However, "eliminating the grind" leaves us with a minor problem: you eliminate the game.
I say that if a game is based on grind, it is deeply, fundamentally flawed and not worth playing, or its merits worth defending.
Why? Because it fails to answer one important question:
"What is the purpose of a game if it's designed to systematically bore you?"
This is the one question I have NEVER received a satisfactory answer for. When I finish grinding, I ultimately feel cheated. Cheated of time I could have spent doing anything better; a game that's more interesting and fun.
As for implementation: Grind as an option? Eh, that's pushing it, but as long as there's a way to reward player skill FIRST, then it's perfectly tolerable.
But grind as a REQUIREMENT? Indefensible. People say that games have no purpose but to waste time; I say why merely waste time? Why not challenge yourself or otherwise just have FUN with your spare time?
Why turn gaming into another mundane, boring job?
The entire concept of item upgrades in RPG's is a variation on the basic theme of "put in effort, get rewarded".
Yeah? And there are plenty of other games that reward the player without forcing them to grind AT ALL. Legend of Grimrock just came out and it does precisely that.
Going beyond static item placement:
Nethack has COMPLETE item randomization, yet it does not require the player to grind at all in order to win (there are methods that involve grinding, but none of them are required, nor optimal). A bit of luck will go a ways, but it never overtakes the necessity for planning and good decision making.
The challenge for developers is therefore not to eliminate that grind, but to make it enjoyable, and let it be appropriately rewarded.
Tolerating a problem does not solve it. Mitigation of grind may treat the symptoms, but it doesn't fix the problem.
In the end the general idea of a real money AH isn't bad - goldfarmers have proven time and again there is substantial demand for it by players who'd apparently rather spend money than effort. Balance, however, is everything. If never spending real money on AH items ceases being anything less than perfectly viable, then they'll have screwed the pooch.
Blizzard basically controls the grind-dial. I still argue that "balance" for viability doesn't really exist when it's so strongly based on luck.
Adjudicator: Because making drugs illegal has done so much to make the problem go away.
The situation is in fact analogous. Any activity like this, whether drugs or prostitution or RMT, is MUCH better off out in the open and directly regulated, instead of left to the shadows and black market. That is what DIRECTLY leads to hacking, theft, scams and dupes- just like illegal drugs leads to crime rings, robberies, and gang violence.
Also, Blizzard now has a direct incentive to regulate the economy so that it works and is rewarding for players - otherwise they have a dead economy and no fees. If the game isn't fun to play in the long term, they will lose their revenue stream.
Drugs aren't a problem in the first place; the war on drugs you're referencing is based on a completely manufactured issue, just like the prohibition, except by a different group of interests.
It's not analogous, and you didn't read what I said.
The only direct incentive Blizzard has now is to encourage more people to use dollars to buy phat lewt. Where you picked up on the dead economy and no fees thing is beyond me. As if without real money in the equation, an economy can't be sustained and the game can't be fun in the long run for some reason.
Elamdri: 1: I don't think that having money in the game is going to negatively impact the economy. In fact, I think it will make things easier in terms of pricing. Here is what will inevitably happen: People are going to come to an agreement on how much Gold = $1, because afterall, you are going to be able to sell Gold on the RMAH. Once you have figured out how much gold translates to $1, from there pricing is going to be really easy. If an item sells high on the RMAH, but low on the Gold AH, buy it and sell it on the RMAH. If the inverse is true, buy the item on the RMAH, sell it high on the Gold AH and them resell the Gold on the RMAH at standard price to recoup your loss. Because of this, prices are going to be pretty standard between the RMAH and the Gold AH.
Not a matter of opinion. Having two sets of currency in this sort of setup instead of one will invariably devalue both of them. Gold will have less buying power. That was my point and it's irrelevant whether later on there will be a standard or not.
2: Well, my big thing there is so what? I've never been in the "Gold selling is wrong" camp. I mean, what does it matter to me if someone wants to spend a ton of their cash buying gear? I'm not even trying to turn this into an ethical issue. If somewhere out there a chinese prison is ordering 10,000 copies of Diablo 3, eh, well sucks to be them I guess.
Not trying to turn it into a moral issue. My point was that the thing most people pretend to care about about will be encouraged, ergo, the repercussions on the game's economy will be increased, not decreased.
