Risen 2 - All DLC unlockable using console

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DustyDrB:
I really want this game, but have to admit this is embarrassingly stupid of them.

Chairman Miaow:
Although it's highly unlikely. And by the way, I agree, this is definitely piracy. Whether or not day one dlc is right or wrong this is piracy.

First of all: This is piracy.

I don't see this as stealing or copyright infringement. It's a manufacturing error. They shipped the game with the "extras" easily unlockable. The blame is on them, not the consumer

If I wanted to, I could easily steal my downstairs flatmate's stuff just because they leave the inside door unlocked and I know when they are out, does that mean I should steal all their stuff and it wouldn't be theft? Whether or not this piracy is justifiable doesn't matter and neither does whether a manufacturing oversight makes it possible to access. If I wanted I could crack and access any game. Should I claim that is a manufacturing oversight and I can pirate it?

Chairman Miaow:
If I wanted to, I could easily steal my downstairs flatmate's stuff just because they leave the inside door unlocked and I know when they are out, does that mean I should steal all their stuff and it wouldn't be theft? Whether or not this piracy is justifiable doesn't matter and neither does whether a manufacturing oversight makes it possible to access. If I wanted I could crack and access any game. Should I claim that is a manufacturing oversight and I can pirate it?

Ahhh! I'm not getting into a piracy debate with analogies, semantics, and all the stuff that comes with it!

You win! I'm wrong.

Huh. Wow. I'm not really sure how to feel about this.

Some sketchy business, for sure.

DustyDrB:

Chairman Miaow:
If I wanted to, I could easily steal my downstairs flatmate's stuff just because they leave the inside door unlocked and I know when they are out, does that mean I should steal all their stuff and it wouldn't be theft? Whether or not this piracy is justifiable doesn't matter and neither does whether a manufacturing oversight makes it possible to access. If I wanted I could crack and access any game. Should I claim that is a manufacturing oversight and I can pirate it?

Ahhh! I'm not getting into a piracy debate with analogies, semantics, and all the stuff that comes with it!

You win! I'm wrong.

Peh, at least give me the good stuff!

Chairman Miaow:

DustyDrB:

Chairman Miaow:
If I wanted to, I could easily steal my downstairs flatmate's stuff just because they leave the inside door unlocked and I know when they are out, does that mean I should steal all their stuff and it wouldn't be theft? Whether or not this piracy is justifiable doesn't matter and neither does whether a manufacturing oversight makes it possible to access. If I wanted I could crack and access any game. Should I claim that is a manufacturing oversight and I can pirate it?

Ahhh! I'm not getting into a piracy debate with analogies, semantics, and all the stuff that comes with it!

You win! I'm wrong.

Peh, at least give me the good stuff!

I was saving that one...fine.

You're not getting my bourbon, though.

Woodsey:
I mean really, if you insist on this DLC nonsense, at least bother with the pretence of it being something you created after the game was released. We buy a copy of the files, we get access to all of them. I am particularly arse-y and moralistic about piracy, but this is just a farce.

Indeed, my naive self would like to believe that DLC content is something that will enhanced the game but was not ready for the launch date, not a chunk of the game they thought was good enough to be purchased separately. There is something fundamentally wrong and cynical about this...

This is where I get to say: PC gamers play nice and don't hack the game just because you've taken to offense to this insignificant little piece of extra kit. If you had a little perspective on this, you will discover that a few extra costumes simply do not matter. That way the publishers will trust you enough to think about releasing more games on PC.

No this debate ain't an either or situation in all cases. A few minor items that are on disc is something not work getting pissed off about. Having 14 locked characters, however, is and deserves more attention.

Also, it is not about taking a principled stand. It is about choosing something that is more worth your time and energy. Getting upset over every DLC unlock codes makes you look like a reactionary idiot who does not think straight. Focus your attention on the more egregious examples and tell publishers that we will not tolerate that and it will also mean they will be less likely to do the minor things as well.

Draech:
They did for a fact not include batteries.

But they did, the proof is right there.

Your batteries analogy would only hold up if 'included' batteries required you to take them back to the shop and buy the end connector springs for the batteries (at 1000 times market value). You would quite rightly think that was a load of crap and fit your own springs. You're also legally entitled to do that all across the western world.

