Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

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You see this guy:
image

Gatts
Complete badass
Raped as a child

Sure, it's from a work of fiction, but a good writer can use ANYTHING to improve/expand/explain a character.

Any implied/actual 'bad stuff' can be used to further a story/character positively as long as the writer(s) are good at what they do.

I'm not buying it because it's uncharted: mammory edition. If I want to play Uncharted, I'm not going to play the new tomb raider. I don't see any real difference here between the two games. It's like choosing between a bunch of modern-warfare shooters. They may have different stories and available tools, but it will all boil down to shooting guys. There's not enough variation or innovation to make me want to play this game.

The fact that they turned one of gaming's stronger female protagonists into a pathetic wimp that has to be broken down and fucked over to become a badass again is just icing on the cake.

Caramel Frappe:
Even so, I fear they're not showing everything on the trailer. You didn't expect rape in Duke Nukem: Forever .. no one could had actually. But it's there, and it's not even a shock factor to motivate us playing it's just disgusting overall. And yeah, if she gets away from the rape good- but I heard some talk that she uses the moment of being raped to escape the bad guy. I hope that isn't true, I really hope not....

She gets away from the rape. Lara automatically fights back in the scene, and the guy gets angry instead of aroused and attempts to kill her. If you fail the scene, she gets killed, not raped. Seriously, rape doesn't even come into the game other than this small, implied danger interaction.

Besides, Crystal Dynamics released a statement about that, so it's definitely not a factor for her progression. It's not the rape, but her having to hurt and kill another human that is the focus of the scene. Honestly, the article takes the scene completely out of context.

jcb1337:
I'm not buying it because it's uncharted: mammory edition. If I want to play Uncharted, I'm not going to play the new tomb raider. I don't see any real difference here between the two games. It's like choosing between a bunch of modern-warfare shooters. They may have different stories and available tools, but it will all boil down to shooting guys. There's not enough variation or innovation to make me want to play this game.

Having played both series, you couldn't be more wrong. They're both fantastic, and their stories go in completely different directions. Just because the core concept (exploring tombs) is the same, it doesn't make the games similar in the same respect. But to each their own, I won't start another Uncharted Vs. Tomb Raider debate. Don't buy it if you won't.

Zydrate:
This, thank you.

I have to constantly explain to writers and roleplayers that rape NEVER helps. It BREAKS characters, and in the event it "strengthens" them, it happens decades after the fact at which point it doesn't merit mentioning.
Which means, the only time rape as a backstory works is when it's never mentioned.

EDIT:

Caramel Frappe:
To be honest, rape is a huge issue with me. I've dealt with it, and to see producers use it to make Tomb Raider 'stronger' is just ... wrong overall. Rape as I stated- does not make people stronger and hardcore. It utterly crushes them, weakens their stability in thinking and causes a lot of social problems if not self harm. And trust me, I have seen people talk about rape and it usually ends up with people saying:

"So killing people is fine in games? Why is rape so bad when you're killing people?"

Just because killing people isn't good, doesn't mean we should include another bad element like rape in it. Two wrongs don't make a right after all, plus trying to justify rape usually doesn't look right on that person's end unless he/she explains the reality of it rather then what is worse between killing and rape. And yeah I should wait for the game to come out, but certain things do put people off especially if they've had to face such things in real life. And just to bring it back up- they can possibly pull off the rape but I feel like they're just forcing it there to make the game darker, like we're supposed to appreciate what Tomb Raider goes through. Ugh.

Lara isn't a human, she's a hero. I don't get why people don't understand this. Heroes are not realistic in any which way. This formula stems from a time when hero literally meant you were semi-divine because a God had sex with your mother. By no means does a hero using the heroic formula - like Lara Croft - get bogged down by realism.

