A response to some arguments in anita sarkeesians interview.

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Well, as far as Assassin's creed goes, in 1 Lucy was a scientist who was way more competent than Desmond, the main character. Desmond snoops around at night and she removes the security camera videos of it, and she's an undercover assassin which must be a really tough job.

And then suddenly in 2 she's just the boobs who moves the story forward. So while I don't wholeheartedly agree with either of these folks, I do think there's something sexist, or at least something stupid, going on in AC.

Trilligan:

rbstewart7263:
[quote="Kahunaburger" post="9.380834.14982419"][quote="Cheesepower5" post="9.380834.14982403"][quote="Kahunaburger" post="9.380834.14982096"][quote="Cheesepower5" post="9.380834.14981441"][quote="Kahunaburger" post="9.380834.14980519"][quote="Nimzabaat" post="9.380834.14980495"]To me, sexism is like racism, it goes away if you stop talking about it.

Similarly, to relate to Ms. Sarkeesian's efforts - it is not enough to simply stop discussing gender, and to pretend the issue doesn't exist. Whether or not she makes mountains of molehills, or focuses on minutia instead of the larger scope, she is trying to discuss ways in which women are represented - and misrepresented. Whether you agree with her or not, the conversation she is trying to have is an important one, because we are not yet even remotely close to having a society where we don't have to worry about gender - where this issue is no longer important enough to talk about.

Fair enough though this depends on how you view such issues. In freemans example he seems to be of the opinion that racial supremacy in its societal form is largly done with. Racism being like a scab that would heal if you would just quit picking at it for example. I for one agree with this any true supremacy that exists in our world is no matter of race sex or color.

Microsoft and walmart dont care who fills there coffers whether they be all of the same color or as colorful as sesame street. long as there filled and they exploit without impunity. the fact that there white id argue is more in line with past social values than current.

as to the matter of sexism and whether its worth discussing?? well that depends; im largely of the opinion that most developers come from a place where such boundaries exist only as a historical pretext not even within there own vocabulary.

As to gamers being rude on halo and such well; people have been clammed up for years not allowed to say this joke or do this thing so like a boiling pot it naturally has come to such a mass extreme. So to disallow such expression however vile seems to make it worse not better.

So in essence in both examples ignoring what few bigots and idiots there are left leads to a higher growth in society and our industry.

As to the characters in games themselves well your wallet speaks louder than your mouth can to these folks.

if youl look at the sales of games like half life 2 or mirrors edge or bayonetta(Yes I think its sex outlook is positive) The more alex vances and faiths there are the more people buy so really the industry grows more organically this way. Yes there will still be a market for male power fantasys but leave those be if you must and only buy the games you feel are true to you and when you do that the more of those youl see.

Though to an extent the voices of gamers should never be truly silent though if we keep nagging and holding our developers to every nagging detail they wont be able to move this way or that with there creations out of blind fear of appearing sexist or racist. One should be free to do as they will with expression and the truth of it will be told in the sales,popularity,etc.

In how it touches you.

rbstewart7263:

[snip]

You do have valid points. I might quibble about Bayonetta - but then, as someone pointed out, Bayonetta actually passes the Bechdel Test, so there's that.

You may have a case that racism and sexism are no longer societal norms. We have made a great deal of progress - but, I will say that there is always room for improvement. And, honestly, since they are no longer as widespread as they once were, does that not make the focus on entertainment more justifiable? I mean, we fixed the big stuff, right, so why not work on the little stuff now?

Of course, that's assuming that the big stuff is fixed, which is a generous assumption. There is always room for improvement.

I think your views of developers may be a little idealistic. For instance, I recently read this article, where Brandon Sheffield talks (among many other relevant things) about introducing Mariel Cartwright, lead animator of Skullgirls, to people at an industry event and having one of them automatically assume she was in PR, not actually working on the game.

I mentioned elsewhere that the Halo trolls, like the internet trolls, are in large part vile and abrasive because they get off on getting away with it, hiding behind anonymity. But that is no excuse to tolerate them. Nor is their dwindling number an excuse. One does not tolerate a tumor just because it is small; one removes it because it's cancerous.

Ignoring the trolls who are whoring themselves for attention may well stop them - but that does nothing to address the attitudes that first instilled the racist or sexist thinking in their tiny brains. That moronic 'sammich' joke may be so puerile and insipid that is benign, but it carries with it a long, long history of gender bias that needs to be educated out of our collective memory. Because it is that kind of thinking that drives people to launch the kind of horrific assault Ms. Sarkeesian faced for wanting to voice her opinion.

