Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider... Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT | |
(Nathan Drake IS a crazed gunman) What's really embaressing is that your concerns aren't actually being adressed to the guy who started this forum. I have said this once, I will say it again. I AM NOT A SECRETARY. I AM NOT RELAYING INFORMATION TO THE OP. COMPLAIN TO HIM OR HER, I AM JUST AGREEING WITH THEM. Why am I getting more responses from you people than the person who started this thread? Since when did I become popular? | |
Look, Oh yea of the many articles, my problem is the way they are handling this. The fact that they have made a point of putting this Section into their statements is a mishandling. The fact we know that it's going to happen is the problem. If it had been a shocking twist in the game THEN it may have been more acceptable and easy to justify as a plot device. But they are using Rape as a marketing tool. Do you realise how much publicity they've gotten over this debacle? It's intentional, they mentioned it in their statement Specifically to get this kind of re-action, and therein lies the problem. My opinions on them being mysoginst comes from the "Lara needs protecting" statement, swiftly followed by the whole rape thing. Anyone (You seem intelligent, You must have seen this) can spot the connection. Lara is a woman. Someone will try to rape her. Lara needs protection from the Nasty men that you, the male demographic of our audience (Because that's all thats left, I don't know a single girl gamer who's still going to buy this). Thus mysoginism. There you go, My opinions in a conscise manner. I fully realise that My interpretation of this is not going to be the same as everyones, but can I point out, I'm not the OP's secretary. | |
No...that video does matter because the video contains the big bad "rape scene" that people are getting all up in arms about. See that bit where the dude touches her ass and kisses her neck? That's it. That then leads to a struggle and she kills a person for the first time and we as the player get to see how she deals with something like that. | |
For one thing, I said it doesn't matter as much as what one of the creators is saying. I'm not going to be interested in a game that's unappealing to me. And yes, I've seen it. It's still unacceptable, and there are better ways to add drama and inspire spines in female characters that don't involve rape and/or molestation. It's not okay. Furthermore, your arguments aren't helping your case in the least; I'm still not going to be interested in this game. | |
Because realistic situations in games that add character depth aren't ok? Everyone needs to be a invulnerable uber-tank sper-soliders that is basically a gun with legs? This one really one, 10 second incident, in an entire game about things making lara a badass, it isn't like this is THE thing, its one in a series of things. | |
There's a difference between "realistic situations" and "look what we did to add drama! Oh, and do you know Lara Croft is female?" which is what the interviews are coming off as. And the "invulnerable uber tank" is hardly what I'm saying - note that I pointed out vulnerability in someone as young and inexperienced as Lara is in the reboot is only to be expected.. Resorting to ridiculous, unfounded extremes isn't helping your argument, either. | |
I know right? God forbid the makers try and define a character! It seriously boggles my mind. You've got people saying that games aren't taken seriously, they're immature etc. Then when you have a game that tries to be realistic/serious people start saying "Nope. Nope. Can't do that. Too serious a subject". | |
I actually agree wholeheartedly. Now what exactly is unrealistic about a young, attractive girl trapped on a tropical island being captured by a bunch of pirates/smugglers/whatever they are and then proceeding to be leered at or felt up by one of them? | |
You all need to get some fucking perspective. For fucks sake, read around on this Forum for a week and you'll get the feeling that EVERYTHING is misogonistic. Does she have large breasts - Misogonistic wank fantasy for guys Does she have more modest breasts - Misogonistic because it paints women with large breasts as bad Is she incapable? - Misogonistic because GIRL POWER!!! Is she capable? - Why is she so self-relaint!? That's not feminine!! MISOGONY!!!! Is she interested in the opposite sex? - Misogony because OBJECTIFIMACAITIONZ!!! Is she not interested in the opposite sex? - WHY U NO LIKE TEH SEXXX!? DIS R DISCRIMANABATE TEH WOMENZ DAT LIKE DA SEXINGZ!!! Is no rape implied? - WHY SHE NO HAZ CARAKTUR-ARKZ! Is rape implied? - HARGNPHLARGNMISOGONYCHUTHLUGAAAAARHSL JASIFNIAWN!!!!!!!!!!! Grow the fuck up. | |
That is, quite literally, not how they came off as at all. They came off as "here is a character that went through rough shit and became a badass because of it", they could easily replace lara with a male character like Nathan Drake and NOTHING would change.
