Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

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I'l be getting it.

Not because of some symbolism of having Average sized tits, but because it looks like a Good game, which when you consider we're talking about a Tomb Raider game is really something..

Soxafloppin:
I'l be getting it.

Not because of some symbolism of having Average sized tits, but because it looks like a Good game, which when you consider we're talking about a Tomb Raider game is really something..

What, you're not an Angel of Darkness fan?

I for one am really looking forward to this game and was pleasantly surprised to see Lara Croft of all characters(!) being redesigned as a not-overly-sexualised woman. I am far more interested in playing this game than any of the others, so if they're trying for a new audience they're doing a good job from where I'm standing.

I will reserve judgement on the attempted rape until I've seen it in the context of the whole game. If they can deal with it in a sensitive, mature manner (and who knows, they might) then I fail to see how that can be a bad thing.

Her being vulnerable and us wanting to protect her makes perfect sense to me, given that she's a 21 year old woman straight out of college who's been thrown into the middle of a very dangerous situation. I'm pretty sure I'd be vulnerable in that situation (also, holy crap a character I might be able to relate to more than usual. Bonus.) I want to protect my younger sister when she's having a hard time. Doesn't mean I respect her any less as a woman. Hell, I want to protect my boyfriend when he's unhappy. I wanted to protect Alistair in DA:O. I think trying to link this to her gender is unnecessary, is what I'm saying.

As for those complaining about how this ties in with the previous games, while I can totally understand being attached to a franchise, it's a reboot. You kind of have to accept that.

I saw an interview with the devs recently, and they said that they wanted to make a more mature game this time. That's their call, and I can only applaud them for having the balls to take such an iconic franchise in a new direction.

But really, the game isn't even out yet. Everything we're all saying is pure speculation. Doesn't this seem a bit silly to anyone else?

Elate:
I'm going to do something totally shocking, and buy the game, try it, and then decide if it was a poor attempt at implementing drama in a game or a good story telling aspect that allowed me to connect with the character.

Is that so difficult?

Common sense says that this is what we should do, but if everyone followed common sense this forum wouldn't exist. I'll be doing the same thing as you though since, you know, it makes sense.

...I ...ugh I'm not joining the debate just leaving my own touch.

I feel you are overreacting, the story intrigues me, it has the potential to be compelling and handled well, but it probably won't be.

I think everyone is way WAY over thinking this.

If they handle her story well, then angels will descend from on high to bless the Tomb Raider franchise with a gold star and a rebirth certificate, if not we'll all just pick apart where the sexism does horrible things to the story and forget about it within a year or so.

As someone with ...endowment not dissimilar from Ms. Croft, I can't say I'm not on board with the edgier incentive to be a gunslinging, so cocky you could call her a rooster, female version of Nathan Drake and Batman rolled up into an overtly sexual Boobs and Ass monster. It kind of detracts from her ability to be a relatable character and hell if they can sell her now to Women as well as Men older than 14, I'd call that an accomplishment.

They tried this before with a few subplots and it kind of failed. Giving it another shot won't hurt anyone but the investors..

Good grief, people complain a lot. Old Lara is too sexualized, new Lara is too vulnerable, Alyx is too independent... Gah.

Yes, the way the game seems to be going is distinctly uncomfortable. I think that's the point, though - it's meant to be uncomfortable. Not in a sexual way; in a "My God, that's disturbing" way. Yes, it's heavy-handed. But what isn't in gaming?

It actually reminds me of the recent Max Payne game - a character under more stress than humanly possible, and their reactions to it. Max Payne made me uncomfortable just from the relentlessness of it; I'd hope Tomb Raider manages an emergent ending to compensate for the bleakness, but maybe that's just me.

Anyway. Did any of you angry gentlemen have the same problem with Max as you do with Laura? He's used, and abused, for nine straight hours; isn't it a horrible act of anti-male barbarism? Or is it possible that viewing Tomb Raider through an angry-feminist lens is informing your views on that game, instead?

