Knights of the Old Republic 1 or Knights of the Old Republic 2?
KotoR!
34.5% (87)
34.5% (87)
KotoR 2
65.5% (165)
65.5% (165)
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Poll: KotoR vs KotoR 2 (Mods allowed!)

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With the release and free-to-play conversion of The Old Republic by Bioware and talk of Obsidian seeking to do a new Star Wars RPG, I think it's time to bring back that age old battle, even older than Fallout 3 vs New Vegas:

What is the best Star Wars RPG ever?

Knights of the Old Republic (Bioware)
vs
Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords (Obsidian)

We're going to assume you've modded both of them out, so you can have Solomon's Revenge for KotoR and The Sith Lord Restoration Mod for KotoR2.

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I'm going to come out and say out, KotoR2 blows the first game into dust. KotoR is not a bad game, but in comparison to 2 its bland, poorly written and unadventurous (Only in comparison). It's only advantages are a better ending and a nice twist.

Look at the party system. 1 has the robotic talk to X every Y missions and choose lightside suck up conversation options to advance relationship. In 2 the companions look at what you do and respond to them. In 1 it was possible to be best friends and trusted by the kind-hearted little orphan girl whilst you went around slaughtering puppies. In 2, she'd see you doing that and call you out on it and not trust you. In 2 that characters have complex motivations that you have to respond to you, one character in particular will like you more if you tell her 'I'll treat you as disposable then'. Another one likes to see you kind hearted, bbut murders excite him and stir up a part he's get surpressed. He's loyal, but he can see when you try to persuade and manipulate him and he hates it. In 2, how you gain people's trust says something about who they are and will often hint at the secrets in their backstories.

...and the characters themselves. KotoR has Jolee Bindo and HK-47 and maybe Bastila and everyone else is either unmemorable or actively boring (Carth). KotoR 2 has HK-47 but better, more meaningful and funnier (droid factory!). It has Visas Marr, unique with a huge backstory(also the hottest character to appear in star wars). It has Kreia, Atton, the Handmaiden and T3-M4

And lets talk about that. T3 appears in both games. In 1 he has no personality at all, Bioware looked at him and thought, well he's a robot and he can't speak, we can do nothing with him and so they included him as basically dead weight. In 2 he still doesn't speak and yet somehow he's got one of the strongest personalities in the game and is completely endearing.

Even the less memorable characters (GoTO, the engineer and the Bounty Hunter) have incredible backstories if you unlock them and big story moments. The only weak character is the Disciple.

And did I mention in KotoR 2 you can turn people into Jedi?

The writing in general is leagues better in 2. In 1 at the beginning of the game the dialogue clunks with exposition and people ask questions which they wouldn't ask if they really lived in that world (almost 'What is a jedi' type dialogue). In 2, they actually assume a history, instead of spouting exposition at you, your character will reveal information in his own dialogue options. People don't tell you about Malachor, instead _you_ talk about Malachor and we can pick up the meaning from that.

...oh and Malachor. KotoR 1 did that fairly well, but KotoR 2 amps everything up, talking about the very nature of war and how it destroys the people who take part in it. It actually makes you relive scenes from Malachor (which you can do in the mod for KotoR1 admittedly) and makes choices and finally decide if what you did was right. KotoR 1 shies away from that and lumps everything in the end to a 'Took over the galaxy/Got medals and had a party' dichotomy.

---------------------------------
I could talk more but I think it's clear by now that in my mind KotoR 2 is very much the superior game and if the last level had been more finished then there would be no contest at all

I also thought the second game was better than the first.

In fact, I've never understood why people like the first game. It had a cool twist and a couple of cool moments and that's it. Didn't like the characters, was bored silly by the setting and actively hated the combat.

Second game had better characters and more interesting dialogue. Combat still sucked seven flavours of arse though. Also, it was buggy and broken. And no, I don't consider mods to be an excuse for a game that is released in a buggy and broken state. Besides, I'm not even sure if the mods were released back when I played the game and the game isn't worth playing again to experience the restored content.

KotOR2, even without mods. I know Star Wars is supposed to be built on a stark black vs white moral dichotomy, and KotOR2 pretty much spit in its face, but I like it when my moralities mix a little bit.

I agree, KOTOR 2 is far and away superior to the first in almost every regard except for the ending. The story was massively more interesting, the combat was improved and felt much less repetitive, and the characters were very complex and interesting.

With mods? Kotor 2. Although replaying the game just recently I have to admit the M4-78 addon still needs a lot of work but in general once you add the Restored Content Mod to Kotor 2 it just becomes a fantastic experience.

Probably the most clever take on the Star Wars setting to date really. I like that!

With mods, definitely KOTOR 2. Better characters, more engaging story, nice grey vs. black morality...KOTOR 1 is great as well, but KOTOR 2 stepped it up a notch.

LetalisK:
KotOR2, even without mods. I know Star Wars is supposed to be built on a stark black vs white moral dichotomy, and KotOR2 pretty much spit in its face, but I like it when my moralities mix a little bit.

thebobmaster:
With mods, definitely KOTOR 2. Better characters, more engaging story, nice grey vs. black morality...KOTOR 1 is great as well, but KOTOR 2 stepped it up a notch.