Its kinda hard not to when you argument is equally ridiculous. | |
Sorry, but have you actually read the interviews? You know, the ones where the executive producer is making a Big Deal out of how vulnerable and fragile she is, pointing out the the players will want to "protect" her? I understand that she's going to be, quite realistically, terrified. That's only natural in a situation like that. However, while rape can be handled tastefully and carefully, the way the producer's handled it here is why I'm explaining the situation as such.
Given that smugglers and other criminals using ransoms with extra money for the women remaining untouched being ordered does happen in real life, I'm not quite sure where you think my expectations are unrealistic. | |
Other than the implied rape threats, which, I'll agree is too much, I don't see why everyone is up in arms about the game. Yes, Croft was a total badass in her previous outings, but like all heroes, there has to be an origin. This game is it. I believe it's meant to show her transformation into the Croft we all know. | |
I dunno, man, I'm not sure those still sound like things that developer would say if you swap the pronouns. | |
I might actually want to play a Uncharted game if the Dev said that. I hated the Uncharted games cuz I didn't feel anything for Nathan Drake, he didn't need me, hes already a gun with legs. It didn't feel like the game, the thing I'm suppose to be playing, needed me, because it was already established the character is just a uber-boss. And I dont want him to go all Hollywood and come out of it perfectly fine 3 seconds later, and only make passing reference to how it "changed" him despite nothing about him actually changing. | |
Edit | |
Once again, the misinformed hear the word 'rape' and froth at the mouth while putting their fingers in their ears going "laa-laa-laa I'll believe what I make up and I'm going to force you to believe it too." How immature. The developer only used the contexts of 'intended rape' AFTER everybody saw the scene of the intended rape scene to clearly state; "These are the horrors that Lara has to go thru, and you as the player will want to protect her." And that gets taken out of contexts of hey, shes going to get ganged raped and you get to QTE the assault. "gitty gitty goo..." | |
That's what I've been thinking myself... The way this trailer is put out there, it seems like they're trying to tell us a story about how Lara was this sweet innocent girl who got really messed up, and then survived and became a badass action girl. But honestly, I don't think she ever did become a badass action girl. All Lara has ever been is a female that kills man and animal indiscriminately for the sake of personal gain. At least Indianna Jones did it because 'they belong in a museum', Lara just murders people who are clearly worse off financially than she is for the sake of her wallet, or occasionally an 'it's too powerful to be owned' excuse. | |
Well, this was funny. Reading the first post, I have to assume they are being ignorant and patronizing. Why, when they are trying to claim this incarnation is sexist? I'd damn near say projection, but I think it is just misunderstanding. The theme of the game seems to be that of someone starting weak, going through hell, and emerging stronger as a result. This is a common thematic device in storytelling is gender neutral to all extent and purpose. When up in a game, it is not an idea of a male player "protecting and guiding" a female character, it is a player (gender whatever), playing and directing the character (again, gender whatever) as they go through the story that explains how the character changed and became stronger. And it is important to remember that this is a story, a telling of how her character changed and grew from a dramatic experience. The player is not protecting and guiding a weaker gender. They are playing a game with a weaker protagonist. The fact the thread starter seems so hung up on the gender in this comes off as patronizing. Why can't a woman change and go through hell? I hear other posters mentioning this as exploitative (I will agree the depictions of brutality and torture are), yet they seem hung up on it like it is a gender unique aspect. It is exploitative regardless of gender and it feels like concentrating on it like it is an issue of sexism presents the idea they are defending her because of her gender. It isn't the issue, it is the gender the issue affects. Now there are aspects worth mentioning that could be sexist in nature. The wording used on the character interaction. The use of rape. The changing of the character design. The personality prior to the events. These are all understandable aspects to raise concern, but none of them are as bad as they seem in this effect. The first, and I would say most obvious, is the wording of the developers on the game. Now granted I have heard similar descriptions about playing the sims (that you guide, direct, protect from themselves, etc.), I will agree it sounds a little sexist. Who knows, maybe they look at it that way. I do not think it is reflected by the entirety of the team or is the intent of the game itself though. That seems a large leap. The use of rape? Bad taste, and while a predominately female issue (though not always), this seems to pull back more in it being exploitative in general and not merely about female. They want grisly dark and shocking. Torture and rape. It honestly seems done solely for that purpose rather then some underlying sexism. Are the saw films sexist for similarly being exploitative