Biggest plot holes in games

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RedDeadFred:
Borderlands 2. Why don't they just turn off the new you station? You die once, you're gone for good. Better yet, why wouldn't Jack put his DNA into it so he couldn't die (after all, he has a massive amount of money)?

This never really bothered me because I don't think you're supposed to take the story that seriously (even though I actually thought the story was very good) but it's still a pretty big plot hole. I guess you could just say it's simply a gameplay mechanic and isn't part of the actual story at all.

Borderlands 2's writer actually said that this plot hole was his fault,since he is the one who added snarky dialog to the new u stations,and had he not done so,it would have seemed like a meta element,like how in rpgs when someone dies you can't resurrect him with *insert item here*

As for the OP,i can't think of many

TizzytheTormentor:
snip

I might be able to answer how the mutants get out. Vault 87 probably has many holes in the wall and the Lamplight caves are so expansive that they probably have alternate routes out. Although that is still very unlikely. Still it annoys me that they are even there in the first place since Vault Tec shouldn't even have F.E.V in the first place since it was supposed to be at Mariposa only. I highly doubt that the military would allow Vault-Tec to get a hold of F.E.V. As for the Enclave that one is quite stupid indeed, plus I don't even think the Enclave should've been there because unless they were all at the Chicago base.

Fallout 3. Like, the whole thing.
The supermutants have no way out of Vault 87. The Enclave have no way in to capture you. There's a cure for radiation now. There's perfectly human-like androids, which are apparently very common around Boston.
Don't even get me started on the original ending. What a mess.

Also, I don't really understand the outrage about DA2. It's not as bad as people make it sound. At least, I never thought it was.
Specifically, I don't understand why people are insistent that the Templars are nice to you the entire game. They aren't. You meet a lot of crazy ones that often try and kill you. Same with mages. Not all of them are good, and not all are bad. And the story doesn't let you side with the crazy lady whose name I forget. Because she's crazy. You can totally side with the Templars until she betrays you, though. You even get different ending cinematics for it. I don't know how people can say it forces you to help/like/side/work with mages. It really doesn't. You just can't work with the crazy templars.

Anyways.

RedDeadFred:
Borderlands 2. Why don't they just turn off the new you station? You die once, you're gone for good. Better yet, why wouldn't Jack put his DNA into it so he couldn't die (after all, he has a massive amount of money)?

Cut dialogue explains this, actually. Jack calls you up to directly mock you for using his own machines and says you're such a failure that he takes pity on you and keeps you alive for teh lulz. Later, when he's serious about killing you, Angel is keeping them online. Then, after you kill a certain person and really piss Jack off, he wants to kill you himself.
Dunno about why they don't bring him back to life, though. It may have been explained too, but I haven't seen anything.

Same thing with the oft-referenced Wilhelm fight. Jack wanted you to get the power core so he could completely take off Sanctuary's shield. I stopped watching ZP out of disgust when Yahtzee completely missed that and mocked the game for it. It's a really painfully obvious ploy, but a lot of people still think it's a plot hole. -sigh-

Sonic 2006 is a giant plot hole in general but.

How does Mephiles not go back and time and make her cry in some other method.

Legion:
Fallout 3 original ending is the worst one that I have ever encountered.

[spoiler=The ending]You are faced with a decision to go into a room full of lethal radiation in order to enter a code and prevent disaster. You are told it has to be you, and nobody else, and doing so will kill you.

You have the potential to have a super mutant and a ghoul with you at the end of the game. Both of them are not only immune to the negative effects of radiation, but are healed by it.

They will refuse to go into the room and enter the code because "It's your destiny" to do so.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
.

Actually, you can use Sargeant RL-3 who does it regardless. Of course it does the "you didn't learn sacrifice" but that's more of logical thinking rather than Sacrifice.

bloodrayne626:
Not so much a plot hole, but in FarCry3

what the hell happened to all the guards?

It just irked me a little. Not enough to be an "oh my god this game sucks because it missed a few details" moment (not like I have those, anyway), but still, what the hell?

yeah you werent the only one.. i was also like.. okay im gonna have to have a shootout out of this...but no.. you apparently killed everything in a major frenzy!.. thats atleast how i thought :P

Devoneaux:

Renegade Shepard:
I guess I should talk about that ending...

So thermal clips....

You guys see Tali's face?

Nothing's wrong with my game series, shut up.