This is people making their own connections, it's not piracy, it's not even IP infringement, if the company is going to put operations on the disc they have to be prepared for people to use them. This isn't even hacking, the console commands are right there, coded into the game, it's on disc functionality, more fool the publisher.

i was planning to get risen 2 in a few days. congratulations you guys have lost yourself a sale.

i can see a patch being released very soon to cut out this "loop hole"

Draech:

Aaah I like your whiny threads Dex. Its has become somewhat a Zeel-lous pusuit of your.

See that's funny because from where I'm standing you are the one who sounds a bit like Zeel.

OT: Well I was already probably going to pass on this game thanks to the uninspiring previews and lukewarm reception from critics, but now there's no way i'll be buying this game. It was bad enough when ME3 cut out something fairly small but this sounds like a fairly large chunk of game.

This thread makes my head hurt.

People like Draech are the reason companies don't mind fucking us over.

mirage202:
So..

You preorder the game, by doing this you get a "free" DLC.

How free this DLC is, is debatable given the game cost 10 more than most new PC releases, even cost 5 more than MW3.

Game arrives, with future DLC content hidden away in the files.

There comes a point when practices like this, are unacceptable. DLCs are supposed to be the expansion packs of this day and age, adding new content to your game. It fails by definition to expand with new content, if it is already there from the start.

Draech is no less entitled to his opinion than anybody else, however he has freely admitted working in the software industry and thus has a biased interest, so perhaps his comments should be taken with a pinch of salt rather than trying to fight with him over it.

The thing is mate. Even if it is locked away then what?

You didn't buy it for the DLC you didn't know was there as far as I know. You bought it for what you knew about. Did it decrease in value when you knew it could be expanded?

You still have what you paid for. What has changed?
Why do you have the rights to something you weren't promised?

major_chaos:

Draech:

Aaah I like your whiny threads Dex. Its has become somewhat a Zeel-lous pusuit of your.

See that's funny because from where I'm standing you are the one who sounds a bit like Zeel.

OT: Well I was already probably going to pass on this game thanks to the uninspiring previews and lukewarm reception from critics, but now there's no way i'll be buying this game. It was bad enough when ME3 cut out something fairly small but this sounds like a fairly large chunk of game.

Please point me to where my logic is flawed and I intend to rethink it.
Dex makes emotional appeals and argument from authority. Not arguing for his case himself just linking people who agree with him. And then tries to dismiss arguments without touching on them.

Please point to where my logic is flawed. I dont mind rethinking my position when my opinion isn't logically consistent.

Dexter111:

Draech:
Anyway keep doing your fight. Ill buy games that I think are worth my money. Ill pay for dlc that I think is worth my money. And I will at no point will I insist that I have the right to tell anyone how they do should do their business. Even if I am their customer. I was only their customer if I didn't think I was getting cheated.

So if you do feel like they're cheating you (or that they have cheated you), what exactly do you do? Bury your head in the sand and hope it goes away?
You know things like warranties, product exchange, labour law, paid holidays and every other right that you have as either a consumer, an employee or an individual are things that a group of other individuals put their foot down over at some point in human history and changed or wrote into laws. Nobody was born unto this world with perpetual rights or wisdom.
You might call it "entitlement" for whatever bull-headed reason you might have, I'd call it consumer rights.

I understand that them as companies are trying to push for as much profit as possible at the least expense imagineable while trying to ignore the rights of consumers as far as they can get away with, but you're not supposed to help them do so but steer against it.
You're arguing or to use your word "fighting" for the wrong side and it boggles my mind as to why... if your wish becomes true the practices they are using will only get worse (like they have for the last 10 years for instance) and will "inconvenience" you as much as they do everyone else.

Dexter, I agree with you completely on everything you've said. All of your arguments are irrefutable, no truly rational person would argue against it. However, Draech is not one of those people. In fact, he probably knows he's wrong and knows you're right and just doesn't want to admit it.

BTW, why do they do this disc locked and day 1 DLC crap anyway? If I were going to pull garbage like this (not to say I would) I wouldn't disc lock content or day 1 DLC it, I'd wait a few weeks first before releasing said content as true DLC, and so I'd at least look like I wasn't deliberately screwing my customer even though I actually would be. FYI, if I were to actually make a game with DLC (and I do plan on making video games for a living one of these days) I'd give out all DLC for free to anyone that legitmately purchased my game new and still possessed the orignal copy for as long as it took for me to make the DLC, only the used gamers would have to pay, and for them it would be for a pittance, $5 for everything tops. In other words, I'd reward loyalty and for everyone else give out my extra content for hardly anything.