These two comments pretty much sum up my problem with KoTOR 2 (Despite putting it as a plus)

Star Wars is supposed to be nice black and white, I don't see our societies need to make everything grey and grey. I do love my grey, but in the right places; a galaxy where a bunch of monks in bathrobs hit each other with light swords is not really a setting for grey. (Other series that need to get over themselves and realize they're just supposed to be fun: Lord of the Rings, The Elder Scrolls)

Of course I'll get the knee jerk "Things need to GROWWW" or "You're just too simplistic" comments but honestly fuck that. I miss when things were wonderfully over the top and unapologetic for it.

Also KoTOR 2 had the problem of being broken at release, I don't want to hear excuses, it was broken and that's how I had to play it. Nobody forgives Oblivion for being odd and broken even with a large modding community, lets not pull a double standard and have the basis be "Judge it by its release".

And despite being a sequel they kept the absolutely BROKEN combat of the first, I mean, seriously, what the fuck?

and Darth-dickhedincharge-Nihilus was meh as a character, despite being held up as some ultimate villian. At least malak knew he was evil and ridiculousness and flew with it.

In short, not everything has to be uber edgy and grey and fuck the combat.

So yeah, KoTOR 1 for the win. (Minus it's horrible combat, facial animations, and opening level.)

Zhukov:
I also thought the second game was better than the first.

In fact, I've never understood why people like the first game. It had a cool twist and a couple of cool moments and that's it. Didn't like the characters, was bored silly by the setting and actively hated the combat.

Second game had better characters and more interesting dialogue. Combat still sucked seven flavours of arse though. Also, it was buggy and broken. And no, I don't consider mods to be an excuse for a game that is released in a buggy and broken state. Besides, I'm not even sure if the mods were released back when I played the game and the game isn't worth playing again to experience the restored content.

I loved KOTOR because it was sort of a childhood experience for me, like when some guy's hot mum feels you up.

*ahem*

Anyway, KOTOR set the stage for me that games could be a deeper and more emotionally invested experience than I previously thought, and the setting, the storyline and the general Star Wars atmosphere just blew me away.

And then KOTOR 2 came and blew me away even more.
So yeah, KOTOR 2 is a much better game. But KOTOR did set the blueprints, and it's a GOOD thing that KOTOR 2 was better because isn't that what a sequel is meant to do?

kman123:

Zhukov:
I also thought the second game was better than the first.

In fact, I've never understood why people like the first game. It had a cool twist and a couple of cool moments and that's it. Didn't like the characters, was bored silly by the setting and actively hated the combat.

Second game had better characters and more interesting dialogue. Combat still sucked seven flavours of arse though. Also, it was buggy and broken. And no, I don't consider mods to be an excuse for a game that is released in a buggy and broken state. Besides, I'm not even sure if the mods were released back when I played the game and the game isn't worth playing again to experience the restored content.

I loved KOTOR because it was sort of a childhood experience for me, like when some guy's hot mum feels you up.

image

just...WHAT? citation needed... :D

kman123:

Anyway, KOTOR set the stage for me that games could be a deeper and more emotionally invested experience than I previously thought, and the setting, the storyline and the general Star Wars atmosphere just blew me away.

And then KOTOR 2 came and blew me away even more.
So yeah, KOTOR 2 is a much better game. But KOTOR did set the blueprints, and it's a GOOD thing that KOTOR 2 was better because isn't that what a sequel is meant to do?

i did love kotor, but holy fuck did kotor 2 give kotor a wedgie and showed it how great star wars COULD be. crash landing on dxun in a basalisk and charging up that wall..fuckin loved it.

p.s. to be honest, i've never minded the pause/real time rpg combat, not in the slightest, so i've never considered that as a negative against rpg's that do it, i just consider it a different flavor for different people.

Saviordd1:

Star Wars is supposed to be nice black and white...

No it's not, the first two films where a lot more morally ambiguous than people remember.

Saviordd1:

Star Wars is supposed to be nice black and white, I don't see our societies need to make everything grey and grey. I do love my grey, but in the right places; a galaxy where a bunch of monks in bathrobs hit each other with light swords is not really a setting for grey. (Other series that need to get over themselves and realize they're just supposed to be fun: Lord of the Rings, The Elder Scrolls)

Star Wars was only ever clever in the original trilogy and everything since has just been people trying to recapture that original magic and generally failing miserably. As a result the entire franchise has been languishing in a fetid mix of nostalgia and idiocy ever since...

That is with the exception of Kotor 2 and, to a lesser extent since it did have the gall to set a game in a different time-frame, the original Kotor. And for me at least anything that tries to break out of the shit-stained rut that Star Wars has fallen into is an improvement, the more change the better!

I'd take shades of grey (50?) over another boring ass reprisal of the same damned premise anyday. All hail Kotor 2! The most broken and yet refreshing thing to have come out of Star Wars in years.

JazzJack2:

Saviordd1:

Star Wars is supposed to be nice black and white...

No it's not, the first two films where a lot more morally ambiguous than people remember.

Yes, an army of look a like clones (Or, if we don't follow the prequels, evil men) ordered around by men in nazi-esque uniforms who blew up planets to prove points.

How grey.