On the mars mission, why did Cerberus bring land based vehicles? And if they brought them, where was the ship they brought them on? Wouldn't it have shown up on the SR2's scanners like every other Cerberus vessel does?

Who is Vega and how does he know Shepard?

So reapers attack earth and Shepard and Anderson start climbing around on the rooftops. Why? Why didn't they just take the stairs, how is this in any way faster or safer than the sensible thing?

So Legion and all his buddies have been on Rhannoc for 290 years. Why during that amount of time didn't they just pack up their shit and leave when the Quarians came? what is so valuable about a planet to a bunch of machines that they would be willing to risk everything just to keep it?

I can do this all day!

Okay, possible spoilers for ME3 in here.


What else you got?

Mass Effect 3's ending is the first one to pop into my head. No need to talk about it anymore, it's been talked to death.

Devoneaux:

Renegade Shepard:
I guess I should talk about that ending...

So thermal clips....

You guys see Tali's face?

Nothing's wrong with my game series, shut up.

On the mars mission, why did Cerberus bring land based vehicles? And if they brought them, where was the ship they brought them on? Wouldn't it have shown up on the SR2's scanners like every other Cerberus vessel does?

Who is Vega and how does he know Shepard?

So reapers attack earth and Shepard and Anderson start climbing around on the rooftops. Why? Why didn't they just take the stairs, how is this in any way faster or safer than the sensible thing?

So Legion and all his buddies have been on Rhannoc for 290 years. Why during that amount of time didn't they just pack up their shit and leave when the Quarians came? what is so valuable about a planet to a bunch of machines that they would be willing to risk everything just to keep it?

I can do this all day!

I have a shotgun.

Spec Ops.

That hole you fall through only to discover a minute later that you're on the top floor of a skyscraper.

...

...zing.

Assassins Creed 3. Why is Connor at anywhere doing anything remotely to do with the revolution? He has practically no stake in it, nor much of a reason to be involved aside from killing some dudes that burned down his village. Which was then rebuilt in just as poor a state.

RedDeadFred:
Borderlands 2. Why don't they just turn off the new you station? You die once, you're gone for good. Better yet, why wouldn't Jack put his DNA into it so he couldn't die (after all, he has a massive amount of money)?

This never really bothered me because I don't think you're supposed to take the story that seriously (even though I actually thought the story was very good) but it's still a pretty big plot hole. I guess you could just say it's simply a gameplay mechanic and isn't part of the actual story at all.

Are the NewU stations Hyperion technology? If so, then that's quite a big misstep for Borderlands 2.

Then again maybe Jack just doesn't want to go through plastic surgery again (or whatever he actually done to his face).

alphamalet:

Protocol95:

Rawne1980:
Dragon Age 2.

All the way through it you get drummed with "Mages are good .... Templars are bad".

Yet all the way through it the Templars are helpful and polite and the Mages are trying to eat my face.....

Kind of hard to follow a plot and take it seriously when it doesn't know what the fuck it's doing itself. In fact, the Templars don't turn "bad" until the very end and even then it's only 1 person .... who turns bad because of a corrupt sword .... made from metal Hawke found.

WHO WRITES THIS SHIT.

That is inaccurate. The game attempts to say "Some mages are good, some are bad and the same goes with templars". Not every mage in the game tries to kill you or someone else or just genreally be a jerk. For example Feynriel is an unfortunate apostate who will only do something bad if you indulged in some really horrible Video Game Cruelty Potential. For the templars there are a quite a few templars who are unabigiously evil. Take Ser Alrik, the templar who wanted to make all mages tranquil, which is considered by many of them a fate worse than death.

I agree to a certain extent, but I still believe that in light of DA:O, the templars vs mages plot felt very contrived. Think about it. In the tower mage origin story of DA:O, a mage uses blood magic and everyone freaks out! It was a big deal that didn't happen often! Even the fiance of the mage that uses blood magic abandons her trust of him and willingly submits to punishment for even associating with him. When you come back to the tower after it has fallen in DA:O, you run into mages that say they want nothing to do with blood magic or the rebellion that is taking place. DA:O did a good job of making you feel sympathetic to both the templars and mages while successfully making the delineation that negative actions were performed by a few bad apples on both sides.

