Videogames in the Master Plan

EDIT2: HOLY SHIT! How could i forgot about adding music to this post! the regret....i cant take it anymore...i must...expel it!!

A few hours ago, i was starving intellectually and having a headache after reading a The Game Overthinker blog where he praised Film Critic Hulk for having the same opinion as him (no surprises there) regarding the Mass Effect 3 ending, so i went to the page of the guys that made the analizys of the Metal Gear Solid 2 ending to compare the "post-modern" message of both games out of curiosity (and to feel that at least SOMEONE does the research for once before opening their mouths.)

http://metagearsolid.org/articles.html

After digging a bit more, i found that those guys ALSO made this article:

http://metagearsolid.org/2011/07/video-games-in-the-master-plan/

Its about how the media around videogames (IGN and more) is promoting the worst aspect of gaming ASAP (the harcore-macho-only-no-women-and-children-allowed flavor of bullshit) to DELIBERATELY reduce its potential as a tool to fight ignorance and illiteracy. Courtesy of Rupert Murdoch.

What do you think about this?

EDIT1: I dont know about you, but i feel that doing what Jim wants in this episode:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6187-Why-Boycotts-Fail-Where-Whining-Tantrums-Win
...may not be a good idea under this new knowledge.

Reading about 'Bro-verload' gave me several diseases.

Isolate ALL the demographics :D

Ugh. Give me some time to recover from that. Damn IGN, I can see why people hate them now.

Overusedname:
Reading about 'Bro-verload' gave me several diseases.

Isolate ALL the demographics :D

Ugh. Give me some time to recover from that. Damn IGN, I can see why people hate them now.

Its ok, take your time.

In fact, this could open a new set of questions like: How aware are the game developers of this? Is this kind of information that lead people to FORCE "Art" on an ending?? like say.....Mass Effect 3 ending?

Regardless of your feelings about the ending OR the fact that they belong to EA in the first place, i want you to take a step back and try to think how it would be to be pressured into SUBVERTING this image of the gaming community. The feeling that in ANY moment, the games will be labeled as "intellectually-bankrupt" just because of a mass media manipulation, and for that reason, you struggled at ALL COST to release a game ending that you think its "Art" just to stay relevant.

Overusedname:
Reading about 'Bro-verload' gave me several diseases.

Isolate ALL the demographics :D

Ugh. Give me some time to recover from that. Damn IGN, I can see why people hate them now.

Hmm.... no one seems to care to read about it. Maybe it will help a little if we engage in a discussion to animate everyone to jump in.

I read the article. Should I feel powerless to stop this or should I pick up a book and join them in the circle jerk and pick up a cigar?

DioWallachia:

Overusedname:
Reading about 'Bro-verload' gave me several diseases.

Isolate ALL the demographics :D

Ugh. Give me some time to recover from that. Damn IGN, I can see why people hate them now.

Hmm.... no one seems to care to read about it. Maybe it will help a little if we engage in a discussion to animate everyone to jump in.

Okay, well commenting on just the Broverload thing:

OH GOD WHY.

I'm amazed that such a blatant thing exists, honestly. I mean, I know how marketing works: gaming websites will often have things aimed at young men, like how hallmark commercials are quite likely to include more feminine hygiene products. And thats...fine. A little exploitative, and a little generalist in some cases. But to this extent? Uggggghh. It's literally a marketing campaign dedicated to isolating everyone but that one demographic.

Here's something people often get wrong about gamer stats: Most gamers are not straight white men in between 15 and 35. That's just the single largest demographic. They don't make up 50% or more of people playing games. Obviously that doesn't change the fact that a mainstream dev with millions of bucks on the line should aim for that demographic, but why isolate everyone else? Why is nintendo the only company that makes high-budget games for kids and families anymore? Ratchet and Clank and Little Big Planet are the only other kid-friendly games I can think of from other companies with actual big budgets.

I dunno, I hate how homogenized and pandering games have been getting in the mainstream lately. It feels less and less like developers and writers just wanted to make a new story and sell a respectable amount. Most just follow the leader of the respective genre with mild tweaks. And there are plenty of exemptions, but there seems to be much less experimentation lately. And this type of extreme focus marketing is just costing them a lot of money.

