Oh look, another Dark Souls is lame thread.

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Ohh, dark souls, you could have been so much more. I bought dark souls during the steam winter sale, and I got a controller for it last night; I've played for 9 hours now and I feel I have perspective on why this game generates so much vitriol. I just got to the bonfire in Darkroot Garden and I'm a level 24 sorcerer using the op Drake sword.

Im a huge ninja gaiden black fan and I think it is a very appropriate game to compare darks souls against because neither game gives a fuck whether you figure out how to play it or not. Neither game gives the slightest clues on EXTREMELY important information like on-landing charge for ngb or running in dark souls. Why isn't running explained in the game? I mean really. Running. Why wasn't there a message for that in the tutorial level? Why did I have to go read about it on a wiki? Thats a pretty shitty thing to do dark souls. As you have probably guessed by now, dark souls hasn't impressed me. I'm having fun playing it, but it doesn't deserve the honor people bestow on it. UPDATE: It seems running is in the tutorial I just missed it. I'm so glad that something so important to gameplay can be missed like that because as we all know, humans always learn things the first time they are told. (<--irony)

Dark Souls combat: boiled down to a no frills, slow paced battlefield awareness and positioning puzzle. Assess where the enemies are and make sure they don't get behind you and try to lure them out to dispatch them one at a time. Try to get behind them to do a backstab. Fighting groups will get you killed. Thats all I've encountered so far and even though there are a lot of other options EVENTUALLY (like too many hours in for me to care about), I'm going to judge the combat on its core mechanics.

Ninja Gaidan Black combat: group combat at its finest. You are forced to engage 3 or more enemies at all times. Usually two or three will confront you directly while others throw shurikens, shoot firearms, grenades, heave giant clubs, fireballs, or some other form of ranged combat at you. You have to stay moving while inflicting damage. You have to prioritize targets while dodging EVERYTHING using your various ground and air attacks and appropriate weapons.

Blocking and understanding the enemy attack patterns are essential to survival in both games, but one far exceeds the other in pace and complexity. NGB combat was always balls to the fucking wall with shit flying at you and enemies attacking from all sides. You could make some mistakes and still survive. DS has plodding and simple fights that are more about knowing what the enemy does rather that skilled battlefield jockeying. That is the downfall of DS. You can't attack groups because they kill you too quickly meaning fast combat is out. The "fast" combat I've seen in dark souls have always been backstab fests which aren't particularly interesting to me. I'm not going to discuss how much better NGE's combat in too much length but if you are interested, take a look at the advanced combat faq for that game. http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox/928401-ninja-gaiden-black/faqs/39056
There is so much variety in Ninja Gaiden's combat compared to dark souls and I think thats a shame. I really like the atmosphere of dark souls. The exploration is tons of fun, but the game completely failing to give the player key information in a useful way and that destroys the experience for me. The trial and error form of teaching is such an outdated method and I am forced to consult a wiki for everything I do, and I hate that. I hate that I have to look up silly shit instead of experiencing it for myself and that brings me to why dark souls is so popular. It is accessible to a large range of people that typical "hardcore" games can't reach. The combat is slow which takes reflex skill out of the picture (in comparison to NGE that is. There is still some reflex with dodging and parrying) and makes the game more about knowledge than skill. This is the classic case of crystallized intelligence versus fluid intelligence. Knowing certain things makes dark souls a tremendously easy experience. You gain knowledge about situations after death and you can then apply that knowledge to future endeavors by avoiding the attack or knowing about an ambush. This is the base formula of learning in a video game. Dark souls follows this but amplifies the penalty tremendously. Instead of just losing some health, you lose real world time for mistakes. Thats a shitty philosophy. Even if your knowledge of NGE is expansive eg knowledge of enemy attack patterns, knowledge of your weapon capabilities, you'll still get owned if you can't dance around the battlefield which is that combat fluidity that I find so lacking in Dark Souls. So yeah, Dark souls isn't for me because it is a shitty, watered down, semi-hardcore game. I don't feel that the instant death and loss of souls adds value to ones life. Losing souls doesn't mean anything to me other than I'll have to grind a little at the designated grind points that the developer obviously put into the game. Dying doesn't really cost me anything but time, and becoming good at the game doesn't mean gaining any skill, just adding knowledge.