3: To me the RMAH isn't an incentive to play. Mostly because I don't really think that people are going to be making a lot of money off of it. I suppose it's possible, but I'm not sure. What I do think will happen however is that there are going to be some people who see this as a good way to fund their WoW addiction, which is cool for them I guess. What I think this is however is just a different way for people to gear out their character if they choose to do so. I mean, hell, pretty soon I'm going to be working a hell of a lot more hours but for much higher pay. For someone in that situation, you have to look at the cost-benefit. How much money do you make in an hour? How long will it take you to get an item? Is it worth it to spend hours grinding to get something when you could just buy it?
I mean right now for me, if something was listed up there for like 20 bucks and it took hours to get, it wouldn't be worth it. But come like August, hell that would probably save me money.
I don't frankly care what it is to you in particular. That's the effect it has on people, do you really want me to pull up the countless quotes saying "Can't wait to make money!"? Of course it's being used as an incentive to play the game, you don't make the intent go away by showing me how much of a special snowflake you are.
Refer to the last part of my last post. I want games to treat everyone equally, and not have preference for people with larger wallets. You don't, and that's pretty much where the conversation stops.
As for skill, you are right, I shouldn't totally discount skill in the equation. However, what I meant to say was that ultimately luck is going to play the biggest factor. After all, the best gear is NOT going to drop from bosses, but rare monsters. So the player lucky enough to run into more rare monsters is the one who is going to get the best loot.
Ultimately my point was that unlike an MMO, the quality of loot will never be the hallmark of a good player in Diablo. Even if there wasn't a real money AH.
Granted that Diablo 3 will feature any sort of difficulty, being a sucky player and farming relatively low level enemies will take dozens of times longer to get the same results as someone who is skilled. Skill is a factor in a very real way. And even if I granted you that the difference is negligible for the sake of argument, at least you've worked for those items. Now it's just a matter of whipping out a credit card.
I find the rare mob remark rather curious. What makes you think they have better loot tables than actual bosses?
Atmos Duality: With the added incentives for REAL MONEY, I could see people playing for hundreds of hours (most likely not having any fun, knowing grind) for all the wrong reasons. And Blizzard is going to lap all of it up.
Yeah, no. I don't need to waste that much of my life grinding away for nothing. I did my time in Diablo 2, thanks.
could already do that.
and they did. lots.
Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.
RJ 17: Ahhhh and Blizzard makes it's next great move in the battle to prove that they are still the undisputed champions in screwing over their fanbase. The contender, EA, is like the short scrappy fighter, landing many blows in a short period of time. Blizzard is like the heavyweight, slower to come out with such bullshit, but when they do it's a big punch. :P
How is this feature screwing over people!? You can buy the gear with in-game currancy. You can still get the gear by killing the boss yourself (and with a bit of luck)
It just gives people that want the easy way out, a chance to do so. At the risk of losing money.
It's ALL OPTIONAL!
A bit of luck? A BIT of luck?
I think the "Laugh Harder" clip fits here.
In over 300 hours of playing on the hardest difficulty, me and my three friends managed to get ONE Vex Rune, and zero Zod runes. Which are needed for the best gear in D2. And from early reports, the rarity of certain items will be EVEN HIGHER.
Why? Because if the item is easy to obtain, the value drops, and Blizzard doesn't make money. So there will be ridiculously overpowered and exceedingly rare items that grinding for will be a pointless waste of time. Unless you buy them with money.
For those who care, if this game had any pretense of fair PvP, it's gone. Poof.
black_knight1337: Wow, so many hypocrites in here. It's common sense that the middle man is going to take a small percentage of the profits from the transaction. It happens in EVERY SINGLE CASE. Any time someone sells something through someone else the third party is always going to take their share. honestly people should be happy that they are taking so little of your profits from this. Lets use an example of the same thing happening. I trade in a game and I get say $10 for it. That game store then goes on to sell that game for $20 - 30. Blizzard in this example would only be putting it up to roughly $15. Thats a significant difference if you do that on a regular basis.
Also, I have no intention on using real money in the auction house. All I'm going to be doing with it is selling to get in-game currency (might have some chucked to my battle net account) and by the off chance I buy something it will be using the in-game currency. No-one is forcing you to fork out hundreds of dollars getting the best equipment. Of course some people would be stupid enough to do so. That doesn't mean that you have to buy your way there as well. Everything can be earned through gameplay. If you want that high end stuff just crank the difficulty up to hardest.
You know what that did for me and my friends in D2? Somewhere between fuck and all. In 300 hours, we got 1 vex rune and 0 zod runes. No where close to the items we needed. After 300 hours.
And the rarity of needed items in D3 is expected to be EVEN HIGHER to make them worth money.
If you don't see a problem with this, you need to get your eyesight examined.
Adjudicator: How is this different from what Eve Online does?
