Risen 2 - All DLC unlockable using console

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To be fair to the developer/publisher...all these DLCs were part of collectors or special editions or reward for preordering...they weren't meant to be DLC that was created after the game launched.

It was still quite stupid of them to put it on the disc and make it so readily available...

Greg Waller:
Dexter111 wins.
Draech... you need to go back and read this thread objectively, bro. You are so wrong it hurts my feelings to watch you pound yourself like this. Just sayin'

And one last quick thought.

Where have gone the good old days of gaming when one could buy a software title and know that what was on the disk was it. There would be no patches, no new content, no nothing. Just the game. All of it.

Remember expansion packs? Those were the days. They were like DLC, except the devs weren't lazy. No "$10 for a new costume", it was more like "Hey, totally new map editor, new campaigns, new mechanics, and new factions for AoE 2! Oh, and have some extra map types and game modes as well."

Is it wrong that the old cliche' "Possession is 9/10ths of the law." popped into my head when I read the topic title?

As for the "Cut-and-Resold" argument...yeah, that's been happening for a while now. It's just pathetic how so many have either rationalized or attempted to otherwise defend that practice.

Fact is: These companies have a right to sell their software in chunks and to charge what they want for it.
They have a right to sell you nothing but the opening and ending credits and charge you extra for every thing in between.

But more importantly: *YOU* have the right to walk away and not do business with them.

Oh, sure, you also have a right to make complaints about the DLC, but the truth is that as long as on-disc/preloaded-DLC continues to turn easy profits, they have absolutely no reason to listen to you.

Draech:

Syzygy23:

Draech:

That is the idiocy of the whole thing. Just because it is on the disk doesn't mean it was free. It is their prerogative on how they will sell their games.

That it uses batteries does't mean "batteries included". Capcom did a somewhat crappy thing of making a lot of commercials and trailers without telling that the chars shown are sold separately, but when we are informed of what we are and arn't buying I dont really see the problem.

I already BOUGHT the disc. I OWN everything ON that disc. It's their fault if they were dumb enough to leave the DLC on there.

Do you own the right to change the data so you dont have to use a Reg Key?
Do you own the right to edit the data and use it for a different purpose (IE use engine to make a different game)?

Actually yes. As long as you don't distribute the game or anything contained in it, the disk is legally yours as well as everything on it. You're basically saying that if I bought a computer for $1000, but to be able to use my AEIOU keys, I need to pay Microsoft some more money, that's perfectly reasonable. I mean, they only offered me a computer, it doesn't matter whether I have vowel keys or not, I can't use them unless I pay extra right?

Dexter111:
So apparently both story islands and the pirate clothes DLC are already part of the game:

So there goes any doubt that the DLCs weren't "cut out" from the game.

the 'dlc' is actually only the audio files.
but you could enable subtitles to see/read the 'downloadable content'.

dlc is fucking weird.

accipitre:

Greg Waller:
Dexter111 wins.
Draech... you need to go back and read this thread objectively, bro. You are so wrong it hurts my feelings to watch you pound yourself like this. Just sayin'

And one last quick thought.

Where have gone the good old days of gaming when one could buy a software title and know that what was on the disk was it. There would be no patches, no new content, no nothing. Just the game. All of it.

Remember expansion packs? Those were the days. They were like DLC, except the devs weren't lazy. No "$10 for a new costume", it was more like "Hey, totally new map editor, new campaigns, new mechanics, and new factions for AoE 2! Oh, and have some extra map types and game modes as well."

fallout 3 fucked it up.
they sold expansion packs as dlc.
now almost nobody knows the difference.

plus oblivion and the stupid horse armour.
it showed the publishers and developers what they can do.
they tested the boundaries in how much swag and crap gamers will accept as new content, worth a price.

Draech:
So far I have found my logic to be sound.

All of us find our own logic sound. It's in peer review (which I'll admit, at this time you hadn't gotten much) that people decide who actually made the better points. See also: the ending of Mass Effect 3.

OT: I'm not much of a consumer awareness activist, but I wasn't interested in this game anyway and this certainly hasn't made me any more interested in it.

Alright Devs you want to put DLC on Disc thats wonderful for PC gmers not so much for consoles but ehh screw you if your going to charge for anything on disc.
Seriously this shit needs to stop and all of the gamers out here defending this stuff grow a spine and don't get stepped on by publishers and devs your one of the biggest problems with the industry right now.

Draech:
Ill just not buy their games.

The thing is, your argument boils down to:
"A homeless fellow asked me for money today. I smiled at him and turned up the volume on my Phone, so I couldn't hear what he was saying. Problem solved."

