Ah but do you see that there is in fact no positive female characters in ICO?. Which was your point in the first place or have you forgotten what you were talking about already?.
Christ, I never once said they were positive. A child killing woman isn't positive but it bears some resemblance to the facts of life and as such is not sexist. I'm not going to go into Yorda because there's a whole thread on that. Needless to say I don't find it sexist.
Moonlight Butterfly: This kind of annoys me you know, she has a different opinion than all of you so you accuse her of being a scammer and not knowing what she is talking about despite her having the relevant qualifications.
If you disagree with her then admit it, don't bottle out and make excuses about non existent scams.
She never even asked for the amount of money she got and performing surveys is kind of a big part of research...
If Yahtzee or Extra Credits had done this you would have all been falling over yourselves to give them money but because it's a woman (and worse a feminist!) you just can't stand it. Hell Jim Sterling and Movie Bob have made quite a few intelligent videos commenting on sexism in games and none of you seems to think they are evil?
I suppose only people with dicks are allowed to have opinions on videogames.
Boudica, I don't know if you're insane or forgetful but he is right. There are more than two people in Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. You're having a go at people with no argument to back yourself up. Also judging by the lack of a response to my 'positive' female examples I can only conclude that you have no evidence to back yourself up.
I don't know about Shadow of the Collosus but in ICO there are three characters with lines.
-The little boy who is there to save the day
-The damsel in distress
-The evil queen who kills children (nice) and her group of masked knights who enforce her children killing ways.
Such positive roll models for young women! :p
Oh, come on. If Yathzee had asked for money to do this, I would have started questioning his sanity, although the end result would probably be hilarious. IN all seriousness, Yatzhee would not be the one I would consult on making a documentary about political correctness and gender equality in video games, althoough I got to admit, that the insights he provided in some of his videos were quite something. As for the extra credits guys: I would not give them my money. I enjoy some of their videos, but having them make a whole series on one topic, wich would also allow them to be as patronizing and condescending as god-knows-who does mot seem like a sensible idea, since they tend to be condescending and patronizing even on less disputed topics.
And on sexism, ico and strong women in video games: HAS THIS TOPIC NOT BEEN DONE TO DEATH ALREADY?
Ah but do you see that there is in fact no positive female characters in ICO?. Which was your point in the first place or have you forgotten what you were talking about already?.
And that makes the game sexist or bad how exactly?
There's no positive female role model in Silent Hill 2 either.
Yeah there is a general lack of them in gaming. Maybe someone should make a research project to figure out why that is.
Ah but do you see that there is in fact no positive female characters in ICO?. Which was your point in the first place or have you forgotten what you were talking about already?.
Christ, I never once said they were positive. A child killing woman isn't positive but it bears some resemblance to the facts of life and as such is not sexist. I'm not going to go into Yorda because there's a whole thread on that. Needless to say I don't find it sexist.
You said there was more than two characters in the game in a way which kind of suggested that Ripley from Aliens was hiding behind a piece of scenery the whole time...
Yorda is pretty damn sexist, not sure about the evil queen but the fact that the only other female character in the game is negative doesn't exactly help the games case.
Look, I loved ICO, I thought it was charming and a fun game but that doesn't make it immune to character based criticism.
Ah but do you see that there is in fact no positive female characters in ICO?. Which was your point in the first place or have you forgotten what you were talking about already?.
And that makes the game sexist or bad how exactly?
There's no positive female role model in Silent Hill 2 either.
Yeah there is a general lack of them in gaming. Maybe someone should make a research project to figure out why that is.
OH WAIT.
You know, there's no black people in Ico either. Or hispanics.
Casual Shinji: And that makes the game sexist or bad how exactly?
There's no positive female role model in Silent Hill 2 either.
Yeah there is a general lack of them in gaming. Maybe someone should make a research project to figure out why that is.
OH WAIT.
You know, there's no black people in Ico either. Or hispanics.
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
Quote from the creator of ICO
"But in the end I decided a boy would have a little more grip to climb the Trico. Another problem is that girls tend to wear skirts, and The Last Guardian features a lot of climbing."
Yeah the dude seems totally equal opportunities.
Men tend to be stronger in their arms when they reach puberty but an 8 or 9 year old would have equal climbing skill. Hell girls would even have an advantage as they tend to be taller.