Or even what TF2 does? Valve actually sells items directly, in their always online game, which I paid $20 for so don't tell me it was F2P.
But I guess if Valve does it it's OK.
Because the items in TF2 are either hats (which do nothing in gameplay) or weapons that are unlockable anyway. More importantly, the difference in weapons is barely noticeable. You can use the base setup on just about every class and do just fine.
In D3, just like in D2, there will be 20 items spread among the classes that will be needed to be relevant in gameplay at all, and everything else is so much trash. And those 20 items will be rare as hell, so good luck getting them. So either buy them from the house, or do nothing in combat and be bored as hell.
Elamdri: 1: I don't think that having money in the game is going to negatively impact the economy. In fact, I think it will make things easier in terms of pricing. Here is what will inevitably happen: People are going to come to an agreement on how much Gold = $1, because afterall, you are going to be able to sell Gold on the RMAH. Once you have figured out how much gold translates to $1, from there pricing is going to be really easy. If an item sells high on the RMAH, but low on the Gold AH, buy it and sell it on the RMAH. If the inverse is true, buy the item on the RMAH, sell it high on the Gold AH and them resell the Gold on the RMAH at standard price to recoup your loss. Because of this, prices are going to be pretty standard between the RMAH and the Gold AH.
Not a matter of opinion. Having two sets of currency in this sort of setup instead of one will invariably devalue both of them. Gold will have less buying power. That was my point and it's irrelevant whether later on there will be a standard or not.
To say that Gold will have less buying power than real money may be true at first, but I disagree about the likelyhood overtime. In every game economy, bulk goods invariably wind up with a standard pricing range. This is almost assuredly going to be the case with gold.
Now, lets look at it this way. Assume that Axe of Doom sells on the AH for 20 dollars. Assume also that 100,000 gold sells for 5 dollars. If that is the case, then the Axe of Doom should sell on the gold AH for about 400,000. However, if what you are saying is true, and gold will be devalued, then what we will see is people selling Axe of Doom for 20 dollars on the Real Money AH and 600,000 gold on the Gold AH. If that is the case, then what players are going to invariably do is buy Axes of Doom on the RMAH for 20 dollars. Then they will turn around and sell the Axe of Doom for 600,000 gold on the Gold AH. Once they get their gold, they can sell the gold on the AH for 30 dollars, netting about a 5 dollar profit after Blizzard takes it's cut. Invariably, what you will see then is that either the price of the Axe of Doom on the Gold AH will drop, or the price on the RMAH will increase.
2: Well, my big thing there is so what? I've never been in the "Gold selling is wrong" camp. I mean, what does it matter to me if someone wants to spend a ton of their cash buying gear? I'm not even trying to turn this into an ethical issue. If somewhere out there a chinese prison is ordering 10,000 copies of Diablo 3, eh, well sucks to be them I guess.
Not trying to turn it into a moral issue. My point was that the thing most people pretend to care about about will be encouraged, ergo, the repercussions on the game's economy will be increased, not decreased.
Fair enough, like I said, I don't have a horse in the race, just my 2 cents.
3: To me the RMAH isn't an incentive to play. Mostly because I don't really think that people are going to be making a lot of money off of it. I suppose it's possible, but I'm not sure. What I do think will happen however is that there are going to be some people who see this as a good way to fund their WoW addiction, which is cool for them I guess. What I think this is however is just a different way for people to gear out their character if they choose to do so. I mean, hell, pretty soon I'm going to be working a hell of a lot more hours but for much higher pay. For someone in that situation, you have to look at the cost-benefit. How much money do you make in an hour? How long will it take you to get an item? Is it worth it to spend hours grinding to get something when you could just buy it?
I mean right now for me, if something was listed up there for like 20 bucks and it took hours to get, it wouldn't be worth it. But come like August, hell that would probably save me money.
I don't frankly care what it is to you in particular. That's the effect it has on people, do you really want me to pull up the countless quotes saying "Can't wait to make money!"? Of course it's being used as an incentive to play the game, you don't make the intent go away by showing me how much of a special snowflake you are.
Refer to the last part of my last post. I want games to treat everyone equally, and not have preference for people with larger wallets. You don't, and that's pretty much where the conversation stops.
Sure, I mean I get where you are coming from. I disagree obviously, but I understand your point. My point is that RPGs, by their nature, will never be equal among players. I feel that striving to make people equal in an RPG is detrimental. The whole point of an video game RPG is to become the best, most powerful player you can, but what is the point if everyone else is just as powerful as you are?