While other people would rather like to do something about it and live in an environment that is more healthy and proper for everyone.
You're just whisking off the entire ethical and moral component of the argument as if it wasn't there at all.

Draech:

Murmillos:
.

The thing is this isn't unheard of in business.

Gillette sells cheap razors to sell you razor blades. Encourage a long term customer.

HP puts chips in their ink cartridges so it is nearly impossible to get an unoriginal ink cartridge.

We (gaming community as a whole) oppose this as if it was a new way to make business. It really isn't.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. I'm not sure even how you can compare a mass produced item (that is partially unlimited in volume), vrs something that is very specifically tailored (a game). Or how you can compare something that has a lock out chip to prevent people from using cheap knock-off ink rather then their own, to a game.

My only point was, in the past, most past $expansions and even $DLC's felt fair, in regards to content, post launch time released and price. Now, $DLC are ready by the time (and in some blunders - before) the main game comes out. Now, most $DLC's don't appear fair in either content, time or price. If a developer/publisher pushes this fairness boundary, people may stop feeling entitled to buy their games.
Most apologists say "well, its not part of the core experience, so you can't demand it!" to which I say "Just what is the 'core experience'? Why is this side mission in the game, but this one DLC."
And look, DLC's can be designed by 3 ways; (1) 120% planned from the very start, (2) a neat idea that is cut due to feature creep lock out - but still interesting enough to devote post launch resources into, (3) or a planned feature that wasn't critical enough to be kept in game, but post support launch can correct.
Unless you helped make that game, you have no more say to somebody else in what content was critical, or cut for extra $$ for the player base.

Dexter111:
Snip

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter how easy it is to unlock software. If you didn't pay for software that a publisher requires payment for, you're still pirating.

Hell, they could put all DLC on the disc, not lock it in any way, make it fully accessible on the menu, put a note in the game saying that you are not allowed to use the DLC until you send them 15 dollars, and you would be in the wrong if you played it without paying for it.

Now I'm not saying that behavior of that nature is consumer friendly, but that is the current state of software. You are not allowed to use it if they say you have to pay for it to use it and you don't pay. It does not matter how well protected the software is.

Why isn't this thread locked, and the OP banhammered? The fact that The Escapist is allowing this type of thread should piss a lot of companies off.

Working around a companies decision for implementing the release of a product is kewl now? It's a fucking skin, and extra 'dungeon'?!?!?!

This is the same as pirating IMO.

Hey guys, wanna know how to get stuff for free? Who gives a shit if the people who made it want it to be sold. It's kewl to do a work around!

Lets start linking TPB and megaupload and everyone else that uses the web to get shit for free instead of paying??

Seriously, some people are less than zero. Wannabe righteous, eye for an eye shit, really pisses me off.

*hits Report button

I'd love it if Dexter111 ever released something for sale... That's my biggest gripe I guess. People who want to give something away for free have every right to do so. But it's when you want to sell things, and people steal it, that really grinds my gears.

Who are you to tell someone they can't sell something? Who are you to show people how to steal?

/angry drunken rant, knee jerk

I logged in for the first time in a long time for this discussion.

If you sell me a briefcase, and you forgot that you accidentally left a few thousand in it, its my briefcase and the law says its my briefcase because you sold it to me. Therefore everything in this briefcase is mine Now if you wanna sell me stickers to slap on my briefcase that's all fine and dandy but the law isn't gonna make me give you the money back, because you're an idiot.

Is it petty? Yeah.
But I think after Bioware, Capcom, EA, Activision-Blizzard, and now these idiots, I think the industry gave us reason to be exceedingly petty.

Edit: Anyone who plays PC games knows about consoles, Elder Scrolls, Fallout 3, Vampire the Masquerade. Its simply how you activate cheat codes.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/615805-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/cheats

We don't have to like it but on disk dlc is not something we have a right to just cause its on the disk. When we buy a game we don't own the data and files the game is composed of. We own the storage media that is the physical disk and we are licensed to use the content on it. If they actually sold us the files to do with as we saw fit we could make copies and give them away screwing over the game company and everyone involved. So if they give us the license for just some of the content on the disk and not all of it then that is fine and you have gotten what you paid for.

Once again you don't have to like it but hey it is what it is.
You don't buy software you just get a license to use it.

Draech:

Syzygy23:

Draech:

That is the idiocy of the whole thing. Just because it is on the disk doesn't mean it was free. It is their prerogative on how they will sell their games.