Hop on over to Dragon Age II, and in the game's final act, every templar is order to kill every mage, which prompts every mage to turn into a blood mage. It felt so damn contrived and didn't match the tone of the original game at all. Not only that, blood magic was used at a far greater frequency in Dragon Age II. And for what reason? Didn't people fear it just as much? The writing in DA II was an absolute mess.

Alot of that was to show the reason for the conflict. Essentially templars fear blood magic, and so try harder to capture, imprison and possibly tranquilize every mage possible... as many codexs about blood magic and templars in both games refrence what happens when a group is on the run, hunted, assualted, and abused while simultaniously having a incredible but dangerous power at their hands? They go into no more to lose mode, use it, and go psyco. It is a cycle. templars harsher-mages scared-mages turn to blood magic-templars fear blood magic-templars harsher ect ect

deadman91:
Now this is a bit out but the fact that no one ever seemed to call attention to it pissed me off. In Modern Warfare 2, why is it that the Russian terrorists, perpetrating an act of terror in Russia (a region that really has supplied enough illegal weapons to maintain several wars since the fall of communism and immediately after a civil war which would have left even more arms floating around) buy their guns from a guy in Brazil? Seriously, why the fuck would you need to buy your guns from Brazil? I know it's just a deus ex machina so we'd have a level in the favellas, but it grated me nonetheless.

As I said, what really pissed me off was the fact no one else seemed to give it the same thought. Everyone else was too busy griping about nukes in space, or were unable to comprehend why that general bloke betrays you.

That bugged me as well, not to mention the bit about the oil rig workers being held hostage by the russians. Except the oil rig workers are russians so why would they bother holding them captive?

I think most of the problem lies with the fact that it's really unclear in MW2 and MW3 exactly what Makarov's reationship to the Russian Government is. Sometimes he hates them, sometimes he appears to be working directly with them. I've heard some people argue he's running the Russian Military by MW3. I really wanted to ask the IW guys exactly what's going on with that.

TheVampwizimp:

Devoneaux:

Renegade Shepard:
I guess I should talk about that ending...

So thermal clips....

You guys see Tali's face?

Nothing's wrong with my game series, shut up.

On the mars mission, why did Cerberus bring land based vehicles? And if they brought them, where was the ship they brought them on? Wouldn't it have shown up on the SR2's scanners like every other Cerberus vessel does?

Who is Vega and how does he know Shepard?

So reapers attack earth and Shepard and Anderson start climbing around on the rooftops. Why? Why didn't they just take the stairs, how is this in any way faster or safer than the sensible thing?

So Legion and all his buddies have been on Rhannoc for 290 years. Why during that amount of time didn't they just pack up their shit and leave when the Quarians came? what is so valuable about a planet to a bunch of machines that they would be willing to risk everything just to keep it?

I can do this all day!

Okay, possible spoilers for ME3 in here.


What else you got?

I'll concede to the first two not being plot holes (But they are still sloppy writing) however:

3: the desk shatters as it hits the wall, it's hard to see but it is what happens.

4: Again, Geth are hyper logical machines, the geth don't have that concept of "This is my home I will die defending it!" they have a concept of "The logistical value of this planet is equal to or greater than the combined value of our entire species, apparantly." And even if this were the case, why is it that the good geth never reach out and try to make nice with everyone else? Why not go directly to the council races and say "Help stop this war for us and we'll help you with the reapers?" I'm not saying this would work, but the fact that they never ever try this is dumb.

Rawne1980:
Dragon Age 2.

All the way through it you get drummed with "Mages are good .... Templars are bad".

Yet all the way through it the Templars are helpful and polite and the Mages are trying to eat my face.....

Kind of hard to follow a plot and take it seriously when it doesn't know what the fuck it's doing itself. In fact, the Templars don't turn "bad" until the very end and even then it's only 1 person .... who turns bad because of a corrupt sword .... made from metal Hawke found.

WHO WRITES THIS SHIT.

Every good Mage in Dragon Age 2: "We just want peace! We aren't all Maelificarum, We don't ALL practice Blood Magic!"
*and then*
"So...if it's Blood Magic they're expecting...It's Blood Magic they SHALL HAVE!!"

---

The romantic sub-plots in Force Unleashed and Gears of War (and potentially Halo). Starkiller saves his pilot because he's turned away from the Dark Side of the Force (or because of beastial Lust if you were into the dark side I guess) but as for Marcus and his support lady (who isn't even seen in GoW 1) and Chief and Cortana...I dunno, it felt like the romantic entanglement isn't there at all until you're told it is on the 11th hour. I'm sure there are a million other games that could go here when it comes to the romantic sub-plot that came from no-where.

