Legacy of Kain - who remembers the awesome series?

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Defiance was my fave, and DoPo is right. Fuck Team Blade, I'm Team Vorador. Guy looks awesome, sounds awesome, and turned from a formidable antagonist to a respected ally thanks to the timeline fuckery the series is known for.

Raziel's segments were always more interesting to me because of the shifts between the Spritual plane and the Physical plane. It's the kind of level design conceit we don't see often anymore, with little oddities like Quantum Conundrum not really capturing that same sense of sheer alteration.

Kain's segments and most of his own games were always more action-oriented. I don't really mind, but I generally suck at Devil May Cry-esque gameplay. I usually end up wanting to get past all the fighting bits and get back to the puzzles and traversal elements as quickly as possible.

Honestly, if Squeenix picked up the IP, I'd settle with a reboot. If it's Jaffe's hands, I just hope we'll get more than the same basic Alpha Male in Grisly Combat setup God of War was known for. I'd rather my brains be teased than my thumbs by punished for my inability to mash out combos to clear out an arbitrarily enemy-filled room or arena.

*Looks avatar*
I just love how Raziel refers what will happen in future and his voice acting overall.

Um my Avatar is a pic of Raziel what more do i have to say

I love LoK, but yeah.. I agree that even though the lore was interesting, it did get way complicated if you hadn't played all the games you felt as though you were missing out on something. I'd love to see remakes though, as long as they don't screw around with it too much. Then again... we'd be missing out on all the good Tony Jay voice action, so I'm not sure if I want remakes. ):

Zipa:
The games were awesome, especially the story and voice acting, Simon Templeman's best work was as Kain I think.

Also René Auberjonois as Vorador, so good as well. Not to mention the elder god and mobieus and all the others.

René Auberjonois was Janos Audron. Vorador was done by Paul Lukather.

/LoK fanboy

Still my favorite time traveling story ever. Simply because it was the story; not merely a DeusEx that so many game use it for. It was like watching two chess masters play chess with time, countering each move. I thought learning how events unfolded with the characters was part of the fun, since no one really knew what was going to happen, and sometimes the characters had to work at correcting their mistakes.

The writing and voice acting are still some of the best to date in any game I've played. The characters were also well written; both as independent agents and puppets of other characters. The plot always had twists and introduced new elements on old stories; especially with the continued rearrangement of the timeline. Kain manages to garner sympathy while maintaining a kingly way about him.

It was a game that made you think, not just about the mechanics of the world based on the interactions of the characters, but why they were so motivated to do so. When one moment you find yourself unearthing a secret that changes your perspective of a collective, it may change in the next 5 minutes when you discover something they've hidden away elsewhere. It's a game that introduces moral conundrums better than any current moral choice system; all without giving the player a choice in the matter.

The gameplay itself allowed for certain frustrations; platforming with uncontrollable cameras and a monumentally ridiculous "reaction" system that often punished players for simply being 'touched' by an enemy or affect; which created a very static combat system.

I would prefer a completion of the current timeline/story arc over rebooting it. Although I wouldn't be opposed to it if they wrote some lengthy introduction which tied events in; like a fundamental and serious change in the timeline which resulted in a massive reshuffling of events. It could easily allow them to revisit characters and events without retconing the previous games; which would satisfy players like myself who are familiar with it.

At least I'm not the only one who remembers this series. I found it to be epic in every way. I just wish it continued if I'm perfectly honest, although the remake could be quite good. If the remake ends up being worse than say, E.T. on the Atari 2600 or something, I would still buy it. :)

Ragsnstitches:

DoPo:

But that post doesn't even mention the internal lore inconsistencies, the creative sterility when it comes to names, the other gaping holes unexplained things in the plot.

Now, were the game as it was planned originally - a standalone title, it would have been above average. When put in context of LoK, though it's not. There is no other title BO2 is above in the entire line.

I think we might have talked about this before at some point, but the writer for the Soul Reaver series (Amy Hennig) wasn't involved with BO 2. This is why it feels so disconnected from the Series. A different writer penned it but couldn't get the feel of it.

I am fully aware of that. I even linked to a Q&A with one of the guys who was on the "original" CD LoK team, who talks about why BO2 is...BO2. Amy henning did try to patch the things up. Were it not for her, BO2 would have been a total and utter abomination.

Ragsnstitches:
Also, didn't know about the Stand Alone thing, makes sense sorta (A spinoff to the franchise to take it in a different, less lore heavy direction for new comers would have worked and might have been interesting).

No, not the franchise. It was originally planned as a different game altogether. I think you can sort of guess it by how it doesn't quite fit in with the rest. Also, they reused lots of the art, architecture and some of the characters.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would have (probably) liked to play that game. I don't like it as an LoK game, though.

I liked that in Soul Reaver, getting the vampires to stay dead required having a pointy object to impale them with, or sun/water when you didn't have the Soul Reaver handy.

I used to take out the spear and re impale them out of spite.

Also, I derived entirely too much satisfaction from watching the humans worship me.

Telekinetic blast was fun too. Like Fus Ro dah, only better.

I played the first two Soul Reaver games when I was younger on the Playstation. Oh man they were fucking awesome. Still to this day I don't completely understand the storyline, it seemed so complex. But I didn't care, still loved it. I wanted to play them again recently, so purchased copies for the PC but it seems to be a bad port as far as controls go. :/ So I might have to dust off the old console for once. Hmm.

I remember in the first one, I had a lot of fun killing enemies. Beating them half to death, then throwing them in water, onto spikes and in the sun and shit. Ah, good times there.