That it uses batteries does't mean "batteries included". Capcom did a somewhat crappy thing of making a lot of commercials and trailers without telling that the chars shown are sold separately, but when we are informed of what we are and arn't buying I dont really see the problem.

I already BOUGHT the disc. I OWN everything ON that disc. It's their fault if they were dumb enough to leave the DLC on there.

Do you own the right to change the data so you dont have to use a Reg Key?
Do you own the right to edit the data and use it for a different purpose (IE use engine to make a different game)?

Yes to both.

Game cracks are by no means illegal and are actually widely accepted, especially in the case of retarded companies who like their always online DRM. So long as you are not using it to crack a game obtained through copyright infringement its golden.

And yes you can use the data for a different purpose.
Mechwarrior Living Legends (Crysis) http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/

Angels Fall First (Unreal Tournament 3) http://www.affuniverse.com/home/

For example. Unless mods are teh piracy as well?!

Keith Reedy:
We don't have to like it but on disk dlc is not something we have a right to just cause its on the disk. When we buy a game we don't own the data and files the game is composed of. We own the storage media that is the physical disk and we are licensed to use the content on it. If they actually sold us the files to do with as we saw fit we could make copies and give them away screwing over the game company and everyone involved. So if they give us the license for just some of the content on the disk and not all of it then that is fine and you have gotten what you paid for.

Once again you don't have to like it but hey it is what it is.
You don't buy software you just get a license to use it.

This is a slippery slope, but I honestly think if you buy a game, the game and its contents are your property just like any music CD. This is still a new and grey area with both sides being way too far apart. A few greedy people up on the top of the game companies, like Bobby Kotick, are ticking off gamers. This polarizes the community and when the community receives pushback from other members of the community the members who felt betrayed become more extreme. When they become more extreme, the defenders become more extreme.

First of all, people have to realize that just because a few higher ups really wanna turn you upside down and shake the money out of your pocket, there are some people who just want to make entertainment. You have to be a little less aggressive and more willing to make your mark through silence, through extreme actions like turning away from products or companies that offend you. If you push too hard, too loudly, you will simply make them more defensive.

Secondly, the defenders, and the companies their defending have to realize that the first group wants to be treated fairly. You can't simply tell someone that this is too complex to understand and slap their hands away from the table. Explaining the processes of Day 1 DLC and other such things will abate much rage. The first group feels their rights as the consumer has been reduced and reduced until we are nothing more then paying for an extended demo that you can take back any time.

This argument has devolved into something resembling the current US political situation. Both sides are so far apart that they refuse to work together. Both sides are now actively trying to insult and discredit the other to the point that what you claim to be important is taking a backseat. Yes, both sides have bickered so much that the games are less important then the argument.

Draech:

Syzygy23:

Draech:

That is the idiocy of the whole thing. Just because it is on the disk doesn't mean it was free. It is their prerogative on how they will sell their games.

That it uses batteries does't mean "batteries included". Capcom did a somewhat crappy thing of making a lot of commercials and trailers without telling that the chars shown are sold separately, but when we are informed of what we are and arn't buying I dont really see the problem.

I already BOUGHT the disc. I OWN everything ON that disc. It's their fault if they were dumb enough to leave the DLC on there.

Do you own the right to change the data so you dont have to use a Reg Key?
Do you own the right to edit the data and use it for a different purpose (IE use engine to make a different game)?

Again, I OWN THE DISC. I can do what I want with what's on that disc.

Really though, does anyone care about this? I mean, does anyone actually OWN this awful game?

This whole debate is pointless. If you buy a game and get your moneys worth of entertainment, ya did good nothin else matters. If ya dont like on disk dlc dont buy it even if ya do buy the game if ya dont buy the dlc the publisher will get tha message.

immortalfrieza:
BTW, why do they do this disc locked and day 1 DLC crap anyway? If I were going to pull garbage like this (not to say I would) I wouldn't disc lock content or day 1 DLC it, I'd wait a few weeks first before releasing said content as true DLC, and so I'd at least look like I wasn't deliberately screwing my customer even though I actually would be. FYI, if I were to actually make a game with DLC (and I do plan on making video games for a living one of these days) I'd give out all DLC for free to anyone that legitmately purchased my game new and still possessed the orignal copy for as long as it took for me to make the DLC, only the used gamers would have to pay, and for them it would be for a pittance, $5 for everything tops. In other words, I'd reward loyalty and for everyone else give out my extra content for hardly anything.

