Who said MMOs never change?

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Chills.

Apologize for the lowered video settings in the cutscene. Fraps like to stutter during cutscenes for some reason, think it may be my hard drive getting old.

Yeah, TSW's story and investigation missions are pretty interesting...

Too bad the combat is generic as generic comes. The skill tree is kinda cool though.

But we've seen interesting story before, haven't we? Didn't save Old Republic apparently, which had Star Wars and Bioware brand behind it. This game has... what going for it, exactly?

Seems like every new MMO does a pretty good innovation in one area and one area alone, and calls itself the second coming of WoW (or the third coming of everquest maybe?)

I think TSW's story content is leaps and bounds beyond what Star Wars did. Not only is the writing better and deeper, but it focuses on a greater mystery instead of "right" vs. "wrong" and your character alone. In addition, SW:ToR's player characters were voiced, which was terrible, I don't want a company to tell me how my character should sound!

There is also the uniqueness of the Lovecraftian/ Stephen King-like setting TSW has going on which makes it really immersive and interesting (and fresh!) for me.

I don't mind the combat. The inner ring abilities are mostly lacklustre, but as soon as I got "Bullet Ballet" in Pistols I was LOVING IT! If you haven't seen the ability, it goes like this, more or less:

not only that, but outer ring abilities are much better than inner ring ones in general. Which is a double-edged sword. It can turn off beginners, but at least they are focusing on making the ones players will use the most as good as they can be (you shouldn't be using inner ring at all when you're done with the first areas)

Also, the DUNGEONS! Funcom is king of dungeon design, they showed it with Rise of the Godslayer and they've done it again. Next weekend they show PvP, which if good will hopefully get players into it more.

I'm glad we begin the new process of hype and disappointment with TSW, it is always interesting to see :/

Cavan:
I'm glad we begin the new process of hype and disappointment with TSW, it is always interesting to see :/

Well aren't you an optimistic fellow.

But then again, you're just a bear!

Metalhandkerchief:

Cavan:
I'm glad we begin the new process of hype and disappointment with TSW, it is always interesting to see :/

Well aren't you an optimistic fellow.

But then again, you're just a bear!

Can't reason with bears. They just bring everything down with their constant negative outlook.

In all seriousness, we haven't even finished the over-hype process with GW2 yet, so I must respectfully demand that you guys wait until that game is out before starting on TSW.

This track is only big enough for ONE hype train, y'hear?

OT: Game looks interesting, but nothing revolutionary there, at least from what I could see.

Mr Cwtchy:

Can't reason with bears. They just bring everything down with their constant negative outlook.

In all seriousness, we haven't even finished the over-hype process with GW2 yet, so I must respectfully demand that you guys wait until that game is out before starting on TSW.

This track is only big enough for ONE hype train, y'hear?

OT: Game looks interesting, but nothing revolutionary there, at least from what I could see.

Well, Guild Wars 2 comes out AFTER The Secret World, so that is out of the question, mister!

I've played Guild Wars 2 as well, and while the combat is good the game is pretty standard with it's elves and orcs colourful fantasy approach. Also, the textures and scenery models are sooo 2009 :P

I don't want to play a game like that again. It does have some nice gameplay though, but not so much better than TSW that I'd care to ditch this X-filesy gem.

The games are different enough that they're not competitors anyway.

I'll probably get GW2 some time anyway, to be a more casual 2nd game for me. But not until I know what they community is going to be like. Looking at the people hyping GW2 as of now, I bet it'll be much like 4chan and that's a no-buy for me.

Metalhandkerchief:

Cavan:
I'm glad we begin the new process of hype and disappointment with TSW, it is always interesting to see :/

Well aren't you an optimistic fellow.

But then again, you're just a bear!

Hey..that's (totally)speciesist D:

This cycle has repeated more times than I can count. People really like to lord the latest MMO over others, and people really seem to like pulling them apart from all their flaws before saying that it was always a stupid idea compared to the next MMO idea.

Let's just say that Funcom doesn't have a great track record, and that no matter how interesting the setting and story might seem at first..will wear out and you will be left with generic broken MMO.

I also disagree with having both a subscription fee and a cash shop in this game.