Draech:

mirage202:
So..

You preorder the game, by doing this you get a "free" DLC.

How free this DLC is, is debatable given the game cost 10 more than most new PC releases, even cost 5 more than MW3.

Game arrives, with future DLC content hidden away in the files.

There comes a point when practices like this, are unacceptable. DLCs are supposed to be the expansion packs of this day and age, adding new content to your game. It fails by definition to expand with new content, if it is already there from the start.

Draech is no less entitled to his opinion than anybody else, however he has freely admitted working in the software industry and thus has a biased interest, so perhaps his comments should be taken with a pinch of salt rather than trying to fight with him over it.

The thing is mate. Even if it is locked away then what?

You didn't buy it for the DLC you didn't know was there as far as I know. You bought it for what you knew about. Did it decrease in value when you knew it could be expanded?

You still have what you paid for. What has changed?
Why do you have the rights to something you weren't promised?

The way I see it, when I purchase a game, the EULA grants me license to access the software contained within the product. Which, unless I am mistaken, is what it does, right?

So, continuing with that, the content, though "locked" is on disc, and is part of the software that I have purchased a license for, so the EULA grants me access to it correct?

In which case, I do have the rights to something I wasn't promised, the license to use the included software grants me that right. It is their own fault that instead of genuinely creating new content for later download, they cut existing content and included it with the rest.

Not claiming that it is correct, or fact. Just my take on it. Also for the record I use the term "I" subjectively, I did not purchase the game due to the whole 40 with *cough* free DLC raising a red flag.

Woodsey:

Perfect analogy: there's a side-mission in Human Revolution where you have to get some information from this informant. After he's told you everything, he then demands payment. I think Jensen's response is to laugh at him, too.

Alternatively, if you choose the nicer option, Jensen points out that the informant is a complete moron and that he shouldn't do anything so idiotic in the future. Equally appropriate, I think.

Captcha: twenty one. Blackjack! What do I win?

Lunar Templar:

Draech:

Lunar Templar:

i just wanna thank you, i just woke up you see and every thing you said has been funny in that 'how can some one be this wrong' kinda way :D

also, that button combination, was the Konami code, a cheat code that was built in to a TON of Konami games back in the day (8 and 16 bit)

learn some history there bro, cause you sounded really dumb when you called using it theft

What you are telling me is that the developers never meant to sell the DLC?

I mean if it is a cheat code, then it is a feature.
But if it is meant to be paid for it is hacking.

I didn't actually know that the Konami code was a fluke. Still doesn't change that the developers didn't try to sell extra lives on the home console versions. There is a reason the Konami code didn't work in the arcades where you paid for lives.

its doesn't JUST give lives, the effect changes depending on what game it's used on. like in Gradius, its a full power up code (and its an ass aver in those really shitty spots)

anyway, it was in use mostly during the SNES and NES era, -.- so the couldn't sell it.(again, learn some history)

as to the disk locked content, bit. whether it theft or not is moot to me, as i grew up in the generations of games where release WHOLE, no DLC, not blatant cash grab attempts, so the fact that they keep pulling this shit grates on my nerves.

it is a vile practice born solely of greed, and contempt for the player base, and it should be fought, and if that means hacking the game to see if its the DLC is on the disk, then so be it.

and YOUR defending it.

And you are making an emotional appeal rather than a logical one. You also changed the argument from "the dlc unlocking isn't piracy" to "On disk DLC is bad".

Let us see what you are saying.
If you had a store.
Can the customer tell you what to sell?
Can they tell you how to sell it?
Can they tell what price it should be?

If you answered no to any of that then you are opposing your own position. You believe you right as a customer extends past that of the seller. You might have an opinion of what constitutes a full product, but you only get to enforce that opinion by going either yes or no to the deal. Not by going yes and then changing the deal post sale.

What I am saying is this fair an simple.
I look at their product.
On what might have been cut.
On what I get for my money.
On what is future DLC.
On how much I have to pay for said product.

And then I make a decision accordingly. I go yes or no. That is my right as a customer. And it is based alone on my opinion of value. I have never said that making a game a lego set selling of bit by bit is good. I said I can see when I get my monies worth.

