Sexism in gameplay

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chikusho:

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

That isn' sexist though, that's accurate. Physical tests between men and women have concluded that men are, as a general rule, faster and stronger at the start of, for example, a marathon, but women have longer endurance and are more resistant to pain at the end of the run.

Even biologically-accurate observations can be misinterpreted as sexist by people who are trying to be overly politically correct.

Gethsemani:

And how is that even remotely relevant in a game where gates to hell open, there are bipedal, sentient cat-people and lizard-people and magic is an every day occurance? It is even less relevant since the protagonist of Oblivion obviously is a very special person, able to master in weeks what it takes most other people in the setting decades to master (especially when it comes to magic). As the final nail in the coffin of your argument, it isn't the cap that is maxed, it is the starting attribute, meaning that in the end a female character can be just as strong as a man.

I wouldn't exactly call it overt sexism on the part of Bethesda, but it definitely falls in the category of unintended sexism because something wasn't thought through enough. On the other hand, it is such a minor thing that I honestly think it doesn't matter much when put in context with how other games portray women.

Well, for one it's relevant to the setting, nature, culture and personal stories of the societies, races, species and characters you meet as well as the one you choose to create. Secondly it's relevant to the structure of a western style RPG where stats form a starting point form a template towards a possible play-style. Finally, it's relevant because having aspect of realism in a fantastical setting provides a relateable perspective from which to interpret the events taking place in front of you.
Also, as a sexism issue it's completely irrelevant because the fundamental structure of the game allows you to shape those stats whichever way you want to, as you are saying in your post (just like in the real world, where nothing is forbidding a woman to be physically stronger than any man).
Also, I wasn't making an argument at all, so what are you talking about again?

Rawne1980:

ShinyCharizard:
When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

Nope, you're not. I too can't seem to bring myself to give a single flying fuck.

I do believe this is relevant to this topic though....

image

How many threads have we had over this and i'm still seeing the exact same debates we've seen in every single other "sexism in games" thread.

If you are going to start a new thread about it at least cover ground we haven't already seen at least 30 times in the past 2 weeks.

I have to agree. Over the last year hardly a week has gone by without some form of sexism debate which never goes anywhere expect the old pointless arguments. Frankly at this point we've broken all the sticks and have no horses left in the stable /silly analogy.

JudgeGame:

Aaron Sylvester:

Mid Boss:
If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.

Super Princess Peach is blatantly misogynist because it perpetuates both the ridiculous notion that women have violent emotional outbursts while men don't and the notion that women use their emotions as tools to achieve their goals.

Again, misogyny does not equal sexism. You may claim as much as you like that the difference is only semantic but that will not make it true. Go and look up the definitions. They are very different things and while sexism can be explained by stupidity, laziness, a lack of empathy or social conditioning, misogyny is hatred of women pure and simple.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
The point is if you start out with an expectation of something you will only see evidence that confirms the opinion you already had before you started your research. It's called confirmation bias.

And are you saying women don't ever have violent emotional outbursts? Or that no woman ever faked crying to get what she wanted? Ever? In the whole of Earth's history? Are women special beings totally without flaws or human foibles and weaknesses?

This is the problem with some so-called modern "feminists", they have all the same opportunities as men (in the west at least) but still want to be thought of as victims of some imagined conspiracy and therefore somehow oppressed and deserving of special treatment. All the while ignoring real world statistics of female violence or excusing it by claiming the "patriarchy drove her to it", so no matter what a woman does it is still somehow mens fault.

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Lolwut, that actually happened?

You know what I think of sexism in Mario?

Is Mario the real world? No. Does Mario try to portray or reflect the real world? No.

So whether it's sexist or not is irrelevant because Princess Peach being kidnapped by Bowser (besides being only a plot device) is understandable in the world of Mario. Not to mention all the other castles are filled with fucking Toads, which I think are male. The fact is, Princess Peach is vulnerable, is royalty, is all of those things, and therefore it makes sense that Bowser would kidnap her. If anything the games show Mario's ineptness at preventing her from being kidnapped.