Cavan:
Let's just say that Funcom doesn't have a great track record

Third time's a charm!

Cavan:
generic broken MMO.

Except it's neither generic or broken!

Cavan:
I also disagree with having both a subscription fee and a cash shop in this game.

I strongly agree with it. It's optional clothing that doesn't affect anyone in any way, and Funcom makes more money to develop further excellent content. It's a win-win. Cash shops have come to stay for good whether you like it or not, and at least Funcom have one where you never have to buy a single thing.

And I am speciest! Down with bears! Long life and glory to ferrets!

Metalhandkerchief:

I strongly agree with it. It's optional clothing that doesn't affect anyone in any way, and Funcom makes more money to develop further excellent content. It's a win-win. Cash shops have come to stay for good whether you like it or not, and at least Funcom have one where you never have to buy a single thing.

Gonna have to draw the line here.

I must express my disgust for a game that requires you to pay for it by subscription, but withholds content for further payment. Paid DLC selling vanity content for a game that you own is one thing, (though still an underhanded business practice if you ask me) but requiring you to pay for content you will lose all access to once you cut off your subscription? That's ludicrous.

I suppose it would be palatable if it's not the size of a FtP cash shop.

Your comment about what the money would be going towards is rather presumptuous as well. Not only do you presume the game you haven't played will be "excellent content", but you presume that a cash shop will serve the game's development.

Here's a little trade secret; no paid game ever has ever developed a cash shop for anything other than making money for money's sake.

Even most FtP games with cash shops try to squeeze as much from each purchase as possible.

I still really don't see what all the fuss about TSW is. I've watched TB's stream of it, and I still don't get it. It looks and plays like a mediocre mmo. The graphics are nothing special, and the storytelling is on par, at best. The combat is nowhere near "revolutionary" or even partially amazing. The setting is just boring. I love most things involving the Knights Templar and the Illuminati, but this is just dull.

I've had people denounce GW2 and tell me that I'm going to end up wasting my money on it because "TSW IS OBIVOUSLY GON BLOW GW2 OUT OF THE WATESR" and frankly that does not bode well for the game itself.

Innegativeion:

Metalhandkerchief:

I strongly agree with it. It's optional clothing that doesn't affect anyone in any way, and Funcom makes more money to develop further excellent content. It's a win-win. Cash shops have come to stay for good whether you like it or not, and at least Funcom have one where you never have to buy a single thing.

Gonna have to draw the line here.

I must express my disgust for a game that requires you to pay for it by subscription, but withholds content for further payment. Paid DLC selling vanity content for a game that you own is one thing, (though still an underhanded business practice if you ask me) but requiring you to pay for content you will lose all access to once you cut off your subscription? That's ludicrous.

I suppose it would be palatable if it's not the size of a FtP cash shop.

Your comment about what the money would be going towards is rather presumptuous as well. Not only do you presume the game you haven't played will be "excellent content", but you presume that a cash shop will serve the game's development.

Here's a little trade secret; no paid game ever has ever developed a cash shop for anything other than making money for money's sake.

Even most FtP games with cash shops try to squeeze as much from each purchase as possible.

We've seen previews of the cash shop. You're being irrational. You don't have to buy the clothing. The same clothing can be gotten in-game through other means. This is basically "pay to look cool without waiting to earn coolness" and with the game having thousands of clothing options that's frankly a great thing because everyone can look exactly how they want.

And in case you missed the memo: clothing has no stats. The gear that gives stats are talismans, previously called chakras, and aren't displayed on your character.

kortin:
I still really don't see what all the fuss about TSW is. I've watched TB's stream of it, and I still don't get it. It looks and plays like a mediocre mmo. The graphics are nothing special, and the storytelling is on par, at best.

I've had people denounce GW2 and tell me that I'm going to end up wasting my money on it because "TSW IS OBIVOUSLY GON BLOW GW2 OUT OF THE WATESR" and frankly that does not bode well for the game itself.

The fuss is:

-550 abilities, you can have them all. You never have to roll an alt character, for any reason. Sure, the first abilities you will get for each weapon aren't that cool or great, but they are designed to be an entrance to learning the game. The outer ring abilities look way cooler and do more specific things that you can exploit and make combos of, much like a Magic: The Gathering system.