The Madman:

Saviordd1:

Star Wars is supposed to be nice black and white, I don't see our societies need to make everything grey and grey. I do love my grey, but in the right places; a galaxy where a bunch of monks in bathrobs hit each other with light swords is not really a setting for grey. (Other series that need to get over themselves and realize they're just supposed to be fun: Lord of the Rings, The Elder Scrolls)

Star Wars was only ever clever in the original trilogy and everything since has just been people trying to recapture that original magic and generally failing miserably. As a result the entire franchise has been languishing in a fetid mix of nostalgia and idiocy ever since...

That is with the exception of Kotor 2 and, to a lesser extent since it did have the gall to set a game in a different time-frame, the original Kotor. And for me at least anything that tries to break out of the shit-stained rut that Star Wars has fallen into is an improvement, the more change the better!

I'd take shades of grey (50?) over another boring ass reprisal of the same damned premise anyday. All hail Kotor 2!

Everything? Like the prequels? Cause that's about it.

Everything in the game market at least was either an expansion to the original series or a rompfest IN the original series. And it worked (Including some game I barely remember where shooting Wompas was fun as hell).

And news for you, KoTOR 2 isn't jesus. It had a lot of flaws ignoring its grey and grey (COMBAT! DEAR GOD WHY DIDN'T THEY FIX THE COMBAT) and even basing the story on story merits was meh at best. KoTOR one got away with it because, hey, its star wars, ridiculousness is the call of the day with lasers and aforementioned monks with laser swords. The moment it tries to take itself seriously however it looks like ass and becomes absolutely laughable.

Saviordd1:

Everything? Like the prequels? Cause that's about it.

Everything in the game market at least was either an expansion to the original series or a rompfest IN the original series. And it worked (Including some game I barely remember where shooting Wompas was fun as hell).

And news for you, KoTOR 2 isn't jesus. It had a lot of flaws ignoring its grey and grey (COMBAT! DEAR GOD WHY DIDN'T THEY FIX THE COMBAT) and even basing the story on story merits was meh at best. KoTOR one got away with it because, hey, its star wars, ridiculousness is the call of the day with lasers and aforementioned monks with laser swords. The moment it tries to take itself seriously however it looks like ass and becomes absolutely laughable.

Why can't it be Jesus? At least we know Kotor 2 exists, that's a step up from most deities.

And everything like everything, although the Prequels are the most obvious signs of it. Even other Star Wars games I liked; Jedi Knight 2 and Jedi Academy, Rogue Squadron, Rebel Assault. They're all just reprisal of the same damned Star Wars stuff again and again, milking nostalgia for all its worth.

It's toys. The entire Star Wars franchise since the original has been nothing but toys and products meant to sell toys. So for all its flaws I'd take something new and original out of the franchise than yet another reprise of the same damned thing.

Saviordd1:

JazzJack2:

Saviordd1:

Star Wars is supposed to be nice black and white...

No it's not, the first two films where a lot more morally ambiguous than people remember.

Yes, an army of look a like clones (Or, if we don't follow the prequels, evil men) ordered around by men in nazi-esque uniforms who blew up planets to prove points.

How grey.

No but protagonists who gun down people in cold blood, betray their best friends and slice off people's arms in bar fights are hardly clear cut good guys.

JazzJack2:

Saviordd1:

JazzJack2:

No it's not, the first two films where a lot more morally ambiguous than people remember.

Yes, an army of look a like clones (Or, if we don't follow the prequels, evil men) ordered around by men in nazi-esque uniforms who blew up planets to prove points.

How grey.

No but protagonists who gun down people in cold blood, betray their best friends and slice off people's arms in bar fights are hardly clear cut good guys.

"Gun down people" meaning the faceless, emotionless killbot men trying to kill them. (We call that a survival instinct son)

Betray their best friends? You mean Lando? The only sorta-grey guy in the entire series? One morally conflicted character hardly makes a series grey. (See lord of the rings and Boromir)

And slicing off the arm of someone about to kill them...hmm, yes, how grey.

You can argue it all you want but in the end Star Wars was basically "Good guys versus bad guys"

Saviordd1:

Of course I'll get the knee jerk "Things need to GROWWW" or "You're just too simplistic" comments but honestly fuck that. I miss when things were wonderfully over the top and unapologetic for it.

Or I'll simply say different strokes for different folks. People have different preferences, it just so happened KotOR2 aligned with mine.

Saviordd1:

JazzJack2:

Saviordd1:

Yes, an army of look a like clones (Or, if we don't follow the prequels, evil men) ordered around by men in nazi-esque uniforms who blew up planets to prove points.

How grey.

No but protagonists who gun down people in cold blood, betray their best friends and slice off people's arms in bar fights are hardly clear cut good guys.

"Gun down people" meaning the faceless, emotionless killbot men trying to kill them. (We call that a survival instinct son)

"

A) I was actually referring to Han gunning down Greedo

B) Storm troopers aren't mindless kill bots, the film clearly depicts them as ordinary joes who are just doing a job.

Saviordd1:

JazzJack2:

Saviordd1:

Yes, an army of look a like clones (Or, if we don't follow the prequels, evil men) ordered around by men in nazi-esque uniforms who blew up planets to prove points.

How grey.