DoPo:

RT:

TrevHead:

I'll have to make the time to play BO2. In the past I've only come across ppl who didn't like it, But going from this thread it seems to be a love-hate game. Given that it's in old Nosgoth and isn't a SR game I should be more comfortable playing as Kain. I might see SR2 and 3 in a new light too.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=69194
Here's a link that'll put you in the mood. Actually, I'd like all BO2 haters to read it.

OMG, laughing so hard now. It's "above average LoK title"? Above average of what? What is worse than BO2? Yes, I agree that the boss fights are cool, and so are the Dark Gifts. The stealth kills are brutally fulfilling to watch. That doesn't mean that much, though. What, blocking is well done? Yes, let's say it is. The fights still feel like unecessary repetition of "hit, hit, block, repeat" from both parties.

Above average for a game like, at all. Still better than fights in Soul Reaver 2, which feel like a sloppy clusterfuck. Or, for that matter, Defiance, which tries to be Devil May Cry, but forgets, that you need little things like "moves" for that. Blocking adds timing element to the combat and at least both you and your enemies can block and dodge and whatnot. Grabbing and using Dark Gifts in combat is really satisfying as well. Plus, as a game, it feels finished and not rushed like, say, Soul Reaver 2 or Defiance.

"Theorizing about Vorador" as a merit is pure BS. It is a huge plot point that he dies and leaves Kain as the last vampire. Not to mention that vampires don't really have a habit of returning from the dead. With notable exceptions, of course, but that only makes them notable.

Then again, they needed to A) Have Blood Omen 2 and B) Have it without Raziel. How could Kain have an army without Raziel? Let someone else raise it. Any notable vampires in the series? Ding-ding-ding.

the reason to the fact why the Sarafan r giving glyph energy to the poor - the Sarafan Lord just want to kill them all. Some small details maybe, but they add to the story.

Woah, that's, like, really deep man. It's like...well, like moustache-twirling villain #50238. Although, I really liked what Daniel Cabuco said here - oh, what the Sarafan Lord could have been...

Was it supposed to be deep? Uh, no. Was it said to be deep? No, it wasn't. So what the funk and wagnal are you talking about?

Like Turel, for example. He appered in the end of Defiance, though we do not know how or why - Raziel still needed to kill him and the developers did not know how to make it happen . We can only theorize that he was brought to the past by Aizmuth, but the series did not explained it.

Yeah, bold emphasis mine. We are able to theorise. Is that too hard to see? Here Turel explains something - being displaced, and it actually sounds a lot like the end of SR1/beginning of SR2 and the time chamber. Also he is deposited in Avernus. Throw in the hylden and so on. All clues we can use. Let's compare it with what we know about how Vorador could have resurrected:

Nothing

Yes, this is the entire thing. The only thing that anyone tells us about, ahem, A HUGE FUCKING DEAL THERE[1] is Kain just threatening Vorador once. That doesn't lead to theorising since there is nothing to use.

He has a head on his shoulders. He created Kain's armies in the past, so he was of use to Kain. Kain threatened him to "return him to the grave". A bit of logic and you're all set. Turel on the other hand makes less sense - what, was Azimuth ever conspiring with The Hylden? If she was, why? If not, why did she bring him there? And why him and not other brothers? How convenient, that the only brother Raziel didn't have a time to fight against, was brought where he'd eventually show up? And, while we're at it, how in the holy name of hell did Kain miss him back in BO1? I think a ritual with a crapload of cultists and a huge-ass monstrocity is hard to miss.

But that post doesn't even mention the internal lore inconsistencies, the creative sterility when it comes to names, the other gaping holes unexplained things in the plot.

Like?

Now, were the game as it was planned originally - a standalone title, it would have been above average. When put in context of LoK, though it's not. There is no other title BO2 is above in the entire line.

First, it wasn't planned originally as a standalone title. At all. I know you're talking about the Chakan thingy, but no technical assets from the unmade Chakan game made it into BO2. It had the same lead designer, Steve Ross and that's it. He may have used his style and story ideas he had for Chakan, but that's all there is to it.
Second, last time an unrelated game was made into a LoK game, we got Soul Reaver.

EDIT: Oh, right, I missed the last sentence of that post.

All in all, I think Blood Omen, while being the weakest of the series

Wouldn't that mean it's not "above average for LoK" as the poster initially claimed? Well, it's as consistent as BO2, I'll give it that.

See above.

And Nosgoth just feels too... mundane, in BO 2. Even with it's limited palette, BO 1 was more fantastical in its presentation.

Alright, I can understand not liking style (even though saying Kain's model from SR1 was superior is crazy), but Nosgoth feeling mundane? It was anything but mundane.

[1] Seriously, that is a monumental point - the last vampire to die suddenly has a head on his shoulders

RT:
Above average for a game like, at all.

Not what the poster claims. They do say "above average LoK game". I take this to mean "above average game from the LoK franchise" not "above average game at all. And here is 'LoK' for some reason".

RT:

"Theorizing about Vorador" as a merit is pure BS. It is a huge plot point that he dies and leaves Kain as the last vampire. Not to mention that vampires don't really have a habit of returning from the dead. With notable exceptions, of course, but that only makes them notable.

Then again, they needed to A) Have Blood Omen 2 and B) Have it without Raziel. How could Kain have an army without Raziel? Let someone else raise it. Any notable vampires in the series? Ding-ding-ding.

Wait, wait, wait let's back up here - why do they need a vampire army for Kain? That's deliberately going against the lore here. Or do you mean "as long as they are going to break it, throw in another plot hole to cover it up". Ugh, yeah, because that's what you're saying. Facts, as you said - Kain did not and could not have a vampire army. They decided to include one. They decided to just randomly return a character to explain it. Except it now doesn't explain how the character returns. Makes sense, it does not.

