Sexism in gameplay

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Aaron Sylvester:

JudgeGame:
Did we watch the same show?

At which point did anybody ever protect C18? Hell, Vegeta bloody beat her up FOR Cell so he could fight Cell's ultimate form.

C18 and Krillin were hot for each other for a long time and it's a recurring joke that C18 is the one wearing the pants so what you said makes no sense.

C18 does fight Buu so I don't know what's going on there. Fucking Chi-Chi and Bulma fight Buu.

As a matter of fact, I think the only time in GT a human fights seriously is when C18 fights Super C17 to avenge Krillin. I don't think Uub counts as human.

You completely missed the point of his entire post dude, did you read the last paragraph?? Here I'll quote it for you:

MagunBFP:
For the record I think the 3 points I just wrote are complete and utter bullshit, but they do show that if you are looking for sexism you will find it. Sadly this is what some people do, they believe there is inequality and will create mountains out of molehills to prove it.

This thread is a great example of someone digging for sexism/misogyny where it doesn't exist, someone looking to create an issue out of nothing and ironically making themselves the sexist/mysoginist :P

If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

So, either he doesn't actually remember the show that well and said that to cover his own ass. Or he's just making up crap to try and justify his point and said that there's a defense when someone calls him on it.

Which is it?

Mid Boss:
If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

Aaron Sylvester:

Mid Boss:
If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

Well! I didn't know we just make up crap to prove whatever point we wanted. Here I was crippling myself by sticking to what actually happened in the show! Silly silly me.

In Buffy The Vampire Slayer there was rampant sexism. She was supposedly the lead character but just ran around crying whenever there was danger or tried to seduce the villains. The most sexist thing I'd ever seen. She always had to be saved by whatever guy was closest at hand!

By the way, all three points I just said are utter crap so you can't call me on making shit up to prove my point. Worked for MagunBFP unless the rules are different when you don't agree with what the person is saying. In which case seems this whole thing is rather rigged against me.

chikusho:

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

That isn' sexist though, that's accurate. Physical tests between men and women have concluded that men are, as a general rule, faster and stronger at the start of, for example, a marathon, but women have longer endurance and are more resistant to pain at the end of the run.

And how is that even remotely relevant in a game where gates to hell open, there are bipedal, sentient cat-people and lizard-people and magic is an every day occurance? It is even less relevant since the protagonist of Oblivion obviously is a very special person, able to master in weeks what it takes most other people in the setting decades to master (especially when it comes to magic). As the final nail in the coffin of your argument, it isn't the cap that is maxed, it is the starting attribute, meaning that in the end a female character can be just as strong as a man.

I wouldn't exactly call it overt sexism on the part of Bethesda, but it definitely falls in the category of unintended sexism because something wasn't thought through enough. On the other hand, it is such a minor thing that I honestly think it doesn't matter much when put in context with how other games portray women.

ShinyCharizard:
When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

No, you have me backing you and most of /v/ too. Trouble is that while I don't really care all that much about sexism in games, mostly because it's, by and large, white knights and obsessively offended women calling out the smallest things, it still gets my goat to see it going on.

Oh its a sexism thread.....
Ninteodos work as an example....

all is explained right there. its Nintendo. you expect sense from them?

Mid Boss:
Snip

For the record at no time did I say sexism doesn't happen, all I did was point out that its possibly a smaller issue then it's victims like to make it.

First of all though... To add to your list there are...

Futurama
Blade Trinity
True Blood
Return of The King
Merlin
Sanctuary
Andromeda
NCIS
Farscape
Wanted
Angel
Sin City
Scott Pilgrim Vs The World
X-Men 3
Kill Bill
Tomb Raider
Aliens Vs Predator
G.I. Joe
The Avengers
Vandred
Xena
Dr Who
Dollhouse
Lost Girl
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil movies
Dead or Alive (the movie)

The list goes on really... though what interests me is that you seem to be focused solely on fighting. While I will grant you that female action super stars are under-represented this is possibly because the majority audience of the hyper violence we call action is male and a guy is more likely to identify with a male lead, thus it making more sense solely in terms of marketing to have Male action stars.

You're indisputably correct though in pointing out that women more often then not lose fights in most media, or are chivalrously looked after. That being said men are over represented in violent crimes, jobs, hobbies... so possibly (and definitely not without exception) men are represented as being stronger and more combat capable then women because a majority of the time they are.

Then we get into the double (and often confusing) standards of Chivalry... is it still polite for a guy to open a door for a woman or is it just rude? How about hitting a woman, is that worse then hitting a guy? If so why? Does it matter if she threw the first punch?

There are legitimate cases of sexism out there, but complaining about how the media portrays shows women in fictional fights really doesn't help you, especially considering if they suddenly brought out an Iron Woman movie with Tania Stark and Peter Potts you'd just complain about how its just a guy cast as a woman and even more sexist then the original.

Aaron Sylvester:

Mid Boss:
If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.

Super Princess Peach is blatantly misogynist because it perpetuates both the ridiculous notion that women have violent emotional outbursts while men don't and the notion that women use their emotions as tools to achieve their goals.

Mid Boss:

If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

So, either he doesn't actually remember the show that well and said that to cover his own ass. Or he's just making up crap to try and justify his point and said that there's a defense when someone calls him on it.

Which is it?

This looks like a question that I am uniquely qualified to answer... lets see if I can shed some light on this then.

