Understanding Dark Souls difficulty

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT
 

zinho73:

Twilight_guy:
Hol dona second, I have to go tell a kid with sub-standard small motor skills that the reason he can't play is because he's just not thinking it out correctly and not because his hands are physically incapable of preforming the motions. Then I think I'll tell the guy without legs that he just needs to try harder at walking. Oh what's that you say, special case? Not really, there are lots of situations where a persons apparent skill in a game varies greatly and people experience different levels of difficulty. This is just the most extreme case. Trying to universalize everyone's ability to do something is both idiotic and naive.

Also, how does adding an easy mode determent your experience. You can go play the harder mode and someone else can play the easy mode. Unless your physically incapable of preventing yourself from playing the easy mode I don't see how this hurts you. Don't give me any bullcrap about how there 'not experiencing the true game,' everyone has the right to play the game in their own way and not have some asshole dictate how they play and say they're doing it wrong.

I'm sick of people going at this like a religious crusade. I'm sick of overblown egos and fetishized worship of make-believe ideals. The people whoa argue this thing piss me off.

The extreme case does not apply as it is a case of accessibility and not difficulty and is a much larger problem with much more difficult solutions (which must be addressed but it is another discussion altogether).

And the theme of the game does not suit kids, so the game is not for everyone.

You do not have the right to play the game the way you want to. You WANT to play the game in a certain way and are frustrated because you are not able to. You want the game to conform to your limitations.

Although the frustration is understandable, it is very narrow minded to think that all games must be playable by everyone. Not all books are the same, some are incredible difficult to read and understand. Not all movies are the same, not all plays are the same. There are variations in theme, vocabulary and several degrees of understanding. If we treat games the same way, the industry can only grow. We will have blockbusters and also deeper experiences, meant to be enjoyable in a certain way, that might not please you but might make push certain genres forward and offer different experiences.

Also: It is not a matter of being incapable of not using the less difficult setting. I would use the easier setting simply because I didn't understand the game on its beginning, I would not even be aware that I would be denying myself a much more rewarding and interesting experience.

It is OK if ONE game doesn't need to submit to the industry standards because it is good enough to not need them in the first place to sell well and build a name of its own.

The game is far from perfect, but it is revolutionary and part of makes it stand out from the crowd is the difficulty integrated in its systems. And by difficulty I mean the several levels of it: easy and hard (as I said, the game can be much more easy than various other games in easy mode if you know what you are doing - it doesn't need a dedicated button that tells you that things are easy, it just requires that you think about what you are doing).

Let me ask you: how many "difficult" games can be completed by a man with arthritis? Let me save you the work: not many, not even a lot of "easy" ones. And I know at least two cases of people with severe limitations that have completed the game, taking their time and progressing slowly.

The problem of the game is not the difficulty. It is that the game takes time to sink in and "click". People talking about difficulty are trying to shove a square solution into a rounded hole.

Okay, I see your point. Now address the issue about how does making an easy difficulty hurt the fans, why the fans are suddenly upset that the developer might be adding this of their own free will to the point where they may be covering up indications of them making the decision to add an easy mode, and the zealotry that the fans are showing. It's really the fans that are bugging me over how upset they got over even a slight indication of adding an easy game-play mode.

Twilight_guy:

zinho73:

Twilight_guy:
Hol dona second, I have to go tell a kid with sub-standard small motor skills that the reason he can't play is because he's just not thinking it out correctly and not because his hands are physically incapable of preforming the motions. Then I think I'll tell the guy without legs that he just needs to try harder at walking. Oh what's that you say, special case? Not really, there are lots of situations where a persons apparent skill in a game varies greatly and people experience different levels of difficulty. This is just the most extreme case. Trying to universalize everyone's ability to do something is both idiotic and naive.

Also, how does adding an easy mode determent your experience. You can go play the harder mode and someone else can play the easy mode. Unless your physically incapable of preventing yourself from playing the easy mode I don't see how this hurts you. Don't give me any bullcrap about how there 'not experiencing the true game,' everyone has the right to play the game in their own way and not have some asshole dictate how they play and say they're doing it wrong.

I'm sick of people going at this like a religious crusade. I'm sick of overblown egos and fetishized worship of make-believe ideals. The people whoa argue this thing piss me off.

The extreme case does not apply as it is a case of accessibility and not difficulty and is a much larger problem with much more difficult solutions (which must be addressed but it is another discussion altogether).

And the theme of the game does not suit kids, so the game is not for everyone.

You do not have the right to play the game the way you want to. You WANT to play the game in a certain way and are frustrated because you are not able to. You want the game to conform to your limitations.