Yeah there is a general lack of them in gaming. Maybe someone should make a research project to figure out why that is.
OH WAIT.
You know, there's no black people in Ico either. Or hispanics.
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
Casual Shinji: You know, there's no black people in Ico either. Or hispanics.
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
Except that Yorda isn't completely useless.
Huh.....deja vú. O_o
She kind of is...except for being a glorified key. Oh and if you hold her hand she makes your magic sword longer...
Ah but do you see that there is in fact no positive female characters in ICO?. Which was your point in the first place or have you forgotten what you were talking about already?.
Christ, I never once said they were positive. A child killing woman isn't positive but it bears some resemblance to the facts of life and as such is not sexist. I'm not going to go into Yorda because there's a whole thread on that. Needless to say I don't find it sexist.
You said there was more than two characters in the game in a way which kind of suggested that Ripley from Aliens was hiding behind a piece of scenery the whole time...
Yorda is pretty damn sexist, not sure about the evil queen but the fact that the only other female character in the game is negative doesn't exactly help the games case.
Look, I loved ICO, I thought it was charming and a fun game but that doesn't make it immune to character based criticism.
Wow you really are putting words in my mouth. I only said that there are indeed more than two characters. That's just a fact.
Like I said I'm not discussing Yorda. There's a 24 page long thread if you want to dive in and do that.
I thought Ico was good but marred by incredibly frustrating combat and the most useless partner in gaming history. But it's not sexist, because never do they imply women are like Yorda.
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
Except that Yorda isn't completely useless.
Huh.....deja vú. O_o
She kind of is...except for being a glorified key. Oh and if you hold her hand she makes your magic sword longer...
....
*cough*
If she's a glorified key then Ico is a glorified weapon. Still not sexist. As for the magic sword thing, if you're choosing to see it in a particular way then feel free do. Personally I see a secret weapon that's only effective when the two of them are together.
Merel Huijben: Living out a fantasy is fine, that's what fiction's for. But continually using male centered fantasies is a vicious circle: There are only a few women into games because they're made for men and because only men are into games, the games are made for men, which is why few women are into games...
I think you're missing some part of that cycle. Games weren't made "for" men, they were made BY men. That is to say gaming was invented, designed, created, distributed and improved by almost nothing but men. There's a difference. A lot of the games in the early days were gender-neutral, this kind of discrimination wasn't anywhere near as bad in the early arcade gaming days, certainly not intentionally. And we are talking the 1990's by which time females had most of their equalism and rights sorted out.
So why didn't women take that chance to immerse themselves into gaming and game development, to take the reigns of teams and help guide direction of gaming in general? Because they were brought up playing with dress-up dolls instead of lego/cars/robots/guns? Or because men in general are simply far better when it comes to math/engineering (and inevitably game development) than women, and have far more interest in gaming in general when compared to women?
There's something which has barely changed in the last 20 years, and that's the fact that most game developers continue to be males. Women continue to avoid game development/programming (like it'll give them AIDS or something) and the end result is whole teams full of men, with maybe 1-2 women who were talented and stubborn enough to follow-through with their career and stick with it.
So it BOGGLES me why women (that is, the few handful of women into gaming) get so surprised and offended when they come across the occasional game which mis-represents their gender. What the hell did they expect, an Ellen Ripley in every single game they picked off the shelf?
Game developers (that is, mostly males) have done a fairly good job in involving strong, deep female characters/leads in many games. Not ALL have done a good job (it's foolish to expect 100%) but a lot have done what they could within their constraints.
At this point I don't know what such a Kickstarter project would achieve exactly. Would it encourage more females to consider game development as a career? I doubt it. Or would it convince those few developers to suddenly start having amazing female characters? Yeah, there is a small chance.
I still don't know how so many people backed this up, honestly.
Yeah there is a general lack of them in gaming. Maybe someone should make a research project to figure out why that is.
OH WAIT.
You know, there's no black people in Ico either. Or hispanics.
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
First of, when did a female character being a killer suddenly also become sexist?
Secondly, there's only three characters in the whole game. A game that is very minimalistic; None of the characters have any character at all, except for the amount of character the player chooses to be there considering the stuation the characters are in. In actuallity Ico has the least depth out of all three.