RT:

Yes, this is the entire thing. The only thing that anyone tells us about, ahem, A HUGE FUCKING DEAL THERE[1] is Kain just threatening Vorador once. That doesn't lead to theorising since there is nothing to use.

He has a head on his shoulders. He created Kain's armies in the past, so he was of use to Kain. Kain threatened him to "return him to the grave". A bit of logic and you're all set.

1. Vorador didn't make any armies for Kain. He helped him once. 2. Yeah that seems like just a threat.

RT:
Turel on the other hand makes less sense - what, was Azimuth ever conspiring with The Hylden? If she was, why?

I wouldn't know, but I do know the Hylden corrupted the Circle and have that nifty ability to take over people.

RT:
If not, why did she bring him there?

Evidence suggest collaborating with Moebius. And Mortanius was there for the ritual. Dunno what exactly would they want from him but it's a lead. Now compare it to Vorador. Yeah, nothing still.

RT:
And why him and not other brothers? How convenient, that the only brother Raziel didn't have a time to fight against, was brought where he'd eventually show up?

This was explained off-games - Azimuth and Mortanius served the Hylden and knew them by the name of Hash'ak'gik, Azimuth brought Turel to serve as an uncorruptable vessel for them. And we see that the Hylden used Turel to manipulate that cult.

As for why Turel, there is little to suggest other vampires are more appropriate - there is Janos, Kain, and his lieutenants as quite immortal, the rest are too weak, I would guess. And Vorador and some of the others can escape that pit. Turel has the advantage of being unaccounted for after the massacre in the SR1 era and being the last vampire there (that is of significant power).

RT:
And, while we're at it, how in the holy name of hell did Kain miss him back in BO1? I think a ritual with a crapload of cultists and a huge-ass monstrocity is hard to miss.

True, however, Kain didn't get to that ritual chamber in BO1. It's not hard to miss it if you never see it.

RT:

But that post doesn't even mention the internal lore inconsistencies, the creative sterility when it comes to names, the other gaping holes unexplained things in the plot.

Like?

Internal lore inconsistencies:
- the Sarafan, for a group that really, really doesn't like vampires, don't seem to fazed having a vampire command them
- the eternal prison is to the south-east of Meridian (on the map), and then there is this little double gem

BEAST
He is...listen to me. There is a place in Nosgoth, far to the north, where time means nothing, where hours and years are frozen for eternity. The Eternal Prison. The wretches imprisoned there pay for their crimes for eternity. The builder is there.

KAIN
The Eternal Prison. I have heard of such a place. I did not realize it was so close to Meridian. How do I reach it?

Emphasis mine. It's both far away and so close. And in the opposite direction.

Creative sterility when it comes to names: the Mass, the Seer, the Builder, the Whisper, the Cabal, the Beast, the Device. What, if the team had any pets do they call them the Cat, the Dog, and the Goldfish?

Other unexplained things:
- how the fuck does the Nexus tone even work? It's never ever heard of before or after the game's timeline
- there are switches clearly for suicide only - pull it and you blow up as well as the wall around you - WHAT THE FUCK? In what actual place does this make any kind of sense, away from game puzzles?
- well, those switches aren't internelly inconsistent, at lest, since there is a similar one to destroy the Eternal Prison. But why? Because there is a cartoonishly evil villain, do we also need giant "DO NOT PRESS ME!" buttons?
- See that statue of Mebius in the Eternal Prison? It's pretty isn't it. Clearly it doesn't deserve any other observation than that
- what happened with Vorador after the end?

RT:
I know you're talking about the Chakan thingy, but no technical assets from the unmade Chakan game made it into BO2. It had the same lead designer, Steve Ross and that's it. He may have used his style and story ideas he had for Chakan, but that's all there is to it.

I'm saying, I would have liked Chakan more. Unconnected from the LoK series and it actually sounds quite cool. But a game that shows very shaky connection with the lore and needs two other games to make it's existence even possible? Not to my tastes.

RT:
Second, last time an unrelated game was made into a LoK game, we got Soul Reaver.

And that is significant...how?

[1] Seriously, that is a monumental point - the last vampire to die suddenly has a head on his shoulders

anthony87:

Zipa:
The games were awesome, especially the story and voice acting, Simon Templeman's best work was as Kain I think.

Also René Auberjonois as Vorador, so good as well. Not to mention the elder god and mobieus and all the others.

René Auberjonois was Janos Audron. Vorador was done by Paul Lukather.

/LoK fanboy

Shit yeah you are right, and I should know better, I played the hell out of SR2 and LoK.

DoPo:

RT:
Above average for a game like, at all.

Not what the poster claims. They do say "above average LoK game". I take this to mean "above average game from the LoK franchise" not "above average game at all. And here is 'LoK' for some reason".

No, that's what you claim poster claims.

RT:

"Theorizing about Vorador" as a merit is pure BS. It is a huge plot point that he dies and leaves Kain as the last vampire. Not to mention that vampires don't really have a habit of returning from the dead. With notable exceptions, of course, but that only makes them notable.

Then again, they needed to A) Have Blood Omen 2 and B) Have it without Raziel. How could Kain have an army without Raziel? Let someone else raise it. Any notable vampires in the series? Ding-ding-ding.

Wait, wait, wait let's back up here - why do they need a vampire army for Kain? That's deliberately going against the lore here. Or do you mean "as long as they are going to break it, throw in another plot hole to cover it up". Ugh, yeah, because that's what you're saying. Facts, as you said - Kain did not and could not have a vampire army. They decided to include one. They decided to just randomly return a character to explain it. Except it now doesn't explain how the character returns. Makes sense, it does not.[/quote]So, what do you think should Kain do in between BO and SR, eat skittles? Or conquer stuff?