I'll try and give an example:

So there's this franchise called Warhammer 40,000. Within it are these guys called the Space Marines who are literally the paragons and saviours of humanity. Everything about them is super human from their physique to their ability to survive almost anything because of extra organs to chewing through metal because they can secrete acid from their teeth. Their normal day is saving humanity from utter destruction from every horror the galaxy can throw at them from elitist elves to death robots to literal demons from another dimension. All in all, very super human, very much heroes following the heroic formula.

Within the same universe is a guy called Commissar Ibram Gaunt. Supposedly he's a regular guy who went to a combat school to learn how to inspire the soldiers underneath him and fight like an expert. You know what Gaunt does on a regular day? Pretty much everything a Space Marine does. While his adventures are narrowed to only fighting said extra-dimensional demons, he often times finds himself in similar scenarios. It's gotten so far that he's even fought a traitor Space Marine toe-to-toe and was holding his own - the Space Marine supposedly being able to crush a normal human like a human would crush an ant.

But that's the great thing about fictitious heroes: they aren't normal. Things that would break us make them stronger. It tempers them into the badasses we know and love instead of having them be crippled emotionally and having to go through a ten year rehab phase before being moderately more self-confident. This applies just as much to men as it does to women. Bringing this back to Lara, rape is one of the things that will help temper her into the hero she becomes and will most likely be the breaking point - if I know my story progression - as there really isn't a higher step in a person's mind as to what could cause her to finally shove life back after it kicks her to the ground X amount of times. While it's nice to go "well, if this were actually realistic...", we all know this isn't realistic, but rather the tale of a hero coming to be a hero using a specific formula started over three and a half thousand years ago. She's supposed to be better than us, else the story wouldn't be interesting and overcoming something with such ease that it's literally impossible is just that formula coming to bear.

The problem with your stance is that this whole design seems to be based around making her realistic.
You make some fair points, but I disagree for this very simple matter.

jcb1337:
I'm not buying it because it's uncharted: mammory edition. If I want to play Uncharted, I'm not going to play the new tomb raider. I don't see any real difference here between the two games. It's like choosing between a bunch of modern-warfare shooters. They may have different stories and available tools, but it will all boil down to shooting guys. There's not enough variation or innovation to make me want to play this game.

how do you know that? have you played the game?

mabye I want to play a game when I DONT watch to stab blandy mcbland in the face everytime he opens his mouth...mabye I'd liek to play a game when I feel somthing for the protagonsit

The fact that they turned one of gaming's stronger female protagonists into a pathetic wimp that has to be broken down and fucked over to become a badass again is just icing on the cake.

they havnt...its called having an obsticle..struggle, makes charachters more compelling

Caramel Frappe:

Even so, I fear they're not showing everything on the trailer. You didn't expect rape in Duke Nukem: Forever .. no one could had actually. But it's there, and it's not even a shock factor to motivate us playing it's just disgusting overall. And yeah, if she gets away from the rape good- but I heard some talk that she uses the moment of being raped to escape the bad guy. I hope that isn't true, I really hope not....

what I'd like to know is WHAT are peopel basing this "rape" acusation on?...that one bit in the trailer?

if so wow.....some people overact to everything..or don't bother to know the facts before flipping their shit

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

Vault101:

jcb1337:
I'm not buying it because it's uncharted: mammory edition. If I want to play Uncharted, I'm not going to play the new tomb raider. I don't see any real difference here between the two games. It's like choosing between a bunch of modern-warfare shooters. They may have different stories and available tools, but it will all boil down to shooting guys. There's not enough variation or innovation to make me want to play this game.

how do you know that? have you played the game?

mabye I want to play a game when I DONT watch to stab blandy mcbland in the face everytime he opens his mouth...mabye I'd liek to play a game when I feel somthing for the protagonsit

The fact that they turned one of gaming's stronger female protagonists into a pathetic wimp that has to be broken down and fucked over to become a badass again is just icing on the cake.

they havnt...its called having an obsticle..struggle, makes charachters more compelling

There's a difference between making a compelling character by giving them challenges and making the character appear the be pathetic. I like Tomb Raider. I don't like how the new Laura is being portrayed. I also have seen gameplay of the new Tomb Raider and it is virtually identical to Uncharted, minus the climbing. This doesn't mean there is no climbing though.