As for skill, you are right, I shouldn't totally discount skill in the equation. However, what I meant to say was that ultimately luck is going to play the biggest factor. After all, the best gear is NOT going to drop from bosses, but rare monsters. So the player lucky enough to run into more rare monsters is the one who is going to get the best loot.
Ultimately my point was that unlike an MMO, the quality of loot will never be the hallmark of a good player in Diablo. Even if there wasn't a real money AH.
Granted that Diablo 3 will feature any sort of difficulty, being a sucky player and farming relatively low level enemies will take dozens of times longer to get the same results as someone who is skilled. Skill is a factor in a very real way. And even if I granted you that the difference is negligible for the sake of argument, at least you've worked for those items. Now it's just a matter of whipping out a credit card.
I find the rare mob remark rather curious. What makes you think they have better loot tables than actual bosses?
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Elamdri: To say that Gold will have less buying power than real money may be true at first, but I disagree about the likelyhood overtime. In every game economy, bulk goods invariably wind up with a standard pricing range. This is almost assuredly going to be the case with gold.
Now, lets look at it this way. Assume that Axe of Doom sells on the AH for 20 dollars. Assume also that 100,000 gold sells for 5 dollars. If that is the case, then the Axe of Doom should sell on the gold AH for about 400,000. However, if what you are saying is true, and gold will be devalued, then what we will see is people selling Axe of Doom for 20 dollars on the Real Money AH and 600,000 gold on the Gold AH. If that is the case, then what players are going to invariably do is buy Axes of Doom on the RMAH for 20 dollars. Then they will turn around and sell the Axe of Doom for 600,000 gold on the Gold AH. Once they get their gold, they can sell the gold on the AH for 30 dollars, netting about a 5 dollar profit after Blizzard takes it's cut. Invariably, what you will see then is that either the price of the Axe of Doom on the Gold AH will drop, or the price on the RMAH will increase.
You're missing the point. Gold is going to be devalued as opposed to real money not being (as big a) part of the economy. If you make the pool of currency bigger without making the pool of products bigger, the currency will be devalued, period, end of story. The possibility of an emergent standard later on is irrelevant. What you perceive as my position is complete and utter nonsense.
Sure, I mean I get where you are coming from. I disagree obviously, but I understand your point. My point is that RPGs, by their nature, will never be equal among players. I feel that striving to make people equal in an RPG is detrimental. The whole point of an video game RPG is to become the best, most powerful player you can, but what is the point if everyone else is just as powerful as you are?
I didn't mean it in an "everyone should have the same experience" way, but from an equal opportunity perspective.
Hammeroj: Granted that Diablo 3 will feature any sort of difficulty, being a sucky player and farming relatively low level enemies will take dozens of times longer to get the same results as someone who is skilled. Skill is a factor in a very real way. And even if I granted you that the difference is negligible for the sake of argument, at least you've worked for those items. Now it's just a matter of whipping out a credit card.
I find the rare mob remark rather curious. What makes you think they have better loot tables than actual bosses?
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I'd rather have you answer the question. I don't like listening to people from Blizzard talk similarly to the way I don't like listening to stereotypical politicians talk.
Hammeroj: Granted that Diablo 3 will feature any sort of difficulty, being a sucky player and farming relatively low level enemies will take dozens of times longer to get the same results as someone who is skilled. Skill is a factor in a very real way. And even if I granted you that the difference is negligible for the sake of argument, at least you've worked for those items. Now it's just a matter of whipping out a credit card.
I find the rare mob remark rather curious. What makes you think they have better loot tables than actual bosses?
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I'd rather have you answer the question. I don't like listening to people from Blizzard talk similarly to the way I don't like listening to stereotypical politicians talk.
I don't know how to be more authoritative on the issue than quoting a primary source. He says in the game that the focus is going to be on rares and champions to get the best loot, not the bosses.
Elamdri: I don't know how to be more authoritative on the issue than quoting a primary source. He says in the game that the focus is going to be on rares and champions to get the best loot, not the bosses.
Well that sounds bloody annoying.
I guess it bears mentioning that at least in the beta, the skeleton king had like a ten times better drop table than any of the hundred of rare mobs I killed. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but it didn't feel at all that the focus of the loot was put on those rare monsters.
Elamdri: I don't know how to be more authoritative on the issue than quoting a primary source. He says in the game that the focus is going to be on rares and champions to get the best loot, not the bosses.
Well that sounds bloody annoying.
I guess it bears mentioning that at least in the beta, the skeleton king had like a ten times better drop table than any of the hundred of rare mobs I killed. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but it didn't feel at all that the focus of the loot was put on those rare monsters.