It's likely because they don't consider the implications e.g. think that nobody will find out or just forget "features" like this. Publishers generally don't seem to think in "customer satisfaction" either, they're just staring at balance sheets and see how much more money they could likely make if they sell x amounts of DLC at y price.
In the case of Risen 2, it might even have technical reasons e.g. apparently the world maps are extremely hard to change in retrospect and they'd have to recompile the entire areas and they likely thought this will stick.

immortalfrieza:
Making DLC takes time, certification for consoles take time (and often, DLC's made while waiting for console certification can be added to PC disks...) but regarded of time needed, the appearance of DLC still needs to appear "fair".
A few costume reskins, a small bonus level, some unique weapons on launch day as DLC appears fair (except to those who have "I NEED EVERYTHING" OCD). Most bigger day-one DLC's need to be free, to appear "fair". Cost for these DLC's should be included within the core game budget "new game" cost.
Much bigger paid DLC's should be at least 1-2 months after main game launch (even if completed back at core game) to appear "fair".

No "Day1 DLC" shouldn't appear "fair" to anyone, because it really isn't. The only practice I regard as valid is if they simply work on more content after the game has been released and they've finished their tasks on a completely new budget, everything else is cut out content from the release of a game.
It's just that some publishers/developers are more experienced in deceit and PR and make it seem like they're doing something FOR you, while others are clumsy and screw up and there's the extremes like Capcom that frankly couldn't give a shit and don't see where the problem is.

Games in general have varying degrees of development times, team sizes , scopes, budgets etc. but that's their choice, it ultimately shouldn't matter to the consumer if a game is Duke Nukem Forever in development for 15 years, Diablo III for 8 years, Dragon Age: Origins or Alan Wake for 5, Newest Call of Duty and Mass Effect for 2 or Dragon Age 2 for 1 year and their respective team sizes apart from their quality at release. The publisher could at any one point give any of these games either more or less time and budget depending on if they deem it right and it shouldn't matter to the consumer as that is a publishing/developer decision. If they really needed character or area X and Y in a game they could just give them another month till it is done and release it then. It wouldn't be the first time ever and unprecedented a game had a delay.

The "Day 1 DLC" of today (and even most of the month 1 or 2 DLC) has been planned and likely worked on alongside for likely most, at least half of the development time of the initial game. Things like stories, character and gameplay concepts, dialogues, motion capturing etc. usually all get done in one swing at that.
The only reason you can "understand companies need for DLC" is because their marketing and PR has worked on you, it shouldn't be up to you to warrant 3-4 more employees or a slightly smaller or larger development budget, but the publishers and any DLC release on "Day One" is a hidden cost and cut of the content you might have gotten at your expense and publishers are increasingly taking advantage of your "understanding".

For instance:

By either releasing games before they are ready or cutting out entire chapters from your game like in "Assassin's Creed 2" with Battle of Forli/Bonfire of Vanities: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/12/16/assassins-creed-2-dlc-detailed-fills-in-missing-chapters-adds/

By adding features to your game that should have been there all along and had been shown off during development like free roam and mini missions in "Mafia II": http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9044384

By clearly cutting out entire parts of the story of a game to offer them as "Exclusive Content" to retailers or making you pay for it afterwards like in "L.A. Noire": http://kotaku.com/5806885/la-noire-dlc-offers-players-new-cases-to-play-new-ways-to-pay

By outright locking out content already complete from the disk to make you pay for "unlocking" it:
http://beefjack.com/news/street-fighter-iv-dlc-disk/
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/289501/marvel-vs-capcom-3-dlc-already-on-disc/
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Street-Fighter-X-Tekken-DLC-Unlock-Guide-Xbox-360-40557.html

Or even by actually selling you an ending to your game like in "Asura's Wrath": http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Want-Real-Ending-Asura-Wrath-Cough-Up-6-99-40917.html

It should be considered your duty as a good consumer to stand against that and generally being gouged and not show understanding for huge multinational conglomerates holding a near monopoly on the market, which are growing and growing anyway:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/08/video-game-industry-growth-runs-circles-around-us-economy.ars
http://venturebeat.com/2010/05/25/video-game-industry-to-hit-70-billion-by-2015-but-growth-will-slow/

If they deemed they're not getting enough money for their investment they could always increase the price of the product and let the market regulate itself.
There's luckily also a certain pushback against these practices that are getting out of hand even from certain developers and parts of the industry:
http://kotaku.com/5801811/all-witcher-2-dlc-will-be-free-developer-assures
http://n4g.com/news/986714/cd-projekt-co-founder-on-disc-dlc-is-pathetic/com
http://www.edge-online.com/news/harada-tekken-will-never-have-paid-dlc-characters
http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=61400
http://www.dealspwn.com/bastion-developer-dlc-ruins-immersion-96089
http://gamersxtreme.org/2011/11/18/nintendo-stands-tall-against-dlc/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/97877-Rebellion-Says-No-Justification-for-DLC-Already-on-Discs

destroyer383:
I agree with the majority of the posts made by Draech in this thread. Even if the content was a continuation of the story accessing this content without a licence for it is still technically piracy.

