We should forgive Bioware.

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So after Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, and The Old Republic, many people have claimed that Bioware is ruined forever or that they've betrayed their fans, and so they'll never purchase a game with the Bioware name on it ever again. And I have to ask why? What's the purpose?

Bioware has a long history of releasing pretty good games. Those previously mentioned three included, whatever missteps they may have taken along the way, they were still decent titles overall.

So why is it that DA2 and ME3 have had such a controversial impact on the community that people just automatically refuse to give the time of day to something branded with "Bioware" on it anymore? In the big picture, was the ending really that important? Was it really that terrible, even after the "Extended Edition", that you'd never be able to purchase a Bioware game ever again?

Because I think it's a waste of emotion to feel so strongly about something so insignificant. Are people swearing off Pixar forever because of Cars and its sequel? What would've happened to Batman Begins if people had sworn they would never watch another Batman film ever again after Batman Forever and Batman & Robin? What would've happened to Pink Floyd if people had sworn them off forever after Syd Barrett left the band?

I'm rambling a bit now, so to summarize here:
Maybe Bioware is just moving in a direction that you don't care for anymore. Maybe something amplified how angry you got at those two games, like their reception on the internet or something. Maybe you just think Bioware is stupid for not catering to your wants and sticking rigidly to their formulaic RPG structure. Whatever it is, can't you let it go, though? Can't you take a deep breath, relax, and either say "Yeah, okay Bioware, you do what you want, but I think I've moved on from the style you're trying to reach" without spewing hatred and anger their way, or hell, be excited to see what they do when they aren't trying to confine themselves to the RPG structure? They were the people who made MDK2 and Jade Empire, after all.

EDIT: For the people who are just reading this post before posting themselves, or something, I don't mean "put your blind loyalty in Bioware again!" Blind loyalty to any developer is ridiculous. I just mean that all of the anger and bile spewed their way is equally ridiculous at this point. If you're indifferent to Bioware, then good on you. If you don't care about them but will look into any good games they might make in the future, then good on you.

I never liked them, but I don't dislike them either. If they make a good game I'll buy it (thought if they made a sequel I'd be extremely cautious of it).

Though I do find it understandable that fans are mad a company they loved abandoned them. In the past even if other games were crap you still have that one company you love that will make a decent game but if they turn to the darkside where else can you find those kinds of games for your fix?

shrekfan246:
So after Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, and The Old Republic, many people have claimed that Bioware is ruined forever or that they've betrayed their fans, and so they'll never purchase a game with the Bioware name on it ever again. And I have to ask why? What's the purpose?

Because they were not Bioware quality games, they were EA quality games. They were mediocre, passable, painfully okay. And they had many issues, not just ME3's ending, or DA2's gays.

Bioware has a long history of releasing pretty good games. Those previously mentioned three included, whatever missteps they may have taken along the way, they were still decent titles overall.

So why is it that DA2 and ME3 have had such a controversial impact on the community that people just automatically refuse to give the time of day to something branded with "Bioware" on it anymore? In the big picture, was the ending really that important? Was it really that terrible, even after the "Extended Edition", that you'd never be able to purchase a Bioware game ever again?

Bioware did a terrible mistake in story telling. They do have a long history of releasing good games, quality games, games that are memorable, told well, presented in a way we all enjoy and are interested in seeing. Those 3 are...meh. Decent is not what Bioware is known for. And Bioware doesn't seem to really care. They're doing EA type things.

Because I think it's a waste of emotion to feel so strongly about something so insignificant. Are people swearing off Pixar forever because of Cars and its sequel? What would've happened to Batman Begins if people had sworn they would never watch another Batman film ever again after Batman Forever and Batman & Robin? What would've happened to Pink Floyd if people had sworn them off forever after Syd Barrett left the band?

See, the problem is this, emotions aren't a resource to be spent up. You can't waste them. Please don't say something so silly.

Also, Cars was still a great movie, it was pixar quality, pixar style. It was what they were known for. People probably did swear off batman movies, but the difference with the movies is new directors, it would be like swearing off a game franchise, then the IP gets sold to a new developer, but you don't care. Makes no sense. Different people.