The original 3 points that I made, were all true from a certain point of view. 18 is protected from Cell by Piccolo, Tien and Krillin with Piccolo and Tien fighting Cell so 18 can hide and escape, Krillin stays with her and prevents her from self-destructing. They are ultimately unsuccessful in their efforts to protect her, but they tried. Once Cell is forced to regurgitate 18 Krillin immediately rushes to her side and tends to her for the remainder of the battle (he wouldn't have done that for 17 so must have done it because she's a woman) Given the lack of other interaction action between them an arguement can be presented that she fell in love and then married her protector. Also the arguement that 8 is an android so can't get stronger is actually incorrect as she's technically a human-android hybrid and is capable of getting stronger as well as having babies. So if she's stronger then Piccolo and he fights Buu then it could be argued that the only reason 18 didn't was because she's a female.

Like I said its all a perspective... you can look at anything and twist it into a negative, or you can look at something and see a postive or even just something that is, it all depends on your point of view... doesn't anyone learn these things from Star Wars?

JudgeGame:

Aaron Sylvester:

Mid Boss:
If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.

Super Princess Peach is blatantly misogynist because it perpetuates both the ridiculous notion that women have violent emotional outbursts while men don't and the notion that women use their emotions as tools to achieve their goals.

Indeed my point does seem to go over your head Judge, I was responding to a comment that Android 18 was remarkably non-sexist in anyway... so I pointed out ways that she could be seen as a sexist character. If you looked at circumstances from a certain perspective. I wasn't commenting on DBZ as a series, or anime as a whole, I mean you can't say that the fan-service is anything but spank bank material. For the record though misogny and sexism aren't the same thing. The examples you make are good examples of sexism in Dragon Ball, not mysogny, there's not hate just perverts.

MagunBFP:

Mid Boss:
Snip

For the record at no time did I say sexism doesn't happen, all I did was point out that its possibly a smaller issue then it's victims like to make it.

First of all though... To add to your list there are...

Futurama
Blade Trinity
True Blood
Return of The King
Merlin
Sanctuary
Andromeda
NCIS
Farscape
Wanted
Angel
Sin City
Scott Pilgrim Vs The World
X-Men 3
Kill Bill
Tomb Raider
Aliens Vs Predator
G.I. Joe
The Avengers
Vandred
Xena
Dr Who
Dollhouse
Lost Girl
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil movies
Dead or Alive (the movie)

The list goes on really... though what interests me is that you seem to be focused solely on fighting. While I will grant you that female action super stars are under-represented this is possibly because the majority audience of the hyper violence we call action is male and a guy is more likely to identify with a male lead, thus it making more sense solely in terms of marketing to have Male action stars.

You're indisputably correct though in pointing out that women more often then not lose fights in most media, or are chivalrously looked after. That being said men are over represented in violent crimes, jobs, hobbies... so possibly (and definitely not without exception) men are represented as being stronger and more combat capable then women because a majority of the time they are.

Then we get into the double (and often confusing) standards of Chivalry... is it still polite for a guy to open a door for a woman or is it just rude? How about hitting a woman, is that worse then hitting a guy? If so why? Does it matter if she threw the first punch?

There are legitimate cases of sexism out there, but complaining about how the media portrays shows women in fictional fights really doesn't help you, especially considering if they suddenly brought out an Iron Woman movie with Tania Stark and Peter Potts you'd just complain about how its just a guy cast as a woman and even more sexist then the original.

Fighting is a great black and white example of sexism. Doesn't get bogged down and confused with femininity. As we've seen with Lightening, it's a murky area for some people.

.... No I think an Iron Woman movie would actually be pretty cool and I've never so much as hinted that that was the way I thought. You don't know me so don't try make assumptions in an attempt to insult me. Thanks.

I'm not getting into a debate over chivalry. It's dead.

"but complaining about how the media portrays shows women in fictional fights really doesn't help you"

The media is a reflection of what we think as a society. But, regardless, if we're suddenly moving from fictional fights, someone should have told me. Let's move to women in the military. Women have been active in two wars so far and have just now been approved, officially, for combat roles. Much to the ire of conservatives who believe that, even though several women have proven themselves in combat and won metals, and many have died in direct combat, they still aren't "fit" for front line combat. That they inhibit that essential bromance that develops between soldiers. Despite what those pesky little metals say, they just don't have the killer instinct that men have.

That women just aren't physically fit for combat. Man. I wish we had some sort of physical fitness test people had to pass before they got into the military. Apparently just because we already have one doesn't really mean anything.

Rapes are inevitable. Wow, really wish we had some sort of panel... like a military panel... that handled crimes like that that happen during combat. Man that would be nice. Oh we could train the women in hand to hand combat! That way they could fend off attackers. I can't believe the military doesn't train people in hand to hand combat.

Oh turn on Fox News. It's allll over conservative outlets and while watching it keep in mind it's a small issue possibly over blown by its victims.

And with that I'm out. I need sleep. Have fun.

Aaron Sylvester:
I love people who try to desperately make something SEEM sexist/mysoginist and then end up coming off as the most sexist/mysoginist person in the whole thread lol.

Actually the same could be said for a ton of feminist groups, groups which paradoxically end up demeaning women even further by making them look like helpless victims of everything, instead of lifting their image as strong individuals who can handle themselves lol.

BrotherRool:
The witcher. Practically codified sexually extorting women in gameplay terms

*sigh*

In Yahtzee's own words...

Some people might call The Witcher misogynistic, for the fact that every single woman in the game shows off a cleavage you could lose your dog in, and will jump on you at the slightest provocation, for a PG-13 sex scene, followed by a paradoxically explicit dirty postcard. Personally, I think it's less The Witcher's obvious hatred of women, and more the same misguided pretension to maturity that also causes the characters to cuss with every alternate word.

So yeah, you were saying?