RT:

Yes, this is the entire thing. The only thing that anyone tells us about, ahem, A HUGE FUCKING DEAL THERE[1] is Kain just threatening Vorador once. That doesn't lead to theorising since there is nothing to use.

He has a head on his shoulders. He created Kain's armies in the past, so he was of use to Kain. Kain threatened him to "return him to the grave". A bit of logic and you're all set.

1. Vorador didn't make any armies for Kain. He helped him once. 2. Yeah that seems like just a threat.

Yes, yes he did. They say so when they first meet.
Kain: You created a new race, something I could never do, and from that race, I had my army.

RT:
Turel on the other hand makes less sense - what, was Azimuth ever conspiring with The Hylden? If she was, why?

I wouldn't know, but I do know the Hylden corrupted the Circle and have that nifty ability to take over people.

Corrupting is one thing, but this is really out of nowhere.

RT:
If not, why did she bring him there?

Evidence suggest collaborating with Moebius. And Mortanius was there for the ritual. Dunno what exactly would they want from him but it's a lead. Now compare it to Vorador. Yeah, nothing still.

What evidence? The fact that Kain's death was convenient for Moebius and Raziel only got so angry after getting possessed? Even Moebius, a vampire hater he is, seems not really pleased with The Hylden being there.

RT:
And why him and not other brothers? How convenient, that the only brother Raziel didn't have a time to fight against, was brought where he'd eventually show up?

This was explained off-games - Azimuth and Mortanius served the Hylden and knew them by the name of Hash'ak'gik, Azimuth brought Turel to serve as an uncorruptable vessel for them. And we see that the Hylden used Turel to manipulate that cult.

As for why Turel, there is little to suggest other vampires are more appropriate - there is Janos, Kain, and his lieutenants as quite immortal, the rest are too weak, I would guess. And Vorador and some of the others can escape that pit. Turel has the advantage of being unaccounted for after the massacre in the SR1 era and being the last vampire there (that is of significant power).

For somebody serving The Hylden Mortanius sure is eager to ensure their defeat.
Mortanius: I created the champion foretold by my masters, who is destined to be your destroyer. The Scion of Balance will save Nosgoth -- the Pillars will return to vampire guardianship as intended, and your race will be cast down forever.
As for Azimuth, serving those, who have your death in plans is a bit unwise, ain't it? I can buy possession (even though there was no clues of it prior to that), but servitude?
As for Turel... still too convenient. Dumah was a huge brick AND he was much more easier to still, with him being impaled by spears as thick as columns and whatnot.

RT:
And, while we're at it, how in the holy name of hell did Kain miss him back in BO1? I think a ritual with a crapload of cultists and a huge-ass monstrocity is hard to miss.

True, however, Kain didn't get to that ritual chamber in BO1. It's not hard to miss it if you never see it.

Of all the chambers and catacombs he visited, he just happened to miss the largest one. Hell, he even uncovered the Soul Reaver, even though it was supposed to be hidden away and Azimuth thanked him for finding it and the Wraith Armor.

RT:

But that post doesn't even mention the internal lore inconsistencies, the creative sterility when it comes to names, the other gaping holes unexplained things in the plot.

Like?

Internal lore inconsistencies:
- the Sarafan, for a group that really, really doesn't like vampires, don't seem to fazed having a vampire command them
- the eternal prison is to the south-east of Meridian (on the map), and then there is this little double gem

BEAST
He is...listen to me. There is a place in Nosgoth, far to the north, where time means nothing, where hours and years are frozen for eternity. The Eternal Prison. The wretches imprisoned there pay for their crimes for eternity. The builder is there.

KAIN
The Eternal Prison. I have heard of such a place. I did not realize it was so close to Meridian. How do I reach it?

Emphasis mine. It's both far away and so close. And in the opposite direction.

Creative sterility when it comes to names: the Mass, the Seer, the Builder, the Whisper, the Cabal, the Beast, the Device. What, if the team had any pets do they call them the Cat, the Dog, and the Goldfish?

Other unexplained things:
- how the fuck does the Nexus tone even work? It's never ever heard of before or after the game's timeline
- there are switches clearly for suicide only - pull it and you blow up as well as the wall around you - WHAT THE FUCK? In what actual place does this make any kind of sense, away from game puzzles?
- well, those switches aren't internelly inconsistent, at lest, since there is a similar one to destroy the Eternal Prison. But why? Because there is a cartoonishly evil villain, do we also need giant "DO NOT PRESS ME!" buttons?
- See that statue of Mebius in the Eternal Prison? It's pretty isn't it. Clearly it doesn't deserve any other observation than that
- what happened with Vorador after the end?

But it ain't the same Sarafan order. The first Sarafan order was ancient history in the BO1 era. This one is reformed by The Hylden General and thus, has its own rules.
The talk between Kain and Janos didn't take place in Meridian. It was in the Canyons level. So it's far north from the canyons and southeast from Meridian. As simple as that.
Creative sterility, I'll give you that, they should've got a li'l bit more creative with the names.
As for the Nexus stone, why should all the games resolve around the same people and artifacts over and over again? A part of what I both kinda like and kinda don't about BO2, is that it brings new stuff to the table.
Suicide switches... Ah, you're talking about those in Industrial Quarters, ain't it? Well, aren't those said to be bombs? Why do bombs have switches is an entirely different question, though.
I don't really remember that one. Gotta reach it in the game.
Moebius' statue is kinda weird, but since the Eternal Prison has the hour motif and is, in fact, eternal, I think Moebius has something to do with it.
That's a very good question. I guess it's one of the "Let's leave it to be explained in the next one" things.