An example I like to bring up is an indie title called Dungeon Defenders. Cheap core game based around buying a ton of DLC. Some of it was in production upon release and had files in the core game. Others I dont know. I bought what I thought was worth my money. No more no less. To demand the full thing is the act of a child who cannot be trusted to make decisions.

I understand a companies need for "DLC", I understand some sections of games are pre-planned to be DLC from the start. I often understand that its easier if some games lay ground work for the DLC (if able) within the main game to making the adding of the DLC later down the road easier.

What I don't understand is nearly full functional DLC on the disk; which only leave the impression that the company wishes to fleece the game buyer.

Take ME3 Javik for example, while is was mostly a shell (as the "PC hack" was only a simple squad mate with no voice or interaction without the DLC downloaded), he still had a fully fledged artwork on disk. Javik DLC (other then the non-collectors price) would have gone over much smoother if Javik just look some some random NPC until the DLC was downloaded and real artwork replaced. If Javik just looked like a random NPC, BioWare could have easily bluffed and said "integrated character groundwork"... Most if not all extra ME2 DLC characters had the same groundwork and nobody raised hell. But because Javik had his full character artwork, the appearance that this wasn't DLC, but a cut core character was suddenly a valid issue.

Most people understand that most items take things to make. Most people can assume that a weapon (re-skin or new) can be made in a day or two. A character may take up to a week or more, depending on how many animations they have with them. A map or level may take up to 2 to 5 weeks, depending on size and details. Voice acting and dialog is about a couple of weeks too.

Making DLC takes time, certification for consoles take time (and often, DLC's made while waiting for console certification can be added to PC disks...) but regarded of time needed, the appearance of DLC still needs to appear "fair".
A few costume reskins, a small bonus level, some unique weapons on launch day as DLC appears fair (except to those who have "I NEED EVERYTHING" OCD). Most bigger day-one DLC's need to be free, to appear "fair". Cost for these DLC's should be included within the core game budget "new game" cost.
Much bigger paid DLC's should be at least 1-2 months after main game launch (even if completed back at core game) to appear "fair".

Draech:

major_chaos:

Draech:

Aaah I like your whiny threads Dex. Its has become somewhat a Zeel-lous pusuit of your.

See that's funny because from where I'm standing you are the one who sounds a bit like Zeel.

OT: Well I was already probably going to pass on this game thanks to the uninspiring previews and lukewarm reception from critics, but now there's no way i'll be buying this game. It was bad enough when ME3 cut out something fairly small but this sounds like a fairly large chunk of game.

Please point me to where my logic is flawed and I intend to rethink it.
Dex makes emotional appeals and argument from authority. Not arguing for his case himself just linking people who agree with him. And then tries to dismiss arguments without touching on them.

Please point to where my logic is flawed. I dont mind rethinking my position when my opinion isn't logically consistent.

I have neither the time nor the patience to argue with you, I was merely pointing out that with your convoluted analogies, insistence that anyone who disagrees with you does so out of ignorance, and continuous attempts to take the moral high ground you remind me significantly more of Zeel (just not as bad and with excessive tolerance instead of excessive hate) than the OP, and the fact that you see logic in your arguments makes no difference I'm sure Zeel thought everything he said was the pinnacle of logic.

mirage202:

Draech:

mirage202:
So..

You preorder the game, by doing this you get a "free" DLC.

How free this DLC is, is debatable given the game cost 10 more than most new PC releases, even cost 5 more than MW3.

Game arrives, with future DLC content hidden away in the files.

There comes a point when practices like this, are unacceptable. DLCs are supposed to be the expansion packs of this day and age, adding new content to your game. It fails by definition to expand with new content, if it is already there from the start.

Draech is no less entitled to his opinion than anybody else, however he has freely admitted working in the software industry and thus has a biased interest, so perhaps his comments should be taken with a pinch of salt rather than trying to fight with him over it.

The thing is mate. Even if it is locked away then what?

You didn't buy it for the DLC you didn't know was there as far as I know. You bought it for what you knew about. Did it decrease in value when you knew it could be expanded?

You still have what you paid for. What has changed?
Why do you have the rights to something you weren't promised?

The way I see it, when I purchase a game, the EULA grants me license to access the software contained within the product. Which, unless I am mistaken, is what it does, right?

So, continuing with that, the content, though "locked" is on disc, and is part of the software that I have purchased a license for, so the EULA grants me access to it correct?