Although the frustration is understandable, it is very narrow minded to think that all games must be playable by everyone. Not all books are the same, some are incredible difficult to read and understand. Not all movies are the same, not all plays are the same. There are variations in theme, vocabulary and several degrees of understanding. If we treat games the same way, the industry can only grow. We will have blockbusters and also deeper experiences, meant to be enjoyable in a certain way, that might not please you but might make push certain genres forward and offer different experiences.

Also: It is not a matter of being incapable of not using the less difficult setting. I would use the easier setting simply because I didn't understand the game on its beginning, I would not even be aware that I would be denying myself a much more rewarding and interesting experience.

It is OK if ONE game doesn't need to submit to the industry standards because it is good enough to not need them in the first place to sell well and build a name of its own.

The game is far from perfect, but it is revolutionary and part of makes it stand out from the crowd is the difficulty integrated in its systems. And by difficulty I mean the several levels of it: easy and hard (as I said, the game can be much more easy than various other games in easy mode if you know what you are doing - it doesn't need a dedicated button that tells you that things are easy, it just requires that you think about what you are doing).

Let me ask you: how many "difficult" games can be completed by a man with arthritis? Let me save you the work: not many, not even a lot of "easy" ones. And I know at least two cases of people with severe limitations that have completed the game, taking their time and progressing slowly.

The problem of the game is not the difficulty. It is that the game takes time to sink in and "click". People talking about difficulty are trying to shove a square solution into a rounded hole.

Okay, I see your point. Now address the issue about how does making an easy difficulty hurt the fans, why the fans are suddenly upset that the developer might be adding this of their own free will to the point where they may be covering up indications of them making the decision to add an easy mode, and the zealotry that the fans are showing. It's really the fans that are bugging me over how upset they got over even a slight indication of adding an easy game-play mode.

I could address that point but EpicNameBro addressed it far better then I can. I suggest you watch the following video and think about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b91BWzLigs

zinho73:

Sober Thal:

Dansen:

I want lots of people to enjoy and play the game.

You've only skimmed the surface of the game, it only gets easier, but if you don't enjoy it then I guess you shouldn't waste your time.

I want to enjoy it, and I think I would have more, if it had an easier mode.

I don't get why 'fans' here don't understand that. Is it so alien to you that people could get frustrated by the game? Sounds like you are seriously telling yourself lies here. (not trying to sound mean. I'll talk about this more if ya want)

I really do understand the wanting for an easy mode. I simply don't think that the game requires it to be more easy and accessible.

I am a below average gamer and I can play the thing just fine as it is. Taking my time at some moments (and dying) but breezing through other areas, running around naked and two-handing a dagger.

In any case, I know it is not your experience with it and I respect that. I do not think you have to agree with me :D. Your point of view contributes to the discussion. A lot.

What I really don't get it is people defending that ALL games need to have an easy option and no game can't be simply difficult.

Yeah. It's tough to think of many other games that I want an easier (not necessarily easy) mode for. Hell, the whole reason I wanted to play this series, one that is kinda known for not having an in-depth plot, was to test my skills. I get the whole 'Souls Club' thing. I also get that I will never have the patience to finish any Megaman game, or a.... what are they called... the crazy bullet hell thingy type games.

The only reason I am chiming in on these threads, besides calling out the snobs (you are not one) is that I wanted more from the game, but wasn't prepared to give more. Call it a confession, but it's more of a plea, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh yeah, I guess if I was someone who was okay with watching a game on youtube, I would be happier? Maybe? But I won't lower myself to that level either ; )

ALL games do NOT need to be easier. I guess this series is the line in the sand. I just wish I was on the other side, perhaps.

Burst6:

Sober Thal:

I want to enjoy it, and I think I would have more, if it had an easier mode.

I don't get why 'fans' here don't understand that. Is it so alien to you that people could get frustrated by the game? Sounds like you are seriously telling yourself lies here. (not trying to sound mean. I'll talk about this more if ya want)

It's not alien that you get frustrated. It sounds wrong that you want the game changed because you can't get over your frustration. The gargoyles are very tough to beat and even souls series veterans have trouble with them, but they're beatable. In fact they're downright easy if you summon solaire and lautrec to help you out.

If you really want to finish it go back and do so. Look up information on the internet if you're really stuck. Yeah you get frustrated but that just means you should try different things or try harder.

The reason most of us fans don't want an easy mode is because it will be horrible. The game revolves around the difficulty, and making an easy mode will cost the developer a lot of money. Not only for developing the easy mode, but the servers too. You can't put easy and hard mode player on the same server because people already troll the hell out of each other in the current game, in fact it's sort of encouraged. They would have to buy twice as many servers and pay for their upkeep. All for something that will most likely suck.

Finally! A reasonable(ish) answer!

Thank you for bearing with me on this one.