Zydrate:
The problem with your stance is that this whole design seems to be based around making her realistic.
You make some fair points, but I disagree for this very simple matter.

Except that was my point: it will never be realistic. As much as they want to hype it that way, it never will be. Ever. You can say "oh, but that's what they told us!" all you want and I can keep saying that because Lara Croft is supposed to be a hero it will never portray realism 100% accurately. Unless 9/10ths of that game are Lara staying in relatively one spot, making a fire, rationing her food and water, digging a latrine to prevent contamination at her camp site, building a shelter, constructing a rescue sign and spending most of her free time sitting around doing nothing to conserve energy and waste less supplies, then it's not realistic!

HellsingerAngel:

Zydrate:
The problem with your stance is that this whole design seems to be based around making her realistic.
You make some fair points, but I disagree for this very simple matter.

Except that was my point: it will never be realistic. As much as they want to hype it that way, it never will be. Ever. You can say "oh, but that's what they told us!" all you want and I can keep saying that because Lara Croft is supposed to be a hero it will never portray realism 100% accurately. Unless 9/10ths of that game are Lara staying in relatively one spot, making a fire, rationing her food and water, digging a latrine to prevent contamination at her camp site, building a shelter, constructing a rescue sign and spending most of her free time sitting around doing nothing to conserve energy and waste less supplies, then it's not realistic!

I think you're uh, mixing gameplay with story.

Sure, if stories were ultra-realistic, people would be sitting around eating sandwiches.
We want believable characters in believable situations, realism and suspension of disbelief can be bent for all I care.

Also, this:

Kakulukia:
A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

Kakulukia:
A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

In their statement Crystal said that Rosenburg had worded what he said incorrectly, or it was at least taken out of context - we don't want to care or help her simply because she's a woman, but because she's an average person placed in this extreme survival situation. We want to help her survive, and guide in that respect, not protect her. It was his fault for saying that so poorly, and he has apologized for that. I'm not defending this out of fanboyism, but because I really appreciate the mature direction they're taking Lara and the whole concept of characterization, and player input in a game centered around a strong character.

When we (may) start seeing some shots from later on in the game, when Lara is not only surviving but adapting and overcoming her situation, then I think some tunes will change, and hopefully more people will get interested in the game. We should be supporting a game trying to look maturely at a female character, not bashing it down.

Volan:

Kakulukia:
A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

In their statement Crystal said that Rosenburg had worded what he said incorrectly, or it was at least taken out of context - we don't want to care or help her simply because she's a woman, but because she's an average person placed in this extreme survival situation. We want to help her survive, and guide in that respect, not protect her. It was his fault for saying that so poorly, and he has apologized for that. I'm not defending this out of fanboyism, but because I really appreciate the mature direction they're taking Lara and the whole concept of characterization, and player input in a game centered around a strong character.

When we (may) start seeing some shots from later on in the game, when Lara is not only surviving but adapting and overcoming her situation, then I think some tunes will change, and hopefully more people will get interested in the game. We should be supporting a game trying to look maturely at a female character, not bashing it down.

I agree. If Rosenburg indeed misspoke and the game's attitude is not misogynistic (because what he said was fucking misogynistic), I'll definitely buy it new and support what CD is doing. But his statement made sure I will not pre-order it. I'll buy it a couple of days after release after I make sure they didn't pull an Other M.

Zydrate:
I think you're uh, mixing gameplay with story.

Sure, if stories were ultra-realistic, people would be sitting around eating sandwiches.
We want believable characters in believable situations, realism and suspension of disbelief can be bent for all I care.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I was arguing in the first place and so were you.