In which case, I do have the rights to something I wasn't promised, the license to use the included software grants me that right. It is their own fault that instead of genuinely creating new content for later download, they cut existing content and included it with the rest.

Not claiming that it is correct, or fact. Just my take on it. Also for the record I use the term "I" subjectively, I did not purchase the game due to the whole 40 with *cough* free DLC raising a red flag.

I think you may need to reread the EULA. You own the features you are promised. Not more. I have yet to read an EULA that gives you the right to change the data. That is what you are doing.

When someone else does it is called hacking. When the creators do it is called unlocking.

I know that makes me sound like a corp git, but the fact you are paying for the features you are promised rather than what is on the disk protects you as well as hinders you.

Software is never released finished on the disk. Stuff like patches and multiplayer features are ensure to us because those are the features we are promised. The real problem is that the society didn't move fast enough to handle this. There isn't going punishment out to the software salemen who more or less became snake oil salesmen in the process of the industry evolving. That is where the real problem is.

In my opinion.

major_chaos:

Draech:

major_chaos:

See that's funny because from where I'm standing you are the one who sounds a bit like Zeel.

OT: Well I was already probably going to pass on this game thanks to the uninspiring previews and lukewarm reception from critics, but now there's no way i'll be buying this game. It was bad enough when ME3 cut out something fairly small but this sounds like a fairly large chunk of game.

Please point me to where my logic is flawed and I intend to rethink it.
Dex makes emotional appeals and argument from authority. Not arguing for his case himself just linking people who agree with him. And then tries to dismiss arguments without touching on them.

Please point to where my logic is flawed. I dont mind rethinking my position when my opinion isn't logically consistent.

I have neither the time nor the patience to argue with you, I was merely pointing out that with your convoluted analogies, insistence that anyone who disagrees with you does so out of ignorance, and continuous attempts to take the moral high ground you remind me significantly more of Zeel (just not as bad and with excessive tolerance instead of excessive hate) than the OP, and the fact that you see logic in your arguments makes no difference I'm sure Zeel thought everything he said was the pinnacle of logic.

In other words I am going to have to take your word for. Not good enough.

Draech:

major_chaos:

Draech:
Please point me to where my logic is flawed and I intend to rethink it.
Dex makes emotional appeals and argument from authority. Not arguing for his case himself just linking people who agree with him. And then tries to dismiss arguments without touching on them.

Please point to where my logic is flawed. I dont mind rethinking my position when my opinion isn't logically consistent.

I have neither the time nor the patience to argue with you, I was merely pointing out that with your convoluted analogies, insistence that anyone who disagrees with you does so out of ignorance, and continuous attempts to take the moral high ground you remind me significantly more of Zeel (just not as bad and with excessive tolerance instead of excessive hate) than the OP, and the fact that you see logic in your arguments makes no difference I'm sure Zeel thought everything he said was the pinnacle of logic.

In other words I am going to have to take your word for. Not good enough.

And here I said I wasn't going to argue with you. No my point was not "take me word for it" my point was that you trying to discredit the OP by comparing him to Zeel was stupid but beyond that your opinion is irrelevant to me and my opinion is irrelevant to you so I don't feel like bickering over this.

Draech:
They made a point out of selling that stuff separately. You hacked the game so you have access to it is no different than hacking steam servers to have access to dlc there. "it is on the disk" carries no more weight than "it is on the server".

Actually, because you physically own the disk, what you're doing is not invasive. The servers, however, belong to someone else. That's a major distinction, legally speaking. Now, if you're copying what's on the disk and distributing it, you're now going beyond what's legal and into copyright infringement.

Accessing files on the disc isn't wrong in any way. It's just not in line with what the seller intended. Wearing socks on my hands is also "not using the product as intended," but it's far from illegal or wrong.

Dastardly:

Draech:
They made a point out of selling that stuff separately. You hacked the game so you have access to it is no different than hacking steam servers to have access to dlc there. "it is on the disk" carries no more weight than "it is on the server".

Actually, because you physically own the disk, what you're doing is not invasive. The servers, however, belong to someone else. That's a major distinction, legally speaking. Now, if you're copying what's on the disk and distributing it, you're now going beyond what's legal and into copyright infringement.

Accessing files on the disc isn't wrong in any way. It's just not in line with what the seller intended. Wearing socks on my hands is also "not using the product as intended," but it's far from illegal or wrong.