I want to make a little addendum about why I think they made the choices they made that I find so detestable. They wanted to reinforce community sharing with the soapstone messages. The first time I played DS it was on an xbox without an internet connection and I had zero warnings or suggestions. That legacy and sense of discovery is a really cool idea, I just don't like the way it panned out and would love to see that same idea further developed.

Also, I think dark souls would make a better rougelike. It has all the elements of punishment and discovery without the infinite replayability.

tl:dr Dark Souls has average combat with amazing atmosphere and exploration elements while using questionable teaching methods. Its popular because its not really a hardcore game. Ninja Gaiden Black is better. Fuck off.

Andrew Andrew:
op Drake sword.

Good luck with that...

Andrew Andrew:
What isn't running explained in the game? I mean really. Running. Why wasn't there a message for that in the tutorial level? Why did I have to go read about it on a wiki? Thats a pretty shitty thing to do dark souls.

Hate to be that guy, but I am fairly certain there is a message telling you how to run at the first stair case when you leave your cell in the Undead Asylum. Can anyone confirm?

Lol if there was a message I completely missed it. And if I did miss it is was because I didn't get my controller fully functional till the taurus demon and might not have read that message.

Also, I don't think the drake sword was meant to be discovered on a first playthrough. It is so much more powerful than anything else I've found it seems the developer meant it to be a secret. It drops everything in one shot in that area.

Your entitled to your opinion. But here is a question for you . Why did you have to wiki anything? How come you couldn't/didn't test the controls for what you can/can't do ? Why do you feel the need to fight enemies one on one and backstab all of them?

The reason i ask this is because , in dark souls you don't NEED to do anything. You can play the game anyway you want to . I didn't use a wiki on my first playthrough , and i bought the game the day it was released. I didn't know i could jump until i got the sen's fortress , i never backstabed ANY monsters , i still can't parry on demand . And you know what ? I still beat the game . I wasn't looking for the best way to do anything , i just did it my way . And you know what? I had TONS of fun. Also i killed EVERY NPC , because i could . Sure it probably made my game harder, but i did what i wanted and lived to tell the tale . I played the game MY way .

The game rewards experimentation , i do sometimes wonder ,why don't people experiment more ? Why don't they try to figure things out on their own? Why must we tell them EVERYTHING ? But that's just me . I just find it weird that no one TRIES anymore . Everything seemingly have to be given to them in advance , or not we get frustrated .

Andrew Andrew:
Lol if there was a message I completely missed it. And if I did miss it is was because I didn't get my controller fully functional till the taurus demon and might not have read that message.

Well there you go then... I'm almost positive it's there since I remember running up those stairs my first time playing through, and I wouldn't have known otherwise; unless I just happened to be so lucky as to happen upon the ability by accident.

By the way, if you intend to keep playing (sounds like you don't), I would recommend you ditch the drake sword soon. It has terrible stat scaling and, will be next to useless to you fairly soon.

There was a message in tutorial telling you how to run, you must have missed it somehow although yes some things were not explained as well as they could have been.
You can take on groups it's just riskier and you'll probably be wanting a weapon with good range and sweeping attacks.

I don't think it is particularly trial and error. The first time one of Balder Knights riposted me I don't think I could have seen it coming but for the most part if when you see a new enemy or boss you hang back a bit and block you should be able to figure them out relatively quickly without death. A lot of the ambushes you can see coming. If an enemy runs off instead of attacking you or the area widens and can't see what is around the corner chances are it's a trap.

Even the mimic chest (which did kill me the first time) was ringing alarm bells because it was randomly in the middle of the room instead of up against a wall in an area full of traps.

krazykidd:

The game rewards experimentation , i do sometimes wonder ,why don't people experiment more ? Why don't they try to figure things out on their own? Why must we tell them EVERYTHING ? But that's just me . I just find it weird that no one TRIES anymore . Everything seemingly have to be given to them in advance , or not we get frustrated .