RT:
I know you're talking about the Chakan thingy, but no technical assets from the unmade Chakan game made it into BO2. It had the same lead designer, Steve Ross and that's it. He may have used his style and story ideas he had for Chakan, but that's all there is to it.

I'm saying, I would have liked Chakan more. Unconnected from the LoK series and it actually sounds quite cool. But a game that shows very shaky connection with the lore and needs two other games to make it's existence even possible? Not to my tastes.

And also you're saying that BO2 was an entirely unrelated game when the development started and then was repurposed into a LOK game, which isn't true. Just Steve as lead designer, his concepts and story ideas. And, really, would the game be better, if they'd fill LoK's serial numbers off? Nope. It'd be the same.
I think of the game as of a spinoff, since it really feels like one, and, in fact, was intended to be one from the very start - BO and SR subseries were to go in different directions, but while SR2 decided to tie itself back into BO1, BO2... well, was BO2. I enjoy it for what it is, and there is stuff to enjoy. Yeah, there are some wallbangers here and there and the story, the first thing people expect from the series won't get any awards, but still, dispatching enemies is pretty fun, different weapons are nice (I especially adore the double-bladed swords), using Dark Gifts is cool and so is fighting bosses. And, say what you will about writing, but Kain got some awesome one-liners in it.
Kain: But you will never know how it ends, Faustus, for I will bury you first of all.
I like the art style - yeah, it's nothing like Dan's and Dan is the man, but mind-screwy and very nineties style of Ross is nice too. The world feels genuinely more alive and you feel like there's stuff going on in Meridian behind the scenes, unlike the shallow and small world of SR2.

RT:
Second, last time an unrelated game was made into a LoK game, we got Soul Reaver.

And that is significant...how?

"It was supposed to be an unrelated game" isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Peace.
Captcha: Pyrrhic Victory. What.

[1] Seriously, that is a monumental point - the last vampire to die suddenly has a head on his shoulders

I absolutely did not expect to like the Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain.

The first time I eagerly popped the disc in, I felt it was 'ugly' and 'too Western' and 'crap'. It was sitting at the bottom of a drawer for... weeks, at least.

Then, one evening, I tried again... and got hooked. Best gameplay out of nowhere, fun story, fun black blood vomit-inducing fountains for the greedy.

That was well before vegetarian vampires and other such nonsense. I was very, very entertained and was sure I stumbled over a real gem.

Soul Reaver - yeah, no, but no. No thanks all the way. It felt like ugly Tomb Raider with boring puzzles and annoying platforming. Plus, it kept glitching/crashing/bugging out on me. Not at all what I expected or wanted after Blood Omen.

Soul Reaver 2 = Spyro the Vampire. Absolute and utter bollocks.

After that, I basically zoned out and went back to playing Blood Omen. haven't seen the final two offerings, as I lost any trust and respect I had left for Eidos. What use is a great story when playing the actual game feels like a really tedious, repetitive, carpal-tunnel-inducing job?

jhoroz:
/snip

Funnily enough I just got around to trying this out on my PS3 (downloaded with PSN+ for free sometime last year), saw this thread and came to post the almost exact opposite response as you. It was fucking terrible, the acting was cringeworthy although there were a few hysterically bad moments scattered in there to keep me on my toes;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NW39PthhaSI#t=245s

Convincing! Drama!

However, I remember playing some of the first Blood Omen game on PC years ago and quite liking it. Was very different to this 3D malarkey, isometric RPG/Action job IIRC?

RT:
So, what do you think should Kain do in between BO and SR, eat skittles? Or conquer stuff?

Search around, find a way to bring souls back from the dead, find a way to control the weather, create his own vampire army. Maybe enslave some people and lead them in the mean time.

RT:

1. Vorador didn't make any armies for Kain. He helped him once. 2. Yeah that seems like just a threat.

Yes, yes he did. They say so when they first meet.
Kain: You created a new race, something I could never do, and from that race, I had my army.

Yes, I may be wrong, let's examine this meeting

Huh, not seeing it. You are talking about BO2 - at which point you are ignoring my point - they made up that vampire army and made up Vorador there. They didn't actually need either as you claim.

RT:
What evidence?

Turel being from another time.

RT:
For somebody serving The Hylden Mortanius sure is eager to ensure their defeat.

Dunno, if I worked for a boss that started using me as a fleshy puppet, I would too try to find a way to stop them. Also, it was Amy Henning who said they served the Hylden

There has been speculation in the past that both Lady Azimuth and Moebius were devout followers of Hash'ak'gik. Would it be safe to say that this is indeed the case? Azimuth alone wouldn't be able to summon Hash, but could with Moebius' help.

Azimuth and Mortanius served the Hylden, who they knew as "Hash'ak'gik." They were seduced away from their service of the Pillars by the power they unearthed beneath Avernus.

Moebius didn't serve Hash'ak'gik, though. He's always been a servant of the Elder God.

The means of summoning Turel was left deliberately vague, so that a future game might be able to cover it.

RT:
As for Azimuth, serving those, who have your death in plans is a bit unwise, ain't it? I can buy possession (even though there was no clues of it prior to that), but servitude?

Yes, unwise, it was almost as if she was afflicted with some kind of insanity...

Yep, you're right there, I see no rational explanation why she'd do that.

RT:
As for Turel... still too convenient. Dumah was a huge brick AND he was much more easier to still, with him being impaled by spears as thick as columns and whatnot.