Idiots and bigots may be an ever dwindling minority, but they are a dangerous minority, and one whose presence we must address. And I agree, silencing them is probably not the answer. Free speech is our First right for a reason.

The key is, and will always be, education. Education does wonders for curing idiocy. And education is primarily discussion.

As to voting with the dollar - 100% with you on that one. But, here's the thing - Alyx Vance and Faith and Jade and all those other positive, non-sexualized images do sell, but they are still somehow tremendously rare. Whereas we get Refrigerator-Spacemarine's Chestwall Adventure and Copypasta Shooter numbers 8, 9, and 10 released year after year after year. The industry is growing complacent with selling whatever did well last season. But that is drifting off topic again.

EDIT: Also, on 'Nagging': that is such a loaded word. And wrong for this discussion. We are exchanging ideas in hopes of elucidating an important issue. Nobody - not even Ms. Sarkeesian - is nagging. Don't waste time arguing that point - you don't agree with her, fine, but by definition she's not nagging, nor is she whining or bitching. She is making her case, either well or poorly, using good examples or bad, and she has as much right to do that without derision as you or anyone else.

As an aside, interesting to note that 'Nagging' is a complaint traditionally leveled against women who speak out against men in domestic relationships.

Trilligan:

rbstewart7263:

[snip]

You do have valid points. I might quibble about Bayonetta - but then, as someone pointed out, Bayonetta actually passes the Bechdel Test, so there's that.

You may have a case that racism and sexism are no longer societal norms. We have made a great deal of progress - but, I will say that there is always room for improvement. And, honestly, since they are no longer as widespread as they once were, does that not make the focus on entertainment more justifiable? I mean, we fixed the big stuff, right, so why not work on the little stuff now?

Of course, that's assuming that the big stuff is fixed, which is a generous assumption. There is always room for improvement.

I think your views of developers may be a little idealistic. For instance, I recently read this article, where Brandon Sheffield talks (among many other relevant things) about introducing Mariel Cartwright, lead animator of Skullgirls, to people at an industry event and having one of them automatically assume she was in PR, not actually working on the game.

I mentioned elsewhere that the Halo trolls, like the internet trolls, are in large part vile and abrasive because they get off on getting away with it, hiding behind anonymity. But that is no excuse to tolerate them. Nor is their dwindling number an excuse. One does not tolerate a tumor just because it is small; one removes it because it's cancerous.

Ignoring the trolls who are whoring themselves for attention may well stop them - but that does nothing to address the attitudes that first instilled the racist or sexist thinking in their tiny brains. That moronic 'sammich' joke may be so puerile and insipid that is benign, but it carries with it a long, long history of gender bias that needs to be educated out of our collective memory. Because it is that kind of thinking that drives people to launch the kind of horrific assault Ms. Sarkeesian faced for wanting to voice her opinion.

Idiots and bigots may be an ever dwindling minority, but they are a dangerous minority, and one whose presence we must address. And I agree, silencing them is probably not the answer. Free speech is our First right for a reason.

The key is, and will always be, education. Education does wonders for curing idiocy. And education is primarily discussion.

As to voting with the dollar - 100% with you on that one. But, here's the thing - Alyx Vance and Faith and Jade and all those other positive, non-sexualized images do sell, but they are still somehow tremendously rare. Whereas we get Refrigerator-Spacemarine's Chestwall Adventure and Copypasta Shooter numbers 8, 9, and 10 released year after year after year. The industry is growing complacent with selling whatever did well last season. But that is drifting off topic again.

EDIT: Also, on 'Nagging': that is such a loaded word. And wrong for this discussion. We are exchanging ideas in hopes of elucidating an important issue. Nobody - not even Ms. Sarkeesian - is nagging. Don't waste time arguing that point - you don't agree with her, fine, but by definition she's not nagging, nor is she whining or bitching. She is making her case, either well or poorly, using good examples or bad, and she has as much right to do that without derision as you or anyone else.

As an aside, interesting to note that 'Nagging' is a complaint traditionally leveled against women who speak out against men in domestic relationships.

Honestly, complacency is in the individual who is willing to let others experience sufferance or adversity so that he does not have to act.

"Ugh, I could start discussing sexism as it exists in the modern world and how we as a society should properly address it, but I think it's best to just ignore it until it goes away..."

Saying "Just ignore it until it goes away." Has got to be the most naive and childish way of approaching a social issue that I have ever heard.

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:

Uh, what? No. He explained why it's OK for the "Gravity Rush" character to wear high-high heels, thanks to the game's fiction. (Super powers and whatnot) And the fact that she just likes wearing high-heels. You know it's not sexist for a woman to dress sexily if she just likes to dress that way, right? Wouldn't it be MORE sexist if all female characters had to cover up to be considered legitimate?