Thanks that was an interesting quote, but I think Yahtzee was subtly wrong, what he was actually arguing is that the developers weren't misogynistic, but that's a different thing from whether the game is sexist or not.

For example check out this Cracked article
http://www.cracked.com/article_20202_6-hilariously-failed-attempts-at-making-comics-more-diverse.html

These were people who were actively trying to increase diversity and combat racism/sexism etc, but that doesn't change the fact that having a flamboyant gay sourcerer with HIV is a bad idea.

And I'm fully prepared to believe the developers are just idiots and not women-hating or even sexist, but nevertheless a game that actively rewards you for accepting sex with a women who is offering it so that you don't leave her to burnt alive at the stake by a mob is sexist.

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

JudgeGame:

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

JudgeGame:

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

Lol it's a bit of a stretch to say that I have no meaning in my life just because I think this topic in general is stupid.

Mid Boss:

Fighting is a great black and white example of sexism. Doesn't get bogged down and confused with femininity. As we've seen with Lightening, it's a murky area for some people.

.... No I think an Iron Woman movie would actually be pretty cool and I've never so much as hinted that that was the way I thought. You don't know me so don't try make assumptions in an attempt to insult me. Thanks.

I'm not getting into a debate over chivalry. It's dead.

"but complaining about how the media portrays shows women in fictional fights really doesn't help you"

The media is a reflection of what we think as a society. But, regardless, if we're suddenly moving from fictional fights, someone should have told me. Let's move to women in the military. Women have been active in two wars so far and have just now been approved, officially, for combat roles. Much to the ire of conservatives who believe that, even though several women have proven themselves in combat and won metals, and many have died in direct combat, they still aren't "fit" for front line combat. That they inhibit that essential bromance that develops between soldiers. Despite what those pesky little metals say, they just don't have the killer instinct that men have. Oh turn on Fox News. It's allll over conservative outlets and while watching it keep in mind it's a small issue possibly over blown by its victims.

Yes fighting is a great example how with enough PR and special effects you could try to convince everyone that a 60kg unarmed woman can go toe-to-toe with a dozen well trained, big, muscled guys and not only win but come out of it without a scratch? Sure it looks cool but not very accurate.

Society is a reflection of society. Media is a reflection of marketing, you get shown what someone thinks will sell ad space or movie tickets. No one wants to see Bruce Banner hunted and victimised by the military in the Hulk, but how would they react if it was actually real?

But moving one... many of the people opposing women being involved in the front lines are concerned that the standards required will be lowered for women, and they're quite right if the physical stength and combat requirments are lowered to allow any women to meet the standards then the overall standards and effectiveness is reduced. If there's no change then physically there's no problem. Psychologically though I'm not qualified to comment one way or the other, and if you are neither trained or experienced in either psychology, or the conditions of front-line combat you're just as unqualified as I am, except you appear to believe in the "inter-changability" of the sexes, which I disagree with. Also with the number of woman either applying and most importantly qualifying for front line roles I would agree thats its probably a small issue hyped up as an example of the "terrible-misoginistic" military

ShinyCharizard:

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

Lol it's a bit of a stretch to say that I have no meaning in my life just because I think this topic in general is stupid.

I didn't assume anything. You said it yourself.

JudgeGame:

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

So, pointing out we have no care about a topic that's been done to the point of everyone involved repeating themselves for the 30th time in 2 weeks is US showing we have an empty existence?

Your logic .... it's flawed.

I pointed out this was beating a dead horse in the hope that if someone else does happen to make a thread about sexism then rather than talk about games/situations that have already been covered they may try something new.

We didn't go out of our way just to come on a forum and point it out we were already here, browsing.

And no, I had nothing better to do. The kids were in bed, the wife was at work and it was 6am....

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

JudgeGame:

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

Lol it's a bit of a stretch to say that I have no meaning in my life just because I think this topic in general is stupid.

I didn't assume anything. You said it yourself.

?? I never said you assumed anything. And when did I say it myself?

MagunBFP:

Mid Boss:

JudgeGame:

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.

Super Princess Peach is blatantly misogynist because it perpetuates both the ridiculous notion that women have violent emotional outbursts while men don't and the notion that women use their emotions as tools to achieve their goals.

Indeed my point does seem to go over your head Judge, I was responding to a comment that Android 18 was remarkably non-sexist in anyway... so I pointed out ways that she could be seen as a sexist character. If you looked at circumstances from a certain perspective. I wasn't commenting on DBZ as a series, or anime as a whole, I mean you can't say that the fan-service is anything but spank bank material. For the record though misogny and sexism aren't the same thing. The examples you make are good examples of sexism in Dragon Ball, not mysogny, there's not hate just perverts.

You can't twist perspective to make C18 be a sexist portrayal of a woman. You can find some detail in her character that feeds towards a larger narrative with misogynistic implications, but you didn't and off the top of my head there is nothing about her that strikes me as that. You can change the facts and outright lie to create an alternate reality where C18 is sexist which is what you did and the fact that you did achieves nothing.

I have no interest in semantics. The difference between those two words is negligible to any discussion about gender issues. Regardless, I said misogyny and I meant misogyny. It takes a mind with a lot of contempt for women to come up with a character like Maron or play Bulma's constant sexual harrassment and humiliation for laughs and sex appeal.

I don't care about sexism in gaming because 99/100, it's something really small that you have to dig deep to find and doesn't mean anything, and if it's not, it gives the game a little character. I admit I'm not the fondest when things are sexist towards me in a mean-spirited way, or against my sexuality, I think that I find myself laughing hardest when I watch movies, playing games, or watching shows where people are free to say things that aren't cool, aren't PC. If they're not done in an extremely distasteful way, I can really enjoy them. I recognize that those opinions aren't okay, but I still enjoy the content.