I'm rambling a bit now, so to summarize here:
Maybe Bioware is just moving in a direction that you don't care for anymore. Maybe something amplified how angry you got at those two games, like their reception on the internet or something. Maybe you just think Bioware is stupid for not catering to your wants and sticking rigidly to their formulaic RPG structure. Whatever it is, can't you let it go, though? Can't you take a deep breath, relax, and either say "Yeah, okay Bioware, you do what you want, but I think I've moved on from the style you're trying to reach" without spewing hatred and anger their way, or hell, be excited to see what they do when they aren't trying to confine themselves to the RPG structure? They were the people who made MDK2 and Jade Empire, after all.

You're right, 3 strikes isn't so bad right? I could go on about why the games are terrible compared to their previous games, but it would triple the size of this post. needless to say, as I've mentioned before, DA2 and ME3 were not Bioware, they were a stranger wearing their still bleeding face, recently peeled off of their spasming corpse, staring deep into your soul and letting out a eerie creak of a voice.

They are going a direction we don't like. That's why we hate it. They're going a very bad direction. They've taken good stories with flat characters, and made boring stories with flat characters with more romance options. We don't like it. We don't want to see Bioware go away. We do want them to stay, but as what they were, not what they are becoming.

Perhaps I'm in the minority, or the silent majority, but here's my opinion:

1) Dragon Age 2 was enjoyable. It wasn't DA:O, and those that expected it to be that were probably amongst the most disappointed. It was more action oriented than the first but I quite liked it.

2) ME3 was a great game, barring the final 5 minutes, which ruined everything. F U Bioware.

3) TOR was... eh. I got my money's worth but I only played maybe 2 months of it and had essentially completed everything out at that time and felt the storyline too weak to be bothered playing through more than once or twice.

Bioware haven't lost me as a fan, and I bet when Dragon Age 3 and the next Mass Effect title comes out, many of the loudest whiners will be first in place to buy them. It's just the nature of the intarwebs.

Fuck them and their 'emotionally engaging' cinematic experiences. The only thing they're good for anymore is unintentional comedy with all their nonsense and 'fans'. One of the main symbols of the image in RPG gaming.

image

I never stopped liking Bioware games to be honest, I enjoyed both Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3. I wouldn't say they were outstanding games in every respect, but they're still high quality games that have a lot to offer. I don't however think they were as good as their predecessors are, and for many people, if it isn't as good or better than the previous games, it is then automatically a terrible experience and then labeled a 'bad' game. This is where you see the review bombing on sites like Metacritic, someone gives the game a 0 and there rationale is 'I enjoyed the game.. right up until the end' like this one issue the game has means the entire experience is nullified. This kind of mentality is insane in my mind...

Maybe because I don't take my games as seriously as others, or maybe I am more lenient than some people are, who knows. I am still very interested when Bioware announces they are working on a new title, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I'm the type of person who likes to play rouge so I'm one of the few who found the combat in DA2 much more enjoyable than DA:O. I hear people complain that the story is a let down from the saving the world story in Origins, but I found it interesting in it's own way. DA2 is delving deeper into the society in Dragon Age and the oppression of mages taken to eleven. I also felt it was more about putting the character in moral grey positions than Origins.

I haven't played ME3 or The Old Republic (because I don't have an Xbox/ never play MMOs) and maybe if I did I would be less forgiving, but I still enjoy Bioware games. However my go-to developer, (especially for RPGs) is still Atlus c:

I'm not a Bioware fan, but I think it's fair to give up on a developer after they make three disappointing games in a row. Look at Peter Molyneux. Plenty of people don't trust him any more. Some would argue far more than his previous three games have been bad. I've personally all but given up hope Black Box will ever make a good NFS game again. Their past 3 efforts were all terrible, and the one preceding those also has a lot of haters. That's not including NFS World, but that's using assets completely taken from other games, and Black Box had help with that game too.

These developers may surprise us all and come back to make great games and regain their former glory, but for now it's fair to say they're crap.