That assumes that Turel was taken from precisely the time Raz went on a murder spree. And no, say, 50 years later or a century. And there is nothing to suggest he wasn't.

RT:
But it ain't the same Sarafan order. The first Sarafan order was ancient history in the BO1 era. This one is reformed by The Hylden General and thus, has its own rules.

It is still composed of people who hate vampires and are on a crusade against them.

RT:
The talk between Kain and Janos didn't take place in Meridian. It was in the Canyons level. So it's far north from the canyons and southeast from Meridian. As simple as that.

I actually didn't realize that. That would make more sense now.

RT:
As for the Nexus stone, why should all the games resolve around the same people and artifacts over and over again? A part of what I both kinda like and kinda don't about BO2, is that it brings new stuff to the table.

I'm not saying it shouldn't add more stuff, but for the love of the Elder God, don't just drop poorly written deus ex machinas. "This an incredibly powerful sword!" "OK, let me reach into my ass... A-a-and here is a lump that makes it as effective as a stick."

RT:
Suicide switches... Ah, you're talking about those in Industrial Quarters, ain't it? Well, aren't those said to be bombs? Why do bombs have switches is an entirely different question, though.

Precisely, who in their right minds would want to blow themselves up. I mean, sure, there would be some people that fancy it, but not enough to warrant widely manufacturing those, I reckon.

RT:
Moebius' statue is kinda weird, but since the Eternal Prison has the hour motif and is, in fact, eternal, I think Moebius has something to do with it.

See, I get that. However, when Kain sees it he gives the equivalent of a blank stare and shrugging of shoulders. It certainly would have been something he'd comment on. Even if it was just "That loathsome face again!" or some insult.

RT:
And also you're saying that BO2 was an entirely unrelated game when the development started and then was repurposed into a LOK game, which isn't true.

No, I'm saying Chakan was a different unrelated game I'd play. Trying to incorporate (parts of) it in LoK didn't go as good, since it broke continuity.

RT:
And, really, would the game be better, if they'd fill LoK's serial numbers off? Nope. It'd be the same.

Yes, there wouldn't be as big a plot holes. And change, like, several names (Kain, Vorador, Sarafan, Nosgoth and a few more), some character models (Vorador, Janos, maybe hive Kain's model that hat back at least, since it looks sweet) and bam, no sudden resurrections. Yes, it could be otherwise exactly the same but it would be judged against different standards. But also Chakan promised to evolve into sci-fi, and I would have loved to see that. I can actually kind of see it - the Hylden are actually aliens (heck, now that I think about it, they look alien-y) and Chakan later grabs blasters and so on. Yes, a similar thing has been done before, no, I'd still want to see that. Heck, I'd want more games to do it, I think the last game(s) that used a transition from medieval-ish fantasy to sci-fi (disregarding Age of Empires/Civilisations and such) was Might and Magic. We need slightly more of those.

RT:
I think of the game as of a spinoff, since it really feels like one, and, in fact, was intended to be one from the very start - BO and SR subseries were to go in different directions, but while SR2 decided to tie itself back into BO1, BO2... well, was BO2. I enjoy it for what it is, and there is stuff to enjoy. Yeah, there are some wallbangers here and there and the story, the first thing people expect from the series won't get any awards, but still, dispatching enemies is pretty fun, different weapons are nice (I especially adore the double-bladed swords), using Dark Gifts is cool and so is fighting bosses. And, say what you will about writing, but Kain got some awesome one-liners in it.

As I said, boss battles were good, stealth kills - also. And some of the combat moves. Still, though, I don't think somebody getting impaled on a sword to the hilt should be able to survive. Or if they get a blade through the head. Well, maybe some but certainly peasants shouldn't need multiple of those. The fighting was fun in the beginning but turned into too much of a drag - it was the same fight over and over again - it only took longer and longer as time went on.

RT:

RT:
Second, last time an unrelated game was made into a LoK game, we got Soul Reaver.

And that is significant...how?

"It was supposed to be an unrelated game" isn't necessarily a bad thing.

No it is not, and I never claimed it is. But when the unrelated game sound better than the end result I kind of wish it was an unrelated game.

Narrative is the only reason to play these games really, and truely its the only reason needed.

I played Blood Omen 2 on the Cube and it was great. Wanted to play the other games but never got the opportunity :(

Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen was one of my first PS1 games and I played the hell out of it. I have never gone back to replay it since the newer consoles have come out though, but I still have the game and would never get rid of it. Once Soul Reaver came out, though, I was fully hooked to this series. The block puzzles did get tedious and the fighting was so-so, but I really enjoyed the tension caused by needing to impale an enemy to fully eliminate them. There were lots of spears and posts lying around for your use, but occasionally you'd have nothing at hand and would have to run for it. I also liked (if I remember correctly) how you could instantly kill the weaker enemies by throwing a spear and impaling them. Good way to start out some of the fights.

And the emptiness of Nosgoth, it really felt like a ruined, devastated land. The boss fights were spectacular and the whole story just drew me in. When it ended on a cliffhanger, I was so pissed. It took forever for the sequel to come out and the story again engaged me greatly. Blood Omen 2 I felt was a bit of a letdown, but Defiance was an excellent ending.

I cannot endorse the playing of these games enough. If you haven't played them before, go out and find them. You will not be sorry.

DoPo:

RT:
So, what do you think should Kain do in between BO and SR, eat skittles? Or conquer stuff?

Search around, find a way to bring souls back from the dead, find a way to control the weather, create his own vampire army. Maybe enslave some people and lead them in the mean time.

Finding a way to control the weather? Uh, smoking machine, as simple as that. Creating an army doesn't make for a good action-adventure game. At least I haven't seen one with this premise.