Zydrate:
This, thank you.

I have to constantly explain to writers and roleplayers that rape NEVER helps. It BREAKS characters, and in the event it "strengthens" them, it happens decades after the fact at which point it doesn't merit mentioning.
Which means, the only time rape as a backstory works is when it's never mentioned.

So, suspension of disbelief that rape cannot make someone stronger person almost immediately. Much like survival from a plane crash wouldn't be natives hunting you down and trying to rape you and more so agonizing solitude and desperate hope that someone will find you.

Zydrate:
Also, this:

Kakulukia:
A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

And this pertains to my argument how...? If you want my opinion, I think this whole idea that Lara is a helpless woman and were all white-knighting her to victory has some pretty heavy assumptions tied to it. I don't really want to give a solid opinion until I watch or play the game simply because it could be just as misogynistic as people are making it out to be, or it could just be that he's trying to convey that Lara is a very helpless person and that anyone, male or female, will empathize with how pathetic she'll be at the start and do everything possible to shelter her from the storm of unfortunate events she's crashed into.

If this is something to support your argument, well, I don't understand how this connects to my argument that rape can be a good plot point and that saying a hero should abide by realistic expectations is folly.

Kakulukia:
A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

I want you to try something.

Track down a copy of "The Binding of Isaac", the dungeon (basement?) crawler from Edmund McMillen. It features a small child that I felt desperately sorry for and I "wanted to take care of".

I want you to play it all the way to at least the first ending.

This is what people think is going to happen to Lara.

Now, track down a copy of The Longest Journey or Dreamfall. Play that. They feature teenaged girls in waaaaaaay over their head that I "wanted to take care of".

This is what will probably actually happen to Lara.

Notice a difference?

Seriously, the cynicism in this thread is mind-boggling.

HellsingerAngel:
Stuff and things

I quoted that because the whole topic has lost sight of why we TRULY are not happy with all of this, that's all.
Also I need sleep.

Sixcess:

Fiz_The_Toaster:
Also, the whole rape thing? Apparently ole boy Ron Rosenberg screwed up in what he was talking about and actually that little scene doesn't have any rape connotation.

http://www.tombraider.com/us/base/brandsite?refer=19&

From the Crystal Dynamics statement, today:

"Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme we cover in this game."

From Penny Arcade, 1 week ago:

"You see that in the beginning of the game, where we begin to build her up and give her confidence to cross the ledge, cross the plane, she forages for food and she's feeling really successful," Rosenberg said. "Then towards the end we start to really hit her, and to break her down. Her best friend is kidnapped, she's taken hostage, she's almost raped, we put her in this position where we turned her into a cornered animal."

So what they're saying is that the team that put that scene together in a way that definitely implies sexual assault didn't mean to do that? That the producer of the game uses words as charged as 'almost raped' by mistake? When talking to Penny Arcade?

I'm facepalming so hard it'll give Patrick Stewart a concussion.

The most charitable spin I can put on this is that Crystal Dynamics are a pack of idiots who have no fucking idea what they're doing and (like most developers it seems) should be forbidden to talk to the gaming press.

But that's not what's happening. They've tried to be edgy and 'dark' and all the rest of what passes for maturity in mainstream gaming, and they didn't get the reaction they wanted.

This is damage control, pure and simple.

Oh it was damage control alright, and I do think that Rosenberg is the wrong person to be talking about this game since everything he has said so far has been making the team trying to do some fantastic backpedaling. He's a fucking idiot, but I'm not gonna let one idiot on the team ruin the game for me.

However, my take on it is that they would have to be stupid to have attempted rape in the game, no one wins if that happens, and you're right about them being 'edgy' for the sake of it if they do have it in there. At some point in the game Lara has to get to the point of defending herself and taking someone's life, and that little scene to me says that.

I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Fiz_The_Toaster:
I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

Zydrate:

HellsingerAngel:
Stuff and things

I quoted that because the whole topic has lost sight of why we TRULY are not happy with all of this, that's all.