I wouldn't even have noticed her wearing high heels if nobody pointed it out. I was paying more attention to the gameplay than details on her clothing. I don't really like her default costume anyways and switched it at the first possible chance.

wintercoat:

ProtoChimp:

Vrex360:

Well, it was all just her personal opinion but both of her videos on the Hunger games I found to be very insightful(they convinced me to actually read the book for one thing). I also really liked her more recent video on the Bechdel Test, the one about True Grit and Mattie Ross was quite good and as I've said before I really liked the whole 'tropes versus women' series. She also did a very good video on unpleasant stereotypes against men in alchohol advertisments and I liked her arguments about 'uber Ironic sexism'. Finally quite liked, for the most part anyway, her Lego advertisements.

Like I said it's a hit and miss for me, her earlier ones were kind of sensationalist possibly because they were so short so she had to hammer in a point really fast, later on she could put more detail into them and comes across as a lot calmer. Low points for me are the ones about Iphone games (one comment goes too far and of course it's a little off topic) and the one about Christmas songs I thought was reaching a bit (though Baby it's cold outside is still just kinda fucked up if you ask me). I also think she could have talked a bit more about Suckerpunch, I agree that the movie is kind of dripping in sexism but I felt it needed more elaboration.

But hey, to each their own. I've been an avid follower for a while and while it is true I don't always agree with Sarkeesian I'm also always eager to listen to what she has to say. I wonder if she'll make a rebuttal to this. Probably not but all the same I stand by my original point, attaching 'free will' to a character that can't have free will is silly.

P.S going to bed now and I'm on holiday so is it okay if any more conversation gets put away for a while?

Sorry whats fucked up about "baby its cold outside?"

Capcha: get over it... um... er.... I... dont... know how to react...

Well, the song was written as a 'wolf' attempting to entice a 'mouse' into his den, for what reasons can only be guessed at.

There's also the line "Say, what's in this drink?" that the 'mouse' says, that some people attempt to prop up as a sign that it's about date-rape, though considering the time period the song was originally written in, the probability of that is rather low. The 'mouse' is most likely hinting at being given an alcoholic drink when previously the mouse was drinking non-alcoholic beverages.

Then there's the 'wolf' shooting down the 'mouse's' constant declarations to the effect of 'no', attempting to coerce the mouse into staying. Some people view it as the mouse only putting up a token resistance, while actually wanting to stay, while others view it as the mouse earnestly wanting to leave, but being stopped by the wolf.

... Holy Shit. I remember a man named Qutb from Egypt came over to America to teach, and among other things about the american way that disgusted him he saw an american prom and saw a pastor sing that song while the teens danced supposedly inappropriately. Qutb is now regarded as some as a sort of Godfather of Al Quada.

Okay that had nothing to do with anything and was a little inaccurate but whatever I'm going off GCSE history here, take it with mountain of salt.

rbstewart7263:

Kahunaburger:

Cheesepower5:
I guess we don't have any real predators, so we have time for this shit.

That's a good way to put it. The folks who say stuff like "racism is a solved problem" and "can we stop talking about sexism?" tend to be pretty privileged, after all.

I challenge your arguement with a statement from morgan freeman.

Comments on race

Freeman has publicly criticized the celebration of Black History Month and does not participate in any related events, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."[40] He says the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it, and he notes that there is no "white history month."[41] Freeman once said on an interview with 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace, "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."[40] Freeman supported the defeated proposal to change the Mississippi state flag, which contains the Confederate battle flag.[42][43

Perhaps youd like to eat your own words??

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on how the opinion of a Hollywood actor has any bearing on this discussion?

to me it doesnt matter if i agree or disagree with her premise. im glad shes making it, im glad shes bringing these issues to light. the issue im talking about is that there is rampant discrimination with gamers and a good chunk of gamers need to be confronted so they can learn to say "i dont agree with you and i think its a waste of money but you still have the right to make something i dont agree with" rather than raging and threatening her with rape and murder.

no one is going to take games and gamers seriously until they stop acting like freaking 12 yo's who have had their toys taken away.

none of us have seen her final video and even if i disagree with 99.99% of what she says she still could make a valid point about something. even bad things can have good points... unless its an amx40 tank from world of tanks, thats just a big steaming pile of crap, oh and anchovies.. anchovies are evil as well with no redeeming qualities

I thought every accepted already that Anita was just taking a few rubes for a ride to get their cash. Eh I guess a sucker is born every minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExCdOImmVA

I find the video posted here to be very educational and informational, whilst not being misogynistic.