The cost of servers and the cost for changing the code, for an easier mode, is an angle I never heard, nor thought of. Thanks for that!

I can kinda see why people wouldn't/can't want that. It still doesn't excuse the snobbery and hatred, but hell... nothing really can.

Thanks for alleviating some of my ignorance here.

Cheers!

Windcaler:

Twilight_guy:

zinho73:

The extreme case does not apply as it is a case of accessibility and not difficulty and is a much larger problem with much more difficult solutions (which must be addressed but it is another discussion altogether).

And the theme of the game does not suit kids, so the game is not for everyone.

You do not have the right to play the game the way you want to. You WANT to play the game in a certain way and are frustrated because you are not able to. You want the game to conform to your limitations.

Although the frustration is understandable, it is very narrow minded to think that all games must be playable by everyone. Not all books are the same, some are incredible difficult to read and understand. Not all movies are the same, not all plays are the same. There are variations in theme, vocabulary and several degrees of understanding. If we treat games the same way, the industry can only grow. We will have blockbusters and also deeper experiences, meant to be enjoyable in a certain way, that might not please you but might make push certain genres forward and offer different experiences.

Also: It is not a matter of being incapable of not using the less difficult setting. I would use the easier setting simply because I didn't understand the game on its beginning, I would not even be aware that I would be denying myself a much more rewarding and interesting experience.

It is OK if ONE game doesn't need to submit to the industry standards because it is good enough to not need them in the first place to sell well and build a name of its own.

The game is far from perfect, but it is revolutionary and part of makes it stand out from the crowd is the difficulty integrated in its systems. And by difficulty I mean the several levels of it: easy and hard (as I said, the game can be much more easy than various other games in easy mode if you know what you are doing - it doesn't need a dedicated button that tells you that things are easy, it just requires that you think about what you are doing).

Let me ask you: how many "difficult" games can be completed by a man with arthritis? Let me save you the work: not many, not even a lot of "easy" ones. And I know at least two cases of people with severe limitations that have completed the game, taking their time and progressing slowly.

The problem of the game is not the difficulty. It is that the game takes time to sink in and "click". People talking about difficulty are trying to shove a square solution into a rounded hole.

Okay, I see your point. Now address the issue about how does making an easy difficulty hurt the fans, why the fans are suddenly upset that the developer might be adding this of their own free will to the point where they may be covering up indications of them making the decision to add an easy mode, and the zealotry that the fans are showing. It's really the fans that are bugging me over how upset they got over even a slight indication of adding an easy game-play mode.

I could address that point but EpicNameBro addressed it far better then I can. I suggest you watch the following video and think about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b91BWzLigs

The moment you refer me to a video instead of stating your own opinions or at least putting them in your own words, you've given up something far more precious then an argument. I'll watch it when I can, (my internet connect is a bit too slow right now) but you've referred me to argue with some other person rather then stating your own opinion or citing it. I don't think you realize the implications of letting others state your thoughts, even in an instance as harmless as this.

Windcaler:

Twilight_guy:

zinho73:

The extreme case does not apply as it is a case of accessibility and not difficulty and is a much larger problem with much more difficult solutions (which must be addressed but it is another discussion altogether).

And the theme of the game does not suit kids, so the game is not for everyone.

You do not have the right to play the game the way you want to. You WANT to play the game in a certain way and are frustrated because you are not able to. You want the game to conform to your limitations.

Although the frustration is understandable, it is very narrow minded to think that all games must be playable by everyone. Not all books are the same, some are incredible difficult to read and understand. Not all movies are the same, not all plays are the same. There are variations in theme, vocabulary and several degrees of understanding. If we treat games the same way, the industry can only grow. We will have blockbusters and also deeper experiences, meant to be enjoyable in a certain way, that might not please you but might make push certain genres forward and offer different experiences.

Also: It is not a matter of being incapable of not using the less difficult setting. I would use the easier setting simply because I didn't understand the game on its beginning, I would not even be aware that I would be denying myself a much more rewarding and interesting experience.

It is OK if ONE game doesn't need to submit to the industry standards because it is good enough to not need them in the first place to sell well and build a name of its own.

The game is far from perfect, but it is revolutionary and part of makes it stand out from the crowd is the difficulty integrated in its systems. And by difficulty I mean the several levels of it: easy and hard (as I said, the game can be much more easy than various other games in easy mode if you know what you are doing - it doesn't need a dedicated button that tells you that things are easy, it just requires that you think about what you are doing).

Let me ask you: how many "difficult" games can be completed by a man with arthritis? Let me save you the work: not many, not even a lot of "easy" ones. And I know at least two cases of people with severe limitations that have completed the game, taking their time and progressing slowly.