Elamdri:
Irrelevant. It doesn't matter how easy it is to unlock software. If you didn't pay for software that a publisher requires payment for, you're still pirating.

You know what's technically piracy?

image

This game is actually about piracy, so yeah:

image

As for what you are actually meaning to say, no using console commands in a game isn't against any forms of copyright infringement regulated under any copyright law in any country of the world I know of (even in some of the most fucked up cases like the US).
For it to be infringing on anything you would have to either:
a) break copy protection mechanisms
b) spread or modify files of the game you have no legal rights to.
Enabling the in-game console and using built-in features isn't impinging on any of that, so stop bringing it up.

Dexter111:

As for what you are actually meaning to say, no using console commands in a game isn't against any forms of copyright infringement regulated under any copyright law in any country of the world I know of (even in some of the most fucked up cases like the US).
For it to be infringing on anything you would have to either:
a) break copy protection mechanisms
b) spread or modify files of the game you have no legal rights to.
Enabling the in-game console and using built-in features isn't impinging on any of that, so stop bringing it up.

Except that you are using software which you do not own a license to use. You only have a license to use the main part of the game. The Downloadable content is subject to a separate agreement. If you didn't pay for that license, then it doesn't matter how you access the content, the act of accessing is the bad act.

Hmm, I don't know if I know what I'm talking about, but all this talk about "on-disk DLC" and "DLC" made me make an account so I could comment about something which I haven't seen anyone else point out yet.

(This is uneducated ramblings from someone, who just want to get clarified about certain things, so that I can better follow this interesting thread/topic. Also, maybe, try to get some more viewing points into this.)

1.
"On-disk DLC" and "DLC" aren't the same thing, right? If there's "On-disk DLC" in a game you buy, then in my mind that can't be "DLC", since it's already on the disk, right? So the whole concept of "On-disk DLC" is pretty much usless, if I'm right.
If only half of the "DLC" is on the disk and you'll have to download the rest, isn't that pretty much a waste of disk space, since you won't be able to enjoy the "DLC" part, unless you have a connection to the internet, tough it might be there to speed up the download progress or something similar.

2.
"DLC" stands for "Downloadable Content", right?
Doesn't the fact that the "DLC" is already on the disk make that content 'original' and not downloadable, right? (Not sure how to continue my ramblings (or whatever it is I'm talking/asking about) here so I'll just jump forward and ramble about something else that was on my mind)

3.
Isn't the purpose of "DLC" to be new and downloaded in the future, after the game has been released, and to increase the longevity of that game?
In other terms isn't it exactly the same as an expansion-pack, but instead of having to buy the new content from a store, you can just buy it from whatever site is selling it, to your account, and then download it at a later point when you feel like you want to play it, with your account, right?

4.
Hasn't it always been so that, if you buy a game, you can do whatever you want with everything that is on that disk, no matter what, as long as you don't make copies of the game and try to sell them, or share the original contents of it on the internet. Tough isn't it Ok to spread your own creations you've created with the help of the contents that was on the disk, as long as the creators of the game hasn't said otherwies and you don't try to sell the content you've made with the tools that someone else made, right?

Thank you for reading this and I hope someone will give me a good clarification on these things.
-Alliancewolf

Dexter111:

(a lot of what Draech says makes me a sad panda though, I secretly hope he's just young but there's other people too :O)

Aha.... I knew it, I knew you were a panda!!!!

OT: I hate the way games are going nowadays, with all this DLC bull crap and the mandatory multiplayer. Gahh!!... It makes me so angry.... I just wanna.... I wanna...... Grrrrrrr..... *head explode*

Elamdri:
Except that you are using software which you do not own a license to use. You only have a license to use the main part of the game. The Downloadable content is subject to a separate agreement. If you didn't pay for that license, then it doesn't matter how you access the content, the act of accessing is the bad act.

