Feminist Kickstarter Project gets Harassed/Threatened

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Ugh, it's not just gamers, it's everywhere. Feminists are looked upon as something extreme in all sectors of society. It's such a shame that humanity is still so uncivilized that they can't listen to a woman like Sarkeesian without all the immature reactions. I hope the government gets involved and fines some of these people. There is no excuse for threatening others; the Internet is not an excuse to lower standards of behavior.

Well, she got 160000 dollars for her "Youtube Series", it looks extremely excessive, and you know what, it really is. Cameras, studios, and other things could amount to at least $10000-25000, and I think that's completely too much money already, Let's plays can be the main method on game research, are completely free, and it shows you the whole game, not to mention some insights on the game itself. So yeah, $160000 are TOO MUCH.

This looks nothing more than a cash grab, with her capitalizing on the image that she's an oppressed woman tormented by men.

Well, good job lady, while others may actually pity you, in my eyes you pushed backed the feminist movement by claiming to be furthering the movement but then using a "damsel in distress" schtick in order to get the funds you need. Hell, other kickstarters regarding feminism never resorted to such an underhanded trick in order to further the feminist movement.

Thatrocketeer:
but then using a "damsel in distress" schtick

Ahahaha no. Oh, internet.

1. Find a thing that annoys you online.
2. Give that thing free publicity.
3. Whine about being "tricked" into giving the thing that annoys you free publicity.

Thatrocketeer:

Well, good job lady, while others may actually pity you, in my eyes you pushed backed the feminist movement by claiming to be furthering the movement but then using a "damsel in distress" schtick in order to get the funds you need. Hell, other kickstarters regarding feminism never resorted to such an underhanded trick in order to further the feminist movement.

She got her project funded in 24h. If the idiots that are the gaming community would've just ignored it it would've reached the ~20-30k$ and everything would've been fine. But now the gaming community behaved like dicks, sites reported that, she got more attention and more money... and now the gaming community complains more. Good Job.

And yes, this is the gaming community. This behaviour is normal and accepted within and some even argue that this behaviour is part of gaming culture.

http://kotaku.com/5886674/bioware-writer-describes-her-gaming-tastes-angry-gamers-call-her-a-cancer

http://kotaku.com/5889637/sexual-harassment-is-a-joke-to-these-fighting-game-fans

And this are the most prominent cases of this year.

Paradoxrifts:
She is and always was a professional feminist propagandist,

Thank you for reminding me that you didn't answer my question the last time I asked, so I'll ask again. You have proven to me that you have never read a single word of actual feminist literature. You had to have gotten your opinion on feminism handed to you by someone else. Who was it? Where did you get this opinion from?

BloatedGuppy:
And I do wish we could stop treating feminists like some terrifying "other" on these forums, some black menace from beyond the void, reaching out with tentacles of pure estrogen to strip away all the rights and privileges of man. It's embarrassing to read.

This issue would be solved if more men would just talk to feminists and find out what it is they actually want and believe.

Thatrocketeer:
Let's plays can be the main method on game research, are completely free, and it shows you the whole game, not to mention some insights on the game itself.

I'm willing to bet money that if a professional game reviewer based all of their reviews on Let's Play videos, half this forum would call for their blood. So that's a hollow statement.

Well, good job lady, while others may actually pity you, in my eyes you pushed backed the feminist movement by claiming to be furthering the movement but then using a "damsel in distress" schtick in order to get the funds you need. Hell, other kickstarters regarding feminism never resorted to such an underhanded trick in order to further the feminist movement.

Did you pay attention to what happened at all? She put the thing up, got harassed, it was reported on, and people funded her because the visibility increased. Why are you blaming her instead of the people who made this such a big deal?

I have to say after watching her videos, I do not agree with any of her views
true she points out problems but not any sort of problem that is worth mentioning. The whole problem with her views are that she wants to either censor what people create or at least heavily impose on them to change. It would be the same as telling an artist to change their painting just because it has too much of a particular color.
If you don't like how things currently are then actually try to change them yourself, don't try to force others to conform to your views because you believe yourself to be politically correct.