The problem of the game is not the difficulty. It is that the game takes time to sink in and "click". People talking about difficulty are trying to shove a square solution into a rounded hole.

Okay, I see your point. Now address the issue about how does making an easy difficulty hurt the fans, why the fans are suddenly upset that the developer might be adding this of their own free will to the point where they may be covering up indications of them making the decision to add an easy mode, and the zealotry that the fans are showing. It's really the fans that are bugging me over how upset they got over even a slight indication of adding an easy game-play mode.

I could address that point but EpicNameBro addressed it far better then I can. I suggest you watch the following video and think about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b91BWzLigs

And also:

- costs.
- development time.
- since its not the real problem people that do not like the game will still not like it.
- Trying to do it might lead to weird game design choices. With an easy mode, From Soft might not see the need to include easy ways to defeat the bosses, literally splitting the game in two. Because, don't get me wrong, there are A LOT of easy stuff to do in the game already.
- Challenges and secrets watermark (yeah, the club part)

It just seems like a gigantic waste of time. When sticking to their philosophy, From Soft evolved a lot from Demon's souls to Dark Souls (yeah, some people like the first one better, I know, but let's not get into that :D).

The game is awfully complex as it is and I would rather see the developer refining their craft instead of having to conform to the norm.

In any case, wars on the internet have started for less. And there are a lot of hotheads on the other side of the argument too - internet raging is hardly something exclusive.

Just to clarify, weather it is true or not, Namco have gone on the record to say that the desire of the developer to make an easier mode was mistranslated.

I'm not with a pitchfork and torches in hand and maybe From Soft can pull something out of their hats that appeal to everyone. I just think it is wishful thinking and certainly not something that the game needs, as some game journalists and bloggers are screaming to the four winds.

Another thing the some people do not understand about the soul series is that dying is not just a measure of failure. Dying in those games is a game mechanism that can even be used in your favor in some situations.

Oh, man, I'm itching to play it. I just remember that point because I was planning a suicide run to get me some goodies in a low level character...

[quote="Twilight_guy" post="9.387764.15518767]*sniped*[/quote]

If you really want my opinion in my own words Ill give it to you but it wont be as cut and dry as ENB put it. The reason why easy mode entering a game effects those who wont use it are many. Chief among them is the minimalistic style that the game is presented in. You dont get anything for free in Dark souls, you have to work for it and an easy mode is a mode thats built to take away the challenge of the game and garantee anyone can clear it. An easy mode goes against the very core mechanic of games like Dark souls, that mechanic being the chance to fail. Im not talking failure as in dying in the game or getting frustrated. The only true failure to dark souls is giving up. Putting it down and never playing it again is the only true and lasting failure in the game.

Adding an easy mode to the game cheapens it for the people who could make the cut and beat dark souls as it is now. We took our lumps, we probably all had thrown a controller or two but eventually we all adapted. We planned, we geared up, we leveled, we adapted our strategies, and we used our brains to overcome the challenges. What we never did was fail. Now dont take that as some snobbish elitism because its not. I want everyone to play dark souls and beat it but not by inadvertantly cheapening my experience and most importantly my accomplishments through an easy mode. I want them to beat it just like I did, by overcoming the same challenges I did. Rather then the game being made easier and lowering my achievments I want them to raise themselves up so they can stand on the same level and say, with pride: I beat dark souls!

zinho73:
Why some people climb mountains? It is a mix of a personal challenge, the joy of the sport itself and the knowledge that not everyone can do it. That's the Dark Souls experience.

And yet, you can get all those things even if someone is able to drive to the top from the other side.

I still don't get why it matters to anyone how someone else is playing the game.

*currently stuck in Tomb of the Giants* I desperately need a mini map. That place is literal hell.

But yes, no game satisfies me more than conquering a huge milestone in Dark Souls.

Burst6:
Look up information on the internet if you're really stuck.

This is what confuses me. I see complaints that an easy mode cheapens the experience or holds your hand, then I see people say "go look on the internet" and you specifically say with the right strategy, (X) is easy.

I don't get why it's okay to be spoonfed information from the internet if easy mode is bad. You're promoting assistance. You're promoting the secrets and tactics of the game be given away.

Zachary Amaranth:

zinho73:
Why some people climb mountains? It is a mix of a personal challenge, the joy of the sport itself and the knowledge that not everyone can do it. That's the Dark Souls experience.

And yet, you can get all those things even if someone is able to drive to the top from the other side.

I still don't get why it matters to anyone how someone else is playing the game.

It's cause the simple thought of accessibility to others will invalidate their status as "hardcore" gamers and they'd lose the ability to look down on "casuals" the moment the game gets an easy mode.

OP: First off, Dark Souls isn't hard. Its tedious, bland, and a little grindy, but its certainly not hard.