My point is, it's not what you fear it is. Probably. Lay off. Give it a chance. We'll see in March.

Seriously? A dark game does not equal a mature game.

If the horror of sexual violence is explored, rather than just thrown into the screen for shock value.
The problem is not Lara (whose redesign I find great), but rather the storytelling. Right now it just seems to mention rape, but not the consecuences or the psychology behind it. I mean, do we really think the believable way to react to sexual abuse would be spendind the rest of one's life looking for treasure?

Anyway, we'll see when this game launches. It has potential to move the industry forward if it works, after all.

People are reading too much into this. It'll propably be fine. Some people will get offended by the game, because people get offended by fucking everything, but it won't be over anything major. I think they have this under control. She's obviously not going to become this awesome badass JUST BECAUSE she's NEARLY raped, she's stuck on a goddamn island in the middle of nowhere, she has to teach herself lots of things, of course she's gonna come out tougher from it. As for the "wanting to protect her" part, she's what, 20 years old in this game? That's quite young. Barely out of high school. Don't you think that might have been what he was talking about?

Someone's depicting a woman who's facing a ton of dangers doing something she never thought she'd ever do as weak?

Crime of the century.

I didn't like the Dragon Tattoo vibe I got from the trailer. Wether it's raped, nearly raped or just groped, I don't like seeing that. I hope the game is more than 'Watch horrible things happen to the Lara Croft.'

If you're going to go female empowerment route you have to go the Hunger Games direction.

If Lara Croft was male, I'd see no issue. And I doubt anyone would.

So what's the problem if it's a female instead? Sure, there's rape. SURPRISE! RAPE EXISTS IN THE REAL WORLD, AND PEOPLE TRY TO DO IT ON WOMEN. It's up to the artists to use any method they think of to bring about their intended atmosphere, and you can criticize the execution, but not the fact that it's there in the first place. Because that's not criticism, it's attempted censorship.

Woodsey:

Soxafloppin:
I'l be getting it.

Not because of some symbolism of having Average sized tits, but because it looks like a Good game, which when you consider we're talking about a Tomb Raider game is really something..

What, you're not an Angel of Darkness fan?

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnope.

I do like Legend though, it hasn't aged very well but I enjoyed it at the time, hated underworld..

poiumty:
If Lara Croft was male, I'd see no issue. And I doubt anyone would.

So what's the problem if it's a female instead? Sure, there's rape. SURPRISE! RAPE EXISTS IN THE REAL WORLD, AND PEOPLE TRY TO DO IT ON WOMEN. It's up to the artists to use any method they think of to bring about their intended atmosphere, and you can criticize the execution, but not the fact that it's there in the first place. Because that's not criticism, it's attempted censorship.

That's all good and well but the fact of the matter is that people don't like seeing it in their entertainment. And in this day and age if your girlfriend doesn't like it then you're not getting it.

poiumty:
If Lara Croft was male, I'd see no issue. And I doubt anyone would.

So what's the problem if it's a female instead? Sure, there's rape. SURPRISE! RAPE EXISTS IN THE REAL WORLD, AND PEOPLE TRY TO DO IT ON WOMEN. It's up to the artists to use any method they think of to bring about their intended atmosphere, and you can criticize the execution, but not the fact that it's there in the first place. Because that's not criticism, it's attempted censorship.

That's all good and well but the fact of the matter is that people don't like seeing it in their entertainment. And in this day and age if your girlfriend doesn't like it then you're not getting it.

Matthew94:
Am I getting it right that pointing out any feminine feature of a woman is sexist now to someone?

I know.

To the OP: Alright, when you next go on holiday, I'll sabotage your cruise, have you wind up on a ruin filled desert jungle island with people inexplicably trying to harm you, and let's see how you handle it.

It's going to be a fun summer! 8D

Edit: Jungle island, not desert. Golly, what an embarrassing faux pas.

Zhukov:

The game is about a young woman on an expedition that goes pear-shaped. Ugly shit goes down and she has to fight to survive. Why is this getting people's hackles up? Would people be getting upset if it was a guy?