Another fact is that she doesn't see the other side of the problem.
Men can also be highly stereotyped in the roles they are portrayed in.
How many games or books or movies have you seen where men seem to only fulfill the role of headstrong and buff or thin and nerdy? Her research seems to only focus on females but you can't just focus on one aspect without addressing the entire problem at hand.
The media, in all its forms with only take the form of fashion magazines - the over sexualized will always appear first and foremost while the majority will be secondhand. When she can start to put the whole issue into her videos then she can actually gain respect.

Kahunaburger:

Ahahaha no. Oh, internet.

1. Find a thing that annoys you online.
2. Give that thing free publicity.
3. Whine about being "tricked" into giving the thing that annoys you free publicity.

Except I never donated to her "cause". Hell I already saw it for the shameless cash grab that it is. I merely posted my opinion on the whole thing.

TheKasp:

She got her project funded in 24h. If the idiots that are the gaming community would've just ignored it it would've reached the ~20-30k$ and everything would've been fine. But now the gaming community behaved like dicks, sites reported that, she got more attention and more money... and now the gaming community complains more. Good Job.

And yes, this is the gaming community. This behaviour is normal and accepted within and some even argue that this behaviour is part of gaming culture.

http://kotaku.com/5886674/bioware-writer-describes-her-gaming-tastes-angry-gamers-call-her-a-cancer

http://kotaku.com/5889637/sexual-harassment-is-a-joke-to-these-fighting-game-fans

And this are the most prominent cases of this year.

What are you talking about? It's the gaming community that's more or less backing the whole thing, a quick look at the comments in the kickstarter page can tell you that. Hell, the gaming community is more or less the misrepresented party in this whole mess anyways.

From the article, it's the Youtube community that's been mostly hurling slurs at her, not gaming, YOUTUBE, the community that's known to be the worst among all communities around, hell, it's even worse than 4chan! People there are overtly aggressive, not to mention prone to threats the moment you post something that they disagree with especially with touchy topics like the feminist movement itself. I'm not surprised that this is the community that they chose to represent her "attackers", anyone can get a sob story with this community.

But do you wanna know how you can avoid those comments? Disable the comments on your video. You can do that if you posted the video. You don't need the comments anyway if you just want people to know about your kickstarter thing. Clearly she didn't, and hell, she was able to use that for her schtick. And you're wondering why I didn't take her side.

Also, Kotaku overtly exaggerates things, though I may have seen the Hepler thing back on /v/ and here. But hey, Bioware had their own PR to deal with that mess, not to mention I remember Hepler actually baiting the trolls by fighting back. She should've just let the PR people of Bioware handle those stuff.

BNguyen:
If you don't like how things currently are then actually try to change them yourself, don't try to force others to conform to your views because you believe yourself to be politically correct.

This set off a warning bell in my head, so I have two questions.

1. Where would you start changing things?
2. What is your definition of political correctness?

Another fact is that she doesn't see the other side of the problem.
Men can also be highly stereotyped in the roles they are portrayed in.

As a man, I'm the first to complain that male characters are too stereotyped, but it's not comparable because it's a different kind of stereotype. Besides, how is this even remotely, "the other side?" How are they diametrically opposed? How are they in competition with one another?

I am so sick of this stupid talking point. It's not the same thing.

Thatrocketeer:
What are you talking about? It's the gaming community that's more or less backing the whole thing, a quick look at the comments in the kickstarter page can tell you that. Hell, the gaming community is more or less the misrepresented party in this whole mess anyways.

No, I don't buy that anymore. Gamers use YouTube, too, shockingly enough. If as a community we're going to move past this, we have to own up to it first.

But do you wanna know how you can avoid those comments? Disable the comments on your video. You can do that if you posted the video. You don't need the comments anyway if you just want people to know about your kickstarter thing. Clearly she didn't, and hell, she was able to use that for her schtick. And you're wondering why I didn't take her side.