-No artificial walls to block you off from content. You will be able to go anywhere at any time and do whatever you want. The thing blocking you out is your own skill and your gear and build, but you can always party with friends.

-Dungeon content. Anyone who like this type of content will absolutely lurve TSW. I said lurve. Funcom are unparallelled in game design when it comes to MMO dungeon and raid design.

-The graphics are great. You are wrong. Maybe you meant to say the character models aren't great, I can get behind that. But everything else is stunning. You may also, like many others, be confusing graphics for art direction.

This is TSW:

Gritty........Realistic........Stylized
.............X.............................

This is GW2:

Gritty........Realistic........Stylized
..........................................X

This is TERA:

Gritty........Realistic........Stylized
..................................X.........

Art direction is a preference, and I thoroughly enjoy the one in TSW and abhor GW2 while feeling TERA is lackluster. But again, this can never be anything but someone's opinion.

The environment design in The Secret World is the most graphically fantastic I've seen in an MMO. It blows Tera out of the water. While Tera and GW2 blows TSW out of the water with character models (but not art direction-wise IMO)

Also TB's stream is outdated, and he played like a total noob in this game. Since the stream combat has been improved.

kortin:
I still really don't see what all the fuss about TSW is. I've watched TB's stream of it, and I still don't get it. It looks and plays like a mediocre mmo. The graphics are nothing special, and the storytelling is on par, at best. The combat is nowhere near "revolutionary" or even partially amazing. The setting is just boring. I love most things involving the Knights Templar and the Illuminati, but this is just dull.

I've had people denounce GW2 and tell me that I'm going to end up wasting my money on it because "TSW IS OBIVOUSLY GON BLOW GW2 OUT OF THE WATESR" and frankly that does not bode well for the game itself.

You think that's bad?

I've had people tell me things along the lines of, "But Guild Wars 2 is free to play!! How good could it be?", as a kind of justification for their knee-jerk behavior. Apparently, an MMO (to some) needs to have a monthly subscription, or else it 'doesn't count.'

How does that work? lol

Metalhandkerchief:
The fuss is:

-550 abilities, you can have them all. You never have to roll an alt character, for any reason. Sure, the first abilities you will get for each weapon aren't that cool or great, but they are designed to be an entrance to learning the game. The outer ring abilities look way cooler and do more specific things that you can exploit and make combos of, much like a Magic: The Gathering system.

Don't like that. I like to have alts. Playing one character gets dull after a while, it's why I make specially made characters in TES games that are designed for ONE specialization, because having one character who can do everything just feels idiotic.

-No artificial walls to block you off from content. You will be able to go anywhere at any time and do whatever you want. The thing blocking you out is your own skill and your gear and build, but you can always party with friends.

You are aware that what you just said contradicts itself, yes? "You can go anywhere, unless your gear and build aren't good enough". That's a VERY large wall in of itself.

-Dungeon content. Anyone who like this type of content will absolutely lurve TSW. I said lurve. Funcom are unparallelled in game design when it comes to MMO dungeon and raid design.

Very opinionated and not at all objective, try again.

-The graphics are great. You are wrong. Maybe you meant to say the character models aren't great, I can get behind that. But everything else is stunning. You may also, like many others, be confusing graphics for art direction.

This is TSW:

Gritty........Realistic........Stylized
.............X.............................

This is GW2:

Gritty........Realistic........Stylized
..........................................X

This is TERA:

Gritty........Realistic........Stylized
..................................X.........

Art direction is a preference, and I thoroughly enjoy the one in TSW and abhor GW2 while feeling TERA is lackluster. But again, this can never be anything but someone's opinion.

The environment design in The Secret World is the most graphically fantastic I've seen in an MMO. It blows Tera out of the water. While Tera and GW2 blows TSW out of the water with character models (but not art direction-wise IMO)

No, I meant graphics. They hurt my eyes. While watching a video of it. After CoD's gritty-realistic graphics for a year or so, I'm done with that type of graphic style. You must not have seen a lot of MMO games, then.

Also TB's stream is outdated, and he played like a total noob in this game. Since the stream combat has been improved.