Agreed, that fact that they are addressing a primarily female issue in a typically male-led entertainment medium is potentially a good thing, and not a cause for white knights to cry "protect the innocent women from conceptual atrocities". Furthermore the novel The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was very popular with women so I would suggest that provided it is handled appropriately, rape is a valid (if taboo) dramatic element.

OP/OT: Yes, I think you're over-reacting, particularly since you haven't experienced the implementation. The trailer felt dark, scary, and oppressive - and provided that the potential rape is handled similarly, ie: is not glamorised, sexualised or explicit (and the game is rated appropriately) I don't see it being a cause for moral outrage.

Indeed, one could argue that if men and boys are given even the vaguest sense of the terrifying and disgusting reality of rape... well, that could be a small force for good.

For.I.Am.Mad:

If you're going to go female empowerment route you have to go the Hunger Games direction.

What, random whiny monologue from a girl with ultimately inconsequential skills with a Twilight-esque love triangle and the protagonist's importance ultimately comes from being a superficial figurehead?

That's a bit shit.

And to be honest, I'd say blocking off all potential creative avenues and stating there's only one allowed route for women to reach empowerment is infinitely more sexist than anything the new Lara Croft game has thrown at us.

Women should take some initiative and design characters for games themselves. Like how we got this:

Problem solved!

Windknight:

-snip-

kortin:

-snip

You two said the same thing which bug me a bit. I will probably be called sexist or whatever, but on the internet I don't think I could give a damn.

While I understand that the idea of "You want to protect her" makes it sound derogatory but is it really? I mean essentially they want to make her a character you will like so will want to protect her, since you will have hopefully feelings with the character herself, otherwise it would be a character we don't find any need to protect and if that's the case what's the point? We protect every player character in our games through our actions. This is supposed to be Lauras first time out on one of these adventures, she is not some badass bringing guns to the battle she is the equivalent of a University student being lost in the wild, never having to deal with something like this before and is weaker for it. Be it male or female you should want to protect this character as they evolve and eventually begin to come to grips with their surroundings (much like Far Cry 3 I might add, but hey it's a male so that makes it alright!)

People are getting really sensitive with these sort of issues and while I have no problems with it, unless the two people I have quoted are themselves female then are making speculations on what females find offensive which I find slightly derogatory. But what do I know I'm a 16 year old male spouting opinions on a forum that doesn't give a damn, so there is that :p.

Wait, so attempting to turn wank-material into an actual character and fill out the origin story to explain why the hot sociopath Lara Croft appeared is now a BAD thing?

Reading that review actually made me much more willing to get this Tomb Raider a chance!

Seriously, get the fuck off your high horse.

This actually sounds like an interesting story.

So overly-sexualised characters are bad. Believably proportioned characters that go through hardship are bad. You know what?

I wash my hands of this entire debate. Before I saw the point. My account took one hell of a beating over the TERA promotional pictures, I educate myself, you get the idea.

But if the games industry goes "Fine! Have a believable, weak, interesting female protagonist that becomes the badass we know" and the reaction is "SHE IS TOO WEAK YOU CHAUVINISTIC BASTARDS" then I don't care about the debate any more.

Fuck it. Bring on the tits. If you don't want to play nice, you don't deserve equal representation in games.

This seems to be your problem not mine :)

You were crying when she had big tits, now they cry because she has normal tits

we make a weak character, you cry, we make a overpowered character you cry

no matter what you fucking cry.

I think it's awesome that we have a video game where a woman kills her attempted rapist. That's hardcore.

Honestly, I think this, if handled correctly, could be a great first step towards a realistic feminism in games. I'm excited!

For.I.Am.Mad:

poiumty:
If Lara Croft was male, I'd see no issue. And I doubt anyone would.