At it's heart, Ico is a simple game about two kids escaping a haunted castle. That's it.
She kind of is...except for being a glorified key. Oh and if you hold her hand she makes your magic sword longer...
....
*cough*
If she's a glorified key then Ico is a glorified weapon. Still not sexist. As for the magic sword thing, if you're choosing to see it in a particular way then feel free do. Personally I see a secret weapon that's only effective when the two of them are together.
Yeah he's the capable central protagonist of the game that breaks out of a fortress and fights ghost demons at 8 years old, he's such a glorified weapon...
-.-
Even making Yorda capable of holding a weapon might of been nice even if she was crap with it.
Ive not really paid attention to this whole Sarkeesian thing, but is the gist of it that she wants to produce a series (basically a version of Extra Credits where instead of talking about the betterment of the video game world, its the betterment of womens roles in videogames), but she wont do it unless shes paid up front? And people have actually ponied up straight off with no guarantee?
This seems crazy to me. Regardless of her content, thats not the way this industry works - first you produce something, and if people like it they back you. Why has she been able to circumvent that?
Casual Shinji: You know, there's no black people in Ico either. Or hispanics.
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
First of, when did a female character being a killer suddenly also become sexist?
Secondly, there's only three characters in the whole game. A game that is very minimalistic; None of the characters have any character at all, except for the amount of character the player chooses to be there considering the stuation the characters are in. In actuallity Ico has the least depth out of all three.
At it's heart, Ico is a simple game about two kids escaping a haunted castle. That's it.
Yes and out of the 2 kids the female one is useless and the male one is capable = sexism. It's not about the woman being a villain it's about villain or damsel being the only option out of that game.
I wasn't anything like Yorda when I was that age and that bothers me.
rollerfox88: Ive not really paid attention to this whole Sarkeesian thing, but is the gist of it that she wants to produce a series (basically a version of Extra Credits where instead of talking about the betterment of the video game world, its the betterment of womens roles in videogames), but she wont do it unless shes paid up front? And people have actually ponied up straight off with no guarantee?
This seems crazy to me. Regardless of her content, thats not the way this industry works - first you produce something, and if people like it they back you. Why has she been able to circumvent that?
She's made plenty of videos on the subject on feminism, she runs a website on the subject and she lectures at Universities, her videos are also used in universities.
She's not just some random woman that has come out of nowhere.
Okay, let's talk about Ico. Why? Because I've never played Ico and I only feel comfortable talking about games I've never played (that's not some meta dig at Sarkeesian, that's an exactly-what-it-looks-like dig at me)
There are three characters in the game: Ico, the main character, Yorda, The Girl, and the Queen, who is so evil even her name is afraid of her. There are also some assorted smoke monsters, so we know the game isn't spiderist.
Anyone who considers a female antagonist to be sexist is...I'm going to go out on a limb and say "incapable of rational thought". Which is okay. Lots of people haven't internalized the concepts of logic. Just know that if you can't think rationally, talking and/or posting is not recommended.
The game draws a parallel between of the relationship of Ico and Yorda and Yorda and the Queen. The Queen is Yorda's mother, but their relationship is twisted - the Queen's goal is to use Yorda to prolong her own life. This contrasts with Ico, who goes back to save Yorda. Her ability to open certain doors first does not make her useless, but it's primarily an incentive for the player to take her along because if she wasn't necessary, you would leave her behind no matter your gender. Because that's the point of the game: to make you want to haul around a useless sack of potatoes (who isn't, strictly speaking, useless).
Also Yorda saves Ico's life at the end. That's also a thing.
EDIT: And now my post seems entirely out of date because people POSTED while I was typing. Which is UNACCEPTABLE.
Moonlight Butterfly: This kind of annoys me you know, she has a different opinion than all of you so you accuse her of being a scammer and not knowing what she is talking about despite her having the relevant qualifications.
It doesn't take much to qualify to make a video series. Also, with $150,000 and 300 games, she should have been able to produce something by her dead line. Even if she had to hire researchers and editors. But no, she didn't. She did, however, find time to go to Sweden.
Moonlight Butterfly: If you disagree with her then admit it, don't bottle out and make excuses about non existent scams.
If what I'm seeing on here is true, then yeah I disagree with her.