Zelda, Persona and Final Fantasy are REALLY popular among female gamers I know, and I think it's because they have a good ratio of kickass, well-developed females to males and have settings and themes that are more universal than "We're men, and men kill to solve problems with no moral qualms or believable drama at all." Which is not a mentality I personally relate to at all, speaking as a straight white guy. :/

I'm fine with all them macho games existing (otherwise I'd just be a hypocrit), this ain't about taking guys' toys away, but variety is nice for everyone, yes? No ones happy about how survival horror has become 'CoD with creepy graphics'. There's a reason EA keeps loosing stock support. They go out of their way to pander to one very specific demographic while stupidly pushing away everyone who doesn't fit in. I find it odd they claim they want to 'broaden appeal' by adding more CoDish action and multiplayer to things like Dead Space. I realize it will keep selling...but I dunno how sustainable EA is going to be if they keep up the current trends and keep loosing more and more support. And they hold A LOT of franchise power in this market.

Maybe they'll last forever, but all the evidence I've seen suggests that in a few years their decisions might just bite them in the ass. They inflate their costs, and decrease their demographic. I find it hard to find an EA 'fan' these days.

Overusedname:
SNIP

Well, from a TECHNICAL standpoint, CoD is a CASUAL game.

From a MARKETING standpoint, its a HARCORE GAME BRO. Fuck families and children, they dont have the balls of steel to take the "REALISSUM" of this game.

So for that, i kinda see why EA would appeal to these people. The real question becomes:
"Are they being lied to?" Is it possible that they receive false information on statistics about the demographics WHILE AT THE SAME TIME the marketing aims to a specific one?
Could it be that EA is just a VICTIM too and their pretense of "gamers cant take change" is because they GENUINELY BELIEVE that its what the "majority" wants, according to the false data they got?

That would explain the leaps of logic these idiots take.

Fun Fact: Scientists believe that "REALISSUM" stands for "Realism" in the primitive language of the HARCORE species.

This reminds me of Black Evil Television from the Boondocks.

Some sort of Dr. Evil type running the show over at IGN trying to find ways to broify their own fanbase.

Okay, I only read about half of the article, but I feel that this article has made me more stupid. Is the bro-gamer culture stupid and something that needs to be eradicated? Yes. Is IGN significant in perpetuating this culture? Probably. Does IGN care more about advertisers than its readership? Maybe. Is there some evil master plan to eliminate free thought, that IGN is a part of, so we all buy whatever shit our corporate overlords throw at us? I highly doubt it.

The entire premise that IGN's stupidity is designed to eliminate free thought is frankly stupid, and undermines any potentially valid points that the article has. The simpler and more logical explanation is that IGN is the way it is because that gets them the most ad money. I will agree that there are problems with gamer culture and gaming media, but saying that it's a part of some conspiracy just takes focus away from the actual problem.

Also, if there is a conspiracy to make us all stupider, its not working. People are far more educated than they have been at any time in history, IQs are going up (the average stays 100 because they keep readjusting it so the average will always be 100), and people are having more intellectually demanding jobs. In fact, these intellectually demanding jobs are the biggest explanation why people flock to "stupid" media. If I'm spending all day racking my brain over stuff, I'm probably not going to want to think too hard once I get home. Hence, intelligent people using stupid media.

ohnoitsabear:
Okay, I only read about half of the article, but I feel that this article has made me more stupid. Is the bro-gamer culture stupid and something that needs to be eradicated? Yes. Is IGN significant in perpetuating this culture? Probably. Does IGN care more about advertisers than its readership? Maybe. Is there some evil master plan to eliminate free thought, that IGN is a part of, so we all buy whatever shit our corporate overlords throw at us? I highly doubt it.

The entire premise that IGN's stupidity is designed to eliminate free thought is frankly stupid, and undermines any potentially valid points that the article has. The simpler and more logical explanation is that IGN is the way it is because that gets them the most ad money. I will agree that there are problems with gamer culture and gaming media, but saying that it's a part of some conspiracy just takes focus away from the actual problem.

