Which MMO is better?
I think WoW was and remains the greatest MMO.
10.5% (46)
10.5% (46)
WoW wins it for me.
7.1% (31)
7.1% (31)
WoW was better, but has degenerated with the last few expansions.
16.9% (74)
16.9% (74)
Not sure!
6.2% (27)
6.2% (27)
TOR is better, but both titles wear thin on me.
28.6% (125)
28.6% (125)
TOR for sure, it's a more modern game and you can tell.
14.4% (63)
14.4% (63)
TOR is and will forever be the greatest MMO.
0.9% (4)
0.9% (4)
Other.
15.1% (66)
15.1% (66)
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Poll: Do you think TOR is a step-up from WoW?

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Jimbo1212:
Actually it was promoted as a multiplayer game with single player story elements to it, NOT as a single player game/KOTOR substitute.

The vast majority of the game is built around 8 class storylines which were designed to be solo adventures. That comes off as a single player game rather than multi.

008Zulu:

Jimbo1212:
Actually it was promoted as a multiplayer game with single player story elements to it, NOT as a single player game/KOTOR substitute.

The vast majority of the game is built around 8 class storylines which were designed to be solo adventures. That comes off as a single player game rather than multi.

To add my two cents, this game gave me the feeling of playing the same storyline that every other subscriber played. As such I feel like I would have felt playing through a TES game, rather than WoW.

Jimbo1212:

LetalisK:
You should probably tell Blizzard they're doing it wrong then.

...because raids, arena, battlegrounds, dungeons etc are all solo activities *facepalm*

Well, I'm glad you facepalmed yourself considering all those things are relatively small bits of content that rely on repetition as opposed to making and/or completely revamping whole continents of levelling content.

Edit: Also, don't try to play it off as if I said WoW doesn't have group-oriented content either. Having a sizable amount of solo content does not preclude a game from also having group content, as WoW does. To imply I said otherwise would be dishonest.

008Zulu:

Jimbo1212:
Actually it was promoted as a multiplayer game with single player story elements to it, NOT as a single player game/KOTOR substitute.

The vast majority of the game is built around 8 class storylines which were designed to be solo adventures. That comes off as a single player game rather than multi.

No they were not.
There is a reason why all the conversations can happen with a party of characters and the same time. The story was merely put there so it was the only mmo with an actual decent and clear storyline to follow.

LetalisK:

Jimbo1212:

LetalisK:
You should probably tell Blizzard they're doing it wrong then.

...because raids, arena, battlegrounds, dungeons etc are all solo activities *facepalm*

Well, I'm glad you facepalmed yourself considering all those things are relatively small bits of content that rely on repetition as opposed to making and/or completely revamping whole continents of levelling content.

Edit: Also, don't try to play it off as if I said WoW doesn't have group-oriented content either. Having a sizable amount of solo content does not preclude a game from also having group content, as WoW does. To imply I said otherwise would be dishonest.

Have you even played WoW? The whole end game, which lets remember is now the majority of content, is based on repetition eg. dailies, as the levelling now lasts only a few weeks. Then to add to it, the group content has always had the best rewards thus you are certainly encouraged to play it more than soloing.

MMO's are DEAD, the genre needs to just go the way of the dodo.

Subscripion based MMO's, anyway...

I was going to make a post about how its a matter of taste and World of Warcraft will always have the edge on new MMO's due to having more time to develop content. But screw that, let's rant.

World of Warcraft stopped being the sequel to Warcraft 3 when they fired their good writers. The Scarlet Crusade and the Argent Dawn was intended to be two rival factions working for the betterment of the world but with two different moral paths. The Scarlet Crusade would do whatever it took to wipe out the Scourge, but in the end wanted the best. In the end, by the time the Burning Crusade came out it was on par with a bad 90's anime. Then the Lich King showed up with all the powerful story elements of an episode of G.I. Joe.

But the gameplay? It's bog standard, but its standard because it perfected what had come before. It had made a successful system to work with, and as much as you may dislike it? Its what other MMO's must stand up to. World of Warcraft isn't gonna die anytime soon as much as we'd like it to.

So let's face it, World of Warcraft is here to stay, even if it should have died a long time ago.