Moonlight Butterfly: She never even asked for the amount of money she got and performing surveys is kind of a big part of research...
Getting more then you wanted would be a God-send to most producers. It gives you a greater pool of resources, like labor to do the grunt work. Also, according to her own tweet, those surveys aren't part of her research. But they are. But they aren't?
Moonlight Butterfly: If Yahtzee or Extra Credits had done this you would have all been falling over yourselves to give them money but because it's a woman (and worse a feminist!) you just can't stand it. Hell Jim Sterling and Movie Bob have made quite a few intelligent videos commenting on sexism in games and none of you seems to think they are evil?
They never had $150,000 thrown at them, but failed to produce. Hell, if this wasn't a Kickstarter project, she would be in deep with her funders' legal department.
Frankly, if Yahtzee, MovieBob, or JS had screwed up like this, I'd be grabbing my torch and pitchfork to. Really, the only sexist here is you. And, possibly that one dude who's base criticism came down to her looks.
Moonlight Butterfly: I suppose only people with dicks are allowed to have opinions on videogames.
Boudica, I don't know if you're insane or forgetful but he is right. There are more than two people in Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. You're having a go at people with no argument to back yourself up. Also judging by the lack of a response to my 'positive' female examples I can only conclude that you have no evidence to back yourself up.
I don't know about Shadow of the Collosus but in ICO there are three characters with presence.
-The little boy who is there to save the day
Sounds like we have bigger issues then sexism. Like child labor! /grr.
Some very popular female figures have been females in distress, nothing new. Yet, still popular.
Moonlight Butterfly: -The evil queen who kills children (nice) and her group of masked knights who enforce her children killing ways.
Wow, so one woman has control of a vast horde of trained killers who act on her every whim without question. If I give you my penis, can I have a horde of my own?
Why can't a girl have a male role-model, exactly? My mother was mine.
Moonlight Butterfly: ICO is sexist in a kind of old style fairytale kind of way and frankly when I was 4 years old I was making a face at these situations.
Tan-fucking-fastic. Maybe if more of that happens, we can at once end the throng of women who want to be taken care of, but still want to be treated like an equal.
Moonlight Butterfly: One story in particular. The King notices his daughters are wearing their shoes out so he says anyone who can find out where they are going can have the eldest's hand in marriage (facepalm) So this guy finds out they are going out and partying all night right. So he tells the king, he gets the princess and THEY ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO GO AND DANCE AGAIN.
Sounds like a bad night in Vegas.
Moonlight Butterfly: Even in my fresh toddler mind I could not comprehend how much bullshit that is. Seriously. I noticed that the story was on Jackonory recently (British kids tv show) and they changed the ending to the princess' being allowed to openly dance. Society has moved on from this crap so why hasn't video games.
I'm pretty 90% of modern video games are nothing like that. While What'shisteeth is being carrying his fleshy burlap sack, trying to out maneuver the hordes of killers, Commander Shepard (who's a woman in the graphic novels, FYI) is busy saving the galaxy from the Reapers.
Sean951: This site makes me sad. She is accountable to her backers, and never intended to get that much money. That we are still dismissing her for being "unattractive" does lend credence to her argument though.
I don't think it was a scam, and considering she has her Masters and has taught at a college level, I think she may have just gotten in a little to deep and needs a starting point.
That's not the impression I got at all. I think she's being inclusive. Y'know, getting feedback from her audience and adding their voices into the mix?
(Not aimed at Sean:)
It's amazing how people take this as a sign that Anita Sarkeesian has no idea what she's doing. But you know what? These people are going to wring their hands regardless of the quality of the work she releases. Judging by her previous work, it's going to be good, and it's going to sneak its way into thousands of college-level media theory lectures.
Don't mind me. I'm just going to heat up some popcorn and watch the kneejerks.
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
First of, when did a female character being a killer suddenly also become sexist?
Secondly, there's only three characters in the whole game. A game that is very minimalistic; None of the characters have any character at all, except for the amount of character the player chooses to be there considering the stuation the characters are in. In actuallity Ico has the least depth out of all three.
At it's heart, Ico is a simple game about two kids escaping a haunted castle. That's it.
Yes and out of the 2 kids the female one is useless and the male one is capable = sexism. It's not about the woman being a villain it's about villain or damsel being the only option out of that game.