Right. Which had nothing to do with what I quoted.

Though, again, where are people getting all this misogyny from? I ran through every quote from Rosenberg and found only one potentially sexist remark.

Rosenberg:
"When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character."

Out of all these genderless quotes...

Rosenberg:
"When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character,"

Rosenberg:
"They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

Rosenberg:
"She's definitely the hero but- you're kind of like her helper."

Rosenberg:
"The ability to see her as a human is even more enticing to me than the more sexualized version of yesteryear. She literally goes from zero to hero... we're sort of building her up and just when she gets confident, we break her down again."

Rosenberg:
"She is literally turned into a cornered animal. It's a huge step in her evolution: she's forced to either fight back or die."

Rosenberg:
"We're not trying to be over the top, shock people for shock's sake. We're trying to tell a great origin story."

So just for fun...

Rosenberg:
"When people play Leon, they don't really project themselves into the character,"

Rosenberg:
"They're more like 'I want to protect him.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with him and trying to protect him.'"

Rosenberg:
"He's definitely the hero but- you're kind of like his helper. When you see him have to face these challenges, you start to root for him in a way that you might not root for a female character."

Rosenberg:
"The ability to see him as a human is even more enticing to me than the more sexualized version of yesteryear. He literally goes from zero to hero... we're sort of building him up and just when he gets confident, we break him down again."

Rosenberg:
"He is literally turned into a cornered animal. It's a huge step in his evolution: he's forced to either fight back or die."

Rosenberg:
"We're not trying to be over the top, shock people for shock's sake. We're trying to tell a great origin story."

Does it sound any different? I think people are reading too much into Kotaku's spin and not enough into what Rosenberg is actually saying. That's why I like the Escapist - they don't put up with hack hype like this and present stories from an unbiased standpoint. Kotaku, on the other hand, is headlining with a clearly polarizing statement and feeding that implanted idea throughout their comments between the quotes. If you read the quotes just as a streamlined dialogue, which is how it would've been originally, it sounds fine and pretty gender neutral.

Sorry, this isn't meant to pick on you, but you sort of spurred me to put my thoughts down.

lacktheknack:

Fiz_The_Toaster:
I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Fiz_The_Toaster:

lacktheknack:

Fiz_The_Toaster:
I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Yeah, Crossroads.

And Crystal Dynamics have stated in today's statement that "it never goes any further than the scenes we have already shown publicly". ie... we've seen the attempted rape already, and it was hardly anything.

Fiz_The_Toaster:
Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Exactly, it isn't a big deal. I guess a game centered around a struggling female character is bound to drag up controversy. That article takes the scene completely out of context. They need to bear in mind that this is the start of the game where Lara is still vulnerable - they seem to forget the whole point is to survive, and that later Lara will adapt and will overcome her situation, bearing a more humanizing resemblance to her old badass self.

The short of it, I guess, is that it's far too early to boycott or pass off what could be a brilliant game over something someone said that one time. Make your own judgements, and wait and see, rather than jumping all over a ten second scene you saw in an early trailer.

That wasn't aimed specifically at you Fiz, by the way.

lacktheknack:

Fiz_The_Toaster:

lacktheknack:

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Yeah, Crossroads.

And Crystal Dynamics have stated in today's statement that "it never goes any further than the scenes we have already shown publicly". ie... we've seen the attempted rape already, and it was hardly anything.

Yeah I saw that statement too and since that's the case then I have no reason to lose my shit over it.

Here is the long and short of it. This is just another example of why being politically correct is not only wrong, but its a load of horseshit. (whoa, that passed spell check oddly enough)

If you want to make Lara croft a sexualized entity. Fine. If you want to make her frail and weak, fine. But there is absolutely no merit in modifying existing characters to make them appeal to the sensibilities of the offended because no matter how much you compromise you quickly understand it will never EVER be enough to satisfy and the only thing that gets accomplished possibly alienating some of those who supported you in the first place.