The Old Republic, however? It has a lot of improvements to make and it's the only MMO I can't really predict the future of. On one hand i'm not sure how well they can expand what's there, and fix the issues. With what they've done, with the level of writing and animating they've done? I don't know how easily expansions are going to be for them. On one hand I think they've set themselves up to fail. But on the other hand I think if they pull it off they could do magical things with the standard they set for storytelling in an MMO.

TOR was the biggest waste of money I ever spent. I could of just re-subbed to WoW and had a better time.

Having played SWTOR on release, it lasted exactly 2 months for me.

It was just waaay too boring.
In the end it did nothing that WoW hadn't already perfected.
"But what about the rich story and voice acting?"

Rich story. You mean that one single quest chain per planet that had a bit of significance.
While 99% of the quests were same old get X for Y reason, just like WoW?

While the voice acting was a nice touch, when you noticed that 99% of the quests were really insignificant, I couldn't hit the space bar (skip) fast enough.

Another problem, for me, was the lack of different looking weapons.
I love the starwars world, but out of the 4 classes, 2 had lightsabers as their only weapon.
And with just 4 commonly available colours, you didn't have much of a choice in looks.

Though I do admit, I love the customizable gear.
Gear with no stats but slots where you can equip stats in, and upgrade those.
So you could stick with that one robe you love and not gimp yourself.

But for the rest, SWTOR was just another WoW that really didn't make the cut for me.
So after my 2 months were used up, I hopped back into Azeroth.

Ranorak:
Having played SWTOR on release, it lasted exactly 2 months for me.

It was just waaay too boring.
In the end it did nothing that WoW hadn't already perfected.
"But what about the rich story and voice acting?"

You list it's problems well.

TOR just didn't feel special for me, at all. You touched on all the problems. What the hell were they trying to pull with lightsabers?

Surely a lightsaber is something you get from the beginning? Sure, modifying them with crystals works but what are they trying to do getting us to continuously replace what should be our closest material companions? I felt kinda psyched by cool new hilts, I admit, but the excitement was overshadowed by a huge sense of 'what is the use?'

I would be really, really surprised if there was more than one 'route' of items for each class. I got the feeling that I got the same trash drops in the starter zone as everyone else, got the same quest saber as everyone else, got the same sabers from instances with shitty, small loot tables as everyone else, got the same robes and quest rewards and coupon rewards as everyone else.

Just bs.

I haven't played TOR at all and I've seen only a few videos but I used to play WoW and I feel like it's safe to say that WoW is a perfect MMO. Sure it has it's flaws but the games formula at it's core is nearly flawless. It's been out for a long time to people are ripping on it at this point due to the expansions and stuff but in reality the game's formula has created the modern addicted gamer. You don't get a following of 10 million subscribers by chance. The game is excellently made. Regardless of whether it wears on you or you don't particularly like the style I don't think it can be argued that WoW doesn't have a good formula.

Jimbo1212:

008Zulu:

Jimbo1212:
Actually it was promoted as a multiplayer game with single player story elements to it, NOT as a single player game/KOTOR substitute.

The vast majority of the game is built around 8 class storylines which were designed to be solo adventures. That comes off as a single player game rather than multi.

No they were not.
There is a reason why all the conversations can happen with a party of characters and the same time. The story was merely put there so it was the only mmo with an actual decent and clear storyline to follow.

Yeah, totally not a quality of life addition considering the game isn't piss-cake easy even when soloing...oh wait...

LetalisK:

Jimbo1212:

...because raids, arena, battlegrounds, dungeons etc are all solo activities *facepalm*

Well, I'm glad you facepalmed yourself considering all those things are relatively small bits of content that rely on repetition as opposed to making and/or completely revamping whole continents of levelling content.

Edit: Also, don't try to play it off as if I said WoW doesn't have group-oriented content either. Having a sizable amount of solo content does not preclude a game from also having group content, as WoW does. To imply I said otherwise would be dishonest.

Have you even played WoW? The whole end game, which lets remember is now the majority of content, is based on repetition eg. dailies, as the levelling now lasts only a few weeks. Then to add to it, the group content has always had the best rewards thus you are certainly encouraged to play it more than soloing.