I'll forgive them if they actually think about the ending of their next trilogy. Also I'd appreciate it if they showed more love for the PC, and thought about working with a different publisher.
The above is why I'm a bit disenchanted with Bioware at the moment.

If I disowned every company that made a crappy game and vowed to never forgive them?

I'd have to give up being a gamer because i'd quickly run out of games.

I really want to forgive Bioware. They have some extremely talented writers that can create immersion and emotional attachment with a player like few other games (or many stories for that matter). But damn, two--maybe three, I haven't played TOR--disasters in a row is pretty bad. Just one would be acceptable, but ME3's ending was a bitch slap to anyone who liked the story and characters, and DA2 was obviously a money grab.

Still, I want to go back to where I was a hardcore Bioware fan that would buy their stuff in an instant. All that it will take is for me to see some sincere effort on their part. If they take their time with DA3 and make it a kickass game that they can be proud of, I'll start calling myself a Bioware fan with pride again.

Oh, the drama!

...

It's getting a bit ridiculous folks.

For whatever it's worth:
DA2 - Ambivalent. It had a ton of undeniable issues, but I don't see why it still has people tearing their hair out and screaming about how traumatized they were.

TOR - Didn't play it, not into MMOs.

ME3 - 80% fantastic, 15% meh, 5% OMG WTF. I disliked the ending as much anyone, but the hate has gotten pretty silly. If you were to take some people's comments out of context you'd think they were talking about a serial killer's latest crimes.

Well, I pretty much just read the summary, since I reckon that that wasn't really directed at me. I still like Bioware, I never disliked them, and I never had a problem with the ending to ME3. I've never been a fan of Dragon Age, despite two attempts to play DA:O, but that's not going to make me dislike Bioware. They make good games, and when people complained, they released free DLC to help, which is more than a lot of companies would do.

Bioware, for me at least, became a average developer around ME2 came out with its gears like game play, then it kinda went downhill from there. DA2 was a rushed mess but not unplayable (except 1 mission where you have something like 20 enemy's at the same time in a fight, my laptop couldn't handle the strain).
ME3 is a shooter with barely any RPG elements, and unfortunately Bioware do not make really compelling choices from:
A)I love all living beings and i will do every thing to help them
B)I just don't care
C)SHEPARD SMASH!!!

So yeah Bioware is going downhill, they will join eventually after DA3 the developers graveyard :snif:

WHY DID YOU KILL PANDEMIC WHY!!!
I wanted Battlefront 3 :(

Captcha: top drawer.... That's where i left my sanity, thanks captcha.

I was never that big a fan of them but I enjoyed Mass effect 1 and Dragon age: Origins. After that they started moving in a direction I didn't like and their games were just meh to me.

They are also owned by EA so I can easily expect their games to have lots of **** DLC and to have been rushed. I just don't care for them now but I can easily see why people who loved them before feel so betrayed and frustrated with them.

It's not just the ME3 ending or DA2, those just sum up the problem that they moved onto a new target audience and many people are frustrated by this.

I wouldn't say Bioware is quite on death-row....yet. But they need to step up and really deliver or they might just be next on EA's increasingly large "butchers bill". Rest in peace Bullfrog.

DA:2
ME3
ToR

I hated them all, even more so because I simply LOVED the game that came previous to each one. DA, ME2 KoTOR - Each of those would almost certainly be somewhere in my top 10 of all time.

i forgive them for finally fixing the end of ME3 enough to satisfy me but yeah they are going in a different direction to the games they used to make that i liked. so bye bye bioware

I forgive Bioware.
At least they're not making crap after crap like Square Enix.

I do not "hate" Bioware, nor will I claim that I will never purchase another of their games again, despite being disappointed with Mass Effect 3, and irritated by the clearly rushed Dragon Age 2 (although it's still fairly good).

What I will not do, which I did before is take Bioware's word ever again. I will not believe their marketing, I will not believe them when they say X, Y or Z will feature prominently in the game, and I will almost certainly never pre-order a game from them again.