Also, if there is a conspiracy to make us all stupider, its not working. People are far more educated than they have been at any time in history, IQs are going up (the average stays 100 because they keep readjusting it so the average will always be 100), and people are having more intellectually demanding jobs. In fact, these intellectually demanding jobs are the biggest explanation why people flock to "stupid" media. If I'm spending all day racking my brain over stuff, I'm probably not going to want to think too hard once I get home. Hence, intelligent people using stupid media.

The article itself said about how its statements may sound like conspiracy to some. But given the fact that people are still stupid enough to believe in the Vocal Minority as the "real" fanbase of gaming:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VocalMinority

I would say that if i were someone who can bombard a mass quantity of people into believing whatever bullshit i want, i would use it ASAP.

And i am pretty sure that, in this cynical and decadent world, people who are corrupted by power WILL use that advantage.

DioWallachia:
The article itself said about how its statements may sound like conspiracy to some. But given the fact that people are still stupid enough to believe in the Vocal Minority as the "real" fanbase of gaming:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VocalMinority

I would say that if i were someone who can bombard a mass quantity of people into believing whatever bullshit i want, i would use it ASAP.

And i am pretty sure that, in this cynical and decadent world, people who are corrupted by power WILL use that advantage.

There totally are people in positions of power that use that power to manipulate people. However, the manipulation is usually along the lines of trying to get people to buy their products or vote for their candidate, not trying to eliminate free thought.

I'm going to pull Occam's razor on this one. Assuming that their is a master plan to reduce free thought would involve assuming that corporations, especially in entertainment, are all working with each other to ensure that people have a reduced means of free expression, instead of just doing whatever will make them the most money.

Like I said, there's probably legitimate discussion to be had with the information of the article (like IGN bragging to advertisers about how they tailor ads specifically to a specific demographic), but focusing how it works into a "master plan" is just stupid conspiracy bullshit.

ohnoitsabear:

DioWallachia:
The article itself said about how its statements may sound like conspiracy to some. But given the fact that people are still stupid enough to believe in the Vocal Minority as the "real" fanbase of gaming:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VocalMinority

I would say that if i were someone who can bombard a mass quantity of people into believing whatever bullshit i want, i would use it ASAP.

And i am pretty sure that, in this cynical and decadent world, people who are corrupted by power WILL use that advantage.

There totally are people in positions of power that use that power to manipulate people. However, the manipulation is usually along the lines of trying to get people to buy their products or vote for their candidate, not trying to eliminate free thought.

I'm going to pull Occam's razor on this one. Assuming that their is a master plan to reduce free thought would involve assuming that corporations, especially in entertainment, are all working with each other to ensure that people have a reduced means of free expression, instead of just doing whatever will make them the most money.

Like I said, there's probably legitimate discussion to be had with the information of the article (like IGN bragging to advertisers about how they tailor ads specifically to a specific demographic), but focusing how it works into a "master plan" is just stupid conspiracy bullshit.

Occam's Razor is one of many tools for finding the best-sounding answers to a problem, not eliminating all the wrong answers. Sometimes there is complexity in life, plans have redundancy and fallbacks, and the simplest plan is too obvious to be discreet.

ohnoitsabear:

There totally are people in positions of power that use that power to manipulate people. However, the manipulation is usually along the lines of trying to get people to buy their products or vote for their candidate, not trying to eliminate free thought.

Eliminating free thought is JUST what one need when manipulating people into voting for someone and having them to buy your crap. Ignorant people cant make choices on their own, they need someone better in power and mentality to direct them.

If they get smart enough to dictate their own destinies by logic and reason that is freely available AND they can contact each other faster and globally thanks to the Internet, then it will suck for any dickhead with god complex, who cant tolerate the "low peasants" to actually challenge their power intellectually or in ANY way.

And even if you dont believe that eliminating free thought is their agenda, then consider that the elite will just use their power to just paint games as time wasters or just plain "violent shit" because they dominate the media, and the media NEEDS this kind of "controversy" to keep itself alive. Its like infiltrating someone into a religious group and then have the mole achieve position of power so they can screw over the image of that religion by doing actions that compromises the credibility of it, providing lots of controversy material for the media to "analyze" and disseminate to the four winds.