and using female characters? If you say they also use male characters, perhaps we will see men being tortured and the like in the game too. Character change? Well, she looks more human now and less fantasy. That should be a plus. And her personality is toned down quite a bit, understandable difference when using the theme they are, where the character changes. Personality and attitude tend to be something that changes the most during that sort of journey. And since we already know the end result (the attitude people refer to), you got to work backwards to find a change. And obvious change, and one reflected in male protagonists who follow the same theme, is to be unconfident, scared, lack resolve. Hey, look at what they picked for the game... Honestly, I look at this and see a lot of fuss over stupid shit, so much so to the point I think it is detrimental to the ideal of equality among genders. People whine that she is weaker, yet ignore that is a genderless theme trope. They complain about it exploiting her, yet ignore that exploitation would apply in many ways the same way regardless of gender, carrying it on when rape is thrown in, ignoring the habit of using it exploitative i storytelling and instead seeing it as more sexist in nature. They see the role the player takes as one with a gender even when no such gender is truly there (gals and guys alike can play, after all), and they are instead attributing characteristics the player, while guiding the character, will take on to a male identity, an ironic bit of falling for what is claimed of the game itself. Bottom line is this. I think most people raising this much of a stink are reading too far into things and judging things through their own lens, even long before the game itself is released to be judged on it's own merit. Honestly, I'd wait til it is done and sent out before whining, else you start to resemble fools like a certain asshole lawyer who tried to condemn "Bully" because of the history of the game's developer and a lot of preconceived notions. | |
are...are you serious? i never heard the game argue that larger breasts make a person less of a woman. are you saying that just because they wanted to make her more of a character and less of a sex object, by making her proportions more realistic, they are saying people with big boobs are inferior? because thats just stupid. but if you wanna look at this logically, in order for a woman to be as agile and fast as laura needs to be, larger breasts are not helpful. maybe they simply wanted a laura croft who isnt suffering from crippling back problems. as for her being weaker, well its supposed to be a prequel. its supposed to show how laura developed the skills she has. you cant really show skills being developed, if the person already has them from the start. as a feminist and someone who identifies as female, you really seem to be grasping at straws. it almost seems like youre upset that laura isnt as sexualized and want to think of reasons why its sexist to make her more than just a sex object | |
Well personally, it's less that desexualisation is bad, it's the implied admission that she had originally been intended as a sex object. Was she sexualised? Well I guess we know for sure she was now, because they just took steps to reverse it, but taking it all back now just seems like a cop out. These are the guys who made her face look oddly flat for how many games in an effort to remain true to the original appearance in the first game, despite the fact that the whole reason she looked like that was due to technological restraints. Wanna add gritty mature topics to a game? Go right ahead I suppose, but don't gloss over your own previous immaturity in handling the main character. Admit to it, accept the reality that this is what we have to work with now, and move forward. Don't pretend that it never happened, and don't push the character creation slider to the other side of the bar this many games in. It just makes you look like you got better at pretending your mature, rather than having experienced any real development. | |
I don't know, I don't see anything wrong with the idea that since she's a reboot, she should look slightly different than the original. A different boob size isn't an admission that there was anything wrong with the old version (though I do think the first was sexualized, that's not the point). | |
I guess the way I see it is in what they chose to change and what they chose to keep the same. A reboot can certainly do whatever they want in terms of the main character and story, but the way they've gone about it comes off in a negative light for me. When I see they have very specifically altered the main character to conform to what is considered to be a more accurate and mature portrayal of a female it really just tells me that they don't want to admit their prior stance was, shall we say, less enlightened. A person that wants to seem mature changes what they created when they did not want to seem mature into a more acceptable form, and pretends that the change they've made completely excuses the past. A person that has developed and become more mature accepts what they have created previously, and builds off it to create a more enlightened product. They make no excuse as to the past, nor do they pretend it didn't happen, they simply proceed as they must to produce what they now realise is a superior, more mature product. | |
A serious, non-sexualised female protagonist in legitimate danger from her psychotic opponents, oh god cover my eyes and give me the latest edition of Picture magazine. Was not going to get it from announcement but I am because its an attempt to mare a stupid shallow milkmaid a real human being. | |