Well, my take on it is that people don't want to be finding mechanics that could very well not exist. If the game goes "here this is what you have to learn," then people spend less time chasing things may not exist and more actually learning and getting good at the damn mechanics.

Of course, I'm talking about mechanics here, not like the Alchemy in Skyrim(if I remember correctly), which is a clear defined mechanic that actually includes experimentation.

Wait wait wait wait...the Drake sword is OP? Wouldn't be so quick to slap that label on it. It'll stop being useful real quick. It's strong now, but the drawback is that no matter how much you raise your stats, it is currently as strong as it will ever get. Also the Garden? You're not even at the quarter way point. Also the Garden is an optional area until you need a special ring to enter the abyss, which you are nowhere near.

Uh, I looked up an LP video. There is a message telling you how to run in what is quite literally the first hallway.

Yeah that's kinda the point. You're not Guts from Berserk here, you can't just run into hordes of enemy soldiers and just kill six of them with a single swing. The point of Dark Souls is that you need to take every enemy seriously, and while you can easily take on several weaker enemies at the same time without too much trouble, it is riskier.

Haven't played the game, can't comment.

Yeah, Dark Souls isn't fast paced because, after all, you're supposed to be a undead person in a dying world, I find it fits the atmosphere very well. I personally find myself rarely using backstabs when I play, mainly because there are plenty of enemies it doesn't work on. Reflex skill gets taken out of the picture? I say nay. I can't help but get the feeling that you haven't fought the Capra Demon yet. Or the Moonlight Butterfly. I was able to get through without consulting the wiki. I still consulted it, but only because the world is so freaking massive. I actually like how Dark Souls punishes you for dying.

Speak for yourself about it not being repayable. I've lost track of how many hours I've sunk into it. 50 at the very least Still, to each his own.

Uh...that was unnecessarily rude.

Remaiki:
Well, my take on it is that people don't want to be finding mechanics that could very well not exist. If the game goes "here this is what you have to learn," then people spend less time chasing things may not exist and more actually learning and getting good at the damn mechanics.

Thing is, the OP is complaining about the lack of instruction on the most basic of commands ( holding down a button whilst moving forward to run ), and, besides, it actually does instruct you on how to do this.

All of the basic commmands ( movement, combat ) are outlined at the beginning of the game.

krazykidd:
Why do you feel the need to fight enemies one on one and backstab all of them?

I don't feel the need to fight them one on one, I just don't survive unless I do. And yes, I am one of the players that experiments. I haven't found this game to be that difficult, just unnecessarily obtuse.

As far as missing the run message, I was playing and wondering why I couldn't outrun things. It seemed that there should be a run and holding B is not something I've ever encountered in a game so it wasn't something I would consider trying.

erttheking:
Speak for yourself about it not being repayable. I've lost track of how many hours I've sunk into it. 50 at the very least

50 hours in a game is nothing. 50 hours of Dota doesn't even mean you can watch and understand a replay and 300 hrs into that game I'm still a noob. Challenge is something I welcome. I just don't find Dark Souls to be the challenge everyone says it is. Its just a knowledge quiz.

That said I'm probably going to finish it.

Kurai Angelo:
Thing is, the OP is complaining about the lack of instruction on the most basic of commands

I'm saying not fully explaining your game is a terrible oversight but my bigger point was that the supposed challenge of the game isn't interesting and you should try Ninja Gaiden Black if you think you can handle it.

Andrew Andrew:

erttheking:
Speak for yourself about it not being repayable. I've lost track of how many hours I've sunk into it. 50 at the very least

50 hours in a game is nothing. 50 hours of Dota doesn't even mean you can watch and understand a replay and 300 hrs into that game I'm still a noob. Challenge is something I welcome. I just don't find Dark Souls to be the challenge everyone says it is. Its just a knowledge quiz.