So you assume that it's a scam on her part?

DrVornoff:
So you assume that it's a scam on her part?

Confirmation biases are wonderful things. All feminists are wily tricksters, didn't you know?

DrVornoff:
I'm willing to bet money that if a professional game reviewer based all of their reviews on Let's Play videos, half this forum would call for their blood. So that's a hollow statement.

Game reviewers also need to review graphics, how a game works, bugs and glitches, replayability, technical stuff about the game.

She's doing a documentary on female characters and how they're represented in video games.

Thing is, you don't need to play a game to know and judge a character, you do need to play it to know and judge technicalities in a game. There's a difference. Let's plays can let you know a character for free, without getting into the technicalities, plus some free insight on characters. Ever seen the LP on KOTOR 2? They did a great job on explaining Kreia's character, not to mention providing some insights as well.

Did you pay attention to what happened at all? She put the thing up, got harassed, it was reported on, and people funded her because the visibility increased. Why are you blaming her instead of the people who made this such a big deal?

I'm not blaming her. I'm saying I'm having a hard time seeing this as a not-a-cash-grab kickstarter. The article said that youtube comments are the main source of harassment, which could've been avoided had she disabled the comments when posting her video.

The article did nothing but generalize the gaming community once again and placed it in a light where we're the "bad guys" once again, when in fact that there are other types of communities in youtube aside from gamers that could've made the harassments such as those who hate feminism as a movement, those who hate her, those who hate her views, and so on and so forth.

If you'd take a look at the comments in her kickstarter page, you can see that mostly gamers support her cause.

DrVornoff:

So you assume that it's a scam on her part?

It feels that way to me. This is nothing against what she is trying to accomplish but a lack of faith in humanity in general when it comes to that kind of cash (or any kind of cash really). Hell, it may not have even started as a scam but merely smelled opportunity when the commenters attacked.

That kind of cash can easily split families, a person selling out is trivial compared to that. I guess it now depends on how she uses the cash.

TheKasp:

Thatrocketeer:

Well, good job lady, while others may actually pity you, in my eyes you pushed backed the feminist movement by claiming to be furthering the movement but then using a "damsel in distress" schtick in order to get the funds you need. Hell, other kickstarters regarding feminism never resorted to such an underhanded trick in order to further the feminist movement.

She got her project funded in 24h. If the idiots that are the gaming community would've just ignored it it would've reached the ~20-30k$ and everything would've been fine. But now the gaming community behaved like dicks, sites reported that, she got more attention and more money... and now the gaming community complains more. Good Job.

And yes, this is the gaming community. This behaviour is normal and accepted within and some even argue that this behaviour is part of gaming culture.

http://kotaku.com/5886674/bioware-writer-describes-her-gaming-tastes-angry-gamers-call-her-a-cancer

http://kotaku.com/5889637/sexual-harassment-is-a-joke-to-these-fighting-game-fans

And this are the most prominent cases of this year.

Bullshit this is the gaming community, this was spammed on 4chan (presumably by the woman herself) who then probably raided the comments. Not that Youtube is a gaming site anyway.

Kahunaburger:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:
None of the criticism they received was warranted. They weren't rude to rape survivors

Except for the non-apology strip,

That wasn't aimed at rape survivors that was aimed at their critics. Some overlap probably but it's not the same.

Kahunaburger:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:
Because rape was not meant to be the joke

Yep. But it was part of the joke's set-up, and when they got called out on that, they absolutely started making rape trigger jokes,

Where?

Father Time:

Kahunaburger:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun:
Because rape was not meant to be the joke

Yep. But it was part of the joke's set-up, and when they got called out on that, they absolutely started making rape trigger jokes,

Where?

Check this thread for a link - I'm pretty sure I left one a page or two back from the quoted post.

Father Time:

Bullshit this is the gaming community, this was spammed on 4chan (presumably by the woman herself) who then probably raided the comments. Not that Youtube is a gaming site anyway.