  • Risen 2 and a lot of other Single player games don't have sprawling EULAs or Terms of Services as certain other games, that's usually more of a thing for MMOs and certain companies with large legal departments like EA or Activision/Blizzard

    From what I could find it's just a short segment like so, although I couldn't find the specific one for Risen 2 anywhere (this is from games like Dead Island or Nail'd published by the same company):

    RIGHT OF USE
    By purchasing this software, the user is guaranteed the non-exclusive personal
    right to install and use the software on a single computer. This right cannot be
    transferred, leased or loaned. Any other use without the copyright holder's prior
    consent is prohibited. The creation of backup copies is only allowed within the
    scope of legal regulations.
    The program or parts thereof may not be passed on, licensed, leased, altered,
    translated, adapted or published, whether with or without cost. Decompiling,
    disassembling or otherwise converting the software back to a universally readable
    form, either wholly or in part, is expressly prohibited. Any person who duplicates,
    distributes or publicly reproduces the software without permission in any way, or
    assists another person in doing so, is liable to prosecution.
    Unauthorised duplication of the software can be punished with a prison term of up
    to five years or with a fine. Copied media duplicated without permission may be
    confiscated by the prosecutor's office and destroyed.
    In the event of violation of the agreements made here, in order to protect its
    intellectual roperty, Koch Media expressly reserves the right to take all legal
    measures that the licensor is legally entitled to for the protection of its intellectual
    property.

  • EULAs aren't legally binding contracts and in large parts of the world (for instance most of Europe) EULAs are void if they aren't presented to the buyer before he concludes the purchase contract.
    For instance in Photoshop they could write that you are never allowed to use the Select Tool or a simple double-click, but that doesn't make it a statutory violation of anything and if they want to prevent you from doing it they can either go before court or they can break their contract with you and hope that you don't go before court.
    That's why a large part of these cases are also settled outside of courtrooms since they don't want to lose any of their imaginary rights by a legal verdict they have to abide by.
    They could also write that they get your firstborn child, but that doesn't mean you have to abide by any of it or it is considered lawful, they have to abide by local laws as much as you do.
  • There's also a stipulation that if any part of a EULA goes against applicable law it is also considered null and void in its entirety over here
  • We aren't quite at the point where companies can directly write laws, but thanks to people willing and ready to forego any and all consumer rights to argue and protect the interests of some corporation we are on the best way there.

Talk about pushing your damn luck. There are very few people interested in risen 2 as it is, and this is only going to make matters worse.

Dexter111:

  • EULAs aren't legally binding contracts and in large parts of the world (for instance most of Europe) EULAs are void if they aren't presented to the buyer before he concludes the purchase contract.
    For instance in Photoshop they could write that you are never allowed to use the Select Tool or a simple double-click, but that doesn't make it a statutory violation of anything.
    They could also write that they get your firstborn child, but that doesn't mean you have to abide by any of it or it is considered lawful.
  • There's also a stipulation that if any part of a EULA goes against applicable law it is also considered null and void in its entirety over here
  • We aren't quite at the point where companies can directly write laws, but thanks to people willing and ready to forego any and all consumer rights to argue and protect the interests of some corporation we are on the best way there.
  • [/list]

    Those corporate apologists are fuckin' retarded. They don't realize that they are the biggest problem and pretty much the reason game companies and other corporations get away with the shit they could never get away with 20 years ago.

    FelixG:

    Draech:

    Syzygy23:

    I already BOUGHT the disc. I OWN everything ON that disc. It's their fault if they were dumb enough to leave the DLC on there.

    Do you own the right to change the data so you dont have to use a Reg Key?
    Do you own the right to edit the data and use it for a different purpose (IE use engine to make a different game)?

    Yes to both.

    Game cracks are by no means illegal and are actually widely accepted, especially in the case of retarded companies who like their always online DRM. So long as you are not using it to crack a game obtained through copyright infringement its golden.

    And yes you can use the data for a different purpose.
    Mechwarrior Living Legends (Crysis) http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/

    Angels Fall First (Unreal Tournament 3) http://www.affuniverse.com/home/

    For example. Unless mods are teh piracy as well?!

    Factually false. You are not permitted to to do what you suggest your are doing.

    And both the examples you linked both have bought licences to use the engine.

    Syzygy23:

    Draech:

    Syzygy23:

    I already BOUGHT the disc. I OWN everything ON that disc. It's their fault if they were dumb enough to leave the DLC on there.

    Do you own the right to change the data so you dont have to use a Reg Key?
    Do you own the right to edit the data and use it for a different purpose (IE use engine to make a different game)?

    Again, I OWN THE DISC. I can do what I want with what's on that disc.

    Factually false mate. You are not allowed to do either of the examples I listed.

    Dexter111:

    Draech:
    Ill just not buy their games.

    The thing is, your argument boils down to:
    "A homeless fellow asked me for money today. I smiled at him and turned up the volume on my Phone, so I couldn't hear what he was saying. Problem solved."