Addressing the OP: First off, the description of her being less sexually empowered because she's vulnerable to rape is absolutely ludicrous, and kind of offensive to every woman, because rape isn't really something one can be immune to. Secondly, how is she portrayed as weak and helpless, because she's frantic? That's like saying any feat of heroism accomplished while frightened (see: probably most of them) doesn't count. She's not perfect, she doesn't immediately know exactly what to do in any of these situations, but she keeps going any way, until she finds a way through. That's not helpless, that's how any real person in this kind of situation who had any hope of survival would act. | |
Oh boy this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened but what the hey, I'm already here. When choosing to aspire to fictional characters, videogame characters (especially the ones of late) aren't really what I'd call great role models. I know people who think Marcus Fenix and Master Chief are awesome but I don't think they particularly want to spend years in prison or be abducted as a child. Just cause you aspire to be like a character doesn't mean that you have to go through the same traumatic experiences as them. Let's be honest, you'll never be as awesome as fictional characters so to suggest that you must be held to the same standards if you wish to be like them is folly. This game is about Lara's own personal experiences and obstacles she had to overcome, no about what it takes to become a strong woman. And remember, this is a fictional game so trying to relate it may have a hard time but remember that this pertains to Lara herself and her trials and tribulations | |
Boobies? Sexist You just can't please everyone | |
I love seeing how a fake person can upset people just because of her breast size. Hey, at least we're still human. We seem to be offended by anything and everything; this just confirms that. I won't be buying the game because I don't give a shit about Tomb Raider. I don't give a shit about Laura Croft either. | |
Yeah, this. | |
My answer. Just make a game for women about a week male stripper as the main character that only wears a leather thong and everyone can STFU. | |
I haven't read the last ten pages, but I've seen some of the twitter hype, and all I'm thinking is that it's innapropriate for the character. If this was Condemned 3 and to feature a female lead...maybe. Those games were pretty damned dark, and while there's no reason the woman can't be beaten to near death instead, like a guy would be, at least a threat of rape might fit into the grim themes. As is, it's like seeing Big Bird from Sesame Street show up in the next Hostel movie. It just doesn't fit the character. Also, I'm just a little cynical that someone at marketing said 'You know, if we bring rape into it, it'll be all over the social networks and we won't have to spend so much on advertising.' Lara Croft's been in peril many a time, I just don't think she needs to be threatened by dicks to 'advance her character'. This is an action adventure, not a tentacle hentai game. Of course, none of us have seen the finished item, and if it turns out to all be over a slightly pervy advance followed by a knee to the happy sack, I think the cries of 'rape in games' have been a little premature. | |
Pretty much everything this guy says, this is why so many developers take the safe route of gears of war, to avoid cries of sexism. God forbid something bad happens to a woman in a game. | |
Most of the problem has more to do with what they're saying rather than what's actually in the game. The breast thing? Nobody would consider it sexist to have a flat-chested female character in a game; the problem is that they've said they did it specifically to have a less sexist version of Lara. I can kind of see how this could imply that busty characters are inherently sexist (which is stupid, obviously), but I'm pretty sure the problem he's talking about is how most female characters look that way, which really is a problem. The more troubling implication is how her character arc is being handled. From what we can see, the stuff actually in the game isn't particularly sexist; normal girl has horrible stuff happen to her and becomes an awesome hero as a result. Makes sense. But in interviews, they've specifically said that they're taking that route because she's female. They say that players can't connect to a female hero, so they try to make you care for her instead. Why is that? Because players can only connect with characters of the same gender? And all the players are male? | |
The only thing that I found unappealing about the article was the portion that the kidnappers would be attempting rape. Not the sort of thing I want to bump into in a video game. Never played a boob raider title previously, and won't be playing this one. However, the creators later categorically deny that the attempt of rape is present in the game. | |
Be an easily offended grandmother is fine by me. every has their has their choices. after all they are no bad decisions...just really stupid ones | |
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What they're putting in the video doesn't matter as much as what the executive producer is saying. I've seen several interviews from him on this matter, and they all say the same thing. Of course they're not going to put that on display on the previews, it would practically be shooting themselves int he foot.