So what's the problem if it's a female instead? Sure, there's rape. SURPRISE! RAPE EXISTS IN THE REAL WORLD, AND PEOPLE TRY TO DO IT ON WOMEN. It's up to the artists to use any method they think of to bring about their intended atmosphere, and you can criticize the execution, but not the fact that it's there in the first place. Because that's not criticism, it's attempted censorship.

That's all good and well but the fact of the matter is that people don't like seeing it in their entertainment. And in this day and age if your girlfriend doesn't like it then you're not getting it.

Heh. Well, you know, sometimes you gotta stand up for what you like. Fight for your right to party and so on.

But seriously, if people can read books and watch movies in which rape and other horrible acts are attempted and sometimes even succeed, I find it silly that we give gaming a different treatment.

For.I.Am.Mad:
I hope the game is more than 'Watch horrible things happen to the Lara Croft.

It's incredibly unlikely that this Tomb Raider reboot is going to be just one moment of Lara being tortured by everything after another for several hours straight, that would make for a VERY bad game. Besides, everybody here are making assumptions based on a 3 minute trailer and a Kotaku article which takes everything Rosenburg said completely out of context to make him sound like an typical out of touch developer douchebag, when in fact he's anything but.

For a much more positive and ACCURATE look at what's going to be in the new Tomb Raider game, look at this article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/12/the-two-deaths-that-defined-tomb-raider/#more-111538

connall:

Windknight:

-snip-

kortin:

-snip

You two said the same thing which bug me a bit. I will probably be called sexist or whatever, but on the internet I don't think I could give a damn.

While I understand that the idea of "You want to protect her" makes it sound derogatory but is it really? I mean essentially they want to make her a character you will like so will want to protect her, since you will have hopefully feelings with the character herself, otherwise it would be a character we don't find any need to protect and if that's the case what's the point? We protect every player character in our games through our actions. This is supposed to be Lauras first time out on one of these adventures, she is not some badass bringing guns to the battle she is the equivalent of a University student being lost in the wild, never having to deal with something like this before and is weaker for it. Be it male or female you should want to protect this character as they evolve and eventually begin to come to grips with their surroundings (much like Far Cry 3 I might add, but hey it's a male so that makes it alright!)

People are getting really sensitive with these sort of issues and while I have no problems with it, unless the two people I have quoted are themselves female then are making speculations on what females find offensive which I find slightly derogatory. But what do I know I'm a 16 year old male spouting opinions on a forum that doesn't give a damn, so there is that :p.

The whole "you want to protect her" is incredibly derogatory, for the situation. Lara is supposed to be an ideal woman (in the sense of attitude and mindset, at the least. The physical characteristics are nigh impossible to achieve), she's brave, smart, and knows what she's doing. She doesn't need someone to baby her and tell her everything is going to be okay. They're taking great character traits, throwing them in the garbage, and coming up with entirely new ones. They need to have core traits that will stay with her and that she's always had. There's no such thing as taking all of your signature traits and throwing them in the garbage to get brand new ones, which is basically what's happening (from the transition from this game to the first games, since this is supposed to be in the past). In order to Lara to be Lara, she has to have some core traits that COULD NOT BE CHANGED (i.e. Bravery, Intelligence). What they're describing is some happy-go-lucky teen girl who hasn't the slightest inch of bravery or intelligence.

It's not a "Hey, they're giving her more depth", it's "hey, let's RAPE everything about her and just make up impossible stories!"

By saying "you want to protect her", they're perpetuating the stereotype that women need to be coddled and protected, when, in this day and age, they don't.

Ngh. I truly hope that Rosenberg's statements do not reflect the intentions of the rest of the team. His attitude just reeks of sexism not just in regards to Lara as a character, but also to men's ability to project themselves into female characters. I mean... making it easier to see a bit of yourself in her seemed to be the entire point of turning Lara into a more human and relatable character. (Not to mention that women play games too.)

I'm not going to let this make me lose hope or interest in the game, though. Not yet.

RazadaMk2:
Wait, so attempting to turn wank-material into an actual character and fill out the origin story to explain why the hot sociopath Lara Croft appeared is now a BAD thing?