    While other people would rather like to do something about it and live in an environment that is more healthy and proper for everyone.
    You're just whisking off the entire ethical and moral component of the argument as if it wasn't there at all.

    I like your emotional pleas, thise time with a false analogy.

    Wnat to hear a correct one?

    You go into a burger joint and throw a hissy fit because you are told that bacon in your burger is an extra. You always had bacon in your burger and now you demand the bacon because it is right there in the fridge. You then stomp in and take the bacon and call your self a hero as a result of it.

    You are not an activist.

    You are not a hero.

    You are a guy who cannot understand that it says right there on the sign that "Bacon is 1$" and insist anyone who can see that is corporate sellout.

    That is your position. Not the freedom fighter.

    Draech:

    FelixG:

    Draech:

    Do you own the right to change the data so you dont have to use a Reg Key?
    Do you own the right to edit the data and use it for a different purpose (IE use engine to make a different game)?

    Yes to both.

    Game cracks are by no means illegal and are actually widely accepted, especially in the case of retarded companies who like their always online DRM. So long as you are not using it to crack a game obtained through copyright infringement its golden.

    And yes you can use the data for a different purpose.
    Mechwarrior Living Legends (Crysis) http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/

    Angels Fall First (Unreal Tournament 3) http://www.affuniverse.com/home/

    For example. Unless mods are teh piracy as well?!

    Factually false. You are not permitted to to do what you suggest your are doing.

    Do show me where it is illegal to make a crack for a game. I would be interested in seeing this.

    Alliancewolf:
    Hmm, I don't know if I know what I'm talking about, but all this talk about "on-disk DLC" and "DLC" made me make an account so I could comment about something which I haven't seen anyone else point out yet.

    (This is uneducated ramblings from someone, who just want to get clarified about certain things, so that I can better follow this interesting thread/topic. Also, maybe, try to get some more viewing points into this.)

    No, that's pretty much the crux of the problem, there are so many various levels of additional content, in type, development and delivery method and such, and people have been using various labels interchangeably, causing confusion.

    Is it DownLoadable Content or Disc-Locked Content? There are some reasons why addition content is planned and included on the disc at manufacture time (disc-locked), mostly due to avoid fragmentation of the player base if it's in a multiplayer mode.

    Was it cut content that was finished after the game has been locked down, during the polish and certification period? Planned and developed new after the game has been locked down? Planned and developed alongside? Most of the time it's the former two if it is for download, the 3rd type if it is on-disc, maybe offered as part of a CE or publisher exclusive.

    Is it offered as a release day pre-order "Thanks for buying our game new!", retailer exclusive, or special edition extra, or do you have to pay for it? Making games is expensive, most publishers and studios wouldn't mind it if retailers supplemented the budget for low risk, low dev items.

    Is it merely cosmetic costumes, new weapons or abilities, a 1hr quest, a 3hr quest, a new area to explore, a companion NPC? The more complex, longer the dev time.

    How much is the DLC? What's the balance between the price and the complexity of the content? $15 or $0.99 for a costume? I've seen people paying tons for crate keys for a unique hat in TF2, or donating $100 for the Japan tsunami relief fund because of said hat.

    Some have various levels of acceptance for what they're willing to pay for, others think any additional stuff should be free regardless of how or when it was made, or what is its delivery method.

    At the same time, you can estimate that only a small % of the customer base will EVER buy DLC, and the older the game is, less of the player base will buy it several months down the line. That's why there's a lot of focus on Day 1 and early offerings, the whole "strike while the iron is hot". And why expansion packs are slowly being phased out nowadays, it's a high risk, low reward, while DLC of any type nowadays is at least low risk, as I can't say what the reward level is since no one here is privy to the financial records, but I'd wager it is in-between low and moderate reward.

    FelixG:

    Draech:

    FelixG:

    Yes to both.

    Game cracks are by no means illegal and are actually widely accepted, especially in the case of retarded companies who like their always online DRM. So long as you are not using it to crack a game obtained through copyright infringement its golden.

    And yes you can use the data for a different purpose.
    Mechwarrior Living Legends (Crysis) http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/

    Angels Fall First (Unreal Tournament 3) http://www.affuniverse.com/home/

    For example. Unless mods are teh piracy as well?!

    Factually false. You are not permitted to to do what you suggest your are doing.

    Do show me where it is illegal to make a crack for a game. I would be interested in seeing this.

    This is going to be very hard to find the law that deals with cracks, especially since laws written on the subject matter are meant to deal with obtaining data you arn't allowed to have. So far it is a loophole in copyright law.

    Then again that wasn't what I argued. I didn't say no-CD I said no registration key.

