Knights of the Old Republic 1 or Knights of the Old Republic 2?
KotoR!
35.1% (87)
35.1% (87)
KotoR 2
64.9% (161)
64.9% (161)
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Poll: KotoR vs KotoR 2 (Mods allowed!)

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I go with Kotor II because of all the reason the OP has already mentioned, but I add two more:

-In the first game, you had a grand total of two factors that gave you more dialog options: Your persuasion skill and your Affect/Dominate Mind power. In Kotor II, almost every single skill and attribute can help you out. High intelligence can help you solve puzzles, high wisdom can help you defuse situations (and it is always fun to argue back to Kreia to the point where SHE has to admit YOU have a point :P), high awareness, and even specific skills like medicine and security can help you with new options and possibilities. I just love how your choices and opportunities actually can change based on what kind of character you are playing as, and the game actually rewards you for playing as a less combat-oriented and more skillful character.

-The equipment-modding. To this day I hold my claim that Kotor 2 had the single best upgrade system in a single player game ever. You can upgrade literally everything (save for a very limited number of low-tech or special gear), the upgrades are significant and useful, and it actually also makes having a skill-focused character useful (or you can keep Bao-Dur around as a tech instead of turning him into a jedi, as he has the best skill-growth and bonuses in the entire game).

The only problem was that, well, Kotor II is not exactly a polished game (not by a long shot), but then neither was the original Kotor. The graphics are unpolished, the style is unpolished, the animations are unpolished, the combat is unpolished... Really, this is one of those games that deserve to have a full remake under a more technically proficient engine, and not because of the "it's old" sentiment, but because I really think the game would have benefited from a better presentation (and a completed development cycle, but that's a given).

Also, if we are at that, how good is the restoration mod? The last time I tried it was about a year ago, and there I got myself locked into an infinite loop by an added scene on Nar Shaddaa (it was my third planet to boot, so that means I lost a good 20 hours of gameplay because of it), so I am quite curious if they managed to make it less buggy in the meantime...

Never played KotOR 2 with mods, so by default I am going with KotOR. Wonderful story, largely independent of the rest of Star Wars, and one of the best executed twists in all of video games. KotOR 2 was still an amazing game though; some of the most interesting characters in the Star Wars universe, darker tones, and the whole world was imbued with a sense of moral ambiguity that the first one just doesn't have.

But there are severe problems with the game itself that would completely hold it back: powers like force wave are completely overpowered and game breaking, several areas are completely uninspired and boring with their designs, the skill system from KotOR is still broken (though there are improvements to it), and by far the worst offender in the game itself, the game mechanics actively discourage not picking either extreme.

Let me elaborate on that last point. While Kreia herself is morally neutral, almost all of the advice she gives is dark side oriented. This is just one example of a discrepancy between the dark/light mechanics of the game and the actual narrative, something that is really inherent to all moral choice systems but is more pronounced by the fact that the game is asking you to put aside morality. Also the game won't allow you access to the extra tomb on Korriban is you are neutral and you get stat bonuses to you and that special crystal for going to either extreme. I believe that the game itself would have been better had they just tossed out the moral choice system.

Happiness Assassin:
Let me elaborate on that last point. While Kreia herself is morally neutral, almost all of the advice she gives is dark side oriented. This is just one example of a discrepancy between the dark/light mechanics of the game and the actual narrative, something that is really inherent to all moral choice systems but is more pronounced by the fact that the game is asking you to put aside morality. Also the game won't allow you access to the extra tomb on Korriban is you are neutral and you get stat bonuses to you and that special crystal for going to either extreme. I believe that the game itself would have been better had they just tossed out the moral choice system.

In this case the problem is the lacking of the y-axis in this morality system for Lawful/Chaotic. What Kreai tries to teach the Exile is to be "Lawful Dark Side" instead of the crazy "Chaotic Dark Side" almost all the other Sith Lords embody. However, since the game's morality system only has an x-axis, Lawful Dark Side and Chaotic Dark Side registers the same.

In fact, since Light Side is almost entirely Lawful Good and nothing else, I would say that ANYTHING the player does that is not Lawful Good counts as Dark Side courtesy of the definition of not being light-side, even if the choice neutral or Chaotic Good. Because of that, doing a bad thing for the greater good is still registers as bad as mauling an entire orphanage to death with their dead caretaker's cadaver just for the evulz.

I much prefer the Fallout (minus 3) style system, where you have different standings in different communities, and how they view you depends on your actions towards them, not on some arbitrary karma system.