No but protagonists who gun down people in cold blood, betray their best friends and slice off people's arms in bar fights are hardly clear cut good guys.

"Gun down people" meaning the faceless, emotionless killbot men trying to kill them. (We call that a survival instinct son)

Betray their best friends? You mean Lando? The only sorta-grey guy in the entire series? One morally conflicted character hardly makes a series grey. (See lord of the rings and Boromir)

And slicing off the arm of someone about to kill them...hmm, yes, how grey.

You can argue it all you want but in the end Star Wars was basically "Good guys versus bad guys"

I'm pretty much positive that by the cold blood reference he meant how Han Solo shot greedo first. With regards to blowing up a planet, surly you can think of one very specific case in real life where a similar action was taken because of the theory that it would help shorten a conflict.

the original movies also covered the topics of sacrifice, temptation, redemption, the concept of history repeating itself, and more, which i feel hardly goes into traditional super black/white good evil.

JazzJack2:

Saviordd1:

JazzJack2:

No but protagonists who gun down people in cold blood, betray their best friends and slice off people's arms in bar fights are hardly clear cut good guys.

"Gun down people" meaning the faceless, emotionless killbot men trying to kill them. (We call that a survival instinct son)

"

A) I was actually referring to Han gunning down Greedo

B) Storm troopers aren't mindless kill bots, the film clearly depicts them as ordinary joes who are just doing a job.

Okay, 2 morally odd character. One of which becomes a straight up good guy 5 minutes later.

Really? That's why they didn't mind killing other people, or wearing armor that clearly says "I AM EVIL" or being with an orginizaton that blows up planets, or kills locals for answers, or whose boss chokes people in a rage, or hates non-humans, or etc etc.

Empire=Evil, its not complicated.

Reven:

Saviordd1:

JazzJack2:

No but protagonists who gun down people in cold blood, betray their best friends and slice off people's arms in bar fights are hardly clear cut good guys.

"Gun down people" meaning the faceless, emotionless killbot men trying to kill them. (We call that a survival instinct son)

Betray their best friends? You mean Lando? The only sorta-grey guy in the entire series? One morally conflicted character hardly makes a series grey. (See lord of the rings and Boromir)

And slicing off the arm of someone about to kill them...hmm, yes, how grey.

You can argue it all you want but in the end Star Wars was basically "Good guys versus bad guys"

I'm pretty much positive that by the cold blood reference he meant how Han Solo shot greedo first. With regards to blowing up a planet, surly you can think of one very specific case in real life where a similar action was taken because of the theory that it would help shorten a conflict.

the original movies also covered the topics of sacrifice, temptation, redemption, the concept of history repeating itself, and more, which i feel hardly goes into traditional super black/white good evil.

Having themes and interesting ideas doesn't put it on the grey train.

Grey refers to having characters and factions who are neither right nor wrong. Having interesting ideas behind a black and white premise doesn't make it grey. (See the lord of the rings or harry potter)

Not really sure this is a fair fight - after all, KOTOR2 has the advantage of being a sequel, being able to expand on its good points, being able to learn from its mistakes AND being written by Chris Avellone.

It's KOTOR2 for me too, but in my mind it's a much closer margin than it appears to be for a lot of other people. KOTOR was nowhere near as ambitious as its sequel, but I also give it a hell of a lot of credit for being fun and for not being broken. I first played KOTOR2 long before the restored content mod came out, and you know what they say about first impressions...

Personally? I think everyone is giving Kotor2 way too much credit. Sure, it is a fine game and has all sorts of fun moments, but it also has SO many flaws, and I'm going to, for arguments sake, ignore the horribly unfinished parts that it has.

Firstly, Kreia....This crazy woman who is apparently made of tough stuff and apparently quite intelligent. However, in all the times I have played and replayed this game, I have always found her intolerable. For 1, she seems to give NOTHING but dark side points. She brings up a good point? Dark side. You disagree? Dark side, and respect lost. Nothing happens? Respect lost. You could not please that woman if you brought her the galaxy on its knees and said "HERE, DO WHAT YOU WANT." 2nd, the stories of the characters can kind of....jump out of nowhere. Atton, for example, is apparently some super assassin with super mental powers to match. But it doesn't actually show at all, even AFTER you know about all this. You still get his stand-up-again bonus thing, and....thats about it.

Next, Combat at times can be horribly, HORRIBLY broken. As in, play your cards right and you can be a GOD, force jumping and one shotting Sith lords without a care. Or, you can build them differently and end up with a character who is lucky to KILL a Sith lord without horribly drugging up and running for it. Its a game that can't seem to hit a nice balance for what combat should or shouldn't be.

And then, the overall story arc....At first, it was all kind of mysterious and tricky, but once you manage to get away from Telos, it just devolves into a "Lets go here and find Jedi to learn....things about me from years ago that probably don't mean much any more." Frankly, in KotoR1, you were searching for star maps, hunting for something specific, and when you were trying to find something it had Galactic consequences weighing on your shoulders. What happens if you don't find the other Jedi for the exile? Well.....nothing really. Nothing good or bad is coming from your questing, just deaths and...thats about it.

So yeah...Kotor1 for me.