Moooostly it's just because people are nitpicking though.

JudgeGame:
You can't twist perspective to make C18 be a sexist portrayal of a woman. You can find some detail in her character that feeds towards a larger narrative with misogynistic implications, but you didn't and off the top of my head there is nothing about her that strikes me as that. You can change the facts and outright lie to create an alternate reality where C18 is sexist which is what you did and the fact that you did achieves nothing.

I have no interest in semantics. The difference between those two words is negligible to any discussion about gender issues. Regardless, I said misogyny and I meant misogyny. It takes a mind with a lot of contempt for women to come up with a character like Maron or play Bulma's constant sexual harrassment and humiliation for laughs and sex appeal.

You can always look at things from another perspective, refusal to see something from a different point of view doesn't make your point of view correct, it just means you're incapable of reaching any agreement besides "agreeing to disagree" just is just lazy.

As for me not supplying sufficent detail to show you the possibility that things aren't as black and white as you think things are, well I'll get over it, its been a while since I've watched the Cell Saga and quite frankly I agree that 18 isn't a sexist character, but I'm aware that people see have a different perspective on things... hence our disagreement... you just made my arguement, cheers :D

Just because you have no interest in semantics doesn't make them anyless important, say what you mean or I'll assume you mean what you say. I'm not really sure that you know Akira Toriyama to really be able to say that he is a misogynist... certainly his body of work lacks anything that supports your claim. That is was childish and definitely sexist is definitley true, but it really just looks like I called you out on misogyny and you've created a hate and contempt that is very specifically not there.

Rawne1980:

JudgeGame:

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

So, pointing out we have no care about a topic that's been done to the point of everyone involved repeating themselves for the 30th time in 2 weeks is US showing we have an empty existence?

Your logic .... it's flawed.

I pointed out this was beating a dead horse in the hope that if someone else does happen to make a thread about sexism then rather than talk about games/situations that have already been covered they may try something new.

We didn't go out of our way just to come on a forum and point it out we were already here, browsing.

And no, I had nothing better to do. The kids were in bed, the wife was at work and it was 6am....

Has misogyny gone away suddenly? No. In which case yes we are going to go over the same points until people learn not to be misogynists. This is for the benefit of those who don't understand that meanly stereotyping women is a bad thing and should be grateful for it.

The ones who have the power to move the discussion along are the misogynists who refuse to allow change. It's regrettable and profoundly unjust but that's how the world works.

If we stop talking about this, we are solving nothing.

MagunBFP:

JudgeGame:
You can't twist perspective to make C18 be a sexist portrayal of a woman. You can find some detail in her character that feeds towards a larger narrative with misogynistic implications, but you didn't and off the top of my head there is nothing about her that strikes me as that. You can change the facts and outright lie to create an alternate reality where C18 is sexist which is what you did and the fact that you did achieves nothing.

I have no interest in semantics. The difference between those two words is negligible to any discussion about gender issues. Regardless, I said misogyny and I meant misogyny. It takes a mind with a lot of contempt for women to come up with a character like Maron or play Bulma's constant sexual harrassment and humiliation for laughs and sex appeal.

You can always look at things from another perspective, refusal to see something from a different point of view doesn't make your point of view correct, it just means you're incapable of reaching any agreement besides "agreeing to disagree" just is just lazy.

As for me not supplying sufficent detail to show you the possibility that things aren't as black and white as you think things are, well I'll get over it, its been a while since I've watched the Cell Saga and quite frankly I agree that 18 isn't a sexist character, but I'm aware that people see have a different perspective on things... hence our disagreement... you just made my arguement, cheers :D

Just because you have no interest in semantics doesn't make them anyless important, say what you mean or I'll assume you mean what you say. I'm not really sure that you know Akira Toriyama to really be able to say that he is a misogynist... certainly his body of work lacks anything that supports your claim. That is was childish and definitely sexist is definitley true, but it really just looks like I called you out on misogyny and you've created a hate and contempt that is very specifically not there.

The character of Maron in the TV show did not come from Toriyama's pen, she isn't present in the original comics. Bulma's sexual harrassment is taken to ridiculous levels in the TV show, in the manga there are only a few instances and they aren't as rapey as in the show. There is fair chance any version you recall will have had these scenes censored anyway. This is kind of irrelevant to the discussion but I thought I would clarify for your benefit.

You seem to not understand that there is a difference between differing perspectives and lying. Your arguments aren't wrong because they are different to mine. They are wrong because they are based on fantasy. It's hard to believe this needs any explaining.

There is something about you calling me out on misogyny but most of that sentence is beyond intelligible.

JudgeGame:

Aaron Sylvester:

Mid Boss:
If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.

For context, Goku is seen without his pants on 7 or 8 times, with his junk literally hanging out. In fact, Goku loses his trousers more often than they comment on Bulma's boobs. This is also the same series where when Goku tries to fall asleep in Bulma's lap he's baffled because she doesn't have balls. Do you REALLY think this is a strong candidate to imagine misogyny in? You could make a case it has a low opinion of men that barring Goku everyone else is too much of a pervert to ride the Nimbus. I mean hell, I could point out the only male characters in Sailor Moon are either flawlessly handsome or evil cross dressers because those are the only types of men who exist in that universe.

Seriously, if you want to comment on misogyny the New Tomb Raider, Twilight or Princess Peach but DRAGONBALL? Maybe its my pleasent existence but I don't tend to encounter much out and out misogyny in my day to life, gender stereotypes and sexism sure, but actual HATE? I dunno, maybe dealing with the whole race thing left me jaded. If it's still a pressing concern then by all means discuss it just... maybe a better example?