Ooooo, close, but no cigar. The levelling has been shortened not because of less content, but because the demands for experience are less. And even if the content was shortened, it would still contain much more than the repetitious end-game.

Still waiting for you to show how having a group-oriented end game can't co-exist with being solo-friendly. *makes a little tent, grabs a case a beer, and a package of beef jerky* I figure I'm going to be waiting awhile.

denseWorm:
WoW started out blindingly, ticking all the boxes for millions upon millions of gamers, but has slowed in recent years, frustrating veterans and current playbases alike and winding down to what will probably become a free-to-play game a few patches into the next expansion, Mists of Pandaria.

Wait, am I getting this right? You're saying the MMO with 10+ million active subscribers will go Free-to-Play a few patches into their next expansion?

I doubt it.

Not that it would change my mind or anything, I've never played WoW and I never will. It just doesn't make any sense to change the subscription model to free when there are several millions actively subscribing to it.

Going F2P with some kind of microtransaction system would probably make them less money. People that played WoW and got bored and quit knows it's the same boring (for them since they got bored) game. People not having tried it yet probably won't either, after all, they've had almost 8 years to do so.

LetalisK:

Jimbo1212:

008Zulu:

The vast majority of the game is built around 8 class storylines which were designed to be solo adventures. That comes off as a single player game rather than multi.

No they were not.
There is a reason why all the conversations can happen with a party of characters and the same time. The story was merely put there so it was the only mmo with an actual decent and clear storyline to follow.

Yeah, totally not a quality of life addition considering the game isn't piss-cake easy even when soloing...oh wait...

LetalisK:
Well, I'm glad you facepalmed yourself considering all those things are relatively small bits of content that rely on repetition as opposed to making and/or completely revamping whole continents of levelling content.

Edit: Also, don't try to play it off as if I said WoW doesn't have group-oriented content either. Having a sizable amount of solo content does not preclude a game from also having group content, as WoW does. To imply I said otherwise would be dishonest.

Have you even played WoW? The whole end game, which lets remember is now the majority of content, is based on repetition eg. dailies, as the levelling now lasts only a few weeks. Then to add to it, the group content has always had the best rewards thus you are certainly encouraged to play it more than soloing.

Ooooo, close, but no cigar. The levelling has been shortened not because of less content, but because the demands for experience are less. And even if the content was shortened, it would still contain much more than the repetitious end-game.

Still waiting for you to show how having a group-oriented end game can't co-exist with being solo-friendly. *makes a little tent, grabs a case a beer, and a package of beef jerky* I figure I'm going to be waiting awhile.

A game that is an mmo yet is "piss easy" on your own is one word - broken. Also, you still can't do flashpoints or bg on your own, and they are a major part of the game.

The levelling was shortened in an attempt to get the most stupid kid possible to play WoW as well. Although it may have much content, 99% of players will not miss most of it and instead just grind through the end game content month on month until the next patch or expansion is released.

Also stop with the strawmen. I clearly stated that playing an mmo only for just the solo content is absurd, not that you have to have either one or the other.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, both games are pretty dire and the only reason why is still going is due to peoples social commitments to it, not the gameplay.

Jimbo1212:

Also stop with the strawmen. I clearly stated that playing an mmo only for just the solo content is absurd, not that you have to have either one or the other.

Yeah, sure you did.

Jimbo1212:

008Zulu:
Have to go for TOR. It's more solo friendly than WoW.

....but they are mmo's.
Being solo friendly is not good for an mmo, just as if Forza brought in solid base building mechanics or something equally pointless and off genre.
But either way, both games are pretty poor and the combat is horribly dated and slow.

....then you're playing on the wrong type of server. As I said, to play a multiplayer game for the single player content is not only bizarre, but means you're doing it wrong.

Want a smore? We can't put arbitrary and subjective definitions on whether or not a developer or players is making/playing a game "wrong" on an empty stomach, can we?

I say WoW wins. Not because its better, but TOR made sure we wouldn't have KOTOR 3

LetalisK:

Jimbo1212:

Also stop with the strawmen. I clearly stated that playing an mmo only for just the solo content is absurd, not that you have to have either one or the other.