Here is what I understand so far from what I have read and watched online.
Rares and Champions give the best loot drops.
Once you hit 60, killing Rare and Champion packs give you a buff called Nephalem Valor that persists as long as you don't swap your skills, runes, passives or leave the game. While the buff is up, you have increased magic and gold find chances, and it makes bosses drop extra loot.
Elamdri: Here is what I understand so far from what I have read and watched online.
Rares and Champions give the best loot drops.
Once you hit 60, killing Rare and Champion packs give you a buff called Nephalem Valor that persists as long as you don't swap your skills, runes, passives or leave the game. While the buff is up, you have increased magic and gold find chances, and it makes bosses drop extra loot.
I've heard them talking about giving a similar sort of buff if nothing good drops for you for a while some time ago, but this just sounds weird. Like why would elites give you this sort of a buff. And why does it magically start happening at level 60. It's just bizarre.
But still, that doesn't make it sound like the focus will shift to rares specifically, since the buff as you describe it affects bosses and normal creeps as well.
I think we might have a bit of an issue with terminology here.
At it's very core Diablo is nothing more than repeatedly killing monsters that drop shiny stuff. Hence "grind". This is not a pejorative term, nor even strictly indicative of the mundane, uninterrupted "kill this a gabazillion times to win" it has been associated with, due to bad execution by other games.
It says exactly as much as stating that one progresses through an FPS by repeatedly shooting stuff.
If you'd like to assign a different name to this basic concept of forcibly digging through whatever areas the game provides you with, then by all means - as long as you'll consider that when taking out the "fight monsters, explore dungeons, and complete quests" Diablo III is left with nothing more than a few books of lore, and a notice stating: "You Have Won The Game".
NameIsRobertPaulson: You know what that did for me and my friends in D2? Somewhere between fuck and all. In 300 hours, we got 1 vex rune and 0 zod runes. No where close to the items we needed. After 300 hours.
And the rarity of needed items in D3 is expected to be EVEN HIGHER to make them worth money.
If you don't see a problem with this, you need to get your eyesight examined.
and yet throughout the years of playing Diablo 2 I never once had to resort to the back-door gold farming bs to get where I needed to be. I played the game on the highest settings so that the best equipment will be available. Amazingly I kept up just fine with those who bought the high end equipment. Also, you do know that buying items in Diablo 2 had a pretty big presence even though it was against the rules. Blizzard are taking the risk out of these shady operations by providing a sanctioned method of doing it and quite honestly the system they are putting in place seems pretty damn good. They are taken a considerably small cut from your earnings when compared to other services of this nature. There's a 3 day lock-out so that you are still encouraged to play the game rather than pay for high end stuff straight up.
Ranorak: As long as those items CAN be obtained in the game. I'm not complaining. If someone really wants to spend 250 dollars on a in game armour, then so be it.
This is what I think also.
No one is forcing you to pay for the loot. Also your loot is yours, meaning that whatever drops off the mob is yours, and not visible to anyone else. This means no one can ninja that one item, just because you can get $250 for it on the RMAH.
So I don't see a problem. I won't use the thing, but I view it as a much better way of dealing with gold farming etc than saying "it will get you banned from game"
Vhite: I dont see a reason why whould anyone couplain about this. You don't have to use it and there will be no spamers and bots who destroyed D2's leveling.
Most peoples complaints are focused around buying power when it comes to PvP, they don't like the idea of someone just buying all the high tier gear they want and face rolling legit players.
Yeah it'll kill the spammers / bots (most of them anyways I'm sure there will be some it is a Blizzard game) but the worry of someone not getting their gear legit is a biggish one.
Though I can already see the PvP insults now "GG nub, go buy more gear with mommys credit card."
I think we might have a bit of an issue with terminology here.
At it's very core Diablo is nothing more than repeatedly killing monsters that drop shiny stuff. Hence "grind".
You just described "Progress Quest", not Diablo. If you actually think that's all Diablo is, then Google Progress Quest and play it. I just saved you 50+ bucks.
There's quite a bit more to it than that; there is an element of strategy amidst the mindless murder and some sensibility when it comes to taking skills. I played every permutation of every skill build you could think of (no, I do not exaggerate), and it's surprising how certain interactions worked out.
I get the appeal of the monster-mash, really. I wouldn't have played for so long if I didn't. But to claim that Grinding for Loot is the ONLY PART OF DIABLO is just hand-waving everything else away. Grind can mask and devalue legitimately GOOD gameplay.