OT: Going for an off-kilter counter example (and bringing more flamebait) Dante in the new DmC. Imagine that opening sequence with a woman rather than a man and it becomes a lot more... yeah. I don't know if I'd say it out and out objectifies him as a lust object but he does seem designed to be a kind of sex symbol this time round (also a legitimate complaint about the game, kinda, though DMC3 Dante played the whole game with his abs on display)

EDIT: Late addition but before the reply, the fact it also opens with a threesome is preeeetty terrible as well, and this could probably be good fodder for a "what the hell, games, we're trying NOT to do this sexist bullsh*t" but isn't the case I'm making so here we gooooo

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Just to cherry pick, as this reminded me of a previous argument I had with someone...

A modifier like that is arguably justified given the real world examples of pro athletes, etc... however it's usually poorly handled. The only one which seemed to do it right was some horrifically bad D&D type (board & dice) game some guy put on the internet whose name I can't even remember. Most of it was rightfully ripped a new one for its subject matter (horrific gory rape etc) and a crazy detailed and supposedly sexist stats system.

However, the way the gender modifier worked was simply to tweak your ultimate maxima and the limits of your initial roll for various stats. Which is, well, basically real life.

Even an average female athlete would kick the ass of three of me (out of shape early 30s guy) eight ways to sunday and not even break a sweat. But in a number of highlightable areas, the very best female athlete still loses - slightly - to the best male (and vice versa). Just because of genetic matters of skeletal and muscular structure, fat distribution, cardiovascular issues etc. They're both far, far better than either would ever need to be in nature, but each major model variant of human appears to max out better - and, on average, without training, sits slightly higher or lower - in certain areas versus the other.

(And, similarly, for mental matters as well as physical; the brain is a squishy, blood filled organ after all. Note that these are but slight differences, and you have to be aware of this fact, lest you end up as some crazy, discriminatory min-max obsessive like Candie in Django)

Basically, you have a slight dis/advantage (depending on choice) when doing the initial roll, but can still come out with reasonably high (or low) numbers depending on how the dice fall anyway - a strong woman and an agile man both of level 1 on the same team isn't out of the question - and in-between, depending on how you choose to level up (or train), it begins to make little difference until you hit the final level cap. By which point it only causes minor variation in just HOW hard you're kicking everyone else's ass.

A system that worked that way wouldn't be sexist, no more than it would be considered speciesist for providing similar but starker variation for the various "races" (elf, human, dwarf etc; you could at the extreme have a dwarf who's a little weaker but more graceful than a notably strong but clumsy elf teammate for example... again, for similar genetic reasons).

But normally it seems to work in a much blunter manner, in that setting "Girl = 1" in your config file means certain cliche stats take an automatic no-matter-what 20% hit, and a smaller number of others are boosted 10%. That's not exactly realistic or even-handed.

Besides all that, most of the actual issues of sexism in games have entirely societal roots. The roles you play, the clothes you wear, how you're expected to behave, how others behave towards you, etc... That stuff's far more glaring and, sadly, will probably be far harder to fix :/

(Isn't it amazing, by the way, how many FPSes still default to or even enforce a well-built, often caucasian male player model? Even good ol' Quake 3, despite defaulting the same way because of the central character still supposedly being the Generic Space Marine of Doom thru Q2, allowed you to use whatever avatar mesh, skin and soundset you liked, with no intrinsic judgement, and had a very diverse set of built-in player models... I can't see any excuse for it at all. It's simply lazy and going for the _presumed_ greatest market share without giving any kind of crap about the _supposed_ minority demographics.)

CaptainMarvelous:

JudgeGame:

Aaron Sylvester:

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.

For context, Goku is seen without his pants on 7 or 8 times, with his junk literally hanging out. In fact, Goku loses his trousers more often than they comment on Bulma's boobs. This is also the same series where when Goku tries to fall asleep in Bulma's lap he's baffled because she doesn't have balls. Do you REALLY think this is a strong candidate to imagine misogyny in? You could make a case it has a low opinion of men that barring Goku everyone else is too much of a pervert to ride the Nimbus. I mean hell, I could point out the only male characters in Sailor Moon are either flawlessly handsome or evil cross dressers because those are the only types of men who exist in that universe.

Seriously, if you want to comment on misogyny the New Tomb Raider, Twilight or Princess Peach but DRAGONBALL? Maybe its my pleasent existence but I don't tend to encounter much out and out misogyny in my day to life, gender stereotypes and sexism sure, but actual HATE? I dunno, maybe dealing with the whole race thing left me jaded. If it's still a pressing concern then by all means discuss it just... maybe a better example?

OT: Going for an off-kilter counter example (and bringing more flamebait) Dante in the new DmC. Imagine that opening sequence with a woman rather than a man and it becomes a lot more... yeah. I don't know if I'd say it out and out objectifies him as a lust object but he does seem designed to be a kind of sex symbol this time round (also a legitimate complaint about the game, kinda, though DMC3 Dante played the whole game with his abs on display)

I don't know what your point is, at all. I wasn't even going after Dragon Ball. This was completely obvious from my last post so you don't have to get defensive. However, your argument that there are other more offensive things does nothing to absolve Dragon Ball and I don't see why you would think that.

I'm not really interested in tearing on a show that's over 20 years old because everything was more misogynist back then. Mind you, there were a lot of objectionable things in the show, so much so that it passed through a lot of censorship before I saw it as a child. I think that's my measuring yard. If a 1980s government finds treatment of women (not nudity, treatment) so barbaric and base that it feels it needs to censor it, that must be pretty misogynistic.