That said I'm probably going to finish it.

Uh...no it's not. I have never heard of a game with a learning curve so steep that you could play it for nearly two weeks and still be a noob (except maybe EVE). It's rather unfair to judge other games by standards that ridiculous.

Funny thing is, even when you think you know something, you can still very easily die.

Kurai Angelo:

Andrew Andrew:
op Drake sword.

Good luck with that...

Andrew Andrew:
What isn't running explained in the game? I mean really. Running. Why wasn't there a message for that in the tutorial level? Why did I have to go read about it on a wiki? Thats a pretty shitty thing to do dark souls.

Hate to be that guy, but I am fairly certain there is a message telling you how to run at the first stair case when you leave your cell in the Undead Asylum. Can anyone confirm?

I just used my brain, testing out different button combinations like I always have done since the NES/SNES.

Tutorials serve me no purpose, for the most part. Unless it is for a new genre or very strange game mechanics. Both of which Dark Souls does not have. Simple Controls, simple gameplay.

OT: Also a bit of a tip to you OP -

1.) Block.
2.) Dodge.
3.) Slash.
???
4.) Win the Game.

Andrew Andrew:

krazykidd:
Why do you feel the need to fight enemies one on one and backstab all of them?

I don't feel the need to fight them one on one, I just don't survive unless I do. And yes, I am one of the players that experiments. I haven't found this game to be that difficult, just unnecessarily obtuse.

As far as missing the run message, I was playing and wondering why I couldn't outrun things. It seemed that there should be a run and holding B is not something I've ever encountered in a game so it wasn't something I would consider trying.

erttheking:
Speak for yourself about it not being repayable. I've lost track of how many hours I've sunk into it. 50 at the very least

50 hours in a game is nothing. 50 hours of Dota doesn't even mean you can watch and understand a replay and 300 hrs into that game I'm still a noob. Challenge is something I welcome. I just don't find Dark Souls to be the challenge everyone says it is. Its just a knowledge quiz.

That said I'm probably going to finish it.

When you troll with a thread like this you should probably expect some criticism - although I will ne nice :)

Dark Souls is arguably one of the most replayable games made in recent years. The enemies and bosses get HARDER on each playthrough all the way through NG7.

The platinum/achievements trophies are incredibly rewarding with a large number of secrets and hidden areas.
You can't get the final trophy/achievement without spending a ton of time.

The PvP system is phenomenal with many different covenants and dozens of different builds including players that hunt down sinners (Darkmoons), play as dragons, co-op together (Sunbros), invade as evil dudes (darkwraiths) and so on.
There are dozens of well known live streamers on Twitch etc that play Dark Souls PvP all day every day with hundreds of followers.

There are resonance rings that amplify magic when you see them. They are created by other players being around the same place in other game instances. Very subtle.

And difficulty? You haven't even been invaded yet by someone.
That is a key part of the game.

Most players get raped during their first invasion by a real person when they're human because they're not geared yet.
And they don't know the ropes well yet. It can be very challenging.

You also haven't rang the first 2 bells yet.

So the "true" difficulty is with the harder bosses and being invaded by other players, both of which you haven't done.

And if someone experienced invades you at SL24 or whatever level you are, and all you have is the Drake Sword, you're not going to do very well :)

Andrew Andrew:
.....I've played for 9 hours now.... I'm having fun playing it....

....Only in gaming can someone spend 9 hours having fun with something and despise it anyway.

I'd be careful about judging the game so early, you're barely a 5th of the way in to the game. Especially considering you've clearly spent a good chunk of time on the Dark Souls wiki. I'm not saying you're wrong to use a wiki, i doubt there are many people who've finished the game without looking at it now and then, but if you want to get in to the game a bit more you should definitely try leaving the wiki as a last resort, otherwise you're kind of denying yourself half the fun in figuring out what the best ways to tackle the various obstacles and enemies on your own.