- Some wiseass:

"You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you simply cannot cave in the skull of every one who deserves it simply because the law prevents you from doing so and there would be no one left after you were done."

Volan:

Fiz_The_Toaster:
Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Exactly, it isn't a big deal. I guess a game centered around a struggling female character is bound to drag up controversy. That article takes the scene completely out of context. They need to bear in mind that this is the start of the game where Lara is still vulnerable - they seem to forget the whole point is to survive, and that later Lara will adapt and will overcome her situation, bearing a more humanizing resemblance to her old badass self.

The short of it, I guess, is that it's far too early to boycott or pass off what could be a brilliant game over something someone said that one time. Make your own judgements, and wait and see, rather than jumping all over a ten second scene you saw in an early trailer.

That wasn't aimed specifically at you Fiz, by the way.

It's all good, I figured it wasn't aimed at me. :D

But yeah, I thought they made it perfectly clear waaaaay before E3 that this game was going to be about a bright eyed Lara just coming out of college into the real world and learning how to become what we know her for, and it wasn't going to be sunshine and rainbows. Somehow that was lost on some people because of that scene that, what we found out later, wasn't as big of a deal as everyone thought it was.

I know I'm excited for this game since it looks really good.

Caramel Frappe:

cynicalandbored:
Snip

*Reads OP* I can see where you're going with this- *reads the part about rape* ... what??

*Reads article, and comes to see this.*

And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her.

...... What?!

Ppft- .. wow, I am speechless. I know they're trying to make the game realistic and have some dark elements in it- but rape? ... My god no, why of all things. Never has a game (to my knowledge) has successfully impacted us with rape and making it work with the main or side character. All it does is just throws things off, or makes us disgusted. Remember when Duke Nukem: Forever tried to stun us with the aliens raping women? .. That wasn't close to being meaningful, it was utterly wrong and sickening. SO yeah I ... uh.. *shakes head*

I've dealt with rape in real life, friends I cared about and even a girl I dated was raped. It didn't help them mature not one bit. It traumatized them and made it hard for them to ever get into dating or even being themselves again. Gosh, sorry for the ranting but rape? Really... don't do this to us, I already played 2 games trying to shove rape in our faces and make us admire the plot more but it only screws everything up. Probably won't even get this game and yeah- I know the article said the bad guys will 'try' to rape her but still.. come on.

Because a select few who you knew didn't become stronger after the experience, means that absolutely no one who has been raped has ever gotten stronger because of it? Right. Great logic there.

I know some rape victims, some have dealt with it and gotten stronger, others have not. It depends entirely on the person, because I'm not sure if you're aware of this but not everyone handles something the exact same way as everyone else. Something the gaming community can't seem to comprehend.

Caramel Frappe:

imahobbit4062:

Caramel Frappe:

*Reads OP* I can see where you're going with this- *reads the part about rape* ... what??

*Reads article, and comes to see this.*

...... What?!

Ppft- .. wow, I am speechless. I know they're trying to make the game realistic and have some dark elements in it- but rape? ... My god no, why of all things. Never has a game (to my knowledge) has successfully impacted us with rape and making it work with the main or side character. All it does is just throws things off, or makes us disgusted. Remember when Duke Nukem: Forever tried to stun us with the aliens raping women? .. That wasn't close to being meaningful, it was utterly wrong and sickening. SO yeah I ... uh.. *shakes head*

I've dealt with rape in real life, friends I cared about and even a girl I dated was raped. It didn't help them mature not one bit. It traumatized them and made it hard for them to ever get into dating or even being themselves again. Gosh, sorry for the ranting but rape? Really... don't do this to us, I already played 2 games trying to shove rape in our faces and make us admire the plot more but it only screws everything up. Probably won't even get this game and yeah- I know the article said the bad guys will 'try' to rape her but still.. come on.