P.S.: As for your comment on the skill system being broken, I respectfully disagree. In the first game the only skills your main character had to invest were Persuasion and Security, maybe Repair/Computer Use if you had the extra points. The rest were useless. In the second game, every single skill is useful for something. All of them give you new conversation options, Awareness actually adds almost as much as Persuasion, Security is good for obvious reasons, Repair and Computer Use lets you use these skills to repair droids (huge amounts of bonus XP) and slice into systems to make your life easier (also lots of bonus XP), demolitions lets you collect mines for a varying amounts of bonus XP, and then you can later break them down to components, treat injury is essential at the beginning since you won't have healing powers for a while, but it also helps in quite a few quests. The weakest link is stealth, but again, like all the other skills, it too helps you make awesome mods for your equipment. Honestly, I don't really know what you are complaining about...

BrotherRool:

And the dark side points are a subtle point to one of the games big themes. The idea is, that if you use dishonourable methods to do a good thing, that act will eat away at you. The jedi joined the mandalorian war out of a good heart, but Revan understood that by being involved with a war it would destroy them from the inside and turn them. In the same way, when Kreia argues that being a dick to this person is better for them overall, thats the same trap so agreeing gives dark side points. It's telling that despite claiming to be grey Kreia is ultimately Sith.

No, she's not. She's someone who holds a very Nietzschean worldview, it's just that the Star Wars black and white morality leaves no room for nuance, so any action that isn't directly helping someone is not considered good.
This is all but outright stated when she tells you "In conflict we find ourselves, or we find ourselves lacking" and 'conflict strengthens us, isolation weakens us'(paraphrased).
When she chastises you for helping someone, she does so because you are solving their conflicts for them, taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves. She also chastises you for petty cruelties and wanton murder, because there is nothing to learn for either you or your victim.

The rest of the game explores this concept further by discussing Echani and Mandalorian philosophy, the relationship between the jedi and the republic and the self-destructive nature of the Sith.

I have only played the first one. Still thanks to the miracle of the internet, and steams thirst for my money, it can be rectified.

Other than that, looking at the Black and white vs black and grey morality, who didn't always prefer the grey characters? The Bounty hunters and smugglers and such like. In the books, they always had the coolest stories (Tales from the Cantina, and Tales of the Bounty Hunters for example) Being a jedi/ sith would be ace, but being a self serving anti hero/ anti villain? Japes beyond compare!

So, in closing, I didn't vote, yet. But I will, after having a jaunt through the second one. (probably not- by the time I have played enough to be able to vote, this poll will be well buried in the vaults of the escapist forums. Honestly I just wanted to weigh in on the side of Grey vs Black morality.)

KotoR is my favourtie game and I, therefore, like it more than the second one. Don't get me wrong though, the second one is bloody good and definitely in my top 5 games of all time, it just felt unpolished. Also, the first one holds a lot of nostalgia for me which is probably clouding my judgment.

Well I enjoyed the first game more... mostly because it's actually finished... and the combat isn't broken... it's a good game, no doubt, but not a great one... the second one had the chance to be, and it was cocked up by a rushed development that left it unfinished... and if it was given that extra time, I think I could say that it's be the better game... the more personal plot, that focused on change, growth and facing your past, was so unbelievably compelling... at first anyway, the ending sucked and everyone knows it, and the plot just sort of became less and less focused as time went on... with character arcs never finishing and lots of other plot threads that never went anywhere, regardless of how well written the characters were... but of course the thing that Kotor 2 does so well, is it's pretensions to grey morality, creating a stark contrast between, what your companions thought was the right thing to do, and what the jedi code tells you to do... never landing on a true right or wrong, and essentially making the dark side light side points, well pointless... which is the best thing you can do in that situation...

Honestly though, I think the biggest downfall of Kotor 2 is how over ambitious it is, especially with trying to take the series in a new direction... with the way it handled it's writing, it's characters, it's player choice, morality... and especially it's role playing, which is something that I didn't mention, but even though it's very underdeveloped, it's a very interesting way they handled revealing character back story, you know, actually giving you a very complex one, and it does a great job with playing into the themes of the story...

So, yeah... while Kotor 2 isn't exactly a "good" game... it had way more going for it than the first, which was cocked up by a rushed development... but I think the best thing you can say about it Kotor 2 is that it's greater than the sum of it's parts...<.<

Well get ready for a KOTOR 2 is awesome thread...

OT: I played both when I was little, like ten or eleven and I liked KOTOR 1 better due to the simple story. I didn't know what was going on in the second and when the two surviving jedi masters tried to kill me and then Kreia knocked you out, I just quit playing.