So 4chan is not a big part of the gaming community? I mean, they are used as an excuse by many, the behaviour online is like from people on 4chan and every situation even close related to treating women like actual humans was met with same hostility as this project. I linked you two stories that were prominent, there are sure more than those. In both cases the forum community here and in many other defended this behaviour or tried to excuse that.

Yeah, 4chan is pretty much like the gaming community... because they are part of it.

Thatrocketeer:
Game reviewers also need to review graphics, how a game works, bugs and glitches, replayability, technical stuff about the game.

She's doing a documentary on female characters and how they're represented in video games.

Thing is, you don't need to play a game to know and judge a character, you do need to play it to know and judge technicalities in a game. There's a difference. Let's plays can let you know a character for free, without getting into the technicalities, plus some free insight on characters. Ever seen the LP on KOTOR 2? They did a great job on explaining Kreia's character, not to mention providing some insights as well.

Still not buying it. If she did use Let's Plays, it would not silence her critics.

I'm not blaming her. I'm saying I'm having a hard time seeing this as a not-a-cash-grab kickstarter. The article said that youtube comments are the main source of harassment, which could've been avoided had she disabled the comments when posting her video.

It never occurred to you that she wasn't counting on a shitstorm of entitled man-children? And if you block the comments after the harassment starts, they use that as ammunition too and find other ways to harass you.

The article did nothing but generalize the gaming community once again and placed it in a light where we're the "bad guys" once again, when in fact that there are other types of communities in youtube aside from gamers that could've made the harassments such as those who hate feminism as a movement, those who hate her, those who hate her views, and so on and so forth.

Then maybe it's time for gamers to start owning up to the problems in our community. Maybe we wouldn't be so stereotype if we were more willing to stand up to troublemakers instead of shifting the blame onto someone else.

If you'd take a look at the comments in her kickstarter page, you can see that mostly gamers support her cause.

What does this prove exactly? That not every gamer is an asshole? I don't believe anyone was suggesting the contrary.

Ryotknife:
It feels that way to me. This is nothing against what she is trying to accomplish but a lack of faith in humanity in general when it comes to that kind of cash (or any kind of cash really). Hell, it may not have even started as a scam but merely smelled opportunity when the commenters attacked.

That kind of cash can easily split families, a person selling out is trivial compared to that. I guess it now depends on how she uses the cash.

I'm not drunk enough right now to be that cynical.

It definitely brought a tear of joy to my eye to hear that there are people out there who still believe the hateful tossers on the internet can be stopped. If there is a way, I will do anything in my power to help it get done.

DrVornoff:

Then maybe it's time for gamers to start owning up to the problems in our community. Maybe we wouldn't be so stereotype if we were more willing to stand up to troublemakers instead of shifting the blame onto someone else.

This. I can not say this enough. It's bad enough that this actually happened, but to then come in here and see a large group of users not only shift the blame onto everyone but themselves, but to the creator herself, "Oh, it was her plan all along to be harassed to make money, she deserved it!!!"

Yeah...no.

And then to see another topic pop up with the usual "female protagonists might be mis-represented, but so are males!"

Yeah...no...again.

I just....I just....quit the internet. Turn it off. Let's all go home, it was nice while it lasted.

Vrex360:

She has a bachelor's in communications as well as a Master's degree in Social and political thought. Her videos have been used in women's studies at Universities as examples when talking about women's representations in our media. I myself used one of her videos 'The Straw Feminist' as part of one of my media assignments.

But this is the thing, that I and others have noticed. Her research is bad. The examples she uses in that episode? The powerpuff girls episode, if you've watched it, goes on to show that femme fatale is an example of "fake" feminism. The other female charactesr of the show band together and tell the girls off, and show that the woman on the coin (forget her name) demanded to go to prison for breaking the law, since she didnt want special treatment.
And her episode about women in refrigerators in comics, the spider-man example was taken out of context. This is the only time a superhero has failed to save "the girl", and she was a supporting character. The death was meaningful, and not crash or an exploitation.