KotoR 2 is just incredible once you leave Peragus until the very end where they ran out of time or money or whatever and ruined the ending a bit. It has incredible characters like Kreia (seriously, can't stress her enough) Visas, Atton, Mira, Handmaiden (kinda), even T3 is fun; the others are mostly forgettable since I can't for the life of me remember what the Disciple's story was, while Bao-Dur, GOTO and the others were just there. I've heared complaints about Kreia that she's unpleasble from many people, but that's not the case. The only thing she wanted was for you to be open-minded and show her that you are willing to learn. She never DEMANDS anything from you, just for you to consider her advice.

It was a total deconstruction of the Force and how people perceive it. The best Star Wars media ever in my opinion, while Kreia is one of the most, if not the most, interesting characters in gaming period. It clearly showed that Obsidian's writers are brilliant, if not outright geniuses. Ok, maybe I'm gushing a bit, but I really think they nailed it.

KotoR 1 in comparison was rather bland and vaguely boring, still an incredible experience, but doesn't hold a candle to 2.

gmaverick019:

i did love kotor, but holy fuck did kotor 2 give kotor a wedgie and showed it how great star wars COULD be. crash landing on dxun in a basalisk and charging up that wall..fuckin loved it.

Oh god I hated that scene. Not because of the break-in or the idea of crashing in on a basilisk war droid, but because of what they used for the basilisk's model. Canderous had painted a very nice picture of the darn thing as a killer-droid mount in KoTOR1...and what did we get in KoTOR2? The StarViper from Shadows of the Empire. Honestly I'd have considered that to be downright inexcusible if I didn't know about how the pubs rushed the game out (which mandates that I cut the dev team some slack). As it stands, it's my second biggest pet peeve of that game (the first being the choppiness of the ending even with the Restored Content Mod).

And I really do have to agree with UnusualStranger. KoTOR2 was definitely more ambitious and had the makings of a potentially better tale, but at the end of the day KoTOR itself was a much more tightly woven narrative, which works to its advantage. KoTOR2 did a great job at adding depth to the universe and had some very interesting character concepts, but ultimately you had a better motivation and conflict in its predecessor.

UnusualStranger:

And then, the overall story arc....At first, it was all kind of mysterious and tricky, but once you manage to get away from Telos, it just devolves into a "Lets go here and find Jedi to learn....things about me from years ago that probably don't mean much any more." Frankly, in KotoR1, you were searching for star maps, hunting for something specific, and when you were trying to find something it had Galactic consequences weighing on your shoulders. What happens if you don't find the other Jedi for the exile? Well.....nothing really. Nothing good or bad is coming from your questing, just deaths and...thats about it.

So yeah...Kotor1 for me.

That's actually a draw for me. I'm sick of saving the world/galaxy/universe. I've done it a million times in a million different games. What I've begun to find much more compelling are stories where the main draw is the protagonist trying to save themselves.

I also really like the way Kotor 2 presents the main protagonist as an actual character instead of falling into the all too common 'faceless pastless rpg protagonist' trope. It felt like your character had a history and feelings of their own, heavily influenced by how the player chooses to play the character. That element added a great deal towards making the game feel more personal than most rpg do. Atris for example (White robed jedi lady) had feelings for your character, admired them even and what happened to your character as well as how you choose to play them has a huge effect on her actions. She doesn't exist merely as a landmark or obstacle, she has goals and purpose that tie in closely to your own. It makes her feel like a character and the story by extension feel more personal.

Kotor 2 also takes the time to try and explain characters in context of the game. In the first Kotor for example there's that wide-eyed innocent lil' blue alien girl who's all cheerful and chipper right to the end (Unless you kill her as sith, which admitedly is awesomely twisted!) despite, gameplay wise, having just murdered hundreds of people at your side throughout the game. It's not a game breaker, I'm used to ignoring gameplay/story inconsistencies. But Kotor 2 is one of the few games I've ever played that takes a moment to step back and say 'hey, this is messed up. We should probably explain why these characters would do this' and I appreciate the thought put into that. Again, it makes them feel more realistic and by extension, the story more personal.

Hell, Kotor 2 did a better job of making Revan a character than Kotor 1 did and he's not even in the game. In Kotor 1 all you really know is that Revan went all sith on the Jedi's asses, that's about it really. It's Kotor 2 that took a shot at giving Revan purpose beyond simply being some angry sith person, try to explain the 'why' and the 'how' of it all beyond the old Star Wars standby of 'dark side got-em' like it's some condition you can catch if you're grumpy too often.

But then that's my take on the game. I can understand the appeal of the sweeping massive scale rpg, hell, I've played enough of em and games like Baldur's Gate 2 which certainly is one of those 'epic' games are among my favourites. But sometimes it's nice to slow down and enjoy a more up-close take on the typical rpg story.

The Madman:

That's actually a draw for me. I'm sick of saving the world/galaxy/universe. I've done it a million times in a million different games. What I've begun to find much more compelling are stories where the main draw is the protagonist trying to save themselves.

I also really like the way Kotor 2 presents the main protagonist as an actual character instead of falling into the all too common 'faceless pastless rpg protagonist' trope. It felt like your character had a history and feelings of their own, heavily influenced by how the player chooses to play the character. That element added a great deal towards making the game feel more personal than most rpg do.