Some of you guys might want the tediousness of the game, and that's fine. But you might want to think that there are others that want to play the game without the tediousness it currently possesses, and the option of removing that tediousness is just that, an option, you don't have to take it, but there are certainly others that will. There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, it's more beneficial for the developers to do that since it'd make the game more accessible due to the current state of the market. It could increase the number of customers from just a small niche of circle-jerking fanboys to a lot more.

If they put in the OPTION to remove the difficulty, hell they could make easy mode perma-undead mode, and just remove it for story purposes when required to save for server issues.

Also, those 4 skills you have placed at the original post, every single person who plays fighting games and/or ARTSs a lot have those.

kman123:
*currently stuck in Tomb of the Giants* I desperately need a mini map. That place is literal hell.

But yes, no game satisfies me more than conquering a huge milestone in Dark Souls.

You are at the single worst place to go before you get the warp feature. I don't wish actually having to climb out of there on anyone.

If you didnt use any bonfire in there yet you could always homeward bone out though.

Ryotknife:

zinho73:
Also to ryotknife:

The combat system is not based on block and a single attack. You can rely on block and a single attack, but you will be much more efficient if you adapt to the situation using:
- parries
- backstabbing
- magic
- dodges
- dual wielding
- Two-handing
- drop attacks
- long range
- buffs
- dung pies
- running attacks

There are many ways to solve any problem and fight (including summoning powerful allies and doing nothing) but the game won't punish you too much if you stick to your preferences - you can complete the game using your initial equipment set and at level 1. Or you can experiment and do things in a varied way.

parry is still a block, just a bit harder to use
backstabbing, dual wielding, two-handing, and running attacks are all still basic attacks.

even skyrims combat was more fun, and combat wasnt even a major part of that game. even the original megaman had a more interesting combat than dark souls.

farming red eye knights was about the funnest thing i did in demon souls.

You are massively over simplifying the combat. Even if you did have only basic attack and block I'd put it leagues over Skyrim's combat. Through the game I only used dodge, attack, backstab and blocking and found that was enough for my playstyle. One big thing you're missing is how much the game relies on positioning and timing. Whenever I was fighting a boss I wouldn't just be running up to them and spamming attack and block. I'd be consciously keeping myself out of their range, watching their attacks so I can decide when I'd be able to hit them without getting hit myself and timing my attacks and dodges so that I can get into a safe position while waiting for my next opportunity.

If anything I liked the simplicity of the combat, you had a limited amount of tools and you had to decide how to use them best to get through. Like the OP said you need to be constantly thinking each time you find a new enemy or situation. In Skyrim the only time I ever had to think was with stealth, and even then it wasn't much.

OT: I wouldn't necessarily want an easy mode, because I agree with most of the people here, the difficulty definitely was a huge part of the experience. I would have played a very different game without it. What I would have liked though was a bit less redundancy. There were bosses where I would spend almost an hour just running back and forth to them before I'd beat them. It's irritating when it takes you five minutes to get to a boss and end up dying in the first 30 seconds. And not the good kind of "I'm going to beat this" irritating, the "This is getting annoying, I'm going to do something else kind." What would be nice is a little more strategically placed bonfires to cut out repetitive situations like that.

lapan:

kman123:
*currently stuck in Tomb of the Giants* I desperately need a mini map. That place is literal hell.

But yes, no game satisfies me more than conquering a huge milestone in Dark Souls.

You are at the single worst place to go before you get the warp feature. I don't wish actually having to climb out of there on anyone.

If you didnt use any bonfire in there yet you could always homeward bone out though.

I've got the Lordvessel, but I'm struggling hardcore to get to Nito, even with the skull lantern.

kman123:

lapan:

kman123:
*currently stuck in Tomb of the Giants* I desperately need a mini map. That place is literal hell.

But yes, no game satisfies me more than conquering a huge milestone in Dark Souls.

You are at the single worst place to go before you get the warp feature. I don't wish actually having to climb out of there on anyone.

If you didnt use any bonfire in there yet you could always homeward bone out though.

I've got the Lordvessel, but I'm struggling hardcore to get to Nito, even with the skull lantern.

You can rush past most skeletons once you know their position. I wouldnt recommend actually fighting them though because against those skeletondogs even i have problems. One mistake against them usually ends up with me being dead :/

Burst6:
I don't understand this argument. You don't have to fight all the enemies again. If you go through and learn where everything is, open all the door and shortcuts, and try to take out all the enemies that stay dead, you can just sprint past everything. That's what i do.

But that just means the lack of save point introduces meaningless backtracking. In any case, it becomes a waste of time. Instead, the game should just have a bonfire close to every boss. When you face a boss, you want to keep fighting it and learn the strategy to beating. Having to run/fight through the same bunch of enemies doesn't really add anything of value - especially if you loose health on the way because you don't want to spend more time than necessary getting back to the boss.