Reading that review actually made me much more willing to get this Tomb Raider a chance!

Seriously, get the fuck off your high horse.

This actually sounds like an interesting story.

So overly-sexualised characters are bad. Believably proportioned characters that go through hardship are bad. You know what?

I wash my hands of this entire debate. Before I saw the point. My account took one hell of a beating over the TERA promotional pictures, I educate myself, you get the idea.

But if the games industry goes "Fine! Have a believable, weak, interesting female protagonist that becomes the badass we know" and the reaction is "SHE IS TOO WEAK YOU CHAUVINISTIC BASTARDS" then I don't care about the debate any more.

Fuck it. Bring on the tits. If you don't want to play nice, you don't deserve equal representation in games.

The Other M.

Another situation in which the developers tried to turn a strong female character into a "believable character". We all know how that played out.

kortin:
The Other M.

Another situation in which the developers tried to turn a strong female character into a "believable character". We all know how that played out.

Also a result of a game designer (Yoshio Sakamoto) getting too much influence over a game, which lead to him assuming roles he isn't suited for. (Writing and voice direction, for starters.)

Origin story's suck ass, if you're going to have an origin story you're better off making it multiple choice.

kortin:

connall:

Windknight:

-snip-

[quote="kortin" post="9.378384.14796193"]

-snip

snip

Here's the thing right. No-one is protecting her in game. So, it's not throwing all her traits out the window, she's just a little bit more inexperienced. She is still surviving on her own with no help and is using her intelligence to get out of situations. So... yeah.

Sixcess:
"And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her. "She is literally turned into a cornered animal," Rosenberg said. "It's a huge step in her evolution: she's forced to either fight back or die."

Wow.

And I thought I was maybe reading too much into the trailer when I saw it last week, but this, coming from one of the producers of the game, just raises it to a new level of creepy.

I'm dreading this. I don't want to see Lara pick up her iconic handguns as a reaction to an attempted rape. That's not a strong believable female character - that's just sleazy, and I am really concerned that this is the kind of exploitation movie thinking that's driving the reboot.

Lara was the iconic female video game hero of the 90s. She didn't need a justification for going on adventures and kicking ass any more than her male counterparts did. Now it's a reaction to an attempted rape. How can this possibly be seen as a step forward?

This is going to be worse than Other M.

It's fine because it'll be a moment that defines Lara Croft's character...

Last I checked, the worth of woman world wide was not determined by one game character. That kind of thinking is hyperbole at it's most extreme.

Zhukov:
Urgh... apparently it's impossible to have a female protagonist without stirring up gender politics.

The game is about a young woman on an expedition that goes pear-shaped. Ugly shit goes down and she has to fight to survive. Why is this getting people's hackles up? Would people be getting upset if it was a guy?

We finally get a game that's trying (albeit rather haltingly) to get away from the standard kill-everything-that-speaks-Russian power trip and people start squalling because "OMG, it's a chick."

It's not so much oh my god it's a chick but more oh my god it's Lara.

I'll admit what there putting in game has tons of ways it could be done wrong, but when does not having issues like this not have the chance to be fucked up, it's part of handling mature content. I'm looking forward to the game I'd love to have more games with underpowered heroes.

Also I understand Other M sucks but this isn't Other M, just because one game did it wrong doesn't mean every game is gonna do it wrong.

Zhukov:
Urgh... apparently it's impossible to have a female protagonist without stirring up gender politics.

The game is about a young woman on an expedition that goes pear-shaped. Ugly shit goes down and she has to fight to survive. Why is this getting people's hackles up? Would people be getting upset if it was a guy?

We finally get a game that's trying (albeit rather haltingly) to get away from the standard kill-everything-that-speaks-Russian power trip and people start squalling because "OMG, it's a chick."