This is not a pejorative term, nor even strictly indicative of the mundane, uninterrupted "kill this a gabazillion times to win" it has been associated with, due to bad execution by other games.
It says exactly as much as stating that one progresses through an FPS by repeatedly shooting stuff.
That's an over-generalization and you know it. Truly, I was hoping to avoid this tired argument for once.
You ignore a great deal of fun that's derived from trying different strategies based on the environment. Even Doom had places where one had to prepare for the inevitable trap; switching to the right weapon at the right time made the highest difficulties approachable.
If you'd like to assign a different name to this basic concept of forcibly digging through whatever areas the game provides you with, then by all means - as long as you'll consider that when taking out the "fight monsters, explore dungeons, and complete quests" Diablo III is left with nothing more than a few books of lore, and a notice stating: "You Have Won The Game".
I don't have to give it a new name.
The trap people fall into with those sorts of arguments is this: "Repetition occurs, grind is only repetition, ergo, it's subjective. Stop whining about it. Work and reward is part of the appeal."
What they ignore is CONTEXT. What makes the boss fights in Megaman any different from the levels? Context. The game has three basic components which you will repeatedly use: Running, Jumping, Shooting. You're still just running, jumping and shooting, but the game presents obstacles in different arrangements for you to overcome.
This is why over-generalized arguments of "Shooters are just about shooting things" do not work. Likewise, assuming "Diablo is about grinding for loot" simply means it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Grind in this sense, is simply forcing the player to retread old ground just for the sake of doing it. It's circular logic, which is a flimsy justification for padding out playtime.
If you want to see what gaming would be like without that changing context as incentive for player interaction, what a genuine "grind for levels, loot, and nothing else" game plays like, again, look up "Progress Quest".
I like Diablo 1 & 2's gameplay, but the problem arises when the game gives you ABSOLUTELY NO OPTION OTHER THAN TO PLAY THE LUCK GAME, AND GRIND. Forced repetition as an entryway to progress makes no sense. You've conquered that area by skill, but now you have to go do "work" in what is supposed to be a venture of amusement in order to progress?
That's like paying to get into an amusement park, but only being allowed to ride the rollercoasters once you've rode the Merry-Go-Round 100 times.
RJ 17: Ahhhh and Blizzard makes it's next great move in the battle to prove that they are still the undisputed champions in screwing over their fanbase. The contender, EA, is like the short scrappy fighter, landing many blows in a short period of time. Blizzard is like the heavyweight, slower to come out with such bullshit, but when they do it's a big punch. :P
How is this feature screwing over people!? You can buy the gear with in-game currancy. You can still get the gear by killing the boss yourself (and with a bit of luck)
It just gives people that want the easy way out, a chance to do so. At the risk of losing money.
It's ALL OPTIONAL!
A bit of luck? A BIT of luck?
I think the "Laugh Harder" clip fits here.
In over 300 hours of playing on the hardest difficulty, me and my three friends managed to get ONE Vex Rune, and zero Zod runes. Which are needed for the best gear in D2. And from early reports, the rarity of certain items will be EVEN HIGHER.
Why? Because if the item is easy to obtain, the value drops, and Blizzard doesn't make money. So there will be ridiculously overpowered and exceedingly rare items that grinding for will be a pointless waste of time. Unless you buy them with money.
For those who care, if this game had any pretense of fair PvP, it's gone. Poof.
2 flaws in that.
You cant buy a Vex rune if you dont get it to drop first. In other words. Gear that is on the AH is only gear that can (and have been) obtained normally. You would have to deal with the guy who got the item in the first place. That it jumps from player to player through real money doesn't change that it was there to begin with. It isn't a ingame shop. It is an auction house. The same loot will be there with or without it.
Secondly. If it was Blizzard would want to increase trade. Not decrease. They get 1 dollar per listing fee. More drops = more listings = more fees.
On the very silly PvP arguement. what if a guy is just luckier than you? Not richer. Just lucker and gets better random dropped gear than you? This isn't a skill rewarded or strategy. It rewards pure chance.
How the heck did you take Diablo PvP seriuse to begin with?
long, and completely irrelevant 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Once again, this is the equivalent of charging a red flag - and equally pointless.
How much skill it takes, or how much variety it offers is completely and utterly irrelevant to my point - as I also believe I stated in two previous posts now.
The core concept of loot acquisition is "put in time and skill, and receive reward". Nothing more, nothing less.
Whether you enjoy the process of putting in effort is up to you, and the quality of the game. Your much-touted "Progress Quest" apparently does this quite badly, while Diablo tends to do it reasonably well.