Edit: SPEAKING OF ROMANTIC SUB-PLOTS FROM NO WHERE!!

Mass Effect:
Shepard: "I love you, Liara."

Mass Effect 2:
Shepard: "I'm sorry Liara but, I love Tali..."

Mass Effect 3:
Shepard: "I'm sorry Tali but I've been living a lie this whole time...I love Cortez"
Garrus: "DAMMIT SHEPARD, WHAT ABOUT ME!?" (should have been anyway)

Renegade Shepard:

Devoneaux:

Renegade Shepard:
I guess I should talk about that ending...

So thermal clips....

You guys see Tali's face?

Nothing's wrong with my game series, shut up.

On the mars mission, why did Cerberus bring land based vehicles? And if they brought them, where was the ship they brought them on? Wouldn't it have shown up on the SR2's scanners like every other Cerberus vessel does?

Who is Vega and how does he know Shepard?

So reapers attack earth and Shepard and Anderson start climbing around on the rooftops. Why? Why didn't they just take the stairs, how is this in any way faster or safer than the sensible thing?

So Legion and all his buddies have been on Rhannoc for 290 years. Why during that amount of time didn't they just pack up their shit and leave when the Quarians came? what is so valuable about a planet to a bunch of machines that they would be willing to risk everything just to keep it?

I can do this all day!

I have a shotgun.

Well I stole your thermal clips! >:D

Noelveiga:
Guys? Guys, look up what a plot hole is, then post.

It's not "characters made a decision that seems dumb or weird" and it's not "something that could have been explained but was left vague". Things that are not plot holes include:

In The Walking Dead

Or in Arkham City

Sheesh.

Real plot holes in games off the top of my head? Hm. Let's see... I'm coming up empty. I guess games tend to have simple plots, so it's relatively easy to keep them straight. There must be some, though...

"A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline"

Basically, the stupid action of a character can be a plot hole. Your point about Walking Dead is valid and so is the bit about Strange, to a point, but most observations here are correct.

But, before you reply, here's the captcha for this post: Agree to disagree.

Fallout 3 is one of my all time favourite games but the ending was pretty horrible. I tend to avoid getting that far when I replay.

Shoggoth2588:
[quote="Rawne1980" post="9.397503.16221460"]Dragon Age 2.

The romantic sub-plots in Force Unleashed and Gears of War (and potentially Halo). Starkiller saves his pilot because he's turned away from the Dark Side of the Force (or because of beastial Lust if you were into the dark side I guess) but as for Marcus and his support lady (who isn't even seen in GoW 1) and Chief and Cortana...I dunno, it felt like the romantic entanglement isn't there at all until you're told it is on the 11th hour. I'm sure there are a million other games that could go here when it comes to the romantic sub-plot that came from no-where.

Anya was in Gears of War 1, she was seen in the helicopter near the beginning and is in radio contact with him throughout the game, I'll admit that their romance was a bit out of nowhere but then again at the end of Gears 2 I sorta guessed they'd go that way with them for Gears 3.

Cheif and Cortana's isn't really a romantic relationship more of a very close friendship and working relationship, they've been together pretty much constantly for years and she helps him become a better soldier, I thought it was very well done in the series.

Resident Evil 6, Leon and bitch fall constantly fall farther down, from a cliff, to a lab to a mine to catacombs to another type of mine/catacomb, and then slide down a water slide, only to fall into a lake that isn't underground, it makes no fucking sense as they have been falling so much they should be pretty damn far underground at that time, also, how do Leon and Helena get onto a plane, or fake their deaths, I mean the organization they are working for has a person who is actively trying to arrest them, how does he not intercept any of their conversations that they are having with people working for the organization?

Devoneaux:

TheVampwizimp:

Devoneaux:

On the mars mission, why did Cerberus bring land based vehicles? And if they brought them, where was the ship they brought them on? Wouldn't it have shown up on the SR2's scanners like every other Cerberus vessel does?

Who is Vega and how does he know Shepard?

So reapers attack earth and Shepard and Anderson start climbing around on the rooftops. Why? Why didn't they just take the stairs, how is this in any way faster or safer than the sensible thing?