Nope, people don't give a rat's ass when it comes to what happens to a male protagonist. Such is the hypocrisy of gender politics. I mean look at FEAR 2, the male protagonist gets raped at the end of the game, and no ones gives a flying fuck. There is no massive controversy, the developers are called scumbags, there is no call to boycott the franchise.

kortin:

RazadaMk2:
Wait, so attempting to turn wank-material into an actual character and fill out the origin story to explain why the hot sociopath Lara Croft appeared is now a BAD thing?

Reading that review actually made me much more willing to get this Tomb Raider a chance!

Seriously, get the fuck off your high horse.

This actually sounds like an interesting story.

So overly-sexualised characters are bad. Believably proportioned characters that go through hardship are bad. You know what?

I wash my hands of this entire debate. Before I saw the point. My account took one hell of a beating over the TERA promotional pictures, I educate myself, you get the idea.

But if the games industry goes "Fine! Have a believable, weak, interesting female protagonist that becomes the badass we know" and the reaction is "SHE IS TOO WEAK YOU CHAUVINISTIC BASTARDS" then I don't care about the debate any more.

Fuck it. Bring on the tits. If you don't want to play nice, you don't deserve equal representation in games.

The Other M.

Another situation in which the developers tried to turn a strong female character into a "believable character". We all know how that played out.

Yes, its been handled badly. But does that mean companies should stop trying?

IMO its not turning a strong female character into a "Believable" character. In this case it is taking a 2 dimensional wank cloth and giving it a backstory to try and explain how they became a badass, runny jumpy sociopath with giant breasts.

And if they want to do this by telling a brutal tale of death and pain, all the power to them! I, personally, am fucking bored with characters that I cannot sympathise with. Someone shit scared going through hell and finding reserves of strength? Sounds awesome to me. Heh, the general themes of this put me in mind of a one man Lord of the Flies.

I say we hold off judgement until the bloody game has been released.

Woodsey:
... what?

The OP's link is a link to Kotaku with some very selective interview quotations, mine is a RPS link to a preview of the scene in question that actually discusses it from first-hand experience.

Ah well, a derp moment for me, I suppose. I did read the RPS piece yesterday (I think it may have been linked to earlier in this thread, or elsewhere) and simply assumed it was the same one. Oh well.

Helps if you check that kind of thing before you, y'know, get your snark on. (But thanks, because I love getting mine on.)

Me too, which is why I'll add that I probably didn't look very closely since I was putting as much effort into my reply as you'd put into all two words of yours. Cheers!

*cough*

Anyway, now that we've got the obligatory internet bitching out of our systems (I hope) back to the reasonable discussion part.

I'm not going to say much about the body of the article. It strikes me as reaching too hard to be meaningful and it's all a bit overdone, and to be honest the longer Rosenberg quotes don't really alter my view of it all - I'm still uncomfortable with the content of the trailers, and I'm decidedly unconvinced by his stance.

"We didn't want to make it a gratuitous scene, but we wanted to show that character progression and talk about what you'd do if you were put in that extreme situation."

At the risk of repeating myself from previous posts, it doesn't sit well with me that they've decided that the best way to progress her character is through repeated brutalisation and attempted rape. The only place that this happens is in exploitation flicks and slasher movies, shifting Tomb Raider's cinematic influences away from Raiders of the Lost Ark and toward I Spit On Your Grave.

Perhaps he does have good intentions. Perhaps. But video games are immature as a story telling medium, and this kind of thing usually comes across badly, particularly when it is pushed to one side in favour of action set pieces later on.

Which brings me to my last (likely repeated) point.

"We're doing something that's special. I mean, it's a little bit risky in some ways. We're forging into new emotional territories."

To which I will reply... in Tomb Raider? Seriously?

Too much of this (like the deer killing scene) feels like a reaction to the Yahtzee style revisionist caricature of Lara Croft as an heartless psychotic murderer of any living thing that crosses her path... in other words, as a video game character.

If Rosenberg has this urge to explore new emotional territory then perhaps he should have avoided using a character who is entirely associated with action, not character depth. When Spielberg made a movie about the Holocaust it was Schindler's List not Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of Auschwitz.

This should have been a new IP.

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