See, Dark Souls isn't really a whole lot about trial and error. 90% of the traps in the game you can see coming if you take things slowly, and if you hang back and keep your shield up for a bit the first time you encounter a new enemy you can generally figure out a tactic for them there and then, without having to die and run back again and again and again before you even know whats going on. Obviously you'll still die quite a lot, but that's because executing your tactic cleanly is easier said than done.

Just btw, the Drake Sword is a bit of trick really. It can be obtained ridiculously early on, it's far more powerful than anything else you'll come across at the time, but it's so powerful you don't need to spend as much time taking things slowly and carefully, reducing the fun of that aspect of DS. Further, it narrows the playstyles you'll try out earlier on with different weapons because you won't see any point trying anything else out, and then all of a sudden it fizzles out and leaves you out hanging when the world starts outscaling it. I'd recommend finding and trying out some other weapons (don't have to be special boss drops or anything), finding out which type suits you well, upgrading it and continuing the game with the playstyle of your choice. The game is surprisingly different when you base your play-style on something like a 2 handed weapon, or magic, rather than just the standard sword/board gameplay. Even going from a standard longsword-style moveset to a rapier or scimitar or another singe-handed blade is a bit of a jump, let alone spears and halberds and claymores .... and even THEN you've still got magic and bows to try out.

Simply put, there's more to Dark Souls combat than the Drake Sword.

Also, you derping through the tutorial isn't the fault of the game. Yes, there are quite a few things DS could do a much better job of letting you know about, the fact that you couldn't find something better to complain about than sprinting really doesn't do you any credit.

Erttheking: I don't mean to pick on you but your avatar is Dark Souls. I don't want to sound demeaning or offensive but I don't think you've ever played a truly deep game or at least attained mastery of any game especially since your example was EVE online. Look at the half life 2 mod Dystopia or dota 2. You can easily play those games for 500 hrs and be complete shit. If you have access to a ps3 I would urge you to play ninja gaiden. Not the second one cause that was just mindless frenzy. If you think dark souls has any substance, try it out.

Andrew Andrew:
Erttheking: I don't mean to pick on you but your avatar is Dark Souls. I don't want to sound demeaning or offensive but I don't think you've ever played a truly deep game or at least attained mastery of any game especially since your example was EVE online. Look at the half life 2 mod Dystopia or dota 2. You can easily play those games for 500 hrs and be complete shit. If you have access to a ps3 I would urge you to play ninja gaiden. Not the second one cause that was just mindless frenzy. If you think dark souls has any substance, try it out.

Uh...not quite sure what to say to that. It just kinda sounds like you're kinda insulting me for not being...hardcore enough. I don't know. I kinda feel insulted right now.

Andrew Andrew:
Erttheking: I don't mean to pick on you but your avatar is Dark Souls. I don't want to sound demeaning or offensive but I don't think you've ever played a truly deep game or at least attained mastery of any game especially since your example was EVE online. Look at the half life 2 mod Dystopia or dota 2. You can easily play those games for 500 hrs and be complete shit. If you have access to a ps3 I would urge you to play ninja gaiden. Not the second one cause that was just mindless frenzy. If you think dark souls has any substance, try it out.

You don't really understand the statistics about Dark Souls if you're saying that there aren't thousands of Dark Souls players with 500+ hours playing the game.

The PvP system, build system, covenants, etc alone have kept people playing for 15+ months :)

I mean, what's your point in just posting pure speculation with no supporting data other than your opinion?

ClockWyze:
The enemies and bosses get HARDER on each playthrough all the way through NG7.

The platinum/achievements trophies are incredibly rewarding with a large number of secrets and hidden areas.
You can't get the final trophy/achievement without spending a ton of time.

The PvP system is phenomenal with many different covenants and dozens of different builds including players that hunt down sinners (Darkmoons), play as dragons, co-op together (Sunbros), invade as evil dudes (darkwraiths) and so on.
There are dozens of well known live streamers on Twitch etc that play Dark Souls PvP all day every day with hundreds of followers.

And difficulty? You haven't even been invaded yet by someone.
That is a key part of the game.