Why? Because they lie, they falsely advertise and they build up too much hype over things that end up insignificant. They rush out their products, they do not respect their customers enough to answer their questions or concerns maturely, instead resorting to PR, double-speak.

That said, if they create a game, it happens to look pretty good, I am hearing from various people that it's worth a shot, or from my own research I like what I see, then I will buy it.

I do not hold onto any resentment against Bioware, but I will no longer buy games "Because it's a Bioware game, they always make great games" which was actually the reason that I bought Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins in the first place.

Thick and thin. There are a few companies i'd say I liked on a level as in I'd take the fact that they made the game into consideration when buying it. Bioware is one of those developers. DA 2 was a travisty to me but I still had an okay time playing through it. Mass Effect 3's multiplayer has so far prevented me from finishing it. I'll definetly buy every game they release, within reason, as there are few developers that I take a personal liking to. Bungie and 343, 2k are all I can think of right now.

I was never annoyed with Bioware. Its their IP they can do what they want whether it pleases me specifically or not.

It's because of EA.

You are aware that gamers have their rage eyeballs pointed at Electronic Arts right now, right? Mass Effect 3 could have been the exact same game it is now, but if it was published by anyone else, you would have heard one news story about it's ending and that's it.

I'm not saying EA is responsible in any way. I thought Mass Effect's ending was spectacular, and it would be really weird to blame one of my favorite game companies if I did.

You know, at least BioWare doesn't have the problems of some other noteable game companies.

Their games actually work and don't crash, unlike Bethesda.
Their games actually get released, unlike Square Enix.
Their games don't reuse the same engine for 15 years, unlike Valve.
Their games actually have thought put into their writing, unlike everyone.

BioWare is the only game company that has a shot of making that hypothetical "Perfect Game" everyone likes to talk about.

Bhaalspawn:
It's because of EA.
Their games actually work and don't crash, unlike Bethesda.

Actually Dragon Age 2 was as buggy as Fallout 3 upon release. Not only did it crash, it also had issues with DLC items not appearing, saved games being wiped, companion perks/skills negating the players, quests being impossible to begin or complete, companions saying lines related to the wrong quests and achievements not being unlockable.

I can say these not only from experience, but from the torrent of threads on their official forums that I witnessed when I attempted to try and find fixes.

Mass Effect as a series has been much better in general in that regard.

They shall be forgiven when they stop being the useless corporate sell out they have become today (Or at least make games to their old quality)

Legion:

Bhaalspawn:
It's because of EA.
Their games actually work and don't crash, unlike Bethesda.

Actually Dragon Age 2 was as buggy as Fallout 3 upon release. Not only did it crash, it also had issues with DLC items not appearing, saved games being wiped, companion perks/skills negating the players, quests being impossible to begin or complete and achievements not being unlockable.

Mass Effect as a series has been much better in general in that regard.

That's funny, because I got Dragon Age 2 and had no issues. Then again, I play on BioWare's home platform...

Bhaalspawn:

Legion:

Bhaalspawn:
It's because of EA.
Their games actually work and don't crash, unlike Bethesda.

Actually Dragon Age 2 was as buggy as Fallout 3 upon release. Not only did it crash, it also had issues with DLC items not appearing, saved games being wiped, companion perks/skills negating the players, quests being impossible to begin or complete and achievements not being unlockable.

Mass Effect as a series has been much better in general in that regard.

That's funny, because I got Dragon Age 2 and had no issues. Then again, I play on BioWare's home platform...

You are right. You had no issues therefore nobody else could possibly have any either.

Silly me.

Bhaalspawn:

Their games don't reuse the same engine for 15 years, unlike Valve.

BioWare is the only game company that has a shot of making that hypothetical "Perfect Game" everyone likes to talk about.

Yeah because the source engine is terribly buggy, looks horrible, doesn't do what it's supposed to do, has no amazing fan made games/mods coming from it. Oh and because ME:3 looks so freaking amazing for a console port.

Bioware's quality in game making and customer satisfaction has dropped significantly over the lest few years, the quite clearly are doing something wrong.