I wasn't anything like Yorda when I was that age and that bothers me.
And there you go. The game didn't conform to your experience and as such it's sexist. I'm glad you finally admitted it. Now please, get over it. Not everything is going to conform to your expectations, and nor should it.
Casual Shinji: First of, when did a female character being a killer suddenly also become sexist?
Secondly, there's only three characters in the whole game. A game that is very minimalistic; None of the characters have any character at all, except for the amount of character the player chooses to be there considering the stuation the characters are in. In actuallity Ico has the least depth out of all three.
At it's heart, Ico is a simple game about two kids escaping a haunted castle. That's it.
Yes and out of the 2 kids the female one is useless and the male one is capable = sexism. It's not about the woman being a villain it's about villain or damsel being the only option out of that game.
I wasn't anything like Yorda when I was that age and that bothers me.
And there you go. The game didn't conform to your experience and as such it's sexist. I'm glad you finally admitted it. Now please, get over it. Not everything is going to conform to your expectations, and nor should it.
Not really that was just a side note. Good job on ignoring the main jist of my post which was there are no positive female role models in that game.
rollerfox88: Ive not really paid attention to this whole Sarkeesian thing, but is the gist of it that she wants to produce a series (basically a version of Extra Credits where instead of talking about the betterment of the video game world, its the betterment of womens roles in videogames), but she wont do it unless shes paid up front? And people have actually ponied up straight off with no guarantee?
This seems crazy to me. Regardless of her content, thats not the way this industry works - first you produce something, and if people like it they back you. Why has she been able to circumvent that?
She's made plenty of videos on the subject on feminism, she runs a website on the subject and she lectures at Universities, her videos are also used in universities.
She's not just some random woman that has come out of nowhere.
Also, the person you're responding to doesn't seem to know what this 'Kickstarter' thing is.
UnmotivatedSlacker: Apparently Anita didn't meet her deadline(the estimated time was Aug)
haha, she has to give out refunds now
That is technically incorrect. She would only have to give out refunds should she fail to deliver the promised rewards that are associated with the project. Any personal deadlines that she has set for herself are certainly a factor towards said potential failure but she would only be forced to give out refunds should said backers do not receive the reward they "purchased".
oh, i don't care. I just want the irritating bitch to be burned in a pit of cobras Yes, I know the cobras would burn as well.
Yes and out of the 2 kids the female one is useless and the male one is capable = sexism. It's not about the woman being a villain it's about villain or damsel being the only option out of that game.
I wasn't anything like Yorda when I was that age and that bothers me.
And there you go. The game didn't conform to your experience and as such it's sexist. I'm glad you finally admitted it. Now please, get over it. Not everything is going to conform to your expectations, and nor should it.
Not really that was just a side note. Good job on ignoring the main jist of my post which was there are no positive female role models in that game.
All you said was because there was a capable male and a useless woman the game was sexist. Which is wrong. There are useless women in real life believe it or not. You have no evidence that the game is sexist apart from your feelings, which I'm sorry, don't matter.
Yeah I'm sexist for calling out hypocrisy, seems legit. -.-
Commander Shepard is only allowed to act the way she does because she is a copy paste of a male character. You will see that women have gravitated towards games that do that because they are the ones that allow us to have some power fantasy alongside men. Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Bioware games have massive female followings.
Yet in those games we still see plenty of pandering.
Faraja: Tan-fucking-fastic. Maybe if more of that happens, we can at once end the throng of women who want to be taken care of, but still want to be treated like an equal.
Yeah because those sorts of women totally exist and are not at all a sexist stereotype. -.-
As for those people saying 'Men make the majority of games so that makes sexism alright' do you even listen yourselves? Would white people making racist games be fine with you then.
Men are capable of making decent female characters it's just a cop out to suggest otherwise. Look at Stephen King for example, he has absolutely no problem putting himself into the mind of a nine year old girl lost in the woods. 'The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon' So why is it such a massive issue for games devs?
Yeah he's the capable central protagonist of the game that breaks out of a fortress and fights ghost demons at 8 years old, he's such a glorified weapon...
-.-
Even making Yorda capable of holding a weapon might of been nice even if she was crap with it.