I have yet to read an EULA that allows to change the files. There is a reason that is called hacking.I might be wrong and there might be one out there, but commonly you dont have free roam over the disk. There is a reason security is programmed onto it.

You are not allowed to rewrite data so you dont need a CD key is a good example. This isn't different.

Draech:

Dastardly:

Draech:
They made a point out of selling that stuff separately. You hacked the game so you have access to it is no different than hacking steam servers to have access to dlc there. "it is on the disk" carries no more weight than "it is on the server".

Actually, because you physically own the disk, what you're doing is not invasive. The servers, however, belong to someone else. That's a major distinction, legally speaking. Now, if you're copying what's on the disk and distributing it, you're now going beyond what's legal and into copyright infringement.

Accessing files on the disc isn't wrong in any way. It's just not in line with what the seller intended. Wearing socks on my hands is also "not using the product as intended," but it's far from illegal or wrong.

I have yet to read an EULA that allows to change the files. There is a reason that is called hacking.I might be wrong and there might be one out there, but commonly you dont have free roam over the disk. There is a reason security is programmed onto it.

You are not allowed to rewrite data so you dont need a CD key is a good example. This isn't different.

You people keep forgetting that EULA is not a legally binding document.

Murmillos:
I understand a companies need for "DLC", I understand some sections of games are pre-planned to be DLC from the start. I often understand that its easier if some games lay ground work for the DLC (if able) within the main game to making the adding of the DLC later down the road easier.

What I don't understand is nearly full functional DLC on the disk; which only leave the impression that the company wishes to fleece the game buyer.

Take ME3 Javik for example, while is was mostly a shell (as the "PC hack" was only a simple squad mate with no voice or interaction without the DLC downloaded), he still had a fully fledged artwork on disk. Javik DLC (other then the non-collectors price) would have gone over much smoother if Javik just look some some random NPC until the DLC was downloaded and real artwork replaced. If Javik just looked like a random NPC, BioWare could have easily bluffed and said "integrated character groundwork"... Most if not all extra ME2 DLC characters had the same groundwork and nobody raised hell. But because Javik had his full character artwork, the appearance that this wasn't DLC, but a cut core character was suddenly a valid issue.

Most people understand that most items take things to make. Most people can assume that a weapon (re-skin or new) can be made in a day or two. A character may take up to a week or more, depending on how many animations they have with them. A map or level may take up to 2 to 5 weeks, depending on size and details. Voice acting and dialog is about a couple of weeks too.

Making DLC takes time, certification for consoles take time (and often, DLC's made while waiting for console certification can be added to PC disks...) but regarded of time needed, the appearance of DLC still needs to appear "fair".
A few costume reskins, a small bonus level, some unique weapons on launch day as DLC appears fair (except to those who have "I NEED EVERYTHING" OCD). Most bigger day-one DLC's need to be free, to appear "fair". Cost for these DLC's should be included within the core game budget "new game" cost.
Much bigger paid DLC's should be at least 1-2 months after main game launch (even if completed back at core game) to appear "fair".

The thing is this isn't unheard of in business.

Gillette sells cheap razors to sell you razor blades. Encourage a long term customer.

HP puts chips in their ink cartridges so it is nearly impossible to get an unoriginal ink cartridge.

We (gaming community as a whole) oppose this as if it was a new way to make business. It really isn't.

Adam Jensen:

Draech:

Dastardly:

Actually, because you physically own the disk, what you're doing is not invasive. The servers, however, belong to someone else. That's a major distinction, legally speaking. Now, if you're copying what's on the disk and distributing it, you're now going beyond what's legal and into copyright infringement.

Accessing files on the disc isn't wrong in any way. It's just not in line with what the seller intended. Wearing socks on my hands is also "not using the product as intended," but it's far from illegal or wrong.

I have yet to read an EULA that allows to change the files. There is a reason that is called hacking.I might be wrong and there might be one out there, but commonly you dont have free roam over the disk. There is a reason security is programmed onto it.

You are not allowed to rewrite data so you dont need a CD key is a good example. This isn't different.

You people keep forgetting that EULA is not a legally binding document.

Fair enough. But you cannot expect the creators to still want to service you after you break them.

Draech:

Kahunaburger:
Hahahahaha that's beautiful. Apparently "on-disc DLC" is rapidly coming to mean "free DLC."