Whether or not he played like a noob doesn't matter. The game looked dull, the combat had the feeling of a complete unimagined wreck, and I can safely say it's the only TB video that I walked away from feeling like I wasted my time. With the amount of praise the game gets, I expected A LOT better of it.

First MMO I've played that makes you think. The investigation missions are fantastic, that way. The combat isn't exactly revolutionary, but I'm fine with that. The atmosphere of the game is more important to me in an MMO, and they do an amazing job of it. Can't wait for the full release.

Jaden Kazega:
You think that's bad?

I've had people tell me things along the lines of, "But Guild Wars 2 is free to play!! How good could it be?", as a kind of justification for their knee-jerk behavior. Apparently, an MMO (to some) needs to have a monthly subscription, or else it 'doesn't count.'

How does that work? lol

No idea. I know it's mostly just fanboyishness, but whenever a game such as this is praised as much as it is, I just can't see where it's coming from. I didn't exactly expect a lot from the game, either (which just makes the praise all the more confusing). The story had intrigued me to begin with (because Templar and Illuminati, what's there to not intrigue?), but as I learned more about it, I found myself getting even more bored.

I was looking forward to it till I played the beta. It's even worse than Conan. I've never played such a mechanically clumsy feeling MMO before, and I've played a good few. The whole modern day setting is pretty cool, but superficial elements can never make up for poor gameplay. A real stinker of a game. I wouldn't play it if it was free to play (which it will be in a year no doubt), but then a subscription and a cash shop? Funcom just put the "FU" into "fun".

Captcha: Poetic Justice

kortin:

Jaden Kazega:
You think that's bad?

I've had people tell me things along the lines of, "But Guild Wars 2 is free to play!! How good could it be?", as a kind of justification for their knee-jerk behavior. Apparently, an MMO (to some) needs to have a monthly subscription, or else it 'doesn't count.'

How does that work? lol

No idea. I know it's mostly just fanboyishness, but whenever a game such as this is praised as much as it is, I just can't see where it's coming from. I didn't expect a lot from the game, either. The story had intrigued me to begin with (because Templar and Illuminati, what's there to not intrigue?), but as I learned more about it, I found myself getting even more bored.

Well, believe it or not, I am still a little intrigued by it, but the fact it has a monthly subscription AND a micro-transaction store just kinda doesn't sit right with me. Plenty of MMO's have worked with just a monthly subscription, although I have noticed a trend where this model is starting to lose it's popularity (look at TOR). Several MMO's have worked as pure FtP with only a micro-transaction store, ala Perfect World, Guild Wars (the first one), and I'm fairly sure Guild Wars 2 will be very popular too.

Why Funcom has both models, as said, somethin' about it just kinda bugs me....

And here i thought that it was war that never changes...

Jaden Kazega:
Well, believe it or not, I am still a little intrigued by it, but the fact it has a monthly subscription AND a micro-transaction store just kinda doesn't sit right with me. Plenty of MMO's worked with just a monthly subscription, although I have noticed a trend where this model is starting to lose it's popularity (look at TOR). Several MMO's have worked as pure FtP with only a micro-transaction store, ala Perfect World, Guild Wars (the first one), and I'm fairly sure Guild Wars 2 will be very popular too.

Why Funcom has both models, as said, somethin' about it just kinda bugs me....

They won't even partially get my business for such a model. I did not play The Old Republic for the very reason that it had a subscription based model. These people are a double whammy when trying to go for both a sub fee AND the micro-transactions. You can have one or the other. You cannot have both. Having both is a serious sign of complete and total greed. Especially at the scale they have their store.

Micro-transaction stores are entirely what fuels the Free-to-play market. Tribes Ascend relies entirely on micro-transactions, PlanetSide 2 will rely entirely on micro-transactions, so these people need to decide between a free to play model and a subscription model.

As to why they might have both, I think this is also their insecurity in their game bleeding through. They are incredibly worried that they won't be able to make the money back, which does NOT bode well for the game in the slightest. Whenever the devs (or publishers) think it's required, then those could easily be warning signs for another Tortanic incident.

Ryotknife:
And here i thought that it was war that never changes...

I was waiting for this.