I haven't played the game with her as protagonist, so I'm not going to comment on that except to say there are plenty of male characters whose main power is uncontrollable rage in some form or another.

I'm getting sick of people making issues out of non-issues. Princess Peach is a plot driver. If she were an expensive jewel the games would be no different except for the comedic sexual tension. Mario is set in its own universe and does not reflect the modern world. Princess Peach is just a vulnerable female, and there's no reason she shouldn't be given that she is a PRINCESS.

TJC:
So apparently reddit is having a bad effect on me because after yet another thread about Anita Sarkessian I was compelled to do a thread about this topic on my own but this time it's with a twist.

I think we can all sorta agree that blatant sexism and misogyny in narration is pretty bad, no matter the medium, right?

It depends if its intentional or not. Case in point, there is blatant racism and misogyny in the game The Suffering: Ties That Bind. However in the case of that game, it is done intentionally to add personality to two of the characters, Luther Stickwell and Copperfield

TJC:

I mean tropes can be used pretty much universally in books, films and video games. But the thing is video games are special because of their interactivity and there are only few games that are inherently misogynistic in terms of gameplay. Yes, there are quite a few games which feature horrible and frankly stupid tropes of female character and do depict women in quite a sexist way. And if we seperate video games in terms of this interactivity we'll find that there aren't that many games which depict misogyny through gameplay (aside from porn games, I guess :/ )

Frankly, I can think of one off the top of my head:

Super Princess Peach on the Nintendo DS

image

So we have finally a reversal of roles after all these years and her only power is SUPER PMSing? What the hell? It's been established before that she can use magic (Mario RPGs) and can kick ass (smash bros) and fucking fly (Super Mario Bros 2) and you give her RAGING EMOTIONS as gameplay mechanic, implying women are cunning, effectively heartless beasts that use emotions like other would use tools to control everyone around them? What the fuck, Nintendo, what the flying fuck?

Really? THAT is misogyny? Give me a break, sexist maybe but certainly not misogyny. You want to see misogyny in a game? Look at the game[1] I just talked about, and watch the video about Luther Stickwell(aka "The Creeper") that I just linked. That is real misogyny, not this silly Nintendo game that your looking to much into. smh

TJC:

... There is no way that this thread will derail in any way, isn't there?

No, how could it derail when you just used the two words "sexism" and "misogyny" interchangeably as if they were the same thing.

[1] The Suffering: Ties That Bind

I'm surprised that it took this long for the majority to discover that anyone can make sexism out of anything if they really look hard enough, or even make something out of nothing. It's a tired discussion, sure, but it doesn't really bother me. I read a bit here and there and you know what, this controversy is good. What I DON'T want to see, though, is that game developers/writers feel that in order to appeal to a wider audience, they need to start making everything politically correct, which is bullshit - no other 'art' medium should have to conform to it, and neither should games. I see it already happening, not that there's anything wrong with making a politically correct game, just as long as it isn't forced in to sell to the masses if the original intent wasn't to be so.

But games are getting expensive to make, publishers need to make profits, and in the end there will also be a tug-of-war between the violence, sex & isms people want to see, and that which is safe enough to portray that everyone will like it.

Reaper195:

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Lolwut, that actually happened?

Yeah.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

More accurately, women tend to have higher personality and willpower (good for magery) and men have higher endurance and strength (good for warriors), with exceptions (Orcish women have abysmal personality, even worse than Orcish men) and oddities (female Argonians and Orcs are smarter than the men, with the rest of the races tied).

It didn't really matter, though, because the skill ceilings were identical.

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

JudgeGame:

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

Maybe I've used up most of my caring towards the topic in the fifty other threads.