Nieroshai:
Occam's Razor is one of many tools for finding the best-sounding answers to a problem, not eliminating all the wrong answers. Sometimes there is complexity in life, plans have redundancy and fallbacks, and the simplest plan is too obvious to be discreet.

Actually the plan seems kite brilliant its simplicity. Since people are still to damn lazy to do proper research, the elite BOMBARD people from every angle until they believe it OR at least convince the people close to them, and the sheer pressure of belong to a group by having the same opinion would make them accept this "truth". Also know as "Bandwagon Fallacy".

DioWallachia:
snip

C'mon. It's obviously a Luciferian plot to take over and is connected with the supposed 2012 alien invasion of demonic beings which will make a demon Pope John Paul II slaughter countless millions in order to depopulate the world...

Just look at these obvious facts:




sigh...

I got to the point in the article where it said reading is nerdy, and I bailed.

Seriously Bra, I ain't no friggin nerd, so I won't reed yur shit no mores.

*cough

It's so amusing to find tin foil hat people trying to dis the popular people/games.

Pants on head, and all that jazz.

EDIT: Holy shit... I went back to the article and read more (must be nerd now me thinks) and I got to the next paragraph.

-'Reading and gaming are both too empowering to be promoted by the elite.'-

What fucking world do these people live on?

Also, how can people even remotely take anything in this blog seriously?

s69-5:

DioWallachia:
snip

C'mon. It's obviously a Luciferian plot to take over and is connected with the supposed 2012 alien invasion of demonic beings which will make a demon Pope John Paul II slaughter countless millions in order to depopulate the world...

sigh...

Its Modern Warfare, the epitome of stupid and lazy design. Most of his philosopycal bullshit that its in that game is just for decoration so the "harcore" guys feel like they are learning something.

In the other hand, given the fact even Movie Bob has to comment on the sexism scandal where one asshole berated a woman for being a gamer, i would say that NOT taking into account how deranged and stupid the "real" gamers are, would be kite an insult to our medium of choice.

Sober Thal:
I got to the point in the article where it said reading is nerdy, and I bailed.

Seriously Bra, I ain't no friggin nerd, so I won't reed yur shit no mores.

*cough

It's so amusing to find tin foil hat people trying to dis the popular people/games.

Pants on head, and all that jazz.

EDIT: Holy shit... I went back to the article and read more (must be nerd now me thinks) and I got to the next paragraph.

-'Reading and gaming are both too empowering to be promoted by the elite.'-

What fucking world do these people live on?

Also, how can people even remotely take anything in this blog seriously?

The reports about how the Metal Gear Solid 2 ending is the most brilliant post-modern piece in gaming may have something to do with it. Its a nice read that reminds me of the Errant Signal guy on Youtube and also reminds me of Spec Ops The Line on how it plays with the player expectations.

Feel free to explain in detail why is it absurd, of course. We dont want the party of 3-4 commenters here to feel alone in the discussion, would we?

I always did say that JRPGs are being targetted and discredited this gen.
Some of you may have noticed, in certain discussions I've had on this site, that I've said JRPGs are being targetted and discredited this gen. Could this fed to gamers be in relation to the bro-verload? There is almost nothing less bro-tatstic than JRPGs... Based on the many discussions I've had here, it certainly seems like many are drinking the koolaid.

s69-5:
I always did say that JRPGs are being targetted and discredited this gen.
Some of you may have noticed, in certain discussions I've had on this site, that I've said JRPGs are being targetted and discredited this gen. Could this fed to gamers be in relation to the bro-verload? There is almost nothing less bro-tatstic than JRPGs... Based on the many discussions I've had here, it certainly seems like many are drinking the koolaid.

I havent been exposed to enough JRPG to notice things other than having androgynous protagonist and the VEEEEEERY linear plot. Then again, a western game like Legacy Of Kain is linear but that doesnt make it a bad game (but it isnt a RPG)

At best, it could be that Western audiences are too familiar with the term RPG as the one presented in Dungeon & Dragons. Where the customization is faaaaaar more big than any JRPG (that i know) where you are forced to play as an already existing character.