RT:

1. Vorador didn't make any armies for Kain. He helped him once. 2. Yeah that seems like just a threat.

Yes, yes he did. They say so when they first meet.
Kain: You created a new race, something I could never do, and from that race, I had my army.

Yes, I may be wrong, let's examine this meeting

Huh, not seeing it. You are talking about BO2 - at which point you are ignoring my point - they made up that vampire army and made up Vorador there. They didn't actually need either as you claim.

Yes, I am talking about them meeting for the first time in BO2.

RT:
What evidence?

Turel being from another time.

She had a personal pocket time machine Kain retrieved from her in Blood Omen, so she didn't really need Moebius for that. Of course, he could've provided her with that, but why would he?

RT:
For somebody serving The Hylden Mortanius sure is eager to ensure their defeat.

Dunno, if I worked for a boss that started using me as a fleshy puppet, I would too try to find a way to stop them. Also, it was Amy Henning who said they served the Hylden

There has been speculation in the past that both Lady Azimuth and Moebius were devout followers of Hash'ak'gik. Would it be safe to say that this is indeed the case? Azimuth alone wouldn't be able to summon Hash, but could with Moebius' help.

Azimuth and Mortanius served the Hylden, who they knew as "Hash'ak'gik." They were seduced away from their service of the Pillars by the power they unearthed beneath Avernus.

Moebius didn't serve Hash'ak'gik, though. He's always been a servant of the Elder God.

The means of summoning Turel was left deliberately vague, so that a future game might be able to cover it.

Well then how about not making blood sacrifices for their best vessel? Really, serving the Hylden makes Mortanius' actions all the more inconsistent. And Azimuth? That comes out of nowhere.

RT:
As for Azimuth, serving those, who have your death in plans is a bit unwise, ain't it? I can buy possession (even though there was no clues of it prior to that), but servitude?

Yes, unwise, it was almost as if she was afflicted with some kind of insanity...

Yep, you're right there, I see no rational explanation why she'd do that.

Insanity doesn't mean idiocy. The Guardians, save for Mortanius, didn't really want to die. And even Mortanius, even though it was his plan all along, didn't give up without a fight.

RT:
As for Turel... still too convenient. Dumah was a huge brick AND he was much more easier to still, with him being impaled by spears as thick as columns and whatnot.

That assumes that Turel was taken from precisely the time Raz went on a murder spree. And no, say, 50 years later or a century. And there is nothing to suggest he wasn't.

Neither there is to suggest he was. All the theorizing about theorizing about theorizing.

RT:
But it ain't the same Sarafan order. The first Sarafan order was ancient history in the BO1 era. This one is reformed by The Hylden General and thus, has its own rules.

It is still composed of people who hate vampires and are on a crusade against them.

But they are more tolerable to those, that help them. As far as I remember, even Nazis were easier on those, who betrayed their own and served them.

RT:
The talk between Kain and Janos didn't take place in Meridian. It was in the Canyons level. So it's far north from the canyons and southeast from Meridian. As simple as that.

I actually didn't realize that. That would make more sense now.

Wait, my mistake. It was actually taking place in the Device. The other thing is, who drew the map? It's not an official one, it was based off the map shown in the intro and the EP was marked on it by fans. Their mistake, since the intro map doesn't mention the Prison (and why would it). That being said, far-close is probably just relativism.

RT:
As for the Nexus stone, why should all the games resolve around the same people and artifacts over and over again? A part of what I both kinda like and kinda don't about BO2, is that it brings new stuff to the table.

I'm not saying it shouldn't add more stuff, but for the love of the Elder God, don't just drop poorly written deus ex machinas. "This an incredibly powerful sword!" "OK, let me reach into my ass... A-a-and here is a lump that makes it as effective as a stick."

Well, we know that A) It's hylden magitech and B) it can stop Soul Reaver, which is something it has in common with Moebius' staff.

RT:
Suicide switches... Ah, you're talking about those in Industrial Quarters, ain't it? Well, aren't those said to be bombs? Why do bombs have switches is an entirely different question, though.

Precisely, who in their right minds would want to blow themselves up. I mean, sure, there would be some people that fancy it, but not enough to warrant widely manufacturing those, I reckon.

There's a reason why they are there - there are, only a couple, but still, mining rooms in the Industrial Quarters level. As the previous level, Sarafan Keep, has shown, the tech is coal-powered, so they mine coal and for that they have the bombs.

RT:
Moebius' statue is kinda weird, but since the Eternal Prison has the hour motif and is, in fact, eternal, I think Moebius has something to do with it.

See, I get that. However, when Kain sees it he gives the equivalent of a blank stare and shrugging of shoulders. It certainly would have been something he'd comment on. Even if it was just "That loathsome face again!" or some insult.

"At least I don't have to deal with the deceiving serpent in person".
Then again, he was kinda busy fighting a crazed vamp with a cauldron fused to his back.

RT:
And also you're saying that BO2 was an entirely unrelated game when the development started and then was repurposed into a LOK game, which isn't true.

No, I'm saying Chakan was a different unrelated game I'd play. Trying to incorporate (parts of) it in LoK didn't go as good, since it broke continuity.

I'd rather blame poor incorporation, than parts themselves.

RT:
And, really, would the game be better, if they'd fill LoK's serial numbers off? Nope. It'd be the same.