So Legion and all his buddies have been on Rhannoc for 290 years. Why during that amount of time didn't they just pack up their shit and leave when the Quarians came? what is so valuable about a planet to a bunch of machines that they would be willing to risk everything just to keep it?

I can do this all day!

Okay, possible spoilers for ME3 in here.


What else you got?

I'll concede to the first two not being plot holes (But they are still sloppy writing) however:

3: the desk shatters as it hits the wall, it's hard to see but it is what happens.

4: Again, Geth are hyper logical machines, the geth don't have that concept of "This is my home I will die defending it!" they have a concept of "The logistical value of this planet is equal to or greater than the combined value of our entire species, apparantly." And even if this were the case, why is it that the good geth never reach out and try to make nice with everyone else? Why not go directly to the council races and say "Help stop this war for us and we'll help you with the reapers?" I'm not saying this would work, but the fact that they never ever try this is dumb.

For your point on the Geth, they were actually keeping Ranoch and maintaining it specifically for their creators, they kept the planet in case the Quarians ever wanted to try a peace treaty.

Bad Jim:
Starcraft 2. Jim Raynor receives a prophesy from a protoss friend of his that Kerrigan, Queen of Blades and ruler of the Zerg, is vital to defeating the Xel'naga who will return to destroy everything.

Now you might think that her current form, in command of a million billion zerg, had a good chance of defending against the Xel'naga. But no, Jim decides to invade her homeworld and use a magic artifact on her, transforming her into her original form, a twenty something girl in command of roughly nothing. She's prettier, but looks aren't everything when there's a galactic apocalypse coming.

yeah did you play the first game? how bout brood wars? cause if you had you would know that Kerrigan as the queen of blades makes the.....i dont know what hes called i think hes an exiled xel'naga but not sure, look like a kind and gental person. so yeah that cure would be worse then the desease.

Any and every Resident Evil game. Remind me how was Umbrella trying to turn a profit by turning everybody into zombies, again? No, I know - the zombies are by-products. By-products of what? The Tyrant? So zombies are by-products of bigger zombies? And they're selling them rather than selling cheaper, easier, more practical means of destruction? Where do they get their funding from (or their credibility), considering they've never managed to make a single successful sale? How many times has Umbrella been shut down, anyway? How come the Raccoon thing takes place as early as RE1 (or Zero), Umbrella is shut down by RE4, but then we're by RE6 and the whole thing has managed to remain a secret? Also - trying to cover up a zombie apocalypse with another zombie apocalypse? You wanna take down the president but rather than simply shooting him you seek to destroy the world? The list goes on...

TheJJBL:

Devoneaux:

TheVampwizimp:

Okay, possible spoilers for ME3 in here.


What else you got?

I'll concede to the first two not being plot holes (But they are still sloppy writing) however:

3: the desk shatters as it hits the wall, it's hard to see but it is what happens.

4: Again, Geth are hyper logical machines, the geth don't have that concept of "This is my home I will die defending it!" they have a concept of "The logistical value of this planet is equal to or greater than the combined value of our entire species, apparantly." And even if this were the case, why is it that the good geth never reach out and try to make nice with everyone else? Why not go directly to the council races and say "Help stop this war for us and we'll help you with the reapers?" I'm not saying this would work, but the fact that they never ever try this is dumb.

For your point on the Geth, they were actually keeping Ranoch and maintaining it specifically for their creators, they kept the planet in case the Quarians ever wanted to try a peace treaty.

So why don't they just give it to them? The Quarians don't necessarily want to kill all of the Geth. They just want the damn planet back.

Devoneaux:

TheJJBL:

Devoneaux:

I'll concede to the first two not being plot holes (But they are still sloppy writing) however:

3: the desk shatters as it hits the wall, it's hard to see but it is what happens.

4: Again, Geth are hyper logical machines, the geth don't have that concept of "This is my home I will die defending it!" they have a concept of "The logistical value of this planet is equal to or greater than the combined value of our entire species, apparantly." And even if this were the case, why is it that the good geth never reach out and try to make nice with everyone else? Why not go directly to the council races and say "Help stop this war for us and we'll help you with the reapers?" I'm not saying this would work, but the fact that they never ever try this is dumb.

For your point on the Geth, they were actually keeping Ranoch and maintaining it specifically for their creators, they kept the planet in case the Quarians ever wanted to try a peace treaty.

So why don't they just give it to them? The Quarians don't necessarily want to kill all of the Geth. They just want the damn planet back.