Because a select few who you knew didn't become stronger after the experience, means that absolutely no one who has been raped has ever gotten stronger because of it? Right. Great logic there.

I know some rape victims, some have dealt with it and gotten stronger, others have not. It depends entirely on the person, because I'm not sure if you're aware of this but not everyone handles something the exact same way as everyone else. Something the gaming community can't seem to comprehend.

No need for the insults or sarcasm my friend- it's just a huge deal to me regardless if you find rape to be another cruelty in life or all the more. Also every person I ever knew who had or gotten raped did not get stronger from it, they struggled so much from it and personal damage have been done so I would actually like to meet these people you've gotten to know who got stronger from rape (that's not an insult to you, I am utterly surprised there are people who get stronger from events like that.)

What is there to comprehend if I may ask though? Rape is horrible, and though killing isn't justifiable ether I really don't see why they need a rape scene in the game. And fortunately, people keep telling me Tomb Raider escapes from it but then again trailers don't show everything and a few games have pulled off some... bad awful scenes without warning. Just letting you know I am strongly against rape but you may of figured that so I apologize.

I wouldn't want you to be pro-rape, I wouldn't want anyone to be. I'm well aware it's a horrible thing. But saying no one gets stronger after it is nonsense. It's like saying everyone is an emotional wreck after a loved one dies. People handle situations differently.

Like someone being forced to kill another person. Person A could kill someone and be perfectly content with it, Person B could be an emotional wreck.

Or a car accident for instance. Person A could get into a messy accident and go back to driving like normal in no time, Person B could get into the same accident and never get behind the wheel again.

And just like with rape. Person A could be raped and adjust back to life just fine after it, accepting that it happened and move on, while Person B could be so traumatized they never trust men again or as you said, have difficulty getting into relationships again.

As for why it's in the game? For story purposes, they're telling an origin story and this is how they want it to be told. Not necessarily for shock value but because it is the story they want.

Mr.K.:
Like I always said, if people want to be offended they will find a way to be offended.

But in no way does the game suggest all people must undergo torture in order to be skillful, it simply tells her story and how she came about this.
Still I won't be buying it either for similar reasons, depictions of genuine torture and watching people suffer is not my idea of entertainment, yes I am well aware that such things happen but I will never seek them out let alone pay for them.

Agree with the first thing you said, and I think OP is somewhat of a...well...his post wasnt very good imo.

Lots of women are vulnerable. They are the inferior sex, physically at least. So of course they are vulnerable. Men have traditionally had the protector of the family role going on, so why they shouldnt still feel that way, even for digital women is no wonder to me. And if some feminists idiots come spitting in my eye....I wont care. The sexes are worth the same, but they are not equal. There is a difference.

I will not actively seek out abusive scenes to be entertained, its not about that at all. But not all entertainment products are about cheap laughs and big explosions. Is rape cool? No, of course not. Do I want to see it happen? No, of course not. But I remember seeing Dogville. There is a rape scene in there, and it is extremely awful and interesting to watch. Dogville is a pretty special film, and I did not regret seeing it. Good entertainment can be born from horrible situations. Not good as in a barrel of laughs, but good as in interesting.

Hopefully the new Tomb Raider will be a bit more interesting than a bag of pixels doing silly handstands on cliffs.

I wonder what will happen when it gets to the rape scene? Will we have a quick time event to escape or actual controlled action? If so i'm going to put the controller down at that point sit back and drink a cold beer and watch the fun.

tzimize:
[quote="Mr.K." post="9.378384.14792680"]The sexes are worth the same, but they are not equal. There is a difference.

Don't you mean that the sexes are equal, but not the same? That's probably more correct.

For instance, 3+5 is not the same as 9-1, but 3+5 = 9-1.

Batsamaritan:
I wonder what will happen when it gets to the rape scene? Will we have a quick time event to escape or actual controlled action? If so i'm going to put the controller down at that point sit back and drink a cold beer and watch the fun.