Other than this though, Dark Souls is an amazing game.

Kimozabi:

Burst6:
I don't understand this argument. You don't have to fight all the enemies again. If you go through and learn where everything is, open all the door and shortcuts, and try to take out all the enemies that stay dead, you can just sprint past everything. That's what i do.

But that just means the lack of save point introduces meaningless backtracking. In any case, it becomes a waste of time. Instead, the game should just have a bonfire close to every boss. When you face a boss, you want to keep fighting it and learn the strategy to beating. Having to run/fight through the same bunch of enemies doesn't really add anything of value - especially if you loose health on the way because you don't want to spend more time than necessary getting back to the boss.

Other than this though, Dark Souls is an amazing game.

More often than not you can simply rush past 90% of the enemies at the last bonfire from the boss. Often i would even recommend it.

Zachary Amaranth:

Burst6:
Look up information on the internet if you're really stuck.

This is what confuses me. I see complaints that an easy mode cheapens the experience or holds your hand, then I see people say "go look on the internet" and you specifically say with the right strategy, (X) is easy.

I don't get why it's okay to be spoonfed information from the internet if easy mode is bad. You're promoting assistance. You're promoting the secrets and tactics of the game be given away.

From my perspective, I agree that an easy mode cheapens the experiences and acomplishments of the game but I also agree that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. The reason why I think its ok to ask for tips or look things up is it offers assistance in the form of knowledge but it still requires a person to rise to the challenge. In this way a mode isnt being added to the game where everyone is expected to beat it, instead each individual is better armed for the encounters. Knowledge is just another weapon in the players arsenal and they have to make use of it to win

Zachary Amaranth:

Burst6:
Look up information on the internet if you're really stuck.

This is what confuses me. I see complaints that an easy mode cheapens the experience or holds your hand, then I see people say "go look on the internet" and you specifically say with the right strategy, (X) is easy.

I don't get why it's okay to be spoonfed information from the internet if easy mode is bad. You're promoting assistance. You're promoting the secrets and tactics of the game be given away.

Most of the information people look up online regarding the game is acquiring a special weapon or piece of armor; Something that requires you to offer up a Boss soul.

Apart from one Boss, there's no information that will make the game easier. You're still gonna have to muscle your way through the Bosses to get the souls that grant you stronger equipment. And even with the right strategy, which one might have looked up online, you still have to stay on your toes and keep a close eye on your enemy, yourself, and your surroundings.

The reason an easy mode would cheapen the experience is because the difficulty and the setting go hand in hand. You accept the difficulty and frustration because the setting is one of nihilism, hopelessness, and immeasurable odds. And this sensation that the setting is infused with only works because of the difficulty. By lowering the difficulty you would be lowering the believability and sincerity of the setting, because the difficulty is the main tool by which the setting communicates with you, since there's hardly any dialoge or exposition.

Zachary Amaranth:

zinho73:
Why some people climb mountains? It is a mix of a personal challenge, the joy of the sport itself and the knowledge that not everyone can do it. That's the Dark Souls experience.

And yet, you can get all those things even if someone is able to drive to the top from the other side.

I still don't get why it matters to anyone how someone else is playing the game.

Well, I can only redirect you to my reply to the same question a few posts above. you might not agree with the reasons, but they are there.

Windcaler:

Zachary Amaranth:

Burst6:
Look up information on the internet if you're really stuck.

This is what confuses me. I see complaints that an easy mode cheapens the experience or holds your hand, then I see people say "go look on the internet" and you specifically say with the right strategy, (X) is easy.

I don't get why it's okay to be spoonfed information from the internet if easy mode is bad. You're promoting assistance. You're promoting the secrets and tactics of the game be given away.

From my perspective, I agree that an easy mode cheapens the experiences and acomplishments of the game but I also agree that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. The reason why I think its ok to ask for tips or look things up is it offers assistance in the form of knowledge but it still requires a person to rise to the challenge. In this way a mode isnt being added to the game where everyone is expected to beat it, instead each individual is better armed for the encounters. Knowledge is just another weapon in the players arsenal and they have to make use of it to win

Very well explained. Dark Souls manages to achieve a sense of community that few games have. It is way more interesting to help each other to beat the odds.

You may argue that you prefer to beat the odds alone in an easier setting and that's fine, but there's no denying that what Dark Souls provide is different and fans are willing to preserve that difference as the easy button can be found in practically every other game around.

lapan:

kman123:

lapan:

You are at the single worst place to go before you get the warp feature. I don't wish actually having to climb out of there on anyone.