Kahunaburger:

rbstewart7263:

I challenge your arguement with a statement from morgan freeman.

Comments on race

Freeman has publicly criticized the celebration of Black History Month and does not participate in any related events, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."[40] He says the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it, and he notes that there is no "white history month."[41] Freeman once said on an interview with 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace, "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."[40] Freeman supported the defeated proposal to change the Mississippi state flag, which contains the Confederate battle flag.[42][43

Perhaps youd like to eat your own words??

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on how the opinion of a Hollywood actor has any bearing on this discussion?

Not to mention how Morgan Freeman is virtually oozing privilege anyway, being a wealthy and relatively light-skinned man of colour who works within the comfort zone of a predominantly white social sphere.

Ask a middle-to-lower class person of colour whether they think Freeman's delusional assessment is correct, and I can guarantee you'll hear a very different account of the problem.

Freeman is no authority on racism. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.
And like racism, sexism will persist for as long as people insist on being dismissive of the endemic issues which perpetuate it.

Kahunaburger:
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on how the opinion of a Hollywood actor has any bearing on this discussion?

I'm reminded of a quote from Brad Pitt. A reporter asked him what he thought about the Tibetan Freedom concert and the push to liberate the country from China. He replied:

"Who cares what I think about Tibet? I'm an actor. That means I'm a grown man who likes to wear makeup."

I think that about sums up my thoughts on people who try to quote Hollywood celebrities as if that were a valid counterargument.

My response to kahuna burger.

How does Freemans statement pertain? Fair question but I think you already know the answer. You stated that ignoring a perceived difference of power within the confines of discrimination was cowardly, I gave you an example of some who would see it differently including freeman who grew up in my home state of mississippi.

Ive had plenty of black friends(before someone calls me barbaric thats what everyone black or white prefers here they do not go crying "bla...black man...") here and there opinions on the matter differed depending on what they were taught. Ive had some friends so open minded and undeterred by societies sensitivities that we could spout racist jokes at each other and this happened on multiple occasions with four of my black friends.

It is often said that friends insult each other without actually meaning it and I agree I often felt the ability to do so buried that hatchet and made us both friends instead of " Hes my white friend, Hes my black friend" which is what I had always wanted something honest and unafraid.

This is not for everyone I dont expect this kind of mind set from everyone especially older black people.

Ive also had the opposite side of that coin. A guy I worked with and became friends with was VERY sensitive and also a bit paranoid at times to the point where even something minor as a mere scheduling change was racism and he would say ill things about our boss. Our boss died and he would come to find out that our boss spoke well of my friend, that he was a good and reliable man at covering night shift and he felt guilty that he had made such a base assumption. A good guy all told ive had many an intelligent debate with him.

My response to Liquid Grape.

LiquidGrape:
[quote="Kahunaburger" post="9.380834.14984246"][quote="rbstewart7263" post="9.380834.14983224"]

Not to mention how Morgan Freeman is virtually oozing privilege anyway, being a wealthy and relatively light-skinned man of colour who works within the comfort zone of a predominantly white social sphere.

Ask a middle-to-lower class person of colour whether they think Freeman's delusional assessment is correct, and I can guarantee you'll hear a very different account of the problem.

Freeman is no authority on racism. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.
And like racism, sexism will persist for as long as people insist on being dismissive of the endemic issues which perpetuate it.

Like I stated earlier Freeman lived in mississippi growing up around the late 50s early 60s. A violent racist as hell time for my state and Im not afraid to call mississippi out on that.

So the idea that Freeman is privileged then or now is frankly absurd what he got was through his own efforts and skills.

And If I did ask a "Person of colour"(such a distant way to put it) Well it would differ from one to the next the idea that america as a society is oozing with people sitting at corporate headquarters asking each other "So how can we keep the black man down" Is actually more prevalent in privileged white quarters than with black people in general.

No most black people see it as a gap of rich and poor all around you only need to see a trailer park once to see that those old lines; Those old battles do not pertain anymore. Here where I live we have alot of furniture factories and when you go in there there are black white and brown all around and not a one looks a bit privileged. We all looked like shit quite frankly.

Sidenote:
Im proud of this fact when I worked picking sweet potato's in Verona I was the only white guy there!lmao The farmer told we had a job for three months but it was only for three days; enough time for him to get more people from mexico here to work cheap.

Trilligan:

rbstewart7263:

[snip]

Snip

.

Now heres someone I like ok.