Most players get raped during their first invasion by a real person when they're human because they're not geared yet.
And they don't know the ropes well yet. It can be very challenging.

How do the bosses get harder? Is it because their tactics change or is it because they have slightly faster animations?

I haven't done pvp yet as I don't know how to make it work, but what it seems to me is that the person with the better equipment wins. Unless its the person that just backstabs you so I'm not sure the pvp sounds all the interesting either.

erttheking:
Uh...not quite sure what to say to that. It just kinda sounds like you're kinda insulting me for not being...hardcore enough. I don't know. I kinda feel insulted right now.

Consider the source. You are being insulted by an Escapist version of Billy Mitchell. Just take a deep breath and let it roll off your back.

DOTA 2 is an absolutely ridiculous analogue for Dark Souls. You might as well compare Chess to Super Mario. They're not remotely similar and they require completely different skill sets.

Andrew Andrew:

ClockWyze:
The enemies and bosses get HARDER on each playthrough all the way through NG7.

The platinum/achievements trophies are incredibly rewarding with a large number of secrets and hidden areas.
You can't get the final trophy/achievement without spending a ton of time.

The PvP system is phenomenal with many different covenants and dozens of different builds including players that hunt down sinners (Darkmoons), play as dragons, co-op together (Sunbros), invade as evil dudes (darkwraiths) and so on.
There are dozens of well known live streamers on Twitch etc that play Dark Souls PvP all day every day with hundreds of followers.

And difficulty? You haven't even been invaded yet by someone.
That is a key part of the game.

Most players get raped during their first invasion by a real person when they're human because they're not geared yet.
And they don't know the ropes well yet. It can be very challenging.

How do the bosses get harder? Is it because their tactics change or is it because they have slightly faster animations?

I haven't done pvp yet as I don't know how to make it work, but what it seems to me is that the person with the better equipment wins. Unless its the person that just backstabs you so I'm not sure the pvp sounds all the interesting either.

A combination of the two and some other things. Come back and talk about the bosses when after you fight these two
image
I guarantee you that you won't be thinking the same way.

BloatedGuppy:
Consider the source. You are being insulted by an Escapist version of Billy Mitchell. Just take a deep breath and let it roll off your back.

DOTA 2 is an absolutely ridiculous analogue for Dark Souls. You might as well compare Chess to Super Mario. They're not remotely similar and they require completely different skill sets.

Aww you're too sweet. I'm not that good at video games. But Dark souls and dota have more in common than you think. Just because they are presented differently doesn't mean the skills involved are dissimilar.

Andrew Andrew:
Aww you're too sweet. I'm not that good at video games. But Dark souls and dota have more in common than you think. Just because they are presented differently doesn't mean the skills involved are dissimilar.

They're completely dissimilar.

They both require iterative knowledge and they both require spatial awareness, but those are general gaming skills. You could just as easily attempt to compare a flight simulator to a puzzle game if you want to be that general about it.

The skill cap in Dark Souls is almost entirely about twitch and pattern recognition. Old school arcade players would feel very at home.

The skill cap in DOTA is primarily concerned with team cohesion and coordination.

One is a team multiplayer game, the other is a single player RPG with a garnish of occasional deathmatches.

Other than the fact they both have a "D" in the title there's virtually nothing to link them. It's like shit talking someone who is good at basketball because he's a poor hand at model ship building.

And really, unless you're a professional gamer, Billy, you should probably lay off the shit talking entirely. It's not flattering, and it's going to end up with you neck deep in multiple flame wars.

erttheking:
A combination of the two and some other things. Come back and talk about the bosses when after you fight these two. I guarantee you that you won't be thinking the same way.

You know, I feel like those two got oversold. I beat them on my first try. A very long, very stressful try that ate all my potions and firepots, but my first try nonetheless.

I found Stray Demon much worse for some reason.

Yet another one

Andrew Andrew:

BloatedGuppy:
Consider the source. You are being insulted by an Escapist version of Billy Mitchell. Just take a deep breath and let it roll off your back.