Now, the reason of why such "conspiracy" could exist (to me) is because, unlike the overly complicated plan that will fail by its own mass, this one is............simple. Works on something that even if you can actually control it at all, one can still do it over and over until it eventually goes where you want to.

To quote Joseph Goebbels:

"The principle and which is quite true in itself and that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily." In short: "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed."

DioWallachia:

s69-5:
I always did say that JRPGs are being targetted and discredited this gen.
Some of you may have noticed, in certain discussions I've had on this site, that I've said JRPGs are being targetted and discredited this gen. Could this fed to gamers be in relation to the bro-verload? There is almost nothing less bro-tatstic than JRPGs... Based on the many discussions I've had here, it certainly seems like many are drinking the koolaid.

I havent been exposed to enough JRPG to notice things other than having androgynous protagonist and the VEEEEEERY linear plot. Then again, a western game like Legacy Of Kain is linear but that doesnt make it a bad game (but it isnt a RPG)

At best, it could be that Western audiences are too familiar with the term RPG as the one presented in Dungeon & Dragons. Where the customization is faaaaaar more big than any JRPG (that i know) where you are forced to play as an already existing character.

Now, the reason of why such "conspiracy" could exist (to me) is because, unlike the overly complicated plan that will fail by its own mass, this one is............simple. Works on something that even if you can actually control it at all, one can still do it over and over until it eventually goes where you want to.

To quote Joseph Goebbels:

"The principle and which is quite true in itself and that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily." In short: "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed."

Except that until this gen (and even then, only a year or two in) JRPGs were widely accepted (and called RPG - the distinction by way of nation is new).

Microsoft did try to gobble up exclusivity for many Japanese RPGs early on, in order to sell more 360s in Japan. MS fanboys tried to lord it over Sony fanboys heads like a shiny trophy. Unfortunately, the ploy failed. Sony retained its core audience. Then, oddly, RPGs made in Japan suddenly became "uncool"... hmmm...

I just want to say this

putting a bunch of random and "open to interpretation" shit together does NOT making somthing more "deep" or "artistic"

DioWallachia:
In fact, this could open a new set of questions like: How aware are the game developers of this? Is this kind of information that lead people to FORCE "Art" on an ending?? like say.....Mass Effect 3 ending?
.

beinng incomprehensible or obtuse does not make somthing "art" anymore than making it blue does

Vault101:
I just want to say this

putting a bunch of random and "open to interpretation" shit together does NOT making somthing more "deep" or "artistic"

DioWallachia:
In fact, this could open a new set of questions like: How aware are the game developers of this? Is this kind of information that lead people to FORCE "Art" on an ending?? like say.....Mass Effect 3 ending?
.

beinng incomprehensible or obtuse does not make somthing "art" anymore than making it blue does

I know, but my question is how can the pressure of making your medium be relevant at ALL COST, can fuck up the minds of the artist?

It clear that even Films had the same short comings as Videogames as an "Art" form back a century ago, and i am sure that the people back then also bitched about:
"BUAAAAAAAAAAHHH, why cant I be a writer of a novel? instead all i can do is make scripts for some guy called....whats his name? Charl...Charles Chaplin?? Who cares?? MY LIFE IS IN RUINS!!"

Just like today's: "WHY THIS IS HAPPENING TO MEEEEEEEE? i wanted to work in Hollywood and now all i can do is just make scripts for videogames and crap. Who cares if it is a new medium that needs MY UNDENIABLE TALENT in writing?? My life sucks"

But is there something that we are missing that makes the "games not being art" more painful? Maybe is the fact that we are at the apex of technology and communication and we STILL haven't made a good game proper as an art form?

I disagree on that, of course. Having examples like Spec Ops: The Line, The Stanley Parable, Journey and Silent Hill 2 should qualify just fine.

But what if..??

DioWallachia:
I know, but my question is how can the pressure of making your medium be relevant at ALL COST, can fuck up the minds of the artist?