It's natural to care less about a problem as time goes on if it's always talked about but never truly addressed. If you're actively addressing it yourself (Mother Theresa and the poor, as an extreme example) or witnessing your caring having an actual effect (donating to a charity and seeing the results) or if the issue isn't talked about constantly all the time (elections), then it makes sense to keep caring. If the above three conditions fail (say, our observing and discussing sexism in games), then it becomes something to live with. Continuing to care just makes you obsessive.

If anything, we NEED the people who don't care to flood the threads and say so. Maybe the discussion amongst those who still care can be relegated to ONE thread, leaving the overloaded rest of us to have a break and regain our caring. It's much easier to ignore one thread rather than five.

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

JudgeGame:

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

Gethsemani:

chikusho:

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

That isn' sexist though, that's accurate. Physical tests between men and women have concluded that men are, as a general rule, faster and stronger at the start of, for example, a marathon, but women have longer endurance and are more resistant to pain at the end of the run.

And how is that even remotely relevant in a game where gates to hell open, there are bipedal, sentient cat-people and lizard-people and magic is an every day occurance? It is even less relevant since the protagonist of Oblivion obviously is a very special person, able to master in weeks what it takes most other people in the setting decades to master (especially when it comes to magic). As the final nail in the coffin of your argument, it isn't the cap that is maxed, it is the starting attribute, meaning that in the end a female character can be just as strong as a man.

I wouldn't exactly call it overt sexism on the part of Bethesda, but it definitely falls in the category of unintended sexism because something wasn't thought through enough. On the other hand, it is such a minor thing that I honestly think it doesn't matter much when put in context with how other games portray women.

I don't get it? The guy said there are physical differences between males and females. And someone should not be called sexist for saying there is a difference. Yet you say, I think, because it's a work of fantasy everyone should be the same? I don't get that? They chose to add some realism to a fantasy world. So unless reality is sexiest I don't get how that can be considered sexist?

The rest of this boils down to "yeah, I don't get how that goes against what he said."

TJC:

I think we can all sorta agree that blatant sexism and misogyny in narration is pretty bad, no matter the medium, right?
I mean tropes can be used pretty much universally in books, films and video games. But the thing is video games are special because of their interactivity and there are only few games that are inherently misogynistic in terms of gameplay. Yes, there are quite a few games which feature horrible and frankly stupid tropes of female character and do depict women in quite a sexist way. And if we seperate video games in terms of this interactivity we'll find that there aren't that many games which depict misogyny through gameplay (aside from porn games, I guess :/ )

Whilst everyone condemns misogyny it appears that misandry is not only encouraged but welcomed in all forms of the media depicting women degrading men, including women being violent towards men is meant to be a funny past time (eg Bobbitt). The hypocrisy is that women play the gender card justifying their violence against men then they quickly hide behind their skirt, and whilst crying pathetically whimper out, "oh but I am ONLY a poor defenceless woman.
Oh pulllease!!!

jack daniels:

TJC:

I think we can all sorta agree that blatant sexism and misogyny in narration is pretty bad, no matter the medium, right?
I mean tropes can be used pretty much universally in books, films and video games. But the thing is video games are special because of their interactivity and there are only few games that are inherently misogynistic in terms of gameplay. Yes, there are quite a few games which feature horrible and frankly stupid tropes of female character and do depict women in quite a sexist way. And if we seperate video games in terms of this interactivity we'll find that there aren't that many games which depict misogyny through gameplay (aside from porn games, I guess :/ )

Whilst everyone condemns misogyny it appears that misandry is not only encouraged but welcomed in all forms of the media depicting women degrading men, including women being violent towards men is meant to be a funny past time (eg Bobbitt). The hypocrisy is that women play the gender card justifying their violence against men then they quickly hide behind their skirt, and whilst crying pathetically whimper out, "oh but I am ONLY a poor defenceless woman.
Oh pulllease!!!

So why is someone who "acts like a man" still a compliment, but to say someone "acts like a woman" is still an insult?

TJC:

BrotherRool:
The witcher. Practically codified sexually extorting women in gameplay terms

*sigh*

In Yahtzee's own words...