She is on the right side, equalism, but she doesn't do her job very well. She also believes in the patriarchy.

undeadsuitor:

DrVornoff:

Then maybe it's time for gamers to start owning up to the problems in our community. Maybe we wouldn't be so stereotype if we were more willing to stand up to troublemakers instead of shifting the blame onto someone else.

This. I can not say this enough. It's bad enough that this actually happened, but to then come in here and see a large group of users not only shift the blame onto everyone but themselves, but to the creator herself, "Oh, it was her plan all along to be harassed to make money, she deserved it!!!"

Yeah...no.

And then to see another topic pop up with the usual "female protagonists might be mis-represented, but so are males!"

Yeah...no...again.

I just....I just....quit the internet. Turn it off. Let's all go home, it was nice while it lasted.

the only reason people say that is because someone spammed 4chan with kicker-starter project. It may not be a good reason but someone took advantage of 4chan's stupidity.

Don't you love this situation?
If you agree with her, then you are obviously in the right.
If you disagree you are obviously mysogonistic or hate her or dont get it.
Or: you are paranoid and believe all feminists are in some sort of conspiracy together.
Course, the people who believe in the patriarchy are totaly in the right...
If you say this isn't the gaming community: "Oh come on! Admit that you have a problem! ADMIT IT!"

Ledan:
Don't you love this situation?
If you agree with her, then you are obviously in the right.
If you disagree you are obviously mysogonistic or hate her or dont get it.
Or: you are paranoid and believe all feminists are in some sort of conspiracy together.
Course, the people who believe in the patriarchy are totaly in the right...
If you say this isn't the gaming community: "Oh come on! Admit that you have a problem! ADMIT IT!"

yeah that's why I can't admit the entire gaming community has a problem because it's not the entire gaming community. I don't like broad statements and most of them are faulty logic when looked at in depth by the sheer fact, there will always be some who don't subscribe to the "norm". Even if there's a small chance of something occurring, it renders a statement useless if it uses "absolutely" in any shape or form.

I also love being called a sexist pig for the simple fact I disagree on the premise that she is not objective in her overview at all and I disagree with many of her silly opinions on the premise that she's going out of her way to find things sexist.

Not to mention that few American developers actually create sexist video games anymore. the largest complaints are from Asian developers who don't care what they think. When lollipop chainsaw and skullgirls are your two big complaints recently out of the dozen of game releases... that only proves my point that sexism in video games has had significant progress rather than "it's everywhere".

I also have a problem with the double standard that many females have when dealing with issues like that. Saying "How does my balls in your mouth?" is a form of harassment regardless of whether or not it was said to either female or male. Of course they say it's just gender-neutral or something similar statement, but when it's said to a female, it's a form of harassment. That reeks of issues on a fundamental level and general lack of concern they have for the male point of view (as well as stereotyping men).

Of course both sides have issues. We say males are stereotyped, they say it's just male power fantasy (which to be honest... the male power fantasy is to be wanted by females to some degree whether by wealth, power, proving our worth/manhood or beauty/attraction.) In my eyes, both the male and female power fantasy is nothing more than the flip side of sexy girls/guys for the other gender.

They can have their equality once they ditch the double standards in my opinion.

Ledan:
Don't you love this situation?
If you agree with her, then you are obviously in the right.
If you disagree you are obviously mysogonistic or hate her or dont get it.
Or: you are paranoid and believe all feminists are in some sort of conspiracy together.

I would love to see where I accused you of that. Do tell.

Andrew_Waltfeld:
We say males are stereotyped, they say it's just male power fantasy (which to be honest... the male power fantasy is to be wanted by females to some degree whether by wealth, power, proving our worth/manhood or beauty/attraction.)

So the only power fantasy you have ever had in your entire life was to get fucked dry?

DrVornoff:

Ledan:
Don't you love this situation?
If you agree with her, then you are obviously in the right.
If you disagree you are obviously mysogonistic or hate her or dont get it.
Or: you are paranoid and believe all feminists are in some sort of conspiracy together.

I would love to see where I accused you of that. Do tell.