/highfive

kortin:
They won't even partially get my business for such a model. I did not play The Old Republic for the very reason that it had a subscription based model. These people are a double whammy when trying to go for both a sub fee AND the micro-transactions. You can have one or the other. You cannot have both. Having both is a serious sign of complete and total greed. Especially at the scale they have their store.

Micro-transaction stores are entirely what fuels the Free-to-play market. Tribes Ascend relies entirely on micro-transactions, PlanetSide 2 will rely entirely on micro-transactions, so these people need to decide between a free to play model and a subscription model.

As to why they might have both, I think this is also their insecurity in their game bleeding through. They are incredibly worried that they won't be able to make the money back, which does NOT bode well for the game in the slightest. Whenever the devs (or publishers) think it's required, then those could easily be warning signs for another Tortanic incident.

Pretty much all of my concerns/thoughts rolled up into one post, right there. I mean, granted, I'll admit I'm inherently biased towards Guild Wars 2, but then I've also been in the beta and know how it plays, whereas with TSW I'm not. If they changed their model (preferably to FtP with MT's), then I'd give it a shot. Until then, I'll keep an eye on it, but it'll be passive 'checkups' at best.

Metalhandkerchief:
*snip*

Pleas don't call me irrational and then give me this "memo" as if you were talking down to me, while it has nothing to do with my post at all.

Obviously the items don't have stats, thus why I used the term "vanity", meaning "for show".

The issue stands that a subscription based game has a cash shop at all. It's still withholding content if it's available to anyone with money, regardless if you can earn it in-game. Kind of like how everyone gets so upset about bioware's multiplayer shop.

If anything, the fact that the shop items can be earned in game AND bought devalues any sense of accomplishment or fortune the items would have had if they'd been earned rather than bought The WoW community raged when blizzard was selling unique pets and mounts. Imagine how enraged they'd be if Blizzard decided to sell the dragon mounts you can earn for beating raid bosses.

If it was unique items unavailable in the game itself I might be somewhat upset. But if you can earn it in game, it really doesn't bother me. Although, I'll never understand why someone would pay for something you'll earn through playing the game anyway.

bluepotatosack:
If it was unique items unavailable in the game itself I might be somewhat upset. But if you can earn it in game, it really doesn't bother me. Although, I'll never understand why someone would pay for something you'll earn through playing the game anyway.

Well, this is a whole other can of bees in itself, and one we can open for only a moment. Basically, it's the same reason people will buy items, buy gold/online currency, why gold farmers are a problem, and even why people may simply buy entire characters for the game they're playing.

Oh, I can more understand the motivation for buying characters/gold/items of that nature, even though I think it sort of defeats the purpose of the game. But for items that are strictly cosmetic? Not so much.

Man, I was really hyped up for this game; love all that Lovecraftian, conspiracy theory stuff. I hope it isn't as bad as you all seem to think it will be.

MMORPG's will not change until WoW sinks.

MMO's, however, easily change...just look at planetside 2

WoW Killer:
I was looking forward to it till I played the beta. It's even worse than Conan. I've never played such a mechanically clumsy feeling MMO before

You are a liar and a fraud. You have not spent a second in The Secret World and your post proves this. That, or the only other MMO you've ever played is Tabula Rasa.

Alhazred:
Man, I was really hyped up for this game; love all that Lovecraftian, conspiracy theory stuff. I hope it isn't as bad as you all seem to think it will be.

They are just jelly that a non-mainstream MMO is coming up on the blindside to steal all of Guild Wars 2's sales on account of it's 4x as much content and general higher quality.

Hrm... MMO doing something different.

And seeing a char that sort of smacks heavily of Gollum.

MMOs ripping off Tolkien. Yeah nothing new.

It looks intruiging, but really MMOs in general are such a clusterfuck dying for some sort of meaningful innovation that I cant get behind them any more.

They have killed off any sense of wonder or awe because everything is so copy pastad
They have killed off any sense of adventure because theres no true exploring any more
They have killed off any sense of drama because the "story" is being forced by the designers instead of being crafted by the players.
They have killed off any sense of Char development by player enforced builds and distilling gameplay down to its lowest common denominators.

It would take a wildy deviated MMO to even remotely spark my interest at this point, and in this current market, thats not going to happen any time soon.