Some people might call The Witcher misogynistic, for the fact that every single woman in the game shows off a cleavage you could lose your dog in, and will jump on you at the slightest provocation, for a PG-13 sex scene, followed by a paradoxically explicit dirty postcard. Personally, I think it's less The Witcher's obvious hatred of women, and more the same misguided pretension to maturity that also causes the characters to cuss with every alternate word.

So yeah, you were saying?

apparently my lifetime collection of photographs of my ex lovers is a bad thing ? :(

captcha says "can't have nice things"...

ps "extorting" is generally related to money...surely that would be GTA?..
pps and Yahtzee was fundamentally dishonest in his "review" of that game not least because as a Brit (and/or an Australasian) i practically guarantee you he's been in the company of people who "cuss" as a matter of course more than the characters in that game do...i'll let him off though because A. he didn't actually play it much and B. he's not a serious games journalist and practically sets out to slate every game for entertainment purposes from the get go.

If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!

Pulse:
If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!

well spotted.

you know what else ? the biggest criticisers of women (and men) on any basis are women.

entire media and publishing empires are built on feeding their specifically flavoured indulgence of being judgemental about others and especially the appearance of their own sex.

seriously just pause at the magazine section next time you are in a supermarket and look for the mens mags where we judge our own sex on their clothing, the minutia of their own body and their lifestyle choices...oh and don't forget the articles that just basically trash talk the opposite sex and present worse case scenarios for any relationship...oh wait, THEY DON'T EXIST and yet its always us who are told we're the ones who oh so judgemental based on appearances and so easily influenced by outside stimuli...

it like people who accept this shit have never hung around with women and actually listened to them talk.

women are "bitchy", "catty", whatever the hell you want to call it and a huge percentage of the time its aimed at other women and entirely subjective on their part.

i think the theory is if they talk about it enough and attempt to feign the appearance of a united front (even when, trust me, there really isn't one) that somehow the self-righteous judging they do is somehow lifted up and held apart.

the question is...was that a boob joke ?

"look at this Jock...he's really let himself go..."
"oh aye..."
"just look at that cellulite in his beard..."
"shameful"
"come look at this Wullie!"
"och him ? he's no been worth anything since his arse job..."
"and whit the fuck is he thinking with that vpl ?!"
"...and that top ?..."
"yer right...it disnie even match his shoes!!"

/\ this type of conversation virtually never happens in the male (heterosexual) domain but something approximating it'll be happening in countless fem huddles this lunchtime and they'll be predominantly critiquing their own sex...assuming they're not slagging off "their" men ofc (of either the real or fantasy variety).

So movies and games that have a lead male character that rescues a woman is automatically sexist? What the actual fuck?

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

lacktheknack:

JudgeGame:

ShinyCharizard:

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

Maybe I've used up most of my caring towards the topic in the fifty other threads.

It's natural to care less about a problem as time goes on if it's always talked about but never truly addressed. If you're actively addressing it yourself (Mother Theresa and the poor, as an extreme example) or witnessing your caring having an actual effect (donating to a charity and seeing the results) or if the issue isn't talked about constantly all the time (elections), then it makes sense to keep caring. If the above three conditions fail (say, our observing and discussing sexism in games), then it becomes something to live with. Continuing to care just makes you obsessive.

If anything, we NEED the people who don't care to flood the threads and say so. Maybe the discussion amongst those who still care can be relegated to ONE thread, leaving the overloaded rest of us to have a break and regain our caring. It's much easier to ignore one thread rather than five.

I don't know how you think the Internet works but there isn't a limited supply of threads. You can post on any thread you like or even start your own thread. Saying you have no interest in a conversation you weren't even a part of is a very bizarre brand of sociopathy you don't see much in ordinary life. Did you really not know all this already?