Hey, its fine to not want to save the galaxy again, and have it all on the line. But it feels really off when you end up facing a galaxy ending threat and...your character doesn't really care. "Galaxy villains are after me, but I need to figure out how to help myself!" Just seems...well, odd. As in, ignoring the problem.

But anyways, while I understand trying to give the Exile character, the problem is that you as the player DON'T KNOW what kind of character they are. There are times in dialogue choices, (especially when chatting with Atris) where you don't know what the hell they are even going on about. As in, the characters are discussing things that you never knew or experienced. Its great to have a character be their own person, but....not if I am playing as that character and I don't really know what they are at all.

And speaking of character explanations....of course Kotor 2 could expand all of Revan's story. Largely because his story was now all done and could be kinda figured out. During Kotor 1 he was STILL an active player and there was still a war going on. People don't have time to care about a big hero/villain when they are in danger of being bombed back to oblivion. For me, many of the characters just kind of fell flat aka Mandalore, Handmaiden.

Asita:

gmaverick019:

i did love kotor, but holy fuck did kotor 2 give kotor a wedgie and showed it how great star wars COULD be. crash landing on dxun in a basalisk and charging up that wall..fuckin loved it.

Oh god I hated that scene. Not because of the break-in or the idea of crashing in on a basilisk war droid, but because of what they used for the basilisk's model. Canderous had painted a very nice picture of the darn thing as a killer-droid mount in KoTOR1...and what did we get in KoTOR2? The StarViper from Shadows of the Empire. Honestly I'd have considered that to be downright inexcusible if I didn't know about how the pubs rushed the game out (which mandates that I cut the dev team some slack). As it stands, it's my second biggest pet peeve of that game (the first being the choppiness of the ending even with the Restored Content Mod).

And I really do have to agree with UnusualStranger. KoTOR2 was definitely more ambitious and had the makings of a potentially better tale, but at the end of the day KoTOR itself was a much more tightly woven narrative, which works to its advantage. KoTOR2 did a great job at adding depth to the universe and had some very interesting character concepts, but ultimately you had a better motivation and conflict in its predecessor.

while i understand that it is inaccurate for the swap, i just subbed that out in my mind because of the fact that everything else about it was awesome. and if THAT is your second biggest pet peeve of the game, you really must've loved the game, because that is such a tiny ass detail.

but oh well, i still loved kotor 1 to be honest, but if i had to break it down i would say i loved kotor 2 much more, especially for the expanded gameplay/customization elements of it all, plus the interconnectivity between your party of characters was genius i thought (how it was all voiced/reacted in situations) i really miss that...dragon age did a slightly different style of it, which was nice, but didn't quite hit the same vein that kotor 2 did.

UnusualStranger:

Hey, its fine to not want to save the galaxy again, and have it all on the line. But it feels really off when you end up facing a galaxy ending threat and...your character doesn't really care. "Galaxy villains are after me, but I need to figure out how to help myself!" Just seems...well, odd. As in, ignoring the problem.

But anyways, while I understand trying to give the Exile character, the problem is that you as the player DON'T KNOW what kind of character they are. There are times in dialogue choices, (especially when chatting with Atris) where you don't know what the hell they are even going on about. As in, the characters are discussing things that you never knew or experienced. Its great to have a character be their own person, but....not if I am playing as that character and I don't really know what they are at all.

And speaking of character explanations....of course Kotor 2 could expand all of Revan's story. Largely because his story was now all done and could be kinda figured out. During Kotor 1 he was STILL an active player and there was still a war going on. People don't have time to care about a big hero/villain when they are in danger of being bombed back to oblivion. For me, many of the characters just kind of fell flat aka Mandalore, Handmaiden.

The idea for the dialogue is that you choose based on how you think your character would have acted in said situations, not necessarily 'the exile', and thus your choices not only effect how your characters acts in the present but how they acted in the past as well. It's a damned clever idea that I think could have been better done if they'd had good voice acting for the protagonist... which isn't something I say often since a lot of my favourite rpg involve silent protagonist, but in Kotor 2's case I think a good voice actors inflection to the lines could have made the developers intentions much more clear and the dramatic moments all the more powerful. I really do love the idea however, it's a neat idea for creating an rpg character with a past without having to resort to a Mass Effect style list of possible history options on character creation.

As for the villains the majority of the game has them acting in shadows. You're not ignoring them, it's just, well, what else can you do? Unlike Kotor 1 there's no clear villain with an army at their sides, in this case you have a series of antagonist striking at various times for their own reasons but always in secret. Assassins sent in small groups, shadowy organizations working in the background. That's also the reason for the protagonist to pursue personal vendetta; your existence is going to draw your enemies to you regardless of what you do, and pursuing those personal plights might help things along so why not? I can see the frustration with the seeming lack of urgency, but it is explained.

And finally for Revan, you've a point. I do think it could have been better done in Kotor 1 however. As for Mandalore, spoiler I guess, he's Canderous from the first game. He's got some interesting stories to tell regardless of that if you get enough influence with him as well, which is nice, but the first game already went over most of his core character. Heck, his goals and motivations are given more time than Revans are, go figure.

Incidentally I just replayed Kotor 2 last week which is why this is all so fresh in my mind. Convenient timing!