You also seem to be unaware that human beings process emotions in a very nuanced fashion and not as a set of binaries. Hate encompasses a great deal of biochemical impulses that manifest in various forms. Normalized debasement of women is one way to manifest hate and it's pervasive through all media and all culture. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take this so personally.

JudgeGame:

I don't know what your point is, at all. I wasn't even going after Dragon Ball. This was completely obvious from my last post so you don't have to get defensive. However, your argument that there are other more offensive things does nothing to absolve Dragon Ball and I don't see why you would think that.

I'm not really interested in tearing on a show that's over 20 years old because everything was more misogynist back then. Mind you, there were a lot of objectionable things in the show, so much so that it passed through a lot of censorship before I saw it as a child. I think that's my measuring yard. If a 1980s government finds treatment of women (not nudity, treatment) so barbaric and base that it feels it needs to censor it, that must be pretty misogynistic.

You also seem to be unaware that human beings process emotions in a very nuanced fashion and not as a set of binaries. Hate encompasses a great deal of biochemical impulses that manifest in various forms. Normalized debasement of women is one way to manifest hate and it's pervasive through all media and all culture. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take this so personally.

O.o I was trying to rationalise that it wasn't a good case-study for the point being argued and gave some sources for this, sorry if that sounded personal but it looked neccessary. While I may see hate as being a more obvious 'I dislike you openly on principle, now I'm going to hit you' thing; I can still see where you're coming from. But the problem is as far as I can see, it winds up being reciprocal and goes the other way.

Twilight is obviously misogynistic because Bella's a flat lucklustre character and from a male perspective we could consider it misandranistic as that, apparently, is what men want from women, to be lifeless ironing boards. Same thing applies to that... werewolf.. guy who's name I can't remember. His appeal is that he's shirtless, which objectifies men and insults women.

Essentially, all I'm looking for is comparing examples and I think that sticking to Dragonball because sarcasm fails to translate well over the internet is not the ideal.

JudgeGame:

The character of Maron in the TV show did not come from Toriyama's pen, she isn't present in the original comics. Bulma's sexual harrassment is taken to ridiculous levels in the TV show, in the manga there are only a few instances and they aren't as rapey as in the show. There is fair chance any version you recall will have had these scenes censored anyway. This is kind of irrelevant to the discussion but I thought I would clarify for your benefit.

You seem to not understand that there is a difference between differing perspectives and lying. Your arguments aren't wrong because they are different to mine. They are wrong because they are based on fantasy. It's hard to believe this needs any explaining.

There is something about you calling me out on misogyny but most of that sentence is beyond intelligible.

Ok lets get this perspective stuff cleared up first since it seems to be a problem for you...

Obi-wan said Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father. Which technically is a lie, however, from a certain point of view the the person Anakin was at one point died when he fell to the dark side and he became Vader. So Obi-wan was being truthful metaphorically... which means he wasn't actually lying.

Still not convinced? Well here's something thats even easier... It's now 27 minutes past midnight on the 30th of January. If you look at your clock it probably says something different. I'm not lying about the time and neither is your clock, but how can we both be right? Our perspective on time.

Thats perspective, if you have any more confusion on how someone can have the same facts and see something different actually try to pretend that you're not irrefutably right and look again.

Calling you out on mysogyny... I said its different from sexism and you should use the correct words to describe your arguement, and you came up with some bullshit about Bulma's sexual harrassment and her tits to require a mind with alot of contempt for women. Then I said none of his other work demonstrates this contempt.

So what you're saying then is that some other artist is contemptous of women, but you'll never be able to actually support that because you don't know who made those scenes so "rapey" in the anime. Look I've seen many of those scenes, I'm not going to say I've seen them all, but they're not rapey, pervy yes, questionable for a kids show definitely but as Captain Marvelous pointed out Goku had his junk out even more often then Bulma's tits and you haven't even mentioned how terrible those scenes are. So you're either a hypocrite (sexism is bad against women but meh against males) or you find the female body especially objectionable which suggests you have deeper issues then just seeing mysogny where there is none.

But as I said its early here, time for me to crash... if you replay I'll look at it when I get up.

TJC:
-snip-

To provide a bit of context, many Japanese game studios--even the big ones--have been known to have...less than enlightened depictions of women, and are less likely to be concerned about it. For example, Team Ico has produced some of the most renowned video games in the last ~10 years in the way of both aesthetics and narrative. However, given the not-so-subtle elements in their stories, it's clear why their games haven't impressed the feminist crowd. In Shadow of the Colossus, the girl is dead and the guy is out to try and save her--what a shocking way to start a game. In Ico, you are a boy who is leading a girl by the hand through a maze of a temple because there is absolutely nothing she can do to help herself. She can't jump or climb without being instructed to, she can't defend herself or even hide, and she can't help you figure anything out. She's a mindless puppet you are literally dragging through the game who has no purpose except being an extra burden to watch out for.

Not only that, the guy from Team Ico leading the development of The Last Guardian stated that the reason they're going after a male protagonist in the game instead of a female (to break their boy's club streak) is because girls are weaker than boys and might not be able to tackle the physical labors the game would put her through. And not only that, some parts of the game would feature her climbing up stuff, and that would be terribly awkward to be seeing up her skirt during those times. Because God forbid she just wear trousers, and I never would have guessed that in a game where the main character has teamed up with and rides a giant griffin there would be some unusual or fantastical feats of physical prowess. You need some degree of realism to keep that giant griffin in check, amirite?

