem to be more about characters and story with a higher emphasis on stat based combat and progression than Wrpgs which have a fusion of real time combat and character progression.Both are about characetr progression and tend to focus onn story a fair amount. Minecraft is about building, it is randomly generated and so is not about exploration of THE world per se but of your world whereas western rpgs give you a rich detailed world to explore rather than making a basic one out of blocks using a random algorithm. The same goes for terraria though that has character progression in a basic form. Wrpgs are not about building which is where this thread is wrong. Im surprised Lilithslave by your consistent and moronic approach to absolutely everything.

Cuz ad hominem is the best argument. Keep it classy you fine internet peoples.

OT: You're kinda comparing apples to oranges Lilith. Rpgs if all kinds specify on character development to a degree and a story of some kind to where there is an end goal. Terraria and Mimecraft kinda flop on both of these counts and kinda nullifies them from being comparable to them. Even Harvest Moon had an end goal of wooing the girl and raising a family.

This sint ad hominem, im not attacking her because its her im attcking her because what she has said here is stupid and whenever ive seen her post/make a topic it is always made of insane ignorance and stupidity coupled with arrogance. She pisses me off normally and I was pretty pissed of when I wrote that with other things. Maybe I shouldnt have said what I said but what I said was true.

Umm, I think there's actually a specific kind of hominem called abusive that this is coming really, really close to. Sorry if I seemed to have called yours our specifically, but the first page was pretty much full of it and yours were getting pretty vicious there. It was just kinda irking me to see attitudes like that.

Don't wish to really throw the topic off with my pedantics though, as silly as it may or may not be. So I give you a tip of my hat and a good day to you good sir.

SaikyoKid:

ablac:

SaikyoKid:

Cuz ad hominem is the best argument. Keep it classy you fine internet peoples.

OT: You're kinda comparing apples to oranges Lilith. Rpgs if all kinds specify on character development to a degree and a story of some kind to where there is an end goal. Terraria and Mimecraft kinda flop on both of these counts and kinda nullifies them from being comparable to them. Even Harvest Moon had an end goal of wooing the girl and raising a family.

This sint ad hominem, im not attacking her because its her im attcking her because what she has said here is stupid and whenever ive seen her post/make a topic it is always made of insane ignorance and stupidity coupled with arrogance. She pisses me off normally and I was pretty pissed of when I wrote that with other things. Maybe I shouldnt have said what I said but what I said was true.

Umm, I think there's actually a specific kind of hominem called abusive that this is coming really, really close to. Sorry if I seemed to have called yours our specifically, but the first page was pretty much full of it and yours were getting pretty vicious there. It was just kinda irking me to see attitudes like that.

Don't wish to really throw the topic off with my pedantics though, as silly as it may or may not be. So I give you a tip of my hat and a good day to you good sir.

Your right it was unjistified.

Ragsnstitches:

Kahunaburger:

Doopliss64:
I think that games like Minecraft and Terraria do what video games do better than video games. People say that Minecraft isn't "really" a video game because it has no goals, but it's actually, in my mind, the very definition of a video game: a collection of simple, easily understood systems and mechanics that combine to form depth and achieve a purpose.

WRPGS are defined by choice and individuality, just as western culture is. Minecraft exemplifies this concept far better than any other game, including RPGs. It's all about introspection and personal achievement: you're all alone in the world, and you can create anything you could ever imagine. The only way to create a system of "free choice" is not an implementation of binary good/evil decisions that WRPGs are so fond of, but real freeform gameplay.

But does Minecraft actually let you make interesting choices or give your choices interesting consequences? It's a great sandbox, and IMO is a much better sandbox than Oblivion and Skyrim. But you're not going to ever run into a situation in Minecraft where (say) you discover a fatal flaw in the villain's plans, point it out to him, and convince him that his best option is to kill himself, because there's no plotting villain, plans to discover, story, or dialogue.

Eh... Fallout reference? Yeah, I suppose it might be taken for granted at this point, but games like Fallout are exceptions in the genre, not the rule. The reason why games like Fallout are so highly revered is because of their exceptional presence, not because they define the genre.

Is the fantasy literature genre defined by stuff like R.A. Salvatore Needs To Get Paid, Son 5: the Quest For More Money, or by stuff like Lord of the Rings? In other words, what caliber of fantasy novel gets imitated?

Ragsnstitches:

So, to get to my point... I think you should be promoting more games like Fallout and not defending a loosely defined genre based around your own ideal of what defines it. It's pointless as you will also find people who disagree and no one will back down on their assumption of what makes an RPG (evident by fucking ass load of topics we get on this site alone).

Did I say that RPGs are defined by their similarities to Fallout? No, I said that voxel-based (or in Terraria's case, tile-based), procedurally generated sandbox games, while IMO are better at exploration gameplay than Oblivion/Skyrim, don't do "what the WRPG excels at better than WRPGs," because the WRPG is a pretty broad sub-genre that does several things very well, many of which have nothing to do with exploration.

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