Fair enough Ill argue indeed that we do need to keep talking about in general the issues we have with our games So that when a game doesnt sell people out there know theres a market to fill.

In the case of women in games theres a huge market to fill. But if we are too on the case of developers where gonna stifle there development. I say let Ea make sexist bingo 9 or whatever but also let them make beyond good and evil 2(On a side note fuck them for what there doing with that franchise dangling it over the fans heads like slop over hungry pigs) I feel we need both.

Ive heard arguements against even such games as legend of zelda. that it and those who play it promote sexist norms(man saves female). This is not simply not true instead of the argument to rid ourselves of such things(I know it wont happen but for posterity's sake) We cater to both. I know of plenty of women who share the same white knight complex and hero mindset that I do. Id argue that catering to both is positive while the extreme "take this away we want something else" mentality is negative.

So killing link bad.

His female counterpart(who should look like lindsey stirling and play violin..look it up) Totally awesome.

As to the fact of big issues done small issues next. That I will finish when I get back home but for the record trilligan its been fun your one of the better debaters ive found on the escapist.

More time now.

Yes but small issues should be treated as such. Making mountains out of molehills silences your own opinion. The ole boy who cried wolf becomes the girl who cried sexist. If her examples are not correct and concise the game industry will close there ears and nothing will get done. her brand of feminism is a tad extreme. Ive watched her videos shel even go after kill bill???

So Yeah it would seem we are disagreeing to agree?:) I think we should talk about it but I feel we need someone better on her side of the argument. If the game industry frankly gets tired of those who cant be pleased than those who can; those who have real and not imagined problems with the lack of variety wont be heard and I personally have a stake in this.

To elaborate when you become a representative of a cause like sarkeesian its not enough to critique media. Shes really good at telling the industry what it does wrong. Ive yet to hear her advice on what we can do right.

rbstewart7263:

Ive had plenty of black friends

Welp, I think that shuts down the discussion. The fact that you know people of other races (and apparently think that's unusual enough to warrant a comment) makes you both qualified to speak to whether people still experience racism and to which millionaire you have determined has the right to speak for the entire black community (as if there's anyone who can do that.)

rbstewart7263:
http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml

I thought this was lo great and wanted to post it.
long story short: destructoid interviews sarkeesian. One of the writers then writes a response.

An intelligent discussion finally amongst all the sillyness here lately. These things matter to me so im relieved to say the least.

captcha broken heart.

dont i know it. lol

Omg an actual writer who actually knows that Anita doesn't do any actual research and proves it by actually researching the games and their history? Color me shocked, isn't that what a journalist is meant to do?

Seriously the whole Anita crap has been so biased and one sided that it was too easy for the "journalists" or "news room editors" to just report on the attack of the mindless instead of the dissent of the intelligent. There is a reason groups like the Game station ignored this outright cause people know that either her or the most devoted of fans the second the video was uploaded(literally seconds) was spammed on 4chan. Also her actual research on videos are so poor that actually runs contrary to the point of the actual video games she critiques.

EDIT:Honestly the biggest criticism is that she is brands herself as a pop-culture critic but only watches or plays the game. She doesn't actually read the instruction booklet or research the background story or narrative of the game. Cause fighting games which get the most flak for being "sexist" actually have some of the most in-depth conspiracy narratives you will ever find and backstory for each of their characters that bind them to the plot.

EDIT 2: I am also glad that the writer here actually only used games that have existed during this console generation. If there is anything that gets crap is that all the complaints come from previous console generations and try and apply that as evidence for today. To which is sad cause even during the PS2 console generation aside from some old franchises there has been a lot more equality in video games.

lmao kahuna your assuming now thats not at all what I meant by that!:D lmao

I cannot speak for everyone just the people I know who have a variety of opinons. the consensus of one person on here was that people of colour as they put it would not dare think in such a way.

I gave examples of not only thinking "that way" and examples of other ways of thinking.

At Tenmar:

They do which is why im so passionate about this I want more variety in videogames. I see her position and opinion.highly lauded as it is; stifling to variety and creativity both for male and female representation.

I've remained uncaring about this whole issues...

Girls are made like that in games because the main audience is made of men.

-Not enough women play video games to be relevant . ESPECIALLY the kind of games that portray sexy women. (Even if that will be a circular argument, publishers don't care.

-The amount of women they'd get for making females "normal" is LESS than the amount of men they'd get putting a stripper on the cover. Money's the same coming from both sources, and it's quantity that matters for a publisher

-Video games are judged solely by how popular (how much they sell, I mean) they are. There are countless good games that failed due to poor sales. What gets sold gets made most of the time, and if that bothers you, tough.....