Yeah, sure you did.

Jimbo1212:

008Zulu:
Have to go for TOR. It's more solo friendly than WoW.

....but they are mmo's.
Being solo friendly is not good for an mmo, just as if Forza brought in solid base building mechanics or something equally pointless and off genre.
But either way, both games are pretty poor and the combat is horribly dated and slow.

....then you're playing on the wrong type of server. As I said, to play a multiplayer game for the single player content is not only bizarre, but means you're doing it wrong.

Want a smore? We can't put arbitrary and subjective definitions on whether or not a developer or players is making/playing a game "wrong" on an empty stomach, can we?

You are joking right? You think that those comments also mean there is never a time nor place for solo play in an mmo? *epicfacepalm*
Can you not see the difference between myself saying that solo play should be a tiny part in mmos and never the main focus and what you claim I said - that mmos should have no solo play in it?
Either way, it looks like you are just derailing this thread on purpose now, so I would quit before the mods come in.

Jimbo1212:

LetalisK:

Jimbo1212:

Also stop with the strawmen. I clearly stated that playing an mmo only for just the solo content is absurd, not that you have to have either one or the other.

Yeah, sure you did.

Jimbo1212:

....but they are mmo's.
Being solo friendly is not good for an mmo, just as if Forza brought in solid base building mechanics or something equally pointless and off genre.
But either way, both games are pretty poor and the combat is horribly dated and slow.

....then you're playing on the wrong type of server. As I said, to play a multiplayer game for the single player content is not only bizarre, but means you're doing it wrong.

Want a smore? We can't put arbitrary and subjective definitions on whether or not a developer or players is making/playing a game "wrong" on an empty stomach, can we?

You are joking right? You think that those comments also mean there is never a time nor place for solo play in an mmo? *epicfacepalm*
Can you not see the difference between myself saying that solo play should be a tiny part in mmos and never the main focus and what you claim I said - that mmos should have no solo play in it?
Either way, it looks like you are just derailing this thread on purpose now, so I would quit before the mods come in.

*munches on a slightly burnt hotdog* My first comment was sarcastic. Just so you know. I could add some bold and sprinkle some pink on it if you'd like. The point was that you've shifted your position to something more defensible. Whether you're backpedaling or were just careless with your words in the beginning, I don't know.

Edit: Too much hotdog, don't know how "artificial" got in there.

As someone who has played WoW on the same character, same server since release AND as someone who has played TOR on the same character to this very day, all I have to say is that both games are lacking.

The problem I'm having with both games right now is that they both bore me. I want to still play WoW, but there's nothing for me to do beyond grinding a 9th character, or get achievements. The raids I've done, I've done a few dozen times and I can't take it anymore. I want new content, which is probably why I'll get the new expansion.

Star wars has the same problem for me. I like the game, and I love my Sniper (who is named Lee Harvey Oswald :D) and I can't play that game through with another character or for PVP. I only do the end game operations because they're new and are filling the void that WoW left in its lack of content.

In my opinion, neither are doing a good job. If Star Wars went free to play, I wouldn't care. I just want something to do.

Sixcess:
I wouldn't call SWTOR a step up, more a step sideways. With the sole exception of presentation it does nothing better than WoW. Everything else is either the same - exactly the same -, or worse.

That said, from Cataclysm onward WoW has degenerated to the point where I can't envisage myself going back to it - the bastardisation of the levelling experience is just painful to experience. I can see myself revisiting TOR, a bit, but neither have ever been among my favourite MMOs.

I don't have much WoW experience, but I feel SWToRs "problems" stem from the fact that it is a sideways upgrade instead of a new gaming experience. I had a lot of fun playing it for a 4 or 5 months, but and the end it didnt really compel me to drop games I had already invested in. I dont think the game is terrible, but I think its a game you revisit for a weekend a couple times a year, not one you suscribe to.

Asking me to spend hundreds of hours to see different story lines when I can get 10 playthroughs of a single player game with greater impact also soured me to the game. To me the games central focus of the game was EA wanted me to pay them 15 dollars a month to spend hours doing what would take minutes in a single player RPG.