It clear that even Films had the same short comings as Videogames as an "Art" form back a century ago, and i am sure that the people back then also bitched about:
"BUAAAAAAAAAAHHH, why cant I be a writer of a novel? instead all i can do is make scripts for some guy called....whats his name? Charl...Charles Chaplin?? Who cares?? MY LIFE IS IN RUINS!!"

Just like today's: "WHY THIS IS HAPPENING TO MEEEEEEEE? i wanted to work in Hollywood and now all i can do is just make scripts for videogames and crap. Who cares if it is a new medium that needs MY UNDENIABLE TALENT in writing?? My life sucks"

But is there something that we are missing that makes the "games not being art" more painful? Maybe is the fact that we are at the apex of technology and communication and we STILL haven't made a good game proper as an art form?

I disagree on that, of course. Having examples like Spec Ops: The Line, The Stanley Parable, Journey and Silent Hill 2 should qualify just fine.

But what if..??

not sure I can answer that question...

I will say though that I find it kind of sad even people working in the biz themselfs may even think its a "lesser" medium.....somtimes thise does show

and its also disconcerting when gamers themself show this attitude "most game stoys/writng sucks, "seriously...if you want to tell a story don't bother with videogames" <-I feel thats part of the problem

you don't try you don't get anywhere

Vault101:

not sure I can answer that question...

I will say though that I find it kind of sad even people working in the biz themselfs may even think its a "lesser" medium.....somtimes thise does show

and its also disconcerting when gamers themself show this attitude "most game stoys/writng sucks, "seriously...if you want to tell a story don't bother with videogames" <-I feel thats part of the problem

you don't try you don't get anywhere

I really dont want to have the lvls of fatalism presented in games like Legacy Of Kain (with predestination an such) but to think that people TODAY still make the same mistakes as before, learning from their mistakes to repeat them with precision, is quite depressing.
I mean, we have the fucking Internet to check that out now, are the writers really THAT lazy and self absorbed that they actually believe they are the ONLY people that exist that they have to deal with such responsibility?

In the other hand, i can understand why the medium hasn't advanced at ALL. Here is it....Pride. Pride over the player and other game developers.

*/For your reading pleasure, pretend you heard the voice of Tony Jay in the roll of the most villainous, smug bastard you could ever imagine, to properly immerse into the mind of a writer. Here is a video if you need to properly visualize the relation between player and writer/*

"Aaaaaaaah, the player, that insignificant creature that exist to derail my carefully crafted creation. The mere though of having this.....filthy brute, exploring my world is unbearable. Always asking questions that doesn't matter, paying attention to the shiny lights like the flies they are and not appreciating the dialog that even Shakespeare will be jealous off. If only i could make them go in a linear path where there is nothing else to look they will pay attention to my grandiose script, if only.....wait a second..........cutscenes!! yeeeees, they will do just fine."

(after the game is finished)

"OH! there you are my dear player. I must inform you that your choices in this game have been severely diminished, for you own good of course, i hope that you understand. See, we dont want to waste each other time and there are many many choices that you wouldn't be able to bear in your hearth, for them are just too complex to understand. But fear not, i shall guide you in your journey and we will work together.......as long as you.....trust ME....as your friend."

The pride over other developers can be represented by the fact that, since this is a new medium, one wants to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that YOUR GAME is the one that everyone is going to look up to, and will be accomplished by screaming LOUDER than anyone on the field.

Case in point:

Even the wiki mentions that Mass Effect was "inspired" by films like Aliens, Star Wars, Star Trek: The Wrath Of Khan and Starship Troopers. But no games mentioned, and why would they? why say that someone may have done the same as them? don't want to let the people know that they ripped off the plot of Star Control?
Hell, lets not even mention the fact that Planescape: Torment uses the same engine as Baldur's Gate (a game by Bioware) and that you can solve most of your problem by talking, even the final boss.

So you see, there IS plenty of material to work candidates for "games as art", they are just too busy killing each other to care. And lets not forget that games are "toys" to the populace, and for that reason games don't have the privilege of being preserved properly just like the "Epic Of Gilgamesh" that is thousands years old. Games that are not even 20 years old, however, dont have that luxury.