JudgeGame:

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

[/quote]

Arakasi:
I honestly think that you're the one being sexist by furthering the steryotype that women have 'raging emotions'. Pointing out a videogame character's powers does nothing to help the issue at all.

Also, it's not like any male has ever had a power based upon their 'anger' or 'PMSing' as you'd call it. Hardly sexist.

Also also: "But the thing is video games are special because of their interactivity". No. All art is to be judged by the same standard.

Pulse:
If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!

Yeah, pretty much that. People like to overcomplicate and read more than there is into things don't they? Men can be portrayed as any type of character but women suddenly are special? This is heavily fucked up, and how many threads about this do we need again?

Never confuse content with form.

You can take the postmodern approach, which is popular with teens and freshmen philosophy students, and observe that everything is a perspective and all perspectives are implicitly about power and power relations.

Yeah, or you shouldn't.

To take the Skyrim example. How is that sexist? In the Skyrim universe, women have less physical strength but greater stamina. What is the problem here? What is the game saying? That women are worse than men? No, they're different. Last time I physically checked, men and women are.

While we're on the subject of (arbitrary) limitations and advantages in video games, whyisn't Charizard a dragon type? Or why are Adepts in Mass Effect 1 unable to specialize in assault rifles?

Why isn't everyone able to do everything? Aren't we, like, equal?!

If you answered: "Because of gameplay balance/differentation", then you are not confusing content with form. Congratulations.

lacktheknack:

Reaper195:

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Lolwut, that actually happened?

Yeah.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

More accurately, women tend to have higher personality and willpower (good for magery) and men have higher endurance and strength (good for warriors), with exceptions (Orcish women have abysmal personality, even worse than Orcish men) and oddities (female Argonians and Orcs are smarter than the men, with the rest of the races tied).

It didn't really matter, though, because the skill ceilings were identical.

Wow. That is funny, messed-up, and awkward...all at the same time.
I mean it's kind of an interesting subtle thing to spruce up gameplay at the cost of stereotypes, but really Bethesda? Character creation isn't supposed to limit people in THAT sort of way. To clarify, I don't think this is a HUGE deal, but I feel it should be avoided.

Good find Lack, never knew this.

Spinozaad:

While we're on the subject of (arbitrary) limitations and advantages in video games, whyisn't Charizard a dragon type? Or why are Adepts in Mass Effect 1 unable to specialize in assault rifles?

Why isn't everyone able to do everything? Aren't we, like, equal?!

If you answered: "Because of gameplay balance/differentation", then you are not confusing content with form. Congratulations.

I'd argue that race and classes are separate from gender, but that only furthers your point. Everyone has a different place where they draw the line.

Spinozaad:

To take the Skyrim example. How is that sexist? In the Skyrim universe, women have less physical strength but greater stamina. What is the problem here? What is the game saying? That women are worse than men? No, they're different. Last time I physically checked, men and women are.

Yeah I don't think it's sexist. But as I said earlier, I think it's contrary to a game that puts emphasis on character creation, what if you want to role-play as a buff woman who has low stamina?

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

Woiminkle:

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

JudgeGame:

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

Woiminkle:

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.

lacktheknack:
Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Although being upset because a stereotypical princess is given "Raging Emotions" as an ability? I'm guessing you don't watch many comedies, right? Besides, I have a game on my tablet right now where one of the enemies has a fury-based ability that ups his attack every turn. Isn't that kind of exactly what you're saying is "sexist against women"?

I don't think that really counts as sexism, that's more or less "Oddly placed realism".

Now you might be thinking this sounds like excuse making but think of it like this: Why does WoW have gravity? It's a world of magic and dragons, why obey some laws of physics and not others?

JudgeGame:

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.

Nobody in particular you mean, just all gamers and developers who don't share your opinion, I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that I'm somehow taking it personally I certainly didn't say anything that could be construed that way. Just that last part where you ASSUMED (see you did it again) I was being egotistical and making it about me when you clearly said you were talking about all gamers, apart from yourself of course. My point is you seem to be desperately trying to put yourself on a pedestal because while games are made by and for "aggressively immature idiots" it's okay for you to enjoy them on your own terms because you are somehow more enlightend than the rest of the gaming community. So who is being egotistical?