Both are shitty hotkey MMO's.

I stopped playing WoW because I didn't like WoW.
I stopped playing TOR because I didn't like WoW.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

nu1mlock:
Wait, am I getting this right? You're saying the MMO with 10+ million active subscribers will go Free-to-Play a few patches into their next expansion?

I doubt it.

Doubt what you will, but Mists of Pandaria was about as distant a pipe dream as customized lowriders giving out free epics in Stormwind if April Fool's jokes were anything to go by and introducing this expansion marks a notable departure from the 'serious' developments of the last four expansions, it's lighthearted and I think it smacks of finality. And if it's going to be a final thing, then I don't expect it to be a subscription MMO for all eternity.

I've been playing The Old Republic free trial and so far it is absolutely awesome. Given I am a huge fan of Biowares games and have played them all, it must also be said that I have tried just about every MMO ever made, Korean, Chinese, US, Russian, every f2p game ever made and all paid MMOS, and TOR is by far the coolest one I have come across. I'm only level 12 but I will probably be picking the title up tomorrow and jumping in full steam ahead. It is the only MMO to actually keep me interested and not care about playing an xbox game to gain achievements. There is something to be said about that since I weened myself off of pc games a few years back. It also doesn't hurt that I am a massive fan of Star Wars. :D

Oh I also played SWG back in the day and really enjoyed it(had a jedi when you had to earn it and everything!) but I really think the story focused narrative and voice overs fit TOR game much better.

denseWorm:
To add my two cents, this game gave me the feeling of playing the same storyline that every other subscriber played. As such I feel like I would have felt playing through a TES game, rather than WoW.

That was my concern at first, then I just imagined everyone else in the game was an NPC doing their own stuff.

Jimbo1212:
No they were not.
There is a reason why all the conversations can happen with a party of characters and the same time. The story was merely put there so it was the only mmo with an actual decent and clear storyline to follow.

Then explain why in the single player missions, other characters have no influence on how the conversation can progress?

My favourite part is that all of them are still worse than Ragnarok Online.

008Zulu:

denseWorm:
To add my two cents, this game gave me the feeling of playing the same storyline that every other subscriber played. As such I feel like I would have felt playing through a TES game, rather than WoW.

That was my concern at first, then I just imagined everyone else in the game was an NPC doing their own stuff.

Heh but then it would have just been a slightly less predictable TES game. And outside of the guilds and central storyline I can't stand TES NPCs.

Next to EverQuest, EQ2 and this new Rift thing. I still believe that WoW was the most fun I've had from the two MMOs listed here. Mostly by virtue of remembering after all that nice story business is done, it still is an MMO and has to live up to innovative gameplay and interesting mechanics that come with being an MMO (well at least in my opinion).

Otherwise both are quite close. WoW just seems to have more "stuff" and has been polish and re-polished over and over and over again for the last seven years. It'll only continue to be polished until the glare from the rim burns your retinas out.

On a totally non related note....Guild Wars 2?

I think it's the exact same game with the lengthy quest blurbs being voiced instead of text on-screen.

The storytelling is thrown in and boring at best, so the attempt to tell a story doesn't really earn it any points here.

LetalisK:

Jimbo1212:

LetalisK:

Yeah, sure you did.

Want a smore? We can't put arbitrary and subjective definitions on whether or not a developer or players is making/playing a game "wrong" on an empty stomach, can we?

You are joking right? You think that those comments also mean there is never a time nor place for solo play in an mmo? *epicfacepalm*
Can you not see the difference between myself saying that solo play should be a tiny part in mmos and never the main focus and what you claim I said - that mmos should have no solo play in it?
Either way, it looks like you are just derailing this thread on purpose now, so I would quit before the mods come in.

*munches on a slightly burnt hotdog* My first comment was sarcastic. Just so you know. I could add some bold and sprinkle some pink on it if you'd like. The point was that you've shifted your position to something more defensible. Whether you're backpedaling or were just careless with your words in the beginning, I don't know.

Edit: Too much hotdog, don't know how "artificial" got in there.

You do know that not only did you not address the topic at hand, but you also failed to make a point as well?

denseWorm:
Heh but then it would have just been a slightly less predictable TES game. And outside of the guilds and central storyline I can't stand TES NPCs.