    Draech:

    FelixG:

    Draech:

    Factually false. You are not permitted to to do what you suggest your are doing.

    Do show me where it is illegal to make a crack for a game. I would be interested in seeing this.

    This is going to be very hard to find the law that deals with cracks, especially since laws written on the subject matter are meant to deal with obtaining data you arn't allowed to have. So far it is a loophole in copyright law.

    Then again that wasn't what I argued. I didn't say no-CD I said no registration key.

    It is not a loophole, and there is no legality issue with it. You are just making things up, because these things can be applied to products you legally purchased.

    FelixG:

    Draech:

    FelixG:

    Do show me where it is illegal to make a crack for a game. I would be interested in seeing this.

    This is going to be very hard to find the law that deals with cracks, especially since laws written on the subject matter are meant to deal with obtaining data you arn't allowed to have. So far it is a loophole in copyright law.

    Then again that wasn't what I argued. I didn't say no-CD I said no registration key.

    It is not a loophole, and there is no legality issue with it. You are just making things up, because these things can be applied to products you legally purchased.

    In that case no one would have gone to jail for it.
    http://www.actlab.utexas.edu/~aviva/compsec/cracker/crakhome.html
    http://www.actlab.utexas.edu/~aviva/compsec/cracker/whocrack.html
    Still I repeat. I didn't say No-CD cracks. Lot more nebulous area. I said Reg Key.

    Well see...
    I guess this all depends a bit on when and why it was added.

    Games have a set release date (usually) which means sometimes content is still added between the final lock before the game gets forwarded to people who make the physical copies to be sold in stores, and the actual day it comes out. These are supposed to be updates, patches and the like for any bugs or broken content found after the final get go, or even found in the first week after the games release, as thousands of players will beat any QA team any day.

    With the newer model, both in downloading whole games, updates, extra content, ... there is actually almost no reason to have paid dlc in the first half year or so. No one needs extra content for a game that's barely out of its box (or torrent I guess) as the things added in the first few months should be fixes for whatever broke or was'nt added due to time constraints.

    Actual DLC was, at its early stages, nothing more than the expansion packs of old, made to revitalise the game after it had dimmed out a bit, but made so that we didn't even have to physically move from our seats to get it.

    What I can justify in the current model is how buying at certain shops or preordering might give you a fancy new suit in the game. This of course only IF it doesn't cost more.

    What happened in this case was that content that was done already was restricted from the player in such a way as to seem unfinished so they can pretend to be able to justify asking money by claiming they worked so hard on it for the months after the games release. Making the consumer pay for anything more than an optional aesthetic change, especially if it's already on the disc, can't be classified as anything else than pure greed.

    Comparing this all to another part of PC gaming, to even it out, would be hardware.

    Imagine buying a new mouse, specifically made for gaming. it has several new buttons, adjustable weights, etc. (I don't know what you guys are into these days, I happen to have one). In the booklet, it says that certain special features are disabled unless an optional install is done. Well guess what, the install disc for that is right there in the case, available online and can be ordered via phone if you don't have internet and misplaced the disc. All free of charge. This DLC would be a little sticker on the mouse saying: "come buy the disc from us when we're back form spending this money we made from selling several million restricted pieces of hardwae. Yeah it's done already, but papa needs a new car when his tanned self gets back from the luau."

    Draech:

    FelixG:

    Draech:
    This is going to be very hard to find the law that deals with cracks, especially since laws written on the subject matter are meant to deal with obtaining data you arn't allowed to have. So far it is a loophole in copyright law.

    Then again that wasn't what I argued. I didn't say no-CD I said no registration key.

    It is not a loophole, and there is no legality issue with it. You are just making things up, because these things can be applied to products you legally purchased.

    In that case no one would have gone to jail for it.
    http://www.actlab.utexas.edu/~aviva/compsec/cracker/crakhome.html
    http://www.actlab.utexas.edu/~aviva/compsec/cracker/whocrack.html

    You didnt even read the links you posted did you? Reading are hard?

    None of those people were arrested for cracking key-gens and the like, they were all arrested for various crimes. Considering you couldnt be bothered to read allow me to point them out for you, I am just that good of a guy!

    Mark was arrested for phone antics

    Donald was arrested for breaking into a former employers server

    414s were arrested for computer trespassing (And going after nuke secrets lol)

    The German 20 were arrested for treason

    Bill arrested for computer fraud

    John arrested for phone tampering

    Robert for breaking the god damn internet.

    Its...its amazing...not a one cracked reg keys on videogames! So...where was this proof you were going to show me?

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