Andrew_Waltfeld:
We say males are stereotyped, they say it's just male power fantasy (which to be honest... the male power fantasy is to be wanted by females to some degree whether by wealth, power, proving our worth/manhood or beauty/attraction.)

So the only power fantasy you have ever had in your entire life was to get fucked dry?

that or super powers or general badass. Being an Arnold Schwarzenegger is not necessary for any of those when a typical fit body would suffice for all of those 3.

especially considering that maintaining that kind of body would require your entire lifestyle being dedicated to that single purpose for the Kratos, Gears of war, SC2, etc etc body type.

in fact i doubt most males want that kind of body.

Just like a women with enormous breasts are prejudged to be bimbos, guys with a Kratos like body are prejudged to be stupid, have anger issues, and small sex organs. So pray tell me why would i want that as part of my fantasy?

The level of anonymity given to a person is proportional to how much of a dick they're going to be.

I honestly think a lot of this backlash is due to other "feminists" who pretend they know what's best for gaming and gamers in general because they're "gurl gamers". I can't remember her name, but there's a video out there called something like "Gaming From A Girl's Perspective" that really pissed me and a lot of my friends off because it was based on lies ("70% of all gamers are women") and just attacking men ("I'm not saying men are the problem, but men are the one who makes these games"). I think people just need to calm the fuck down and talk about these issues in a calm manner.

Honestly, I wish there was a system in place that if you wanted to call yourself anything, you would have to take a test that proved you understood the basic principles behind it and promised to be moderate about it.

Andrew_Waltfeld:

Ledan:
Don't you love this situation?
If you agree with her, then you are obviously in the right.
If you disagree you are obviously mysogonistic or hate her or dont get it.
Or: you are paranoid and believe all feminists are in some sort of conspiracy together.
Course, the people who believe in the patriarchy are totaly in the right...
If you say this isn't the gaming community: "Oh come on! Admit that you have a problem! ADMIT IT!"

yeah that's why I can't admit the entire gaming community has a problem because it's not the entire gaming community. I don't like broad statements and most of them are faulty logic when looked at in depth by the sheer fact, there will always be some who don't subscribe to the "norm". Even if there's a small chance of something occurring, it renders a statement useless if it uses "absolutely" in any shape or form.

I also love being called a sexist pig for the simple fact I disagree on the premise that she is not objective in her overview at all and I disagree with many of her silly opinions on the premise that she's going out of her way to find things sexist.

Not to mention that few American developers actually create sexist video games anymore. the largest complaints are from Asian developers who don't care what they think. When lollipop chainsaw and skullgirls are your two big complaints recently out of the dozen of game releases... that only proves my point that sexism in video games has had significant progress rather than "it's everywhere".

I also have a problem with the double standard that many females have when dealing with issues like that. Saying "How does my balls in your mouth?" is a form of harassment regardless of whether or not it was said to either female or male. Of course they say it's just gender-neutral or something similar statement, but when it's said to a female, it's a form of harassment. That reeks of issues on a fundamental level and general lack of concern they have for the male point of view.

Of course both sides have issues. We say males are stereotyped, they say it's just male power fantasy (which to be honest... the male power fantasy is to be wanted by females to some degree whether by wealth, power, proving our worth/manhood or beauty/attraction.) In my eyes, both the male and female power fantasy is nothing more than the flip side of sexy girls/guys for the other gender.

They can have their equality once they ditch the double standards in my opinion.

How exactly are these insults not gender-based:
- Threat of rape
- Calling her a 'cunt'
- Telling her to stay in the kitchen
- Telling her she should shut up and make sandvich
- Accusing her of being a lesbian
- Saying women shouldn't have any opinion or any say

You disregard the fact that many of the insults slung at her were for her BEING A WOMAN. That's what makes it sexist.

Yes, both women and men are stereotyped often in games... The difference is, male stereotypes are generally positive, they're fantasies. Males are strong, focussed, decisive,... etc etc.
Females are more of then not stereotyped as being basically decoration on your screen.