I was going to be a Smuggler, but then I took a Lightsaber to the knee.

Small mercies indeed.

Joseph Harrison:
This is how I judge it, when I played WoW I played for like a week got my guy to fifteen got bored then quit when the 15 day Free Trial ran out. With SWTOR I played for two entire subscriptions enjoyed myself immensely and got one character to 48 and another to 35 IIRC. I guess that's why I believe SWTOR is better.

agree on that, but then everyone wanted to compare wow + all its 40 dollar expansions over the past 10 years or whatever, to tor at launch. usually told them if tor had that much end game content then bioware should have charged 200 for it.

i give tor the edge over wow, i found pvp far more fun in tor over wow. and well wow does not have much of a story and what it does have does not even fit the lore half the time.

I played WoW since one month pre-launch of TBC and stopped maybe half a year into WotLK, I quit because that WotLK made CC obsolete that took away what I liked most about the game, the level of tactics while playing dungeons.

I've played TOR about a month after the launch and I love it as much as I hate it, I've loved Bioware's style of storytelling ever since I played Neverwinter Nights but there are things I hate about it as well like the alignment system that has no real benefits or lack of racial skills that benefit different classes so you can mix up your characters gaming experience.

I will properly ride along the wave that TOR has given me until MMOs have died out which i think is closer that what we think, the golden age of MMORPG are dying out and a new age of console wars are properly on the horizon in the near future but I are proud to been a part and have experienced the golden age of MMORPGs.

Is it is now, MMORPGs need to evolve to survive

Lybs:
I played WoW since one month pre-launch of TBC and stopped maybe half a year into WotLK, I quit because that WotLK made CC obsolete that took away what I liked most about the game, the level of tactics while playing dungeons.

So true. Whenever I played WotLK I had to kindly plead with my members to let me CC the pulls. I'd be like "omg please let's go 4-man and SOMEONE SHEEP SOMETHING". When I think of the greatest instances in WoW they are without a doubt the BRS instances, BRD, LBRS and UBRS, I won't count the raids - when it comes to raids the best ones for me were Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman.

I think you speak true when you speculate about the golden age of MMOs. The advent of microtransactions and free-to-play is completely compromising the quality, appeal and variety of the games being produced. Only EvE for me stands yet as a bastion of pure MMO ideals - despite it's own small scale forays into microtransactions - and I have no idea how long they will keep that up.

Ive played wow since vanilla (quit during cataclysm) and am a bearer of the founders title in swtor.

WoW is dated, cataclysm was extremely lacking in so many ways: Missing quests for the alliance, raids without lore explainations, less raids than in previous expansions, carbon copy *new* pvp maps, strong unbalance 1v1, Crappy graphics ( Cata barely upgraded anything other than water). Rehash after rehash after rehash ( new raids canceled for a contrived re opening of ZA and ZG, new 5 man slots taken up by refurbished sfk/deadmines etc)

I think Wrath of the lich king was the peak of wow. Cataclysm was terrible and seeing how much they are putting in to mop, they know they slacked off during cata.

As far as grinding, WoW is actually less grindy than swtor, but its far more difficult to go back to quest text after getting used to the dynamics of good voice acting.

Tor questing is much more interesting and engaging. The voice acting is excellent and the romance arcs are fun.

Tor graphics are much better than wow's

Swtor has some big issues with performance. Combat feels sluggish and the health bars don't seem to properly gauge when you are on your last leg. I don't like the cooldown resetting itself vertically.

Tor lacks a combat log, text bubbles and many other features we have come to expect. It should be noted that they did push wow to introduce aoe looting.

Tor needs a more engaging guild system, needs to work on tooltips and bring classes quests to the forefront rather than sprinkling them in between generic save the republic/empire main quests

Tor is a step up, but it really needs to get the fundamentals down alongside the impressive leveling experience.

Mists of pandaria, looks like an attempt by blizzard to right the wow ship, the graphics aside from old character models look better, and they are adding new ways to play. Cataclysm's biggest problem was that it added almost nothing new. It was an expansion of rehashes gambling on nostalgia

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