-Any woman that comes out and says: "Now, I love Soul Calibur, but I hate how girls are portrayed" is making a moot point. You loved the game? So you bought it? Spent money on it? Then we got your purchase along with the guys that like big boobs. Even better.

-Bitching on the internet will never ,ever, ever help. Want to make a point? Write to the publisher : "I would really want to play your game, but the way you design the women prevents me". Don't buy it, then bitch about it, and don't refuse to buy it without a word. Say "I'd buy it if it weren't for this".

-Capitalism works. People get what they want to put money on, and if that bothers you, vote with your wallet, don't go around telling people what they should want, or what they shouldn't get. If some people want sexy video games females, and are willing to pay money, and women are indifferent on that, let them. Their choice.

At the end of the day, a 2% drop in a publisher's yearly income will matter more than a billion of these pointless threads. Want to make a difference? Put your money where your mouth is. Are you a woman that REALLY can't enjoy a game due to something like that? Write to the publisher, and TELL him that he lost a purchase. Otherwise, NOBODY CARES! The people that play Soul Calibur? Don't care! The people that play Blood Rayne? Don't care!

P.S. "Why are there so many ugly men in video games, yet not a single unattractive female?"

Cause in society, women are judged and valued for their looks, and men by their attitude and strong, dominant character. Most if not all male videogame protagonists are men that do great things, rise to the challenge and display confident personalities, the main traits that women like in men. The reverse , would naturally have to hold true...

My biggest reservation about these videos is that I am not sure that she fully grasps video games as a media and is therefore likely to miss the important elements of female portrayal in them by looking at them only through a feminist lens. The article the OP posted has some good examples of what I am worried about in pointing out that supporting female characters (like Sforza, like Lucy, etc.) aren't being fully understood in their context as supporting characters before being examined as female characters. The supporting characters - male or female - are generally never given as much attention as the protagonist group or the player-character. That is something that must be accounted for before discussing how they are being portrayed in a gender specific way. This comes up in the Bastion example - he's right saying the game is minimalist and therefore it is not even-handed to point out that Zia isn't given a fully fleshed description and position in the game and say that is because she is female - it's because she isn't the player-character first and foremost.

There is a fruitful discussion to be had about why there aren't as many female (and I mean female-only choice, not dual choice gender like Shepard or Hawke or the Warden or the Fallout protagonists) player-characters as male player-characters. There is a discussion to be had about the consistency with which female support characters assume roles of healers, tactical support, or other semi-passive forms of assistance to the protagonist at greater frequency than male support characters who tend to play more aggressive and active support roles. There are plenty of things that can be discussed about gender in video games that would be fruitful for the industry as well as the community to examine, understand, and possibly grow from.

What I have seen so far though has been somewhat indicating that those are not going to be the major centers of discussion for her videos and that instead there is going to be a tally of what female characters are doing in comparison to male characters without accounting for the hierarchy of characters in general in games and without considering how the narratives of different types of games unfolds. RPGs treat characters very differently than an RTS game or a plat former does - is this going to be accounted for? I am not seeing that as yet, and that is disappointing.

What it comes down to for me is that - if someone doesn't take the whole picture into account and doesn't take the time to understand the dynamic of the media and how it functions into account, then they can't assess and accurate picture of what the inadequacies of the assignment of genders to roles within that system is - and what will result is something that won't have much value to the community or the industry, but will instead merely stir up confusion and controversy in an unproductive way.

Apart from a few salient points on Bastion and Assassin's Creed, the article seems to rely pretty heavily on ad-hoc reasoning and special pleading.

What both said about Gravity Rush is entirely silly-Sarkeesian's wrong because the armour comment is unfounded, but Carter tries to make an argument about dressing up which is entirely moronic. If I, as a straight male, who, like many of us, finds lesbians attractive, write a story about two lesbians, who happen to be incredibly hot, and incredibly promiscuous and explicit, I can't justify it as the character's decisions: They're fiction, I'm responsible for how I wrote them. And I wrote them as exploitative fantasy material. It's fine for this to exist, but surely there's a point where we acknowledge that the majority of characters can't be this.

On the subject of Rayman, arguing that the Nymphs created Rayman doesn't give them any character, or anything to do with agency or having a role. Especially when after they're typically rescued. It's an odd choice to use for criticism, to be sure, but nothing that Carter said addresses the point: The all-female, supposedly powerful Nymphs are simply there to be rescued, by and large, by Rayman. Arguing that they've got a backstory is unrelated to both the core gameplay and the claim at hand, and Carter goes on with more ad-hoc nonsense trying to justify their appearance. "I also feel like the Nymphs are very comfortable with the way they look,"
They're fictional, dumbass. It's not as negative as them being forced into a role and that exploitation being played for the gamers enjoyment (Like say, the rape part of DNF), but again, if I write a character, I'm responsible for the portrayl, and arguing for a fictional characters motive in it's portrayl is retarded.