They're prepared for terrible people like you, and have said somewhere that the rape attempt is completely automated and unfailable. The sequence that follows is straight up life and death.

floppylobster:
You make a number of excellent points and I will not be playing the game either. I only take issue with your slightly unbalanced assessment of male players -

cynicalandbored:
Men may have been more focused on her breasts, but the fact that she had an attitude was inescapable, albeit an attitude that occasionally spilled over into parody. In some ways original Lara was much more honest than this new, "realistic" Lara.

I see no fundamental difference between one that men only play because they want to ogle her tits and one men only want to play because they feel the need to take care of the poor little girl. Both models of femininity are equally sexist in my opinion.

I play Tomb Raider for exactly the same reasons as you. I like her attitude, I like that she can take care of herself, I enjoy her focused and determined personality and I find that her looks offer a refreshingly interesting counterpoint to a character who would normally represented in the ways this new game is unfortunately exploring. I do not ogle, I do not want to 'take care of'. And I am male. But I'm totally with you in condemning the new game's approach.

Didn't mean to cause any offence, just positing that theory from the perspective of the developers and what they clearly intended for both old and new Lara.

Changing a character from pandering eye candy with no character to a reasonable representation with a character arc is a bad thing?

It's not sexist to remove the overly large breasts. It's not dehumanising anyone.
1) It's closer to the mean, so if we want to talk about dehumanising people (An unsubstantiated bit of nonsense), we're now dehumanising fewer people. But more to the point, the hypersexualisation represents her as a character made for the male audience. She's not there to be relatable, her appearance reflects that. She's a shallow depiction of fantasy.

2) Making the character vulnerable is a simple way to establish a character arc. It makes a simple story, we've seen it millions of times, it's the basis of every sports movie, and a good part of superhero sequels and comics. A character must overcome an insurmountable obstacle which they aren't first a match for by evolving both in skill and personality. Cliche'd and simple? Yes. Sexist? Hardly.

In fact, there even are some other cases of similar character situations. The first that comes to mind is the opening scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. It depicts a younger, less competent protagonist, and hence demonstrates an element of growth. We didn't call that sexist just because Indy was less capable of beating the bad guys.

The original Lara wasn't relatable-she faced down danger without the bat of an eye (More consequence of innadequate technology and writing than anything else I expect), and as a result, the game held little tension. You weren't concerned about the character. This wasn't the way you'd react to sharks and tigers and people trying to shoot you. They were obstacles, simple, gamey obstacles. Not that this is a bad thing, I personally have no problem with games that are self-admittedly gamey, but this always hurts characterisation.

The new Lara is intended to be relatable to the player by giving an impression of how a person might actually react to these situations, and they're trying to demonstrate this by making the player develop over time. It's a pretty simple concept to be honest, having likeable or relatable characters put in danger is a simple and cheap way to raise tension, but it works well enough.

I don't know how anyone can conclude that not being an unstoppable robot person with massive tits, to become someone who isn't as competent (Though, as she assumedly overcomes her obstacles, calling her a weak caricature in the damsel in distress vein isn't really appropriate), and has actual emotions and a character arc, could possibly be seen as sexist, unless someone was trying to be offended, or, more likely, trying to justify the previous incarnation of Lara with a bit of smoke and mirrors, and saying that you want to objectify and dehumanise women for "Feminist" reasons.

Kakulukia:
A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

Thank you for being one of the few who's actually seeing the point. I know I didn't put it well in my original post, but I was pretty angry initially. This sums up exactly what I took issue with.

Batsamaritan:
I wonder what will happen when it gets to the rape scene? Will we have a quick time event to escape or actual controlled action? If so i'm going to put the controller down at that point sit back and drink a cold beer and watch the fun.

what rape scene? I think people are seriously blowing that out of proportion

and...seriosly..no

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