I recently bought and replayed both of them on steam. The second had the restored content mod and now that I am older I understand what is going on. The second wins until the end. That had to be the worst ending to a game I have ever seen. I mean it blows Mass Effect 3's ending out of the water and into space as how many questions it left unanswered.

Hargrimm:

No, she's not. She's someone who holds a very Nietzschean worldview, it's just that the Star Wars black and white morality leaves no room for nuance, so any action that isn't directly helping someone is not considered good.
This is all but outright stated when she tells you "In conflict we find ourselves, or we find ourselves lacking" and 'conflict strengthens us, isolation weakens us'(paraphrased).
When she chastises you for helping someone, she does so because you are solving their conflicts for them, taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves. She also chastises you for petty cruelties and wanton murder, because there is nothing to learn for either you or your victim.

The rest of the game explores this concept further by discussing Echani and Mandalorian philosophy, the relationship between the jedi and the republic and the self-destructive nature of the Sith.

First of all, can I point out this is an incredibly cool discussion to be able to have, very few games present problems in a way that allows for this sort of disagreement.

So I would argue that whilst she does believe that helping people is taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves, that ultimately that line of thought is a trap and a way to alleviate the guilt of not helping people and will eventually lead to a dark side fall.

It's one of the things I like about KotoR2 the most, people love the grey on grey morality, but the game gives perfect space to accept or reject that, if you play a lightside or darkside storyline, the PC ultimately rejects K's lesson and believing it as true is only 1 option out of three. So I can argue that Kreia fell and she fell because ultimately she was wrong. Conflict can strengthen people, but only if you're already in a position to adequately take on that conflict. You don't see many homeless people strengthened by their inner homeless and becoming powerful people ready to take on the world. You don't see trauma victims becoming strong-willed confident people for dealing with their conflict. As often as not conflict weakens people and makes everything in their life more painful and difficult and they would give a lot to have someone help them out

Kotor 1 wins by default as Kotor 2 (even with restored content mods) is hardly even half finished and the ending is worse than ME3.

The only things that are definitely better in the first one (although I do still really like it) are the plot twist and the ending, everything else more or less was better in the second one. Especially starting as a Jedi rather than having to spend 10 or so levels playing as a soldier/rogue etc. I much preferred the characters in the second game, and the level of customisation.

That said, the twist in the first one is still better than any of the major story moments in the second game.

If both games were completely re-made with a high level of polish then I'd be ecstatic.

I'll admit that I've yet to finish KOTOR 2 (just bought it a while back and I'm slowly chipping away at it when I get the chance), but from what I have played of it, I have to say it's far better than KOTOR. Even with all the talk about it being half finished and somewhat rushed and what not, which I have no doubt is probably true, Obsidian still write a far better story and characters than Bioware has ever managed. And since the gameplay is otherwise pretty similar/identical, there's not a whole lot else to judge the two on.

Bioware simply do not write stories or characters that interest me. Their games tend to be filled with far too many cliche's and obvious plot developments/twists that make the whole experience utterly predictable and mundane to me. In fact, the big plot twist for KOTOR, which many people hail as being so amazing, was so blatantly telegraphed almost from the very beginning of the story that I don't think it even qualifies as a plot twist. I'd have had to turn my brain off and skip every bit of dialogue not to have figured it out almost immediately. Absolutely terrible writing frankly.

Trust me, KotOR 2 takes a pretty big dive in the last few hours.

That said, it's still the better game.

Saviordd1:
Also KoTOR 2 had the problem of being broken at release, I don't want to hear excuses, it was broken and that's how I had to play it. Nobody forgives Oblivion for being odd and broken even with a large modding community, lets not pull a double standard and have the basis be "Judge it by its release".

This is the crux of the issue for me as well. If you're trying to judge "which game is better" you have to go by what they were when they were released. By allowing in mods, you're not determinining which game is better because mods add in/change content to the game. Essentially you're asking "Which game was MADE better by the fans?"

As-shipped, I go with KotOR 1, if for no other reason than "It was an actually finished game" while KotOR was missing large chunks of it. Had they actually finished the game, I likedly would be going with KotOR2. I liked the story and the characters and the fact that you could either convert your entire crew into Jedis or Sith.

But yeah, broken game is broken. Saying that KotOR2 becomes a lot better with mods is saying "Yeah this game isn't that great, but wait till you see what the FANS did with it!" If the fan-based mods are what make KotOR2 an enjoyable experience then it, as a game itself, failed. It's using the mods as a crutch to boost its standing.

So yeah, all hail Darth Revan and KotOR 1, the best of the Old Republic! :P

The Crotch:
Trust me, KotOR 2 takes a pretty big dive in the last few hours.

That said, it's still the better game.