So I guess he manages a 2/4? He points out the obvious about Assassins Creed, and also makes a fair point about Bastion (Yes, the Kid is the character we explore the thoughts of, and the greatest detail of the history. That makes all of the other characters lesser, not simply Zia. To claim otherwise would be to ignore the game for the point that Sarkeesian wants to make, as opposed to the representation. On the other hand, the Kid is male, in a male dominated protagonist world[Which is a criticism of the game industry in general, which can then be levelled at Bastion, rather than the other way round, which is what Sarkessian seems to be doing]. That's really the only way to come at that in my view).

He's a psuedo-intellectual, making equally shaky claims. Neither of these people really should be taken seriously. They both fail at their research extensively, and generally at justifying or defining their positions.

Of course, rational people probably realised that after he started taking concerns about the amount of money seriously.

rbstewart7263:

Kahunaburger:

Cheesepower5:
I guess we don't have any real predators, so we have time for this shit.

That's a good way to put it. The folks who say stuff like "racism is a solved problem" and "can we stop talking about sexism?" tend to be pretty privileged, after all.

I challenge your arguement with a statement from morgan freeman.

Comments on race

Freeman has publicly criticized the celebration of Black History Month and does not participate in any related events, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."[40] He says the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it, and he notes that there is no "white history month."[41] Freeman once said on an interview with 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace, "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."[40] Freeman supported the defeated proposal to change the Mississippi state flag, which contains the Confederate battle flag.[42][43

Perhaps youd like to eat your own words??

As has been pointed out, Freeman's view doesn't change anything. It's fallacious logic on every level.

More to the point: As I see it he's not saying racism is dead, or that we can be racist, or that we must ignore it. He's saying that making the demarcation between black and white in itself isn't helpful: "Black History Month" is in fact American History. White Americans and Black Americans share this history. It's not seperated, it's intertwined, and it's all important. To attempt to justify the idea of "Black History Month" just creates claims of racism from white people, and makes the problem out to be a "black" problem, rather than a human one.

Which is entirely a fair point: It's not the end of discussion, or argument, and it can't be used as such. As far as I understand his point, I agree with him. I don't see where he's saying we should ignore racism to make it go away, or how that would justify ignoring sexism to make it go away. He's arguing a specific point on a specific issue.

To be crass, I'd refer to 2 South Park episodes; "Chef Goes Nanners" and "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" which illustrate the point better than I can (I'm not claiming they're evidence, or prove a point). We don't need to acknowledge the demarcation between races, or genders, but we do need to respect them, and part of that respect is acknowledging that deciding that a demarcation between them is justification for discrimination is not respectful.

EDIT: And I must say, not only are you not a particularly good debater, or judge of the material you've presented (Chris manages a barely 2/4 success in deconstructing Anita's claims, and her claims aren't exactly brilliant to begin with). To judge others who agree with you as good simply for the purpose of some congratulationary promotion of your own ideas is just asinine. Especially with your post count. (Hint: Deliberately complimenting an exclusive segment of the replies, and ignoring the others implies an judgement. It hardly seems you're in position to level it.)

My response to looney

Lmao me an the person I complimented are to a degree are differing in terms of our degree to which we feel regarding the handling of such delicate issues. I was complimenting someone disagreeing with me. We disagree to agree in that we both want positive change we disagree on how best to go about it so no I was complimenting my rival in the discussion in all good nature.

My skills as a debater are poor indeed ill agree with you on that though. People take criticism better when its constructive so if you have any advice I may be inclined to accept it.

He disagrees w me but he's the best at expressing his disagreement to put it simply.

"Video games reinforce sexist and misogynist behavior" is the new "video games reinforce violent behavior." The sooner people realize this, the better.

However, I do want to see if 160 thousand dollars will improve her first train wreck of a video about video games.

Overall, the situation is so out of hand, it makes me wish people didn't shoot down that Kickstarter game about multiracial transgender goddesses fighting evil straight white men. At least I could laugh with the absurdity of that. But this is just embarrassing.

Jdb:

That's an... interesting... youtube video. It seems to mostly consist of a standard feminist frequency video with T.T annotations. This is supposed to sway us over to FF detractors?