An 8 year old hacking through ghosts and demons? Halo covered something like that. The Spartan-II's were all inducted when they were about six. At eight, they still wouldn't have been able to pull that off, and they were turned into super soldiers.
Also, giving her a weapon wouldn't have done jack. People would have complained about a companion character trying to help, and getting in the way. And you'd be here complaining that she isn't as capable as the men.
That she increases the main character's abilities giving her more purpose then "open door, now" is awesome.
Oh, and as an aside; when I was about 8-9, me and the boys in my school had it drilled into our head never to hit the girls. Ever. Because we could have inflicted more pain to them then they could have to us.
And there you go. The game didn't conform to your experience and as such it's sexist. I'm glad you finally admitted it. Now please, get over it. Not everything is going to conform to your expectations, and nor should it.
Not really that was just a side note. Good job on ignoring the main jist of my post which was there are no positive female role models in that game.
All you said was because there was a capable male and a useless woman the game was sexist. Which is wrong. There are useless women in real life believe it or not. You have no evidence that the game is sexist apart from your feelings, which I'm sorry, don't matter.
There isn't a single positive female character in the game and Yorda is completely useless at things that a nine year old girl is perfectly capable of.
Also why do my feelings 'not matter' Men seem to always do this when it comes to this subject. Human beings have feelings without them you can't make decisions effectively, they are a part of life.
I find the fact that you are calling me out on 'having feelings', when you have a massive knee jerk defensive reaction to anyone saying anything bad about your precious video games, hilarious.
I have been gaming since 1984, as a consumer and a female gamer, my 'feelings' matter. Sorry if that bothers you.
Yeah he's the capable central protagonist of the game that breaks out of a fortress and fights ghost demons at 8 years old, he's such a glorified weapon...
-.-
Even making Yorda capable of holding a weapon might of been nice even if she was crap with it.
An 8 year old hacking through ghosts and demons? Halo covered something like that. The Spartan-II's were all inducted when they were about six. At eight, they still wouldn't have been able to pull that off, and they were turned into super soldiers.
Also, giving her a weapon wouldn't have done jack. People would have complained about a companion character trying to help, and getting in the way. And you'd be here complaining that she isn't as capable as the men.
Oh, and as an aside; when I was about 8-9, me and the boys in my school had it drilled into our head never to hit the girls. Ever. Because we could have inflicted more pain to them then they could have to us.
You were mislead. I was taller than all of the lads in my class at that point and a hell of a lot stronger.
:|
My dad used to hit me and I could take it, pretty sure an 8 year old boy would be pretty laughable.
Apparently these ghost demons aren't that amazing you can subdue them with a stick, pretty sure Yorda could have helped herself if she tried girl or no...
There isn't a single positive female character in the game and Yorda is completely useless at things that a nine year old girl is perfectly capable of.
I'm confused. Why does there have to be a positive female character? Like, every game should have positive female characters? Most RPG's have useless NPCs of both genders and a protagonist that can be either male or female...
Well ICO himself doesn't look Caucasian and the knights are masked so you don't know. :p
But seriously I don't think calling out a game on being sexist when one female character is completely useless and the other murders children is that far of a stretch.
First of, when did a female character being a killer suddenly also become sexist?
Secondly, there's only three characters in the whole game. A game that is very minimalistic; None of the characters have any character at all, except for the amount of character the player chooses to be there considering the stuation the characters are in. In actuallity Ico has the least depth out of all three.
At it's heart, Ico is a simple game about two kids escaping a haunted castle. That's it.
Yes and out of the 2 kids the female one is useless and the male one is capable = sexism. It's not about the woman being a villain it's about villain or damsel being the only option out of that game.
I wasn't anything like Yorda when I was that age and that bothers me.
So every female character that isn't as strong or stronger than you is automatically a sexist representation of women?
What if the story simply calls for a character to be weak? What if this character spent his/her whole life incarcerated in a haunted castle occupied by shadowy demons, cut off from society, under the rule of an abusive all powerful parent who means to use him/her as vessel? You don't think that would severely demotivate anyone regardless of gender? And that another character that was untill very recently put in a similar situation might be more enclined to escape, being less familiar with it?
Yorda should've been an independent fighter battle demons besides Ico, and thereby completely breaking the main gameplay mechanic?