You wouldn't catch an American or European developer saying something like that in a million years. And if they did say it, they'd be promptly removed from the project and their studio would begin cleaning up the mess as soon as possible. And yet it came out of Japan, just last year. Not that I'm saying everything that comes out of Japan is sexist, however if I had to put every part of the industry on a spectrum of "sexism," I think most Japanese developers would land themselves on the more "sexist" end.

Anyway, now to your challenge of finding games that have sexism in gameplay. Well Ico as I mentioned, there isn't really anything you can call dragging a completely incapable female character throughout a game by the hand except sexist. As cool as the environments and storytelling might be, you really can't get around how messed-up that is. Also, and I don't know if it's true, but I heard in the early Pokemon games that featured female pokemon, the females always had slightly lower stats than the male pokemon of the same level. And...that's all I've got for now. Toodles~

MagunBFP:

Mid Boss:
Snip

For the record at no time did I say sexism doesn't happen, all I did was point out that its possibly a smaller issue then it's victims like to make it.

First of all though... To add to your list there are...

Futurama
Blade Trinity
True Blood
Return of The King
Merlin
Sanctuary
Andromeda
NCIS
Farscape
Wanted
Angel
Sin City
Scott Pilgrim Vs The World
X-Men 3
Kill Bill
Tomb Raider
Aliens Vs Predator
G.I. Joe
The Avengers
Vandred
Xena
Dr Who
Dollhouse
Lost Girl
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil movies
Dead or Alive (the movie)

In several of the ones you listed here, men still populate the lead characters and the majority of the cast, with just a few female sprinkled in there for flavor (NCIS, Avengers[1], and Doctor Who come to mind[2] To me, that sort of thing is falling into the trap of assuming that because we can sprinkle a few strong female characters into a story, we have as a society gotten over the gender roles and conventions of old.

But really, if we are truly over all this, then we shouldn't be getting a sprinkling of female characters. It would be either closer to an even split, or the characters wouldn't so obviously be there to be the "token females." There would be no "tokens," only characters. And stories that do have female leads wouldn't be about the lead character being a female. The Lord of the Rings had a male lead, but never did the movie consciously address any "issues" inherent to being a male. The story wasn't about Frodo being a guy, it was about him being the ringbearer. So many movies with female leads weave being a female into the narrative. It's as though they're afraid something will be missing if they don't in some way bring being a female into the narrative--like having her fight guys who are belittling her for her sex, or making it a story point that the villain is expecting a male but lo! In comes the unexpected female to be the hero!

And the same goes for racial minorities. We make a few movies like Remember the Titans or the Blind Side and celebrate how "over" racism we are, but who is almost always the lead character in an action movie? A white guy. You'll have the token black sidekick or friend for added touches of badass or comedy (because, as Moviebob once accurately pointed out, those are about the only flavors Hollywood will take black people in), but otherwise like females in lead parts you can't have a black guy in a lead role without the story somehow addressing that he isn't white. I can think of a few action movies with non-token black leads, but again that's just falling into the other trope of black characters having to either be comic relief or total badasses.

I will think we have gotten over all this when stories are comfortable having female or black or hispanic or Asian leads without having to explain themselves. When the story can unfold as normally and as uninvolved in social or gender politics as if the lead were a white guy.

[1] Yes I realize departing from the original characters would have defeated the purpose, but I'll soon address what I mean by listing this one.
[2] While I do love the way Who is handling female characters as compared to the classic Who, by sticking with a nearly all female sidekick cast they inevitably end up using the "female gets caught so the lead male has to rescue her" trope way more than I feel is necessary. That's not to say I don't love the show or the characters any less than I already do, it's just something that comes up as a story element way too often, I feel.

Lilani:

But really, if we are truly over all this, then we shouldn't be getting a sprinkling of female characters. It would be either closer to an even split, or the characters wouldn't so obviously be there to be the "token females." There would be no "tokens," only characters. And stories that do have female leads wouldn't be about the lead character being a female. The Lord of the Rings had a male lead, but never did the movie consciously address any "issues" inherent to being a male. The story wasn't about Frodo being a guy, it was about him being the ringbearer. So many movies with female leads weave being a female into the narrative. It's as though they're afraid something will be missing if they don't in some way bring being a female into the narrative--like having her fight guys who are belittling her for her sex, or making it a story point that the villain is expecting a male but lo! In comes the unexpected female to be the hero!

Not to get all gender theory nitpicky on you, but this argument can be taken either way. If a game features a female protagonist, shouldn't it at least address the fact that she is a woman in some way? I mean, Lord of the Rings features a really heavy-handed theme about male bonding and friendship: Both with Sam and Frodo and with Legolas and Gimli, men who are ready to give up their dreams of a stable life with a good woman (Sam even addresses this specifically in the Two Towers) in favor of doing what is right and finding the needed companionship and caring with their fellow guys.

Obviously, a female lead should be more than just a woman, but it could be argued that just making her "a soldier" or "an adventurer" isn't really promoting female protagonists, it is just a palette swap of genders. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your idea that we need to downplay the fact that a female lead is a female and that that somehow makes her radically different from a male lead (via the inclusion of "I thought you were a guy" or some sorry attempt at a rape attempt/sexual harassment-storyline).

Let us look at one of the best female leads ever: Kate Archer. She is portrayed as a capable agent and that's the central part of the storyline, Kate doing her job and succeeding where most others fail. But the fact that she's a woman is also ever present and the game takes its' time to address the issue of being a woman in a man's world (and does it pretty well, considering how old the game is).

TL DR: In a good protagonist the choice of gender is informed and has a purpose other than marketing (ie. "Guys only like to play 30-something, brown haired dudes" or "If I am gonna stare at an ass for 30 hours, I want it to be a hot girls latex-clad ass"), that gender plays a part or is acknowledged throughout the story.