That is the idiocy of the whole thing. Just because it is on the disk doesn't mean it was free. It is their prerogative on how they will sell their games.

That it uses batteries does't mean "batteries included". Capcom did a somewhat crappy thing of making a lot of commercials and trailers without telling that the chars shown are sold separately, but when we are informed of what we are and arn't buying I dont really see the problem.

I already BOUGHT the disc. I OWN everything ON that disc. It's their fault if they were dumb enough to leave the DLC on there.

Draech:

Zachary Amaranth:

Draech:

They made a point out of selling that stuff separately. You hacked the game so you have access to it is no different than hacking steam servers to have access to dlc there. "it is on the disk" carries no more weight than "it is on the server".

Except one definitively negates the "downloadable" part of "downloadable content."

They did include the batteries. They're there on the disc. They're just charging you to use what's already included.

That doesn't make it right to hack the disc, mind, but te batteries are there.

Does it matter that it is downloaded whole?

I mean you are still sold what you are advertised. You have no right to play the parts they didn't sell you. You bought a game without those features. Does it matter that they can be unlocked?
You can argue very well that it is cut content, but does that matter?
You put together 2 braincells and said to your self "this game is/isn't worth the price they are taking for it" and acted accordingly.

The point is is that it isn't downloaded.

All of the DLC content, save for the voices is on the disks and can be accessed, in game, by simply using programmed cheat codes. No hacking, cracking or illegal activity has taken place, therefore anyone who 'unlocks' this DLC is not breaking the law, as one has technically already bought the DLC content (Albeit not totally complete) by buying the disc.

In essence, the batteries are there, and have even been inserted into their slots - they just aren't connected to the main circuit and are at about 80% charge, with the publisher asking you to pay for that last 20%. Just seems wrong. Shouldn't really put it on there in the first place. Makes no sense.

Also, while I haven't been following this very closely (even though I am a HUGE PB fan), if at any point they have claimed that the DLC content was cut from the final game then are are not actually selling what is advertised, and nitpicky whiners could even claim that they are breaking some kind of law (Particularly in Germany).

THIS is why people are mad.

Draech:

mirage202:

Draech:

The thing is mate. Even if it is locked away then what?

You didn't buy it for the DLC you didn't know was there as far as I know. You bought it for what you knew about. Did it decrease in value when you knew it could be expanded?

You still have what you paid for. What has changed?
Why do you have the rights to something you weren't promised?

The way I see it, when I purchase a game, the EULA grants me license to access the software contained within the product. Which, unless I am mistaken, is what it does, right?

So, continuing with that, the content, though "locked" is on disc, and is part of the software that I have purchased a license for, so the EULA grants me access to it correct?

In which case, I do have the rights to something I wasn't promised, the license to use the included software grants me that right. It is their own fault that instead of genuinely creating new content for later download, they cut existing content and included it with the rest.

Not claiming that it is correct, or fact. Just my take on it. Also for the record I use the term "I" subjectively, I did not purchase the game due to the whole 40 with *cough* free DLC raising a red flag.

I think you may need to reread the EULA. You own the features you are promised. Not more. I have yet to read an EULA that gives you the right to change the data. That is what you are doing.

When someone else does it is called hacking. When the creators do it is called unlocking.

I know that makes me sound like a corp git, but the fact you are paying for the features you are promised rather than what is on the disk protects you as well as hinders you.

Software is never released finished on the disk. Stuff like patches and multiplayer features are ensure to us because those are the features we are promised. The real problem is that the society didn't move fast enough to handle this. There isn't going punishment out to the software salemen who more or less became snake oil salesmen in the process of the industry evolving. That is where the real problem is.

In my opinion.

I agree with the majority of the posts made by Draech in this thread. Even if the content was a continuation of the story accessing this content without a licence for it is still technically piracy.

Sure day one DLC can often be irritating, and a complete rip off but if you don't want it, don't buy it. You would still get the same game you wanted and purchased. For example if a strategy game or a new call of duty or battlefield came out but had extra maps as day one DLC i would not buy it unless i thought it was worth the price, its not like the extra content is being forced upon you.

If you think that what publishers are doing is bad just dont buy the DLC then they will get the message, but if you hack the disk for it then they will think that you want the DLC and will just make it harder to acquire.

Well that's my opinion anyway.