If you didnt use any bonfire in there yet you could always homeward bone out though.

I've got the Lordvessel, but I'm struggling hardcore to get to Nito, even with the skull lantern.

You can rush past most skeletons once you know their position. I wouldnt recommend actually fighting them though because against those skeletondogs even i have problems. One mistake against them usually ends up with me being dead :/

Get the light miracle or the maggot.

Kimozabi:

But that just means the lack of save point introduces meaningless backtracking. In any case, it becomes a waste of time. Instead, the game should just have a bonfire close to every boss. When you face a boss, you want to keep fighting it and learn the strategy to beating. Having to run/fight through the same bunch of enemies doesn't really add anything of value - especially if you loose health on the way because you don't want to spend more time than necessary getting back to the boss.

Other than this though, Dark Souls is an amazing game.

It's not meaningless. It's supposed to be a punishment for dying that has a trick to alleviate most of it. An aspect of the game is dying and being punished for it. It's not really much of a punishment if you appear right at the entrance of the boss.

Zachary Amaranth:

This is what confuses me. I see complaints that an easy mode cheapens the experience or holds your hand, then I see people say "go look on the internet" and you specifically say with the right strategy, (X) is easy.

I don't get why it's okay to be spoonfed information from the internet if easy mode is bad. You're promoting assistance. You're promoting the secrets and tactics of the game be given away.

Making the mechanics of this game easy will make the secrets useless because you don't need them. There's no need for that shortcut if you finish that level in one go. If you just tell the secrets it's still an obstacle. It will be much easier but it will still pose a challenge and the battles will still be exciting.

Besides the game justifies giving away secrets and tactics. There's the whole floor message mechanic and some of these secrets are impossible without the combined information of a player base. There's a whole hidden level that can only be accessed by going to another hidden level and getting an item from it. Combined with how massively scattered the story is i think FROM wants people to look things up. There's a guy on youtube who made several videos explaining the lore of the world and i didn't know a good half of it even after 3 playthroughs.

Thatrocketeer:

It's cause the simple thought of accessibility to others will invalidate their status as "hardcore" gamers and they'd lose the ability to look down on "casuals" the moment the game gets an easy mode.

OP: First off, Dark Souls isn't hard. Its tedious, bland, and a little grindy, but its certainly not hard.

Some of you guys might want the tediousness of the game, and that's fine. But you might want to think that there are others that want to play the game without the tediousness it currently possesses, and the option of removing that tediousness is just that, an option, you don't have to take it, but there are certainly others that will. There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, it's more beneficial for the developers to do that since it'd make the game more accessible due to the current state of the market. It could increase the number of customers from just a small niche of circle-jerking fanboys to a lot more.

If they put in the OPTION to remove the difficulty, hell they could make easy mode perma-undead mode, and just remove it for story purposes when required to save for server issues.

Also, those 4 skills you have placed at the original post, every single person who plays fighting games and/or ARTSs a lot have those.

Well, if it isn't hard you don't need it to be easier, you want the game to play differently: more fast, with lots of save points, less backtracking and maybe a minimap. This is not making the game easier, this is making the game be something that it is not.

See, I don't think that people that are advocating an easy mode even know what they want from the game.

Dying less? It is a integral part to the setting, to the story and to the game mechanisms.
Enemies with less health? You would still need to learn to navigate the map, which is much more difficult than the battles.
Minimap? that would completely destroy the sense of dread and the amazing exploration.
Easier bosses? Man, most of them already have several easy ways to beat and you can always call for help if you are really stuck.
More information? This is not even related to difficulty and even most fans of the game think that the game might improve somehow in that respect.
Less backtracking? It is a design choice, that exists to train you, if you don't like it, this is not the kind of game for you.

People say that Dark Souls players are a selfish elite. But wanting to transform the game into a different thing because you want to, I don't know, use cool armor sets (because you really don't want to experience the sense of achievement that the game is all about), sounds to me something much more selfish and narrow minded.

I understand you wanting an easy mode in uncharted because the game is about the story, or in a sports game or in a fighting game. But when the point of the whole design is to overcome the difficulty, asking for an easy mode sounds silly.

The easy mode is already in the game, it is just not a button - it is in the gameplay mechanisms! This is fudging brilliant and yes, it can be improved, so I want From Soft putting all their focus in making this feature better and not transforming it in a mode, as every other game around.

Wouldn't that way of thinking apply to every game? And I mean the different difficulty based around the gameplay. It's always either timing or technique.

And IMO, the problem with today's difficulty is that it gives players too many chances. My say to that is, KEEP IT! And then give us your old-style difficulty as the hardest difficulty.

Let's not forget enticing the whole world to accept games as an actual acceptable media means that they have to cater to people with less motor skills. As for the hunger of the hardcore gamers, isn't that why games like Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy are made?