Nope. Just the upcoming Tropes vs. Women in Video Games. If this video is an indication of the future, then Tropes vs. Women in Video Games will be just as poorly researched and informed, with holes that are easily seen by people who've actually played the game.

Jdb:
Nope. Just the upcoming Tropes vs. Women in Video Games. If this video is an indication of the future, then Tropes vs. Women in Video Games will be just as poorly researched and informed, with holes that are easily seen by people who've actually played the game.

Well, if that's what the annotations are meant to do, they're not doing a very good job at it. All I gathered from the video was:

A) Bayonetta is sexist. image
A.1) Bayonetta's advertising was sexist & creepy in context.
B) Some ppl apparently play Bayonetta for the lore, which is hilarious.
C) This guy doesn't actually have anything substantive to say. The video's about visuals and marketing, the annotations are about lore nitpicks.

Clear contradictions aren't substantive? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're done here.

Jdb:
Clear contradictions aren't substantive? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're done here.

None of the annotations I saw constituted a substantive response. It was basically all lore QQing. If there's one that actually substantively addresses sexism in Bayonetta in a way that would not cause an average viewer to go "ahaha no," please feel free to present it.

Kahunaburger:

Jdb:
Clear contradictions aren't substantive? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're done here.

None of the annotations I saw constituted a substantive response. It was basically all lore QQing. If there's one that actually substantively addresses sexism in Bayonetta in a way that would not cause an average viewer to go "ahaha no," please feel free to present it.

There's a difference between "Lore QQing" and complaining that "Return of the Jedi sucks because the Daleks swooped in at the end and wiped out the rebellion."

Trilligan:

Similarly, to relate to Ms. Sarkeesian's efforts - it is not enough to simply stop discussing gender, and to pretend the issue doesn't exist. Whether or not she makes mountains of molehills, or focuses on minutia instead of the larger scope, she is trying to discuss ways in which women are represented - and misrepresented. Whether you agree with her or not, the conversation she is trying to have is an important one, because we are not yet even remotely close to having a society where we don't have to worry about gender - where this issue is no longer important enough to talk about.

Feminism is going to make progress in spite of her, not because of her. She's way out of her depth and she's going to do more harm than good.

Also she has in the past encouraged her viewers to not educate themselves about the content she's talking about, because it's just too sexist and they shouldn't be subject to it. Telling people to believe your interpretation of what you're talking about and encouraging them to not go out and see for themselves is completely unacceptable.

targren:

Kahunaburger:

Jdb:
Clear contradictions aren't substantive? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're done here.

None of the annotations I saw constituted a substantive response. It was basically all lore QQing. If there's one that actually substantively addresses sexism in Bayonetta in a way that would not cause an average viewer to go "ahaha no," please feel free to present it.

There's a difference between "Lore QQing" and complaining that "Return of the Jedi sucks because the Daleks swooped in at the end and wiped out the rebellion." "this analysis of moral simplicity in Star Wars is flawed because it says Luke is 22 when he's actually 23, and because it says Palpatine is a simple villain when I think he's a complex villain T.T"

Fixed for greater accuracy. Seriously, if these annotations are supposed to make a case about substantive issues, whoever put this video up should re-work them. From an outside perspective it looks like someone making a rational argument about sexism in a video game, and someone else whining about irrelevant backstory details that nobody cares about.

Kahunaburger:

Fixed for greater accuracy. Seriously, if these annotations are supposed to make a case about substantive issues, whoever put this video up should re-work them. From an outside perspective it looks like someone making a rational argument about sexism in a video game, and someone else whining about irrelevant backstory details that nobody cares about.

Except you didn't fix anything. That whole "single mother" garbage that missed who the kid was ignored probably the biggest plot-fulcrum in the goddamn game, and not calling it out as Did Not Do the Research doesn't help anyone except the pseudo-political hack and her echo chamber.

targren:

Kahunaburger:

Fixed for greater accuracy. Seriously, if these annotations are supposed to make a case about substantive issues, whoever put this video up should re-work them. From an outside perspective it looks like someone making a rational argument about sexism in a video game, and someone else whining about irrelevant backstory details that nobody cares about.

Except you didn't fix anything. That whole "single mother" garbage that missed who the kid was ignored probably the biggest plot-fulcrum in the goddamn game, and not calling it out as Did Not Do the Research doesn't help anyone except the pseudo-political hack and her echo chamber.

Yeah, as I said, irrelevant lore nitpicks (or in this case, irrelevant semantics) re: a game where the lore is an afterthought. The video's not about Bayonetta's "plot," it's about sexism/creepyness in the game's advertising. From an outsider's perspective, the video is much more persuasive than the annotations because it actually has something interesting to say.

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