I dunno, man, that admiral was pretty insistent.

One that's been bugging me since the end of Mass Effect 2 (haven't played 3, so maybe someone who has can sort this out for me), but it's established in the first game that the Citadel is the only (known) way for the Reapers to get into our Galaxy from Dark Space and yet at the end of Mass Effect 2 it's implied that a huge invasion is on it's way and that was the whole plot of Mass Effect 3 was it not? My question is how the hell did they get here? We shut down their only known way in in the first game.

EDIT: Never mind. I misunderstood what "Dark Space" meant.

ninjaRiv:

Noelveiga:
Guys? Guys, look up what a plot hole is, then post.

It's not "characters made a decision that seems dumb or weird" and it's not "something that could have been explained but was left vague". Things that are not plot holes include:

In The Walking Dead

Or in Arkham City

Sheesh.

Real plot holes in games off the top of my head? Hm. Let's see... I'm coming up empty. I guess games tend to have simple plots, so it's relatively easy to keep them straight. There must be some, though...

"A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline"

Basically, the stupid action of a character can be a plot hole. Your point about Walking Dead is valid and so is the bit about Strange, to a point, but most observations here are correct.

But, before you reply, here's the captcha for this post: Agree to disagree.

Fallout 3 is one of my all time favourite games but the ending was pretty horrible. I tend to avoid getting that far when I replay.

That Wikipedia entry is just very poorly written and utterly inaccurate. Instead, on TV Tropes:

"Note that a Plot Hole is inherently a contradiction: A Plot element that is merely left unexplained is not a Plot Hole unless its occurrence is impossible according to the setting's rules."

That is actually correct. When they say not to trust Wikipedia at face value they mean articles like this one.

canadamus_prime:
One that's been bugging me since the end of Mass Effect 2 (haven't played 3, so maybe someone who has can sort this out for me), but it's established in the first game that the Citadel is the only (known) way for the Reapers to get into our Galaxy from Dark Space and yet at the end of Mass Effect 2 it's implied that a huge invasion is on it's way and that was the whole plot of Mass Effect 3 was it not? My question is how the hell did they get here? We shut down their only known way in in the first game.

They just fly there directly somehow...Space magic that's how!

star ocean 3. love it to death. except the ending. the ending is concentrated bullshit. the bad guy wins, the universe is destroyed, and they all lived happily every after. and nothing is explained. you're left to speculate on what happened between those two events.

I think it would be quicker to list the games that don't have plot holes.

But the biggest one would have to be Heavy Rain. There are more holes than plot to be honest. Once the big mystery is revealed you realize how little thought actually went into the story. I was going to list all the plot holes, but changed my mind because that would take all day.

ALL OF ULTIMA 9!
"What's a Paladin?"................the creators need to take a serious look at their games before they release it.

Noelveiga:

ninjaRiv:

Noelveiga:
Guys? Guys, look up what a plot hole is, then post.

It's not "characters made a decision that seems dumb or weird" and it's not "something that could have been explained but was left vague". Things that are not plot holes include:

In The Walking Dead

Or in Arkham City

Sheesh.

Real plot holes in games off the top of my head? Hm. Let's see... I'm coming up empty. I guess games tend to have simple plots, so it's relatively easy to keep them straight. There must be some, though...

"A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline"

Basically, the stupid action of a character can be a plot hole. Your point about Walking Dead is valid and so is the bit about Strange, to a point, but most observations here are correct.

But, before you reply, here's the captcha for this post: Agree to disagree.

Fallout 3 is one of my all time favourite games but the ending was pretty horrible. I tend to avoid getting that far when I replay.

That Wikipedia entry is just very poorly written and utterly inaccurate. Instead, on TV Tropes:

"Note that a Plot Hole is inherently a contradiction: A Plot element that is merely left unexplained is not a Plot Hole unless its occurrence is impossible according to the setting's rules."

That is actually correct. When they say not to trust Wikipedia at face value they mean articles like this one.

I didn't say anything about a plot point being left vague or unexplained. That's down to poor writing, not plot holes. The definition you've got there from TV Tropes doesn't mention characters and, if anything, backs me up on that.

A character's decisions can be labelled a plot hole if it contradicts everything you know about the character. Like I said, your Walking Dead example was perfectly valid; That's not a plot hole. But the Hugo Strange one is only valid because it can be argued that nothing about his personality suggested he was really going to do what he said he was going to do.