Thatrocketeer:

Also, those 4 skills you have placed at the original post, every single person who plays fighting games and/or ARTSs a lot have those.

They might have, but if they do, they apply it in a totally different way and certainly not mixed together.

Fighting games might require patience, but it is for training not for exploration and planning. And they certainly do not need lateral thinking. Most of all, they require memorization and reflexes.

Real Time strategies requires mainly reflexes and planning and also a really good knowledge of the building trees, knowledge of the map, etc.

If you are approaching Dark Souls thinking the skill set is similar to this kind of games I'm not surprised that you want an easy mode.

Burst6:

Making the mechanics of this game easy will make the secrets useless because you don't need them. There's no need for that shortcut if you finish that level in one go. If you just tell the secrets it's still an obstacle. It will be much easier but it will still pose a challenge and the battles will still be exciting.

Quoted for truth.

zinho73:
snip

I think you misquoted me, i wasn't the one wishing for a minimap.

Reading some posts of this thread (and others) it just occurred to me that most people that are asking for an easy mode do no want an EASIER to play Dark Souls - they wan a FASTER way to play it, passing everything on the first try, without any backtracking and nothing of this nonsense of upgrading things, learning the timing of the combat and discovering secrets.

They want another game with a Dark Souls skin...

lapan:

zinho73:
snip

I think you misquoted me, i wasn't the one wishing for a minimap.

Oh, boy. Sorry for that. I will try to correct it.

Fully agree. I've always though Dark Souls was closer to a platformer than to a fighting game. It isn't about fighting, it's about solving the puzzle. Over and over again.
Walk out of spawn point, kill crosbow skeleton. Jump down stairs and kill skeleton. Walk down stairs and fight skeletons. The enemies have distinct "types" with patterns to defeat them. Dodge, block, slash, hack. It is about the puzzle solving.

kman123:

lapan:

kman123:
*currently stuck in Tomb of the Giants* I desperately need a mini map. That place is literal hell.

But yes, no game satisfies me more than conquering a huge milestone in Dark Souls.

You are at the single worst place to go before you get the warp feature. I don't wish actually having to climb out of there on anyone.

If you didnt use any bonfire in there yet you could always homeward bone out though.

I've got the Lordvessel, but I'm struggling hardcore to get to Nito, even with the skull lantern.

Also, are you aware that exists a bonfire a little bit ahead the first one that bypasses some of the skeleton dogs?

I would say that everyone atleast watch that video because it makes the point better than any of us guys can.

The devs made this game with an artistic / gameplay focus, where every element comes together to make a near perfect game for those ppl who like this sort of thing. I would show a YT video that makes this point about Darksouls where the guy in the video mentions a German word meaning all the elements work together perfectly (i'm hoping someone else can link it).

Personally I think ppl are confusing elitism and gamers who are purists. An elitist would say that they don't want casuals stinking up the place, a purist would say yes please play this great game but within the confines of what the developer intended. The problem is that it's quite hard for purists to bring their arguments across when others automatically chalk them down as elitists. So in the end many purists just revert to saying get off my lawn rather than waste their time.

Purist or elitist whatever you feel DS gamers are, it doesn't mean that their own views and wants are any less than other gamers, and I don't see why one game which is catering to them should be watered down to suit others tastes, especially when their are plenty of other games to play.

Easy mode to many DS players is like EA wanting to put in capture the flag in Mirrors Edge 2 or co-op in Dead Space 3. PPl who like the originals react the same way, they aren't against co-op or capture the flag but don't want it in those 2 games because it goes against the original focus, to bring examples of other games which have co-op is mostly meaningless unless it's an exact clone, DS is unique to no direct comparisions can be applied.

If the Souls series hadn't been this big thing we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but the fact that it has proves that there is a sizable chunk of gamers who want this type of experience.

The Almighty Aardvark:
snip.

first you say im oversimplifying the combat, next you say you like the simple combat. I do not like simple combat, which is also why i never finished playing Fallout3 as every weapon basically feels the same and shooting things becomes extremely boring after a few hours (despite the fact that i thought that FO3 had better environment and story). Skyrim require a hell of a lot more thought with combat than demon souls ever did, especially with stealth, archery, or magic (melee not so much).

Reaction time is not the same thing as thought. I dont think a person would say that Dance Dance Central requires a lot of thought. Honestly combat in dark/demon soul is similiar to that of QTE.

The witcher 2 has a much better combat system that is both varied and difficult.

you know how i beat the tower knight in demon souls? not by learning his attack pattern and successfully dodging it, but by turning off lock on and swinging like a blindfolded kid looking for the pinata. never got hit once. wooo, look at all of the thought that required!

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here