Ripping off Tolkien? Noooo. Comparing that infected sailor to Gollum is a bit of a stretch.

This has much more influence from Lovecraft. It's a very far cry from any sort of high fantasy.

They do reward exploration in this game. For some missions they don't even give you a waypoint on your map and you have to figure out what to do for yourself.

Most MMO's will continue to have a linear plot, can't really debate that one.

I think the character development in this game is extraordinary. You can mix and match any skills you want so I don't see player enforced builds becoming much of a problem.

Metalhandkerchief:

WoW Killer:
I was looking forward to it till I played the beta. It's even worse than Conan. I've never played such a mechanically clumsy feeling MMO before

You are a liar and a fraud. You have not spent a second in The Secret World and your post proves this. That, or the only other MMO you've ever played is Tabula Rasa.

Alhazred:
Man, I was really hyped up for this game; love all that Lovecraftian, conspiracy theory stuff. I hope it isn't as bad as you all seem to think it will be.

They are just jelly that a non-mainstream MMO is coming up on the blindside to steal all of Guild Wars 2's sales on account of it's 4x as much content and general higher quality.

Of course. If someone doesn't like it, they HAVE to be jealous and white knighting their choice of game. Great reasoning there bro. You're quite obviously just a fanboy and therefore anything you say should be taken with a grain of salt.

bluepotatosack:
Ripping off Tolkien? Noooo. Comparing that infected sailor to Gollum is a bit of a stretch.

This has much more influence from Lovecraft. It's a very far cry from any sort of high fantasy.

They do reward exploration in this game. For some missions they don't even give you a waypoint on your map and you have to figure out what to do for yourself.

Most MMO's will continue to have a linear plot, can't really debate that one.

I think the character development in this game is extraordinary. You can mix and match any skills you want so I don't see player enforced builds becoming much of a problem.

The lovecrafting references in the game are boundless and apparent. I compare it to gollum for its clearly hated obsession with that "blinding light"

On the rewarding exploration... I find it humorous to suggest not having a waypoint on a map sometimes is exploring, considering I come from a background where there was no such thing as a map. And exploring is not just physical locations, it can be in depth lore and trying to solve riddles of ancient prophecies. It simply does not exist anymore in MMOs, and I cant see the secret world being very sucessful in rekindling that. They might try, but theres too much pressure for MMOs to succeed, and because of that, it forces a lot of crap dynamics from WoW and its clones into the mix. Granted this MMO has tried to veer off that course, but you only get so far.

I do have hope for it... but previous MMO letdown makes me more than a little gunshy.

viranimus:

bluepotatosack:
Ripping off Tolkien? Noooo. Comparing that infected sailor to Gollum is a bit of a stretch.

This has much more influence from Lovecraft. It's a very far cry from any sort of high fantasy.

They do reward exploration in this game. For some missions they don't even give you a waypoint on your map and you have to figure out what to do for yourself.

Most MMO's will continue to have a linear plot, can't really debate that one.

I think the character development in this game is extraordinary. You can mix and match any skills you want so I don't see player enforced builds becoming much of a problem.

The lovecrafting references in the game are boundless and apparent. I compare it to gollum for its clearly hated obsession with that "blinding light"

On the rewarding exploration... I find it humorous to suggest not having a waypoint on a map sometimes is exploring, considering I come from a background where there was no such thing as a map. And exploring is not just physical locations, it can be in depth lore and trying to solve riddles of ancient prophecies. It simply does not exist anymore in MMOs, and I cant see the secret world being very sucessful in rekindling that. They might try, but theres too much pressure for MMOs to succeed, and because of that, it forces a lot of crap dynamics from WoW and its clones into the mix. Granted this MMO has tried to veer off that course, but you only get so far.

I do have hope for it... but previous MMO letdown makes me more than a little gunshy.

Now I'm curious, do you have a background in playing MUD's? Some of what you describe reminds of some of what I came across in Dragonrealms.

bluepotatosack:

Now I'm curious, do you have a background in playing MUD's? Some of what you describe reminds of some of what I came across in Dragonrealms.

Not so much MUDS but more to the extremely early days of MMOs like Meridian 59, UO, EQ, DAoC which were basically Graphical MUDs.

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