No, I don't think ALL gamers are sexists. I don't even think the majority necessarily are.

I don't think all games are sexist either;
in fact I had a quick look at my games collection, and the only game I can find immediately that I played that might be sexist is Batman Arkham City - if you imagine that catwoman is basically portrayed as some kind of slut who is sexually harassed by every random evil minion she fights (like if batman fights guys, they go "Oh no it's the Bat, get him quick! when Catwoman fights them they go "Hey it's that bitch, let rape her guys!"); though the basic fact that she kicks some serious ass makes it imo not sexist.

(I'm thinking 'sexist' is a big word. I just imagined a very common trope, namely the "your girlfriend/wife dies, your mission is revenge". Max Payne series; Far Cry 3; probably most action movies ever made; I bet everyone can imagine a few of these. I don't think this is really 'sexist', or at least was done with any 'sexist' intention; then again, is there any game in which the main character is female, and seeks revenge for the murder of her husband/child? It's a missed opportunity, not sexism.)

But acting like there is no problem at all, is not going to help.
The basic fact that her facebook page got defamed, that she gets death-threats, that she gets reviewbombed, that she gets harassed on twitter etc etc, the fact this very thread has 270 replies, and the one in the News Room 1137,... shows that there IS a problem.
Just going "no everything's fine, it's all in their feminist heads... Go make sandvich, ya dumb broads. *lights cigar*" isn't doing any good to anybody.

It is true however that often in games, w

Also, complaining about being generalized, and then generalizing all women as having extreme feminist views... haha dude, haha.

Ryotknife:
that or super powers or general badass. Being an Arnold Schwarzenegger is not necessary for any of those when a typical fit body would suffice for all of those 3.

It's actually far more preferable. You have this thread and others where women are here telling you point blank that they don't find Kratos sexy because aside from the fact that he has a face like a stone crag his body looks like the centerpiece in a PSA about steroid abuse directed by David Cronenberg.

DrVornoff:

Ryotknife:
that or super powers or general badass. Being an Arnold Schwarzenegger is not necessary for any of those when a typical fit body would suffice for all of those 3.

It's actually far more preferable. You have this thread and others where women are here telling you point blank that they don't find Kratos sexy because aside from the fact that he has a face like a stone crag his body looks like the centerpiece in a PSA about steroid abuse directed by David Cronenberg.

okay...so muscled bound thugs dont appeal to men or women....

I could understand huge muscles from a sense of realism if your character need to do something strength related. Or if your character is say...a barbarian. although realism is kinda out of fashion right now.

although Kratos is probably a bad example as he kinda creeps people the #$%^ out. I wouldnt blame women for not wanting to have sex with him, the guy is always angry.

TheKasp:

Father Time:

Bullshit this is the gaming community, this was spammed on 4chan (presumably by the woman herself) who then probably raided the comments. Not that Youtube is a gaming site anyway.

So 4chan is not a big part of the gaming community? I mean, they are used as an excuse by many, the behaviour online is like from people on 4chan and every situation even close related to treating women like actual humans was met with same hostility as this project. I linked you two stories that were prominent, there are sure more than those. In both cases the forum community here and in many other defended this behaviour or tried to excuse that.

Yeah, 4chan is pretty much like the gaming community... because they are part of it.

Bullshit, they aren't dedicated to games, so they aren't part of it. And cut the dramatics there were lots of time when suggestions to treat women better were supported. See extra credits for starters.

Ryotknife:
okay...so muscled bound thugs dont appeal to men or women....

why are they all over the place in games? I could understand from a sense of realism if your character need to do something strength related. Or if your character is say...a barbarian.

although Kratos is probably a bad example as he kinda creeps everyone the #$%^ out

Despite stereotypes about "big muscles, small mind/package," men still see the muscular warrior as this atavistic ideal. Big muscles are the simplest visual expression of brute strength, and that appeals to guys who don't know how to be men by harkening back to a world that never was, a fictional time where men were men and everything was simple and easy to understand.