DOTA 2 is an absolutely ridiculous analogue for Dark Souls. You might as well compare Chess to Super Mario. They're not remotely similar and they require completely different skill sets.

Aww you're too sweet. I'm not that good at video games. But Dark souls and dota have more in common than you think. Just because they are presented differently doesn't mean the skills involved are dissimilar.

What? Basic hand eye coordination? Having a hand and an eye? That's the only similarities I can think of.

Remaiki:

krazykidd:

The game rewards experimentation , i do sometimes wonder ,why don't people experiment more ? Why don't they try to figure things out on their own? Why must we tell them EVERYTHING ? But that's just me . I just find it weird that no one TRIES anymore . Everything seemingly have to be given to them in advance , or not we get frustrated .

Well, my take on it is that people don't want to be finding mechanics that could very well not exist. If the game goes "here this is what you have to learn," then people spend less time chasing things may not exist and more actually learning and getting good at the damn mechanics.

Of course, I'm talking about mechanics here, not like the Alchemy in Skyrim(if I remember correctly), which is a clear defined mechanic that actually includes experimentation.

Sure , if you NEED those things to survive . But on dark souls you don't . Not mentioning the fact that most, if not all ,those things are written in the asylum . Hell i'm sure you could beat the game without blocking, let alone running . To run you just need to hold down one button , and the OP didn't figure that out , i mean seriously, the mentality of gamers need to change . I remember reading about testers who played Dishonored , and didn't go up some staires because a guard in game told them not to . They didn't even try . Had they tried they would have been able to go . That's an extreme example , and it seems to be more and more typically of gamers now a days .

Yes i know not everyone is as experienced in gaming , i get that , but for crying out loud , try , try different button combinations , try something, who knows maybe you'll find somethinf usefull.

BloatedGuppy:
They're completely dissimilar.

They both require iterative knowledge and they both require spatial awareness, but those are general gaming skills. You could just as easily attempt to compare a flight simulator to a puzzle game if you want to be that general about it.

The skill cap in Dark Souls is almost entirely about twitch and pattern recognition. Old school arcade players would feel very at home.

The skill cap in DOTA is primarily concerned with team cohesion and coordination.

Knowledge of enemy capabilities, positioning, and equipment. Yes Dota 2 has more with its team components but from a single person perspective they are similar.

BloatedGuppy:
And really, unless you're a professional gamer, Billy, you should probably lay off the shit talking entirely. It's not flattering, and it's going to end up with you neck deep in multiple flame wars.

My name isn't Billy. No I'm not a professional gamer but I had dreams at one point.

Andrew Andrew:
Knowledge of enemy capabilities, positioning, and equipment. Yes Dota 2 has more with its team components but from a single person perspective they are similar.

Again, that's iterative knowledge. You need that for every fucking game you'll ever play. It does not imply that they are remotely similar, and the way you apply that knowledge is completely different.

BloatedGuppy:
My name isn't Billy. No I'm not a professional gamer but I had dreams at one point.

Oh for god's sake I know that and YOU KNOW WHY I AM CALLING YOU BILLY.

krazykidd:
To run you just need to hold down one button , and the OP didn't figure that out , i mean seriously, the mentality of gamers need to change . I remember reading about testers who played Dishonored , and didn't go up some staires because a guard in game told them not to . They didn't even try . Had they tried they would have been able to go . That's an extreme example , and it seems to be more and more typically of gamers now a days

You are referring to how to keep a flea from jumping out of a jar. Put it in a jar with a lid and and the flea will hit its back against the lid. After a month, take off the lid and the flea will stay in the jar. Gamers have been trained to do what they are told. Our entire society teaches us to do what we are told. Games are reflective of our culture and if you want games to change, change our culture.

BloatedGuppy:
Oh for god's sake I know that and YOU KNOW WHY I AM CALLING YOU BILLY.

:P I like you.

BloatedGuppy:

Andrew Andrew:
Aww you're too sweet. I'm not that good at video games. But Dark souls and dota have more in common than you think. Just because they are presented differently doesn't mean the skills involved are dissimilar.