And while this massive numbers game of drops is unlikely to yield you the perfect gear straight away, its iterations (kills + chests) are numerous enough to smooth out any bumps in luck, and give you a reasonably consistent total monetary worth in drops. You vendor the worthless ones, and auction off the valuable ones. Combine the profits, buy yourself something nice, and your activities have still yielded you the reward you wanted.
Whether you refer to those activities as "grinding", "dungeon crawling", "playing the game", or "jabbadabbadowedoo" is up to you.
There's honest intentions, but I'm curious how it will turn out. This is quite a interesting experiment.
I'm kind of excited for a different reason. D3 will be good. Almost certainly. Blizzard knows what they are doing. And I'm suspecting that the AH system will make them a lot of money. Which means, to reach a larger audience, I'm predicting a drastic price drop very, very quickly.
Once again, this is the equivalent of charging a red flag - and equally pointless.
How much skill it takes, or how much variety it offers is completely and utterly irrelevant to my point - as I also believe I stated in two previous posts now.
Circular Logic and hand-waving. "It is, because it is."
I provide facts. I provide examples. They get hand-waved away "by magic". So there's no point in continuing this; it just leads back to the same "Subjective" argument that dismisses the problem rather than addressing it.
I know for certain is that grind alone is not gameplay, and that any grind or busywork (or whatever you prefer to call it) is NOTHING but a detrimental element in game design that should be stamped out where possible, NOT embraced.
Because when you embrace grind as a surrogate for gameplay, you end up with Progress Quest.
Once again, this is the equivalent of charging a red flag - and equally pointless.
How much skill it takes, or how much variety it offers is completely and utterly irrelevant to my point - as I also believe I stated in two previous posts now.
Circular Logic and hand-waving. "It is, because it is."
I provide facts. I provide examples. They get hand-waved away "by magic". So there's no point in continuing this; it just leads back to the same "Subjective" argument that dismisses the problem rather than addressing it.
I know for certain is that grind alone is not gameplay, and that any grind or busywork (or whatever you prefer to call it) is NOTHING but a detrimental element in game design that should be stamped out where possible, NOT embraced.
Because when you embrace grind as a surrogate for gameplay, you end up with Progress Quest.
Please do realise I never have been, and still am not talking about how the gameplay is implemented. All I did was take as a given there is some kind of gameplay, which you happily took up as an excuse to go and bore me with a treatise on why mindlessly grinding mobs into oblivion is a bad thing.
Believe me, I know; I also have faced quests that tasked me with killing 500+ mobs. This, however, is a discussion about the Diablo III auction house, not your preferred way of getting loot and levels.
Please do realise I never have been, and still am not talking about how the gameplay is implemented. All I did was take as a given there is some kind of gameplay, which you happily took up as an excuse to go and bore me with a treatise on why mindlessly grinding mobs into oblivion is a bad thing.
Alright...sorry. Been under a fair bit of stress this week. I honestly shouldn't even be trying to do my usual over-analysis here until after Finals at least.
Believe me, I know; I also have faced quests that tasked me with killing 500+ mobs. This, however, is a discussion about the Diablo III auction house, not your preferred way of getting loot and levels.
Right...
I bring it up because I know that Blizzard are trend-setters. And the trends Diablo III will set worries me.
I bring it up because I know that Blizzard are trend-setters. And the trends Diablo III will set worries me.
Selling ingame gear for real money is hardly a new development, but legitimising and taxing the entire process indeed is relatively uncharted territory.
The closest example I can think of right now would be EVE's tradeable subscription time, which so far has fared reasonably well.
One aspect I'm quite interested in, however, is not the money that Blizzard gets from this, but the potential profit that players might make. Up to date this would be the first game where players actually have the ability to recoup their purchase price by playing, and even make a profit on it.
It sounds good on paper, but my gut feeling doesn't agree. Namely, even if the game pays for itself in the long run, isn't that LITERALLY turning a game into a job?
Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.
Are you joking?
They want to make money doing it, they do not give two shits about making it safer and easier.
Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.
Are you joking?
They want to make money doing it, they do not give two shits about making it safer and easier.
Are you joking yourself? Have you heard of CS costs? That 90% of Blizzard employees are CS for WoW?
What do you think the single biggest source for CS problems is in WoW?
Jesus Christ. Safer and easier IS making them more money. By itself.