My main problem with the game is that they seemed to think that women want to play as princess peach. It's like how businesses think that to make products "girl friendly" they have to make it pink and cover it in diamonds, rather than actually asking us what kinds of things we want. Most of the time I think we're fine with the original products. it's not like black is too dark for us and we need an alternative.

Women who design/make products for women sell better than stuff dripping in pink and diamonds. I think developers of games should either just do more research on what kinds of things women like in games or just hire more of them and/or put them in charge of products if people want to see a change.

I also sort of wish that developers would walk outside and see what kinds of clothes women actually wear before deciding what their characters wear.

When I see a gay/bi person in video games that's essentially a walking stereotype i.e Zevran from DAO, I don't scream homophobia and call the gaming community homophobic. The reality is that when most games are made and played by white, male, heterosexuals, characters that don't get that mold tend to go into token/stereotype country simply because it's hard for the above to get into their shoes. This is why women characters tend to be either men with tits or love interests for the main character, or in my case, how homosexuals tend to be defined by their orientation. The creators will draw inspiration from their experiences and expectations, which are obviously biased but not bigoted, they may actually have good intentions by trying to expand their horizons. Personally, if you want to see better examples of (insert minority here) work for gaming company, or try to change perspectives.

Personally, I find this entire issue to be blown out of proportion. Yes, there is sexism, racism, and homophobia in video games, but it's not to the extent that a lot of people make it out to be. There are problems with how minorities are viewed, but they're getting more and more of a place in the gaming industry, and the more that these issues are addressed with a critical eye from BOTH sides, the better.

Pretty much every single time you played as Catwoman in Arkham City. Even the idle animation was disgusting.

Bayonetta also does this to an extent but she actually ends up being one of the better female characters this generation because of it. She takes on enemies that dudes would shit themselves if they were in her situation. She can also transform into a freaking black panther.

Lilani:

MagunBFP:

Mid Boss:
Snip

For the record at no time did I say sexism doesn't happen, all I did was point out that its possibly a smaller issue then it's victims like to make it.

First of all though... To add to your list there are...

Futurama
Blade Trinity
True Blood
Return of The King
Merlin
Sanctuary
Andromeda
NCIS
Farscape
Wanted
Angel
Sin City
Scott Pilgrim Vs The World
X-Men 3
Kill Bill
Tomb Raider
Aliens Vs Predator
G.I. Joe
The Avengers
Vandred
Xena
Dr Who
Dollhouse
Lost Girl
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil movies
Dead or Alive (the movie)

In several of the ones you listed here, men still populate the lead characters and the majority of the cast, with just a few female sprinkled in there for flavor (NCIS, Avengers[1], and Doctor Who come to mind[2] To me, that sort of thing is falling into the trap of assuming that because we can sprinkle a few strong female characters into a story, we have as a society gotten over the gender roles and conventions of old.

But really, if we are truly over all this, then we shouldn't be getting a sprinkling of female characters. It would be either closer to an even split, or the characters wouldn't so obviously be there to be the "token females." There would be no "tokens," only characters. And stories that do have female leads wouldn't be about the lead character being a female. The Lord of the Rings had a male lead, but never did the movie consciously address any "issues" inherent to being a male. The story wasn't about Frodo being a guy, it was about him being the ringbearer. So many movies with female leads weave being a female into the narrative. It's as though they're afraid something will be missing if they don't in some way bring being a female into the narrative--like having her fight guys who are belittling her for her sex, or making it a story point that the villain is expecting a male but lo! In comes the unexpected female to be the hero!

And the same goes for racial minorities. We make a few movies like Remember the Titans or the Blind Side and celebrate how "over" racism we are, but who is almost always the lead character in an action movie? A white guy. You'll have the token black sidekick or friend for added touches of badass or comedy (because, as Moviebob once accurately pointed out, those are about the only flavors Hollywood will take black people in), but otherwise like females in lead parts you can't have a black guy in a lead role without the story somehow addressing that he isn't white. I can think of a few action movies with non-token black leads, but again that's just falling into the other trope of black characters having to either be comic relief or total badasses.

I will think we have gotten over all this when stories are comfortable having female or black or hispanic or Asian leads without having to explain themselves. When the story can unfold as normally and as uninvolved in social or gender politics as if the lead were a white guy.

I can't fault your logic, I can only point out that the list was of shows/movies where there was a female who fights a main/titled character and either holds her own/doesn't lose because she "just a woman"/wins the fight. At no point was I trying to say that women were equally represented or leading the show.

Dr Who does use the "sidekick gets kidnapped and the Doctor has to save them" plot device fairly regularly... but I've never actually recently seen that as "the sidekick is a female and so got herself captured" The companion is usually captured because they're the companion, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. You are yourself perpetuating the female victim stereotype by assuming that because she's female, and needs saving, that its because she's female that she needs saving. I'm more likely to call the show sexist because they don't ever have a male primary companion. Also Rose, Donna and Amy have kicked just as much ass as the Doctor has... it's just his show.

The biggest problem with racism or sexism or anything like that is you can't celebrate difference without first pointing out that there is a difference.

[1] Yes I realize departing from the original characters would have defeated the purpose, but I'll soon address what I mean by listing this one.
[2] While I do love the way Who is handling female characters as compared to the classic Who, by sticking with a nearly all female sidekick cast they inevitably end up using the "female gets caught so the lead male has to rescue her" trope way more than I feel is necessary. That's not to say I don't love the show or the characters any less than I already do, it's just something that comes up as a story element way too often, I feel.

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