Yes, there wouldn't be as big a plot holes. And change, like, several names (Kain, Vorador, Sarafan, Nosgoth and a few more), some character models (Vorador, Janos, maybe hive Kain's model that hat back at least, since it looks sweet) and bam, no sudden resurrections. Yes, it could be otherwise exactly the same but it would be judged against different standards. But also Chakan promised to evolve into sci-fi, and I would have loved to see that. I can actually kind of see it - the Hylden are actually aliens (heck, now that I think about it, they look alien-y) and Chakan later grabs blasters and so on. Yes, a similar thing has been done before, no, I'd still want to see that. Heck, I'd want more games to do it, I think the last game(s) that used a transition from medieval-ish fantasy to sci-fi (disregarding Age of Empires/Civilisations and such) was Might and Magic. We need slightly more of those.

Agree, but well, Chakan was gone for good and it's better to have this, than let the ideas, and there are good ideas there, to just die. And what direction would BO2 go then? Reviving Raziel and others? But isn't it too much Raziel in the series already? Poor Kain is already out of focus in his own series. Though this game didn't help matters.

RT:
I think of the game as of a spinoff, since it really feels like one, and, in fact, was intended to be one from the very start - BO and SR subseries were to go in different directions, but while SR2 decided to tie itself back into BO1, BO2... well, was BO2. I enjoy it for what it is, and there is stuff to enjoy. Yeah, there are some wallbangers here and there and the story, the first thing people expect from the series won't get any awards, but still, dispatching enemies is pretty fun, different weapons are nice (I especially adore the double-bladed swords), using Dark Gifts is cool and so is fighting bosses. And, say what you will about writing, but Kain got some awesome one-liners in it.

As I said, boss battles were good, stealth kills - also. And some of the combat moves. Still, though, I don't think somebody getting impaled on a sword to the hilt should be able to survive. Or if they get a blade through the head. Well, maybe some but certainly peasants shouldn't need multiple of those. The fighting was fun in the beginning but turned into too much of a drag - it was the same fight over and over again - it only took longer and longer as time went on.

Peasants didn't. Male ones could die from just getting thrown. Females did need more punishment though, they refused to die without a couple of hits to the face. Well, Berserk and Immolate helped matters. Though the amount of blocks you had to do to immolate people was unreasonable.
But hey, bitch-slapping Sebastian never gets old.

RT:

And that is significant...how?

"It was supposed to be an unrelated game" isn't necessarily a bad thing.

No it is not, and I never claimed it is. But when the unrelated game sound better than the end result I kind of wish it was an unrelated game.

[/quote]It's all about the perspective.

I still own Soul Reaver and Blood Omen 2. I've got the digital copy of Blood Omen, and even the PC port of Soul Reaver 2.

Never got around to playing Defiance. When the HD Collection is finally unveiled, I'll stick 'em cash so fast.

Oh yes, I absolutely love this series. The thing that does it for me... Simon Templeman. That man has the most kick-ass voice I've ever heard. I just can't help but love it.

yes, i own a t least one copy of every game, i prefer kain over raziel because kain is just more awesome and while i like the story i actually don't think it's as well written as people say, everything from SR2 onward is solved by dumping massive amounts of plot convenience time travel on it.

and while i dislike the timetravel crap it would actually allow for a reboot to take place with the old characters, you play as kain after the events of defiance and have to protect earlier versions of yourself and raziel from something the elder god set in motion that sends ripples through time. you advance the characters and give no players a good way to grab onto 5 games of convoluted storytelling

DAT VOICE ACTING.

I've played all the games apart from Blood Omen, I've enjoyed all them. I'd quite like a LOK game before this gen runs out tbh...

GoaThief:

jhoroz:
/snip

Funnily enough I just got around to trying this out on my PS3 (downloaded with PSN+ for free sometime last year), saw this thread and came to post the almost exact opposite response as you. It was fucking terrible, the acting was cringeworthy although there were a few hysterically bad moments scattered in there to keep me on my toes;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NW39PthhaSI#t=245s

Convincing! Drama!

However, I remember playing some of the first Blood Omen game on PC years ago and quite liking it. Was very different to this 3D malarkey, isometric RPG/Action job IIRC?

Well, compared to most games that came out at that time, I find the voice acting to be quite exceptional. It's a PS1 game, what do you expect? The only other game with decent voice acting and story at that time was MGS 1, and even that hasn't aged very well. If you look at the sequels, Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance, while they may have declined in terms of quality in gameplay, the quality in voice acting has only gotten better and better. And I still stand by as the intro to Soul Reaver as one of my favourite intros ever, since traditionally you wouldn't usually expect the protagonist from the previous game you've played to make the evil choice as canon. (I know other games have done it before, but this was one of the most memorable examples in my opinion) And I also love the theme music that plays in the background. Yeah can I see how you might think of it as cheesy, but there's just some kind of retro, pre-millennium charm to it. It just appeals to me how unabashedly evil and overtly menacing it is.

Zipa:

anthony87:

Zipa:
The games were awesome, especially the story and voice acting, Simon Templeman's best work was as Kain I think.

Also René Auberjonois as Vorador, so good as well. Not to mention the elder god and mobieus and all the others.

René Auberjonois was Janos Audron. Vorador was done by Paul Lukather.

/LoK fanboy

Shit yeah you are right, and I should know better, I played the hell out of SR2 and LoK.

Bah, you're a Legacy of Kain fan in the first place. That fact alone means I can't let a little slip up of VA names make any impact. I mean honestly, how awesome is it to have a thread full of Legacy of Kain fans? It's only unfortunate that the series doesn't have more recognition considering it does almost everything right. Hell, the series has been the best example of voice acting in the entire medium of video games since 1997.

I would pay a company all my moneys if they started this series up again, even if they kickstarted it i would give money to that.

Hey, a Legacy of Kain thread! Fuck yeah! Love this series.

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