Syzygy23:

Draech:

Kahunaburger:
Hahahahaha that's beautiful. Apparently "on-disc DLC" is rapidly coming to mean "free DLC."

That is the idiocy of the whole thing. Just because it is on the disk doesn't mean it was free. It is their prerogative on how they will sell their games.

That it uses batteries does't mean "batteries included". Capcom did a somewhat crappy thing of making a lot of commercials and trailers without telling that the chars shown are sold separately, but when we are informed of what we are and arn't buying I dont really see the problem.

I already BOUGHT the disc. I OWN everything ON that disc. It's their fault if they were dumb enough to leave the DLC on there.

Do you own the right to change the data so you dont have to use a Reg Key?
Do you own the right to edit the data and use it for a different purpose (IE use engine to make a different game)?

Draech:

And you are making an emotional appeal rather than a logical one. You also changed the argument from "the dlc unlocking isn't piracy" to "On disk DLC is bad".

i do that, and i never said it wasn't piracy, just that i don't care in instances like this. (as my actual stance on piracy is a bit contradictory at times)

Let us see what you are saying.
If you had a store.
Can the customer tell you what to sell?
Can they tell you how to sell it?
Can they tell what price it should be?

If you answered no to any of that then you are opposing your own position. You believe you right as a customer extends past that of the seller. You might have an opinion of what constitutes a full product, but you only get to enforce that opinion by going either yes or no to the deal. Not by going yes and then changing the deal post sale.

What I am saying is this fair an simple.
I look at their product.
On what might have been cut.
On what I get for my money.
On what is future DLC.
On how much I have to pay for said product.

And then I make a decision accordingly. I go yes or no. That is my right as a customer. And it is based alone on my opinion of value. I have never said that making a game a lego set selling of bit by bit is good. I said I can see when I get my monies worth.

a fine, annoyingly well worded example to make your point (also, thank you for not not being a dick like the last jackass i had this conversation with, really, thank you :) )

my problem with it though as this assumes the store in question is not taking advantage of its 'supply/pricing' monopoly to shaft their customers (also assuming for the sake of the example their the only store in town) in which case, the customer has the right to address me, as the owner, with their grievances, call me out when i do something with the intent of ripping them off.

which is what disk locked content is. your paying $60 (well I am, not bothered to look and see where you live yet) for that disk, and every thing on it.

An example I like to bring up is an indie title called Dungeon Defenders. Cheap core game based around buying a ton of DLC. Some of it was in production upon release and had files in the core game. Others I dont know. I bought what I thought was worth my money. No more no less. To demand the full thing is the act of a child who cannot be trusted to make decisions.

I'd have gone with Dawn of War 2: Retribution, but eh, different tastes .....

'in production' is not the same thing as 'finished content' which is the case here, if they only have like 25% of oh, just to throw out an example, some hot Drow rouge finished but that 25% is on the disk at launch, I'm ok with that, she's not completed. i draw the line when they do that with stuff that is completed and ON the disk.

also, don't mistake me for hating on DLC on the whole, it's a wonderful idea, but they really need to stop abusing it.

I love this arguement going between Draech and Dexter, they're both so stubborn it's providing boundless entertainment. Draech is being more polite though, so naturally I'm siding with him, since I've never really been a fan of [censored].

Draech:

Please point to where my logic is flawed. I dont mind rethinking my position when my opinion isn't logically consistent.

Your logic isn't flawed one bit.

Your constrained view of the whole picture is the flaw. You're unable to look at this from the perspective of the average consumer who doesn't have a programmer's wage to pay for their lives and still have enough money to buy a little entertainment to keep themselves from going insane.

Now please, don't bother responding to me because I really didn't want to get into this debate with you. I just saw a point that I didn't think anyone else was going to make. Let Dexter argue for me if he cares enough.

Lunar Templar:
-snipping

Now I think I know where our different view point originates.

I dont see it as a single store situation. I see games as a whole. If one game intends to rip me off by nickel and diming me for everything, then ill buy another game. They might be the only ones that sell their dlc/game but they have to compete with a myriad of other games for my time. Quality is ofc an issue, but the gaming market is so well developer that quality is out there in abundance. It has been years since bought a bad game.

The digtal market has been kind to me. With Steam, Gog, stardock and even origin I found that it isn't my money that is the limiting factor anymore. It is my time. And if they charge 10$ for a 5 hour unlock. You know what? I can get that somewhere else cheaper.

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