Jimmy T. Malice:

Even biologically-accurate observations can be misinterpreted as sexist by people who are trying to be overly politically correct.

that really depends though...

in the case of obliivion? yeah sure, I'm fine with that

but lets say you couldn't play as a female in oblivion or mass effect and the excuse was "biologically-accurate observations" <-thats when I'd call Bullshit

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

Woiminkle:

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.

Nobody in particular you mean, just all gamers and developers who don't share your opinion, I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that I'm somehow taking it personally I certainly didn't say anything that could be construed that way. Just that last part where you ASSUMED (see you did it again) I was being egotistical and making it about me when you clearly said you were talking about all gamers, apart from yourself of course. My point is you seem to be desperately trying to put yourself on a pedestal because while games are made by and for "aggressively immature idiots" it's okay for you to enjoy them on your own terms because you are somehow more enlightend than the rest of the gaming community. So who is being egotistical?

Quoting your own words: "but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons". You immediately put yourself into the conversation, twice. I never said the aggressively immature idiots were the people who didn't agree with me. I never even implied that the aggressively immature idiots even existed, I said games were designed for them. I never said I was talking about all gamers. If you can't understand this then I think you should go practice your English a bit more before you keep answering. It is very hard to have a conversation with somebody when they don't share a common language. I don't want you to get so upset when I'm not even confronting you.

Somebody with a chip on their shoulder or an agenda to perpetuate the narrative that "media is always sexist" can find sexism literally anywhere. "Look, and ye shall surely find", or whatever the old adage is.

----------------- Females in Games, According to the Whiners ---------------------------------

Representation
No women in a game: What a complete sausage fest, thanks for ignoring 50% of the world's population.[1]
A few women: Patronising tokenism.[2]
"Too many" women: Ugh, clearly a male fantasy. These women are just interchangeable eye-candy, like some virtual harem![3]
Exclusively women: PORN! PORN! Obviously porn![4] (or alternatively) Patronising "Games for Girls" shit. This is the gaming equivalent of being made to sit at the back of the bus.[5]

Appearance
Attractive females: This is just male wank fantasy. Thanks for defining a woman's worth as a person by her appearance, jerks.[6]
Average females: That's not very empowering. You think women should be the drab pea-hens to the strutting male peacocks, eh? Conservatively image-policing us in games now, eh? When will the oppression stop!
Unattractive females: Your cruel depiction of this one ugly/old/fat woman is clearly a slur on ALL women! Boo! Hiss![7]

Abilities
Equal to men: This doesn't reflect femininity or womanliness in any way. Stop trying to ignore female attributes and portraying maleness as the norm![8]
Different to men: Clear sexism! Difference is by definition disparity! You're valuing maleness over femaleness![9]

Role in the game
Love interest: Great, so we're still relegated to being a "prize" or "reward" for the heroic male to inevitably "claim". Pass me the bucket, I'm about to vomit.
Has been kidnapped: Damsel in distress, eh? This implies all women are helpless and define themselves by their need for male help. Sexist.[10]
Sidekick: Yet another reminder that males are superior and women are glorified mother/girlfriend surrogates.[11]
Optional lead role: The box art still has a man on it, so it's still demeaning and sidelining![12]
Lead role: Hmm, now we're getting somewhere. But if this lead is presented in an overly sexy way[13], conforms to any stereotypes (even for the sake of playing on and sending up those stereotypes)[14] or includes anything I consider distasteful[15] then I'll still call it out as sexist.

GunsmithKitten:
So why is someone who "acts like a man" still a compliment, but to say someone "acts like a woman" is still an insult?

I'm not sure that's true, or at least not true all (or even most) of the time. Sex is a binary and we tend to define one gender by its dissimilarity to the other.