Moonlight Butterfly: Yeah I'm sexist for calling out hypocrisy, seems legit. -.-
You're the one who said people would throw money at Yahtzee, Bob, JS, and the Extra Credit's guys, and let them get away with abusing that money because they have penises.
Moonlight Butterfly: Commander Shepard is only allowed to act the way she does because she is a copy paste of a male character. You will see that women have gravitated towards games that do that because they are the ones that allow us to have some power fantasy alongside men. Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Bioware games have massive female followings.
You're right, or is the male the copy of the female? In the ME graphic novels, Shepard is a woman. Keep in mind that Commander Shepard is still hailed for his/her abilities to lead and skills as a soldier. Also, keep in mind that there is a race of all-female, blue, aliens.
Faraja: Tan-fucking-fastic. Maybe if more of that happens, we can at once end the throng of women who want to be taken care of, but still want to be treated like an equal.
Yeah because those sorts of women totally exist and are not at all a sexist stereotype. -.-
They, unfortunetly, do. If you can't, or won't, see it; then it's really not my problem.
Moonlight Butterfly: As for those people saying 'Men make the majority of games so that makes sexism alright' do you even listen yourselves? Would white people making racist games be fine with you then.
I don't recall him/her saying sexism was okay. Only that there was plenty of opportunity for women to get in on the ground floor, but they choose not to. Obviously these teams of mostly men are going to make what they want to make. As such, you might see more sexualized/less important female characters. Of course, there are all kinds of reasons why women might not have wanted to get into gaming. Someone should do a documentary on that.
[quote="Moonlight Butterfly" post="9.387184.15461566"]Men are capable of making decent female characters it's just a cop out to suggest otherwise. Look at Stephen King for example, he has absolutely no problem putting himself into the mind of a nine year old girl lost in the woods. 'The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon' So why is it such a massive issue for games devs?
Cortana is the first character that springs to mind.
Goodness me, I didn't realise the project had raised $160,000.
Anyone with no experience or background in video production and seemingly very little more than a first year uni student grasp of pondering art from gender specific angles is going to struggle to produce a product worth that kind of investment. What happens if there is no delivered product? I guess you can't get a refund?
Looks like something quite shallow will be offered and then a vanishing act could occur. I feel sorry for the people who could effectively lose money.
I also feel a bit sorry for the girl involved, she clearly had no idea she would amass this much funding and does not seem to have the skill to deliver what she wanted to deliver. I could be wrong but it seems that way.
Faraja: Also, giving her a weapon wouldn't have done jack. People would have complained about a companion character trying to help, and getting in the way. And you'd be here complaining that she isn't as capable as the men.
That she increases the main character's abilities giving her more purpose then "open door, now" is awesome.
Oh, and as an aside; when I was about 8-9, me and the boys in my school had it drilled into our head never to hit the girls. Ever. Because we could have inflicted more pain to them then they could have to us.
Alyx Vance, anyone? Y'know, the fan favorite character who can handle herself just fine alongside the mute serial killer in power armor? Ring any bells?
Oh, she makes the guy more powerful? Oh, that's not problematic at all. I think what you have to realize is that problematic elements don't make a game bad, but they should be discussed and acknowledged for the representations they are. Anita's videos are part of that discourse.
(You really shouldn't be using violence against anyone, unless it's in self defense or a similar situation. That's what I was taught.)
She kind of is...except for being a glorified key. Oh and if you hold her hand she makes your magic sword longer...
....
*cough*
If she's a glorified key then Ico is a glorified weapon. Still not sexist. As for the magic sword thing, if you're choosing to see it in a particular way then feel free do. Personally I see a secret weapon that's only effective when the two of them are together.
Yeah he's the capable central protagonist of the game that breaks out of a fortress and fights ghost demons at 8 years old, he's such a glorified weapon...
-.-
Even making Yorda capable of holding a weapon might of been nice even if she was crap with it.
Ico isn't capable of escaping, hence why he needs Yorda. Yorda isn't capable of fighting, hence why she needs Ico. See what I'm getting at?
Christ, I never once said they were positive. A child killing woman isn't positive but it bears some resemblance to the facts of life and as such is not sexist. I'm not going to go into Yorda because there's a whole thread on that. Needless to say I don't find it sexist.