Father Time:
Bullshit, they aren't dedicated to games, so they aren't part of it. And cut the dramatics there were lots of time when suggestions to treat women better were supported. See extra credits for starters.

The problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact that community is made up of many individuals, not all of whom agree. Would you say that the trash-talking fuckwits on Xbox Live don't count as gamers because of how nasty, mean-spirited and crass they are? Of course you wouldn't. They are gamers, there's no getting around that. But you can't simultaneously point to people who oppose them and claim that this absolves the community.

Similarly, I've seen numerous guys here whose vision of feminism was obviously handed to them by someone else. Yeah, there are extremist feminists in the world just like in every other ideology. But these same gamers who claim that the harassment seen in this case is not coming from the gaming community will in the next breath ignore the fact that feminism has many different schools of thought and supporters and instead paint every feminist as some sort of Andrea Dworkin fever dream. Can't have it both ways.

There's plenty of women who find muscular, manly men attractive. Indeed, the majority of females do prefer fit alpha males so a scant few protesting otherwise makes their point pretty moot.

That's a different issue to the one at hand though, calling 4chan and YouTube commentators the gaming community is disingenuous at best. They're just as much the movie or tv community. We should really let this w.hole episode and it's well paid superstar fade away into obscurity

GoaThief:
There's plenty of women who find muscular, manly men attractive. Indeed, the majority of females do prefer fit alpha males so a scant few protesting otherwise makes their point pretty moot.

So you make no distinction between "toned and muscular" and "steroid casserole?" And what is a manly man exactly? What is a manly man like?

All you're really doing is showing me that you don't know what women want. So let me lay it out for you. Women are not wired to find the same things attractive that men do. You cannot find out a woman finds attractive by asking a gay man what he thinks is attractive.

Women like a man who is physically fit because of what it communicates. She sees a guy in good physical shape and thinks, "This is a guy who knows how to take care of himself." For a lot of women, tall, toned athletes represent safety because subconsciously she recognizes him as having an advantage in a fight. She sees a guy who's well off and thinks that this is a man who knows how to manage resources.

Women aren't looking at men for signs of fertility because men can spread their DNA once or twice a day pretty easily. She on the other hand only gets one egg a month and has to be pickier about who gets to fertilize it.

And this isn't just the stuff in this thread. I have seen consistently that women are much more attracted to fictional heroes like Alistair Thierin, Indiana Jones and Aragorn than they are to Markus Fenix or Conan as played by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Why? Because the former three are masculine men as opposed to manly men. A masculine man is much more interesting and has far more positive qualities. That is what women want. Hell, even Ron Jeremy has said that size queens are an extreme minority of women.

That's a different issue to the one at hand though, calling 4chan and YouTube commentators the gaming community is disingenuous at best. They're just as much the movie or tv community. We should really let this w.hole episode and it's well paid superstar fade away into obscurity

Again, stop trying to shift the blame. Stop it. Are you saying that no one who uses 4chan or YouTube is a gamer?

DrVornoff:

Again, stop trying to shift the blame. Stop it. Are you saying that no one who uses 4chan or YouTube is a gamer?

that still doesnt make it the "gaming community."

At best its "a community in which there may be a few gamers"

and by that logic EVERY community is a gaming community.

Also, im having a hard time swallowing the "size doesnt matter." each one of your examples, body type and resource management, has a logic behind it. but so does the "size matters" part.

I am also not buying the muscled guy as part of the male fantasy. back in the old days, sure. if you wanted power you needed that kind of body, you cant have one without the other.

but nowadays? when people like Dante from DMC are pulling off moves or any other fit guy in any video game? huge muscles and bad ass powers and moves no longer have any real connectivity with one another, which just leaves the negative stereotypes involved with huge muscles.

Ryotknife:
that still doesnt make it the "gaming community."

At best its "a community in which there may be a few gamers"

and by that logic EVERY community is a gaming community.

My point is that if someone identifies as a gamer, you don't get to say that they're not just because of whatever website they mad an ass of themselves on.

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