UnusualStranger:

But anyways, while I understand trying to give the Exile character, the problem is that you as the player DON'T KNOW what kind of character they are. There are times in dialogue choices, (especially when chatting with Atris) where you don't know what the hell they are even going on about. As in, the characters are discussing things that you never knew or experienced. Its great to have a character be their own person, but....not if I am playing as that character and I don't really know what they are at all.

Oh that's a difference of taste, I absolutely love that kind of conversation because it keeps you on your toes and your brain has to be really active processing the information. One of the biggest problems with normal expositions drops is it's all too slow. In real life we automatically read a crud load of subtext behind every phrase ('I had the most awful hangover after last night' = 'I feel like some sympathy right now' 'I had a crazy good night last night' etc) and in fiction because we don't have experience of living with that person and seeing them in the flesh, we're missing all that stuff. Characters talking about events we don't know adds another layer of thought to bring us back up to an exciting level. Part of the fun is solving the mystery of who the PC is.

And in terms of this game, all the history was factual stuff and it still fitted with a lot of different personality types and would still lead to pretty much any character you'd choose to roleplay in the hear and now. For Atris you realise they were close but parted ways and thats all thats needed to set the tone of the conversation.

UnusualStranger:

Firstly, Kreia....This crazy woman who is apparently made of tough stuff and apparently quite intelligent. However, in all the times I have played and replayed this game, I have always found her intolerable. For 1, she seems to give NOTHING but dark side points. She brings up a good point? Dark side. You disagree? Dark side, and respect lost. Nothing happens? Respect lost. You could not please that woman if you brought her the galaxy on its knees and said "HERE, DO WHAT YOU WANT."

There's a trick to pleasing Kreia, once you know that she respects neither light side or dark side but wants you to listen to what she says, every single point with her falls under that. Literally in any situation you can just say 'I will think upon what you said' and you get influence with her.

And the dark side points are a subtle point to one of the games big themes. The idea is, that if you use dishonourable methods to do a good thing, that act will eat away at you. The jedi joined the mandalorian war out of a good heart, but Revan understood that by being involved with a war it would destroy them from the inside and turn them. In the same way, when Kreia argues that being a dick to this person is better for them overall, thats the same trap so agreeing gives dark side points. It's telling that despite claiming to be grey Kreia is ultimately Sith

UnusualStranger:

2nd, the stories of the characters can kind of....jump out of nowhere. Atton, for example, is apparently some super assassin with super mental powers to match. But it doesn't actually show at all, even AFTER you know about all this. You still get his stand-up-again bonus thing, and....thats about it.

Atton's comes up all the time. In the very first scene after you leave Peragus Kreia talks about it, and then again on Telos. And whenever you talk to him or about him they keep talking about a guilt he experiences whenever he looks at a Jedi. And he's got all these bonuses to fighting Jedi and if you ask him he always seems to know a huge amount about how to kill them. And every time you randomly murder someone, he admits that he feels exhilarated by it. They seed that plotline pretty thoroughly through the whole game

The Madman:

The idea for the dialogue is that you choose based on how you think your character would have acted in said situations, not necessarily 'the exile', and thus your choices not only effect how your characters acts in the present but how they acted in the past as well. It's a damned clever idea that I think could have been better done if they'd had good voice acting for the protagonist...

Alright, I gotta shoot this idea in the head really fast now. If you need voice acting to improve your game, then your writing needs work. And this is kind of counter to the "blank slate character" which you dislike. You are practically just writing your own character if you are allowed to just choose however you want him to be, meaning that you ARE working with a clean slate, not a character with his own parts. Anyways, voice acting would not improve this, because voice acting is a perk in its own right. I'm going all old school on you and going "Look we didn't need voice acting back then, so adding it in NOW isn't going to just magically improve it!"....

The Madman:

As for the villains the majority of the game has them acting in shadows. You're not ignoring them, it's just, well, what else can you do? Unlike Kotor 1 there's no clear villain with an army at their sides, in this case you have a series of antagonist striking at various times for their own reasons but always in secret. Assassins sent in small groups, shadowy organizations working in the background. That's also the reason for the protagonist to pursue personal vendetta; your existence is going to draw your enemies to you regardless of what you do, and pursuing those personal plights might help things along so why not? I can see the frustration with the seeming lack of urgency, but it is explained.

As for Revan, you've a point. I do think it could have been better done in Kotor 1 however. As for Mandalore, spoiler I guess, he's Canderous from the first game. He's got some interesting stories to tell regardless of that if you get enough influence with him as well, which is nice, but the first game already went over most of his core character. Heck, his goals and motivations are given more time than Revans are, go figure.

Incidentally I just replayed Kotor 2 last week which is why this is all so fresh in my mind. Convenient timing!

Yes, the lack of urgency is kind of explained, but it really seems to ignore how the Exile for MANY years just vanished, and now suddenly just feels a need to gather up Jedi/kill them for....whatever reason you choose. What, his ability to hide has just vanished now? I'm sure I am forgetting something, but he's been evading bounty hunters and all manner of people for years, and now it gets tossed?