It could have Jedi pop out of my PC and try to cut me apart with lightsabers in the last few hours and I'd probably still like it more than KOTOR.

Actually that sounds like a pretty cool way to die. And if I managed to kill my attackers instead I'd have a lightsaber so win/win I guess. But yeah, I honestly have a really low opinion of the original KOTOR. Aside from HK-47 I'm not sure I can name anything that I really liked about it.

RJ 17:
But yeah, broken game is broken. Saying that KotOR2 becomes a lot better with mods is saying "Yeah this game isn't that great, but wait till you see what the FANS did with it!" If the fan-based mods are what make KotOR2 an enjoyable experience then it, as a game itself, failed. It's using the mods as a crutch to boost its standing.

So yeah, all hail Darth Revan and KotOR 1, the best of the Old Republic! :P

I'm not playing it with mods and it runs perfectly fine for me now. I understand that it's missing content since the publisher rushed it, but even from the handful of hours I've played, what's there has been far and away better than KOTOR. I'm not sure it could possibly get bad enough in the last few hours to make it worse than KOTOR as far as I'm concerned. And I am being serious as I really don't like Biowares writing. The original KOTOR spent any time that HK-47 wasn't saying something boring the crap out of me.

My only problem with KOTOR2 was getting prestige classes. As soon as you pass level 20, the game becomes entirely to easy. If you're good stasis everything and chop them up, bad just force lightning storm entire groups.

Bioware is really overrated in the writing department, Drew Kapershan[sp] was a hack. I read the first two chapters of Revan and then donated it to the local jail (those poor criminals need something else to read beside harlequin romance novels).

LetalisK:
KotOR2, even without mods. I know Star Wars is supposed to be built on a stark black vs white moral dichotomy, and KotOR2 pretty much spit in its face, but I like it when my moralities mix a little bit.

There was always a bit of morally grey in Star Wars (See Obi Wan's response to Luke in Jedi regarding "points of view"). Heck, from a particular point of view the story of A New Hope can be summed up as:

A young desert farmer goes in search of a missing farmhand and meets a religious leader who trains him in extremist doctrine and encourages him to join a terrorist organization.

The "point of view" line wasn't about morality. It can tie in to morality, but it never did in the film. New Hope's storyline isn't "grey" because it doesn't examine

A young desert farmer goes in search of a missing farmhand and meets a religious leader who trains him in extremist doctrine and encourages him to join a terrorist organization.

at all. It completely, uncritically says, "these guys good, those guys bad". Which is not an inherently bad thing, but... y'know, don't try to pretend it's something it isn't.

While my previous post was tongue in cheek (the empire blew up a planet, I can't pretend they were a benign government), I would argue that the point of view discussion is all about morality. Telling Luke that Vader had killed Luke's father was a manipulative lever Obi-Wan used to get Luke to follow him to Alderaan. True, his motives were to make sure Luke was still under his watchful eye since Obi Wan had to leave the planet, but the entire relationship was built on a lie.

Best Star Wars RPG ever is TOR.

Best out of those two, however, is KotOR 2 (plus the Restoration mod and a mod that adds a bunch of new robes and tunics).

RJ 17:
This is the crux of the issue for me as well. If you're trying to judge "which game is better" you have to go by what they were when they were released. By allowing in mods, you're not determinining which game is better because mods add in/change content to the game. Essentially you're asking "Which game was MADE better by the fans?"

As-shipped, I go with KotOR 1, if for no other reason than "It was an actually finished game" while KotOR was missing large chunks of it. Had they actually finished the game, I likedly would be going with KotOR2. I liked the story and the characters and the fact that you could either convert your entire crew into Jedis or Sith.

But yeah, broken game is broken. Saying that KotOR2 becomes a lot better with mods is saying "Yeah this game isn't that great, but wait till you see what the FANS did with it!" If the fan-based mods are what make KotOR2 an enjoyable experience then it, as a game itself, failed. It's using the mods as a crutch to boost its standing.

So yeah, all hail Darth Revan and KotOR 1, the best of the Old Republic! :P

I have to admit, I still way preferred KotoR 2 even comparing the shipped editions, it wasn't so broken or unfinished that the story didn't make sense or it was unplayable.

But I would argue that 1) Since the restored content was content that Obsidian made, designed and wrote it was just not complete enough to add into the game, we're still measuring developer skill. Whereas the best mod for KotoR was based entirely off original content and blew the game out of the water in terms of writing

And 2) If we're choosing which game we want to play right at this very moment, or which game someone should buy etc, or which one I would most enjoy if I were to load it up and play it now, mods become entirely relevant. Okay maybe release KotoR 2 didn't have the