Legion:

Bhaalspawn:

Legion:

Actually Dragon Age 2 was as buggy as Fallout 3 upon release. Not only did it crash, it also had issues with DLC items not appearing, saved games being wiped, companion perks/skills negating the players, quests being impossible to begin or complete and achievements not being unlockable.

Mass Effect as a series has been much better in general in that regard.

That's funny, because I got Dragon Age 2 and had no issues. Then again, I play on BioWare's home platform...

You are right. You had no issues therefore nobody else could possibly have any either.

Silly me.

I did not say that, do not put words in my mouth. I also pointed out that I play BioWare games on the PC, where they tend to be far more stable (much like how Elder Scrolls games are best played on PC considering how much people insist that mods make the games not suck)

I just pointed out that I never saw any of these glitches, so it's new info to me.

gunny1993:

Bhaalspawn:

Their games don't reuse the same engine for 15 years, unlike Valve.

BioWare is the only game company that has a shot of making that hypothetical "Perfect Game" everyone likes to talk about.

Yeah because the source engine is terribly buggy, looks horrible, doesn't do what it's supposed to do, has no amazing fan made games/mods coming from it. Oh and because ME:3 looks so freaking amazing for a console port.

Console port? I don't follow.

Bhaalspawn:

Legion:

Bhaalspawn:

That's funny, because I got Dragon Age 2 and had no issues. Then again, I play on BioWare's home platform...

You are right. You had no issues therefore nobody else could possibly have any either.

Silly me.

I did not say that, do not put words in my mouth. I also pointed out that I play BioWare games on the PC, where they tend to be far more stable (much like how Elder Scrolls games are best played on PC considering how much people insist that mods make the games not suck)

I just pointed out that I never saw any of these glitches, so it's new info to me.

Fair enough, I guess it is one of those things where you get lucky. Like in Fallout 3 I never had any issues (and people constantly talked about them) yet Fallout New Vegas I seemed to come across one every ten minutes.

Admittedly when it comes to bugs, PC gaming is definitely superior in that regard. On my Xbox I have to deal with bug issues, on the PC I can either download a mod/patch or I can use the console in many cases to fix it.

Already done. Although that may have been easier for me, as I don't think they've been nearly as bad as it has been said they are. I enjoyed Dragon Age 2, loved Mass Effect 3 for 99% of it, and didn't care for The Old Republic to begin with.

Sure, as soon as they make another RPG that lives up at least to DA:O, without the shovelware DLC.

Honestly, Mass Effect 2 was the first Bioware game I played, on PS3. And I loved it. One of my all time favourite games. Then I played KotOR, and loved it, if slightly less because it wasn't really my style of game. I never really got into Dragon Age: Origins, and I haven't played any of their other IPs, but they are undoubtedly my favourite developer. The worst they've done is a buggy game in a new genre, according to fans' complaints. I bought Mass Effect 3 Collector's Edition, and I loved it. I even found that the Extended Cut has gotten rid of all of my non-petty complaints about the ending. And it was free.

TL;DR, I saw no drop in average quality between KotOR and ME3. The only difference is the budget and the Prothean DLC, which would have ignored all hate had it come out a month later. I would blame this hate on nostalgia if I wanted to be lynched. Bioware is the best gaming developer in my opinion, having consistently created excellent games.

Also, to quote Yahtzee, maybe fans were upset about the ending because it WAS ending.

The only way they can redeem themselves in my eyes is what path they will choose to take with Dragon Age 3.

I really hope they will take more from Dragon Age Origins(which I loved) and less from Dragon Age 2.

Eh, I forgave them already. DA2 was about as good as the first for me, ME3's ending was pretty good after the extended cut was released, and as for TOR, I have little to compare it to since it's the only MMO I've played, and it seemed alright (So maybe I'll begin to hate Bioware as soon as Guild Wars 2 is released, who knows? :P). But yeah, I'll still keep buying Bioware games. As it stands, they've not done anything that matches the standards of KOTOR or the first Mass Effect recently, but who cares, those are some of my favourite games of all time, they're allowed a few mistakes after that.

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