Drugs aren't a problem in the first place; the war on drugs you're referencing is based on a completely manufactured issue,
RMT isn't a problem either, any more than drugs. Or, for that matter, prostitution, gambling, booze, or any other activity which human society has tried to ban and fight wars against and which ALWAYS fails. The "war on RMT" Blizzard carried out in WoW failed. Every other company has failed. Eventually companies wise up and start facilitating it. The worse way to do it is with the cash shop, since that completely changes the economy. The best way to do it is like EVE- make it part of the economy. Tax and regulate- just like the government should be doing with drugs.
just like the prohibition, except by a different group of interests.
It's not analogous, and you didn't read what I said.
Sorry - directly analogous.
The only direct incentive Blizzard has now is to encourage more people to use dollars to buy phat lewt. Where you picked up on the dead economy and no fees thing is beyond me.
If people aren't having fun with however the economy ends up, they will stop playing and stop paying. Hence a dead, or broken economy, is no good to ANYONE.
As if without real money in the equation, an economy can't be sustained and the game can't be fun in the long run for some reason.
It doesn't matter whether they include real money or not. Real money is part of the equation whether you, they, or I like it or not. 20 years of online games should make that VERY obvious.
D2 went to shit because of the black market. In a way fairly similar to how places go to shit thanks to drug black markets or alcohol black markets. The black market encouraged crime, fraud, dupes, etc. And Blizzard wasn't exactly going to spend all their money policing it and fixing it when they had no ongoing revenue stream- they still put in some effort, but nowhere near what was required. Especially since people often got hacked or viruses or stolen credit cards by going to shady sites. You may say that's their fault- guess who has to deal with it? The rest of us and Blizzard, and it's human nature, you are not going to ban it and defeat it. The SAME exact thing happened in WoW AGAIN, as well as in other games of this type.
Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.
Are you joking?
They want to make money doing it, they do not give two shits about making it safer and easier.
Are you joking yourself? Have you heard of CS costs? That 90% of Blizzard employees are CS for WoW?
What do you think the single biggest source for CS problems is in WoW?
Jesus Christ. Safer and easier IS making them more money. By itself.
Umm yes, but only because they want to make money doing it.
They don't care about it being safer and easier for the consumer, they want to make money and that's why they did it.
They want to make money doing it, they do not give two shits about making it safer and easier.
Are you joking yourself? Have you heard of CS costs? That 90% of Blizzard employees are CS for WoW?
What do you think the single biggest source for CS problems is in WoW?
Jesus Christ. Safer and easier IS making them more money. By itself.
Umm yes, but only because they want to make money doing it.
They don't care about it being safer and easier for the consumer, they want to make money and that's why they did it.
They care about it being safer and easier for the consumer BECAUSE it makes them more money. That's why ANY company cares about their customers. Nintendo doesn't care about you personally, neither does Valve, or EA, or Blizzard.
How is that a bad thing for me as a consumer again?
Umm yes, but only because they want to make money doing it.
They don't care about it being safer and easier for the consumer, they want to make money and that's why they did it.
They care about it being safer and easier for the consumer BECAUSE it makes them more money. That's why ANY company cares about their customers.
How is that a bad thing for me as a consumer again?
You seem to think I'm arguing against that.
I was pointing out it's not done from the goodness of their hearts or to see the smiles of children.
I guess I don't understand why that's relevant. Companies almost never act out of those motivations alone! Bottom line is 99.9% of the time a consideration!
I say that if a game is based on grind, it is deeply, fundamentally flawed and not worth playing, or its merits worth defending.
Why? Because it fails to answer one important question:
"What is the purpose of a game if it's designed to systematically bore you?"
This is the one question I have NEVER received a satisfactory answer for.
When I finish grinding, I ultimately feel cheated. Cheated of time I could have spent doing anything better; a game that's more interesting and fun.
As for implementation: Grind as an option?
Eh, that's pushing it, but as long as there's a way to reward player skill FIRST, then it's perfectly tolerable.
But grind as a REQUIREMENT? Indefensible. People say that games have no purpose but to waste time; I say why merely waste time? Why not challenge yourself or otherwise just have FUN with your spare time?
Why turn gaming into another mundane, boring job?
Yeah? And there are plenty of other games that reward the player without forcing them to grind AT ALL. Legend of Grimrock just came out and it does precisely that.
Going beyond static item placement:
Nethack has COMPLETE item randomization, yet it does not require the player to grind at all in order to win (there are methods that involve grinding, but none of them are required, nor optimal). A bit of luck will go a ways, but it never overtakes the necessity for planning and good decision making.
Tolerating a problem does not solve it.
Mitigation of grind may treat the symptoms, but it doesn't fix the problem.
Blizzard basically controls the grind-dial. I still argue that "balance" for viability doesn't really exist when it's so strongly based on luck.