OK, this is going to be an unorthodox way of making my point, but bear with me. This here is one of the best displays of sex equality I've ever seen:

Basically, it's a girl-vs-boy rap battle, complete with all the lowbrow smack-talk and insults that entails.[16] The whole schtick here is that she constantly belittles his masculinity while he belittles her femininity. No pretence of political correctness, no pretending that "we're all the same, sex is just a physical variation", this is straight-up "different but equal" set within an acknowledgement, not a denial, of established gender roles and societal norms.

Basically, no man wants to be called "a woman" but very few women would take genuine pride in being called "manly" either. There is difference between the sexes and I think that should be recognised and even celebrated, and the conclusion needn't necessarily be that X is better than Y or vice-versa.

[1] Call of Duty, FIFA
[2] Streetfighter II, Golden Axe, just about every game ever made
[3] Dead or Alive
[4] DOA Beach Volleyball, Skullgirls, at least prior to the "devs are wimminz" revelation which made most people do a 180 on their opinion
[5] Cooking Mama, Nintendo DS Fairy Princess Horse Simulator 4, you know the kind of thing
[6] Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, WoW
[7] Fat Princess
[8] WoW, Ms Pac Man, anything where the female is a re-skinned male default avatar
[9] Skyrim
[10] Mario
[11] Resident Evil 5, Halo
[12] Mass Effect
[13] Bayonetta
[14] Chainsaw Lolipop
[15] Tomb Raider
[16] The same guy later gets ruined in a rap battle with his English teacher - http://youtu.be/tp4wEewrQdU

Batou667:
-snip-

But if I was was "manly" or "womanly" why should I have to be treated differently because of it?

In any case, insulting other people for lulz is petty.

JudgeGame:

Woiminkle:

JudgeGame:

I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.

Nobody in particular you mean, just all gamers and developers who don't share your opinion, I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that I'm somehow taking it personally I certainly didn't say anything that could be construed that way. Just that last part where you ASSUMED (see you did it again) I was being egotistical and making it about me when you clearly said you were talking about all gamers, apart from yourself of course. My point is you seem to be desperately trying to put yourself on a pedestal because while games are made by and for "aggressively immature idiots" it's okay for you to enjoy them on your own terms because you are somehow more enlightend than the rest of the gaming community. So who is being egotistical?

Quoting your own words: "but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons". You immediately put yourself into the conversation, twice. I never said the aggressively immature idiots were the people who didn't agree with me. I never even implied that the aggressively immature idiots even existed, I said games were designed for them. I never said I was talking about all gamers. If you can't understand this then I think you should go practice your English a bit more before you keep answering. It is very hard to have a conversation with somebody when they don't share a common language. I don't want you to get so upset when I'm not even confronting you.

Oh but judge I'm not upset at all. I've been enjoying watch you wriggle and squirm and back pedal when myself and others have confronted you. I love how you try to use semantics to back your way out when you can no longer support your own weak assumptions and made up statistics. I really love how you are trying to make out that I'm upset with you now. I'm not the one claiming that gamers are either idiots at best or psychopaths at worst. You were the one spouting that nonsense. I'm saying it's not an either or situation, I'm saying there are many reasons why some people don't consider this an issue that don't involve anyone being either an idiot or evil and psychotic. That's all you baby. And that's the real reason you keep bringing up our shared language, to avoid the real issue and try to salvage what little dignity you have left. I thnk most people reading this thread will see through it though, so I have no cause to get upset dear.

JudgeGame:

Batou667:
-snip-

But if I was was "manly" or "womanly" why should I have to be treated differently because of it?

In any case, insulting other people for lulz is petty.

Oh my Judge I love how your brain works it's a fascinating example of the scope of cognitive dissonance, anyway I must leave you now unfortunately I have to pick up the little man from school and my day after that is pretty busy so to you I leave the last word and to everyone else in the thread keep enjoying this magnificent specimen.
Peace.

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