DioWallachia:

So you see, there IS plenty of material to work candidates for "games as art", they are just too busy killing each other to care. And lets not forget that games are "toys" to the populace, and for that reason games don't have the privilege of being preserved properly just like the "Epic Of Gilgamesh" that is thousands years old. Games that are not even 20 years old, however, dont have that luxury.

I get what your saying, but I cant say I agree 100%

mainly in that I have no problem with linearity or cutscenes, if the creator of the game wants to take me on a journey or tell me a story then I'm more than happy to comply, as Ive said before I don't like applying blanket statments to games in terms of what techniquies they use, whatever works

I wouldnt complain if things played out linerally in Mass Effect IF that was the kind of game they claimed it was...it wasnt..it was a game that put emphasis on choices, and if you put emphasis on choiced then you better be able to deliver..which unfortunatly they did not

as for cutscenes...as I said they are not inherintly bad,being a huge mass effect fan, I loved the great sense of adventure such as the first time we dock in the citadel or when talking to my crew member...again I actually like the cinematic aproach Bioware has. Cutscenes work because they show us emotion....somthing a game like Fallout:new vegas may have benefitted from IMO

my point being through the use of camera angles and focus the conversations in Mass Effect became much more engaging

that said there have been two cases that did make me want to kill somone Yakuza and Vanqusish (both japnease and from SEGA...hmmm) I mean they jsut went on...and on....and on...vanquish was worse because THIS IS NOT TELLING ME ANYTHING I NEED TO KNOW it was just explosions and fighting..and it just went on...and on...and on..and FUCK YOU GAME!! FUCK YOU WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO MEEEE!!!??? <- but I have hardly played any games that got that bad

I also I think I get what you are saying with the "draw inspriation" thing but I don't agree that "games should only draw inpiration from agmes" (which I know you might not have meant that) its great to draw inspiration from anywhere and anything...and a classic sci fi space opera was exactly what they wanted mass effect to be and was what they delivered

Vault101:

...as for cutscenes...as I said they are not inherintly bad,being a huge mass effect fan, I loved the great sense of adventure such as the first time we dock in the citadel or when talking to my crew member...again I actually like the cinematic aproach Bioware has. Cutscenes work because they show us emotion....somthing a game like Fallout:new vegas may have benefitted from IMO

my point being through the use of camera angles and focus the conversations in Mass Effect became much more engaging

I also I think I get what you are saying with the "draw inspriation" thing but I don't agree that "games should only draw inpiration from agmes" (which I know you might not have meant that) its great to draw inspiration from anywhere and anything...and a classic sci fi space opera was exactly what they wanted mass effect to be and was what they delivered

Being inspired by anything you want is not a bad thing, the problem arises when the only thing people seems inspired is films rather than games, implies that games had nothing to offer or weren't just groundbreaking in the minds of the authors. We know that this isnt truth, but then again, if the developers start quoting other games then that would be shining the spotlight over the heads of your opponent in the "business", know what i mean?

Ditto for cutscenes. Not bad on their own if that is the artistic choice, but isn't AUDIENCE INTERACTIVITY what makes games be games in the first place?

To put that in perspective, Citizen Kane is "The Best Movie of All Time" not for his plot (is a simple plot) but for how is told. To quote the infamous "games are not art" Roger Ebert "Is not what the story is about, but HOW is about". CK managed to use not only several techniques that were previously used in several movies but ALSO some unique visuals for its time. And the critics, instead of just listing a bunch of separate movies, they just pointed out at this one since it already had everything plus some original visuals on his own. In the end that is what films are about, to tell a story rich in visuals IS the most triumphant example that Cinema can offer as an Art form.

So what would be the Most Triumphant example for games? one that not only does the visuals as Cinema but ALSO is fully interactive with its audience, shame that the second one gets ignored quite often. Now dont get me wrong, one could do a movie that is just a text wall crawling over the screen for 2 hours, and may possibly be the BEST STORY EVER WRITTEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE, but just plain text is not using the medium at his full potential, to the point that one wonders why just not make a book out of it instead of a movie.

My example of wall of text would be Planescape: Torment. And well written wall of text mind you, with many choices for the players that game developers BOAST their games have, but a wall none less.

 

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