You see character based plot holes in family movies and shitty action flicks a lot. I will admit that this is, again, down to poor writing and stretches the definition (any definition) of Plot Hole but it still counts.

ninjaRiv:

Noelveiga:
snip

I didn't say anything about a plot point being left vague or unexplained. That's down to poor writing, not plot holes. The definition you've got there from TV Tropes doesn't mention characters and, if anything, backs me up on that.

A character's decisions can be labelled a plot hole if it contradicts everything you know about the character. Like I said, your Walking Dead example was perfectly valid; That's not a plot hole. But the Hugo Strange one is only valid because it can be argued that nothing about his personality suggested he was really going to do what he said he was going to do.

You see character based plot holes in family movies and shitty action flicks a lot. I will admit that this is, again, down to poor writing and stretches the definition (any definition) of Plot Hole but it still counts.

I really don't want to be a dick about this, but it's a pet peeve of mine. A plot hole is a plot hole, inconsistent characterization is inconsistent characterization. Those are fairly technical and precise terms and they mean what they mean.

Can an instance of inconsistent characterization be so extreme as to cause a plot hole? Maybe, but I genuinely can't think of any examples. It's a different thing if a character reacts to information he or she doesn't have, for instance. That's a plot hole because there is a break in logic. Somebody doing something that is out of character is just that.

For the record, the key part in my quote was the "unless its occurrence is impossible according to the setting's rules" bit. Unless it's logically impossible for the depicted events to have happened in the way they are shown, it's not a plot hole, it's something else.

It gets fuzzy when it comes to ignored plot devices. Somebody pointed out that in Harry Potter time travel exists and is readily available to the characters, yet nobody thinks to use it to foil Voldemort's plans. That almost kinda works as a plot hole, but it's a bit messy around the edges, in that it's the result of a deus ex machina being used halfway through the story and not written off, so the bad writing happened in the deus ex machina bit rather than in the later ignoring of it. Still a plot hole, I guess.

Rawne1980:
Dragon Age 2.

All the way through it you get drummed with "Mages are good .... Templars are bad".

Yet all the way through it the Templars are helpful and polite and the Mages are trying to eat my face.....

Kind of hard to follow a plot and take it seriously when it doesn't know what the fuck it's doing itself. In fact, the Templars don't turn "bad" until the very end and even then it's only 1 person .... who turns bad because of a corrupt sword .... made from metal Hawke found.

WHO WRITES THIS SHIT.

I wouldn't say that's a plot hole, just bad uniniteresting writing.

Kirkwall was so shitty... mid game when a character says "the blight is over, you could go back to Ferelden" i picked the "sure i'll go back" without hesitation...
Of course "sure i'll go back" translates to "no, first i have to re-establish my family here, maybe later in my life i'll see Ferelden again...".

Playing as a mage however... that's the laziest POS ever... it's like Hello!!! Mage right here!!!!

Tough life being the Janitor of Kirkwall.

Noelveiga:

I really don't want to be a dick about this, but it's a pet peeve of mine. A plot hole is a plot hole, inconsistent characterization is inconsistent characterization. Those are fairly technical and precise terms and they mean what they mean.

Can an instance of inconsistent characterization be so extreme as to cause a plot hole? Maybe, but I genuinely can't think of any examples. It's a different thing if a character reacts to information he or she doesn't have, for instance. That's a plot hole because there is a break in logic. Somebody doing something that is out of character is just that.

For the record, the key part in my quote was the "unless its occurrence is impossible according to the setting's rules" bit. Unless it's logically impossible for the depicted events to have happened in the way they are shown, it's not a plot hole, it's something else.

It gets fuzzy when it comes to ignored plot devices. Somebody pointed out that in Harry Potter time travel exists and is readily available to the characters, yet nobody thinks to use it to foil Voldemort's plans. That almost kinda works as a plot hole, but it's a bit messy around the edges, in that it's the result of a deus ex machina being used halfway through the story and not written off, so the bad writing happened in the deus ex machina bit rather than in the later ignoring of it. Still a plot hole, I guess.

This was mostly what I was getting at. But also, I'm looking more at in depth character analysis and why sudden changes in personality would be plot holes. Granted, that's not the topic and probably isn't where any of this here conversation SHOULD go but that's where I was with that. Mostly, though, I was just disagreeing because little things like that make me confrontational.

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