And yes, it is Canderous, but there isn't really much explanation for how he got to this random point. He just decided "We need to get some more mandalorians." and goes and does it? And his reasoning for coming with you is largely "Cause I need to recruit some more people." as if he couldn't manage that himself. Largely, the characters seemed kind of...off to me. As, Mandalore is with you for somewhat flimsy reasons, Handmaiden doesn't really have much to say other than she doesn't have much to say, Visas can tell you a depressing story, and thats the only one you are getting. Atton is...well, he's almost just pure comic relief, with this random SUPER DARK PAST which doesn't come into play at any time other than when you bring it up to him once.

On the flipside, Canderous in Kotor1 holds his honor in high regard as you come to learn, and when someone challenges it he demands to go fight. Carth is all pissed off and whiny a lot of the time because of a dead family and betrayed by friends who helped kill them. Life dealt him a bad hand. Mission (the bubbly blue girl) is all happy go lucky because she's a born and raised crook, meaning that as a kid survival IS her fun time. As you talk to these three characters, you learn that Canderous has seen some things that you can only dream of at this point, Carth has gone through several of his own hells and betrayals, and Mission has been street living and stealing with a horrid family for as long as she has been alive. These are deep stories that you run into, that I just didn't really see at all in Kotor 2.

UnusualStranger:

Alright, I gotta shoot this idea in the head really fast now...

*snip, don't worry, I read everything. Just shortening quotes for post length*

Not quite sure I understand your point...

Do you see where I'm coming from at least?

Kotor 2 is far from a perfect game. Even with the Restored Content Mod it's buggy and there are far too many plot threads left unfinished by the end. The gameplay is also mediocre at absolute best and visuals more of the same from the first game. Can't say I'm too keen on either the soundtrack or even all the voice acting either for that matter as well.

Kotor 2 was over-ambitious, especially for a first game as it was for Obsidian at the time. Nevertheless I really like and appreciate what it was trying to do and admire the developers for having done so.

gmaverick019:

while i understand that it is inaccurate for the swap, i just subbed that out in my mind because of the fact that everything else about it was awesome. and if THAT is your second biggest pet peeve of the game, you really must've loved the game, because that is such a tiny ass detail.

Eh, yes and no? I do like the game, but the model managed to absolutely destroy my immersion in a single instant, which I view as a grave sin in media, to say nothing of my sheer annoyance at seeing a model repeated in a way that they can't internally justify. It's also worth noting that the thing that topped it is less an incident than it is a category that basically boils down to "everything the Restored Content Mod tried to fix"...ie: General choppiness and a prevalent 'incomplete feeling'. Arguably broad strokes, but the very existence of the aforementioned mod can attest to how they can add up. Individually most of those issues barely register for me, with some notable exceptions (for instance: The "Restore Telos" quest chain, a few inconsistencies on Malachor V that are explained by cut content).

For the people arguing it should have improved the combat system from KotoR 1, the game was ordered to be made in 13 months (two of which were thrown away in negotiations) there is absolutely no way they could have added in a new combat system. They did add better force skills though, which helped a little bit.

Asita:

Eh, yes and no? I do like the game, but the model managed to absolutely destroy my immersion in a single instant, which I view as a grave sin in media, to say nothing of my sheer annoyance at seeing a model repeated in a way that they can't internally justify. It's also worth noting that the thing that topped it is less an incident than it is a category that basically boils down to "everything the Restored Content Mod tried to fix"...ie: General choppiness and a prevalent 'incomplete feeling'. Arguably broad strokes, but the very existence of the aforementioned mod can attest to how they can add up. Individually most of those issues barely register for me, with some notable exceptions (for instance: The "Restore Telos" quest chain, a few inconsistencies on Malachor V that are explained by cut content).

So you're saying that the game that was released incomplete had a general 'incomplete feeling'? =D And TSLRCM is the 'restored content mod' so at least it's not fans making up a bunch of things to fix plotholes the devs were too lazy to fill in

BrotherRool:

Asita:

Eh, yes and no? I do like the game, but the model managed to absolutely destroy my immersion in a single instant, which I view as a grave sin in media, to say nothing of my sheer annoyance at seeing a model repeated in a way that they can't internally justify. It's also worth noting that the thing that topped it is less an incident than it is a category that basically boils down to "everything the Restored Content Mod tried to fix"...ie: General choppiness and a prevalent 'incomplete feeling'. Arguably broad strokes, but the very existence of the aforementioned mod can attest to how they can add up. Individually most of those issues barely register for me, with some notable exceptions (for instance: The "Restore Telos" quest chain, a few inconsistencies on Malachor V that are explained by cut content).

So you're saying that the game that was released incomplete had a general 'incomplete feeling'? =D And TSLRCM is the 'restored content mod' so at least it's not fans making up a bunch of things to fix plotholes the devs were too lazy to fill in

I'm well aware. You'll notice I made a point of saying in my prior post that the publishers rushed it out before the devs were well and ready, and that I refered to the Restored Content Mod as...well, just that instead of its abbreviated title, which I'd think would hint that I had some knowledge of its focus and what it drew from. Doesn't mean I can't still point to those things as detracting from the game's overall quality.

One game has Ravel Puzzlewell and the other doesn't.

This is pretty easy, really.

The original one, because... Revan.

'nuff said.

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