They're completely dissimilar.

They both require iterative knowledge and they both require spatial awareness, but those are general gaming skills. You could just as easily attempt to compare a flight simulator to a puzzle game if you want to be that general about it.

The skill cap in Dark Souls is almost entirely about twitch and pattern recognition. Old school arcade players would feel very at home.

The skill cap in DOTA is primarily concerned with team cohesion and coordination.

One is a team multiplayer game, the other is a single player RPG with a garnish of occasional deathmatches.

Other than the fact they both have a "D" in the title there's virtually nothing to link them. It's like shit talking someone who is good at basketball because he's a poor hand at model ship building.

And really, unless you're a professional gamer, Billy, you should probably lay off the shit talking entirely. It's not flattering, and it's going to end up with you neck deep in multiple flame wars.

erttheking:
A combination of the two and some other things. Come back and talk about the bosses when after you fight these two. I guarantee you that you won't be thinking the same way.

You know, I feel like those two got oversold. I beat them on my first try. A very long, very stressful try that ate all my potions and firepots, but my first try nonetheless.

I found Stray Demon much worse for some reason.

"...Billy, you should probably lay off the shit talking entirely. It's not flattering, and it's going to end up with you neck deep in multiple flame wars....."

So I guess Billy has successfully skirted the posting guidelines with an inflammatory and trolling thread. Yay! :) Billy, pat yourself on the back and maybe try for a more mature title next time, other than "XXXX Game is lame".

I love Ninja Gaiden Black. It's one of my favorite games. Well either that or the vanilla version on Xbox. I also love Dark Souls. WOAHHHHHHHH MIND BLOWN.

kman123:
I love Ninja Gaiden Black. It's one of my favorite games. Well either that or the vanilla version on Xbox. I also love Dark Souls. WOAHHHHHHHH MIND BLOWN.

NO WAI. I think dark souls is ok, but it isn't the amazingness everyone proclaims and it isn't even close to ninja gaiden. I do wish it had an easy mode so I could see the amamzing sights without the dick stomping/snoozefest combat.

ClockWyze:
So I guess Billy has successfully skirted the posting guidelines with an inflammatory and trolling thread. Yay! ;) Billy, pat yourself on the back and maybe try for a more mature title next time, other than "XXXX Game is lame".

Bob, This wasn't a troll post (see what I did there ;D). I honestly think Dark Souls could use some reworking and I made a comparison to a much better game. As a teacher myself I found how this game taught its lessons to be inadequate.

Andrew Andrew:

krazykidd:
To run you just need to hold down one button , and the OP didn't figure that out , i mean seriously, the mentality of gamers need to change . I remember reading about testers who played Dishonored , and didn't go up some staires because a guard in game told them not to . They didn't even try . Had they tried they would have been able to go . That's an extreme example , and it seems to be more and more typically of gamers now a days

You are referring to how to keep a flea from jumping out of a jar. Put it in a jar with a lid and and the flea will hit its back against the lid. After a month, take off the lid and the flea will stay in the jar. Gamers have been trained to do what they are told. Our entire society teaches us to do what we are told. Games are reflective of our culture and if you want games to change, change our culture.

You're right . You couldn't be more right even . It saddens me just as much as it baffles me . But it wasn't always this way . I think that's why it frustrates me so much . Just to make it clear i'm not looking down on anyone , it just makes me wonder why it has come to this point.

I really shouldn't be posting in one of these silly threads, but well... I dunno.
The OP's problems can be summed as followed:
1. The protagonist doesn't play like a ninja, but like a fragile human, and the gameplay style compensates for such.
2. The game actually punishes you for death.
3. The game doesn't spoon feed you every last detail because apparently the satisfactory tutorial isn't enough.
All three points aren't very good and this is further complicated with the OP barely into the game.

Essentially, OP, your opinion is too uninformed for a thread like this to be taken seriously. Play the game some more before you start bashing it like "Angry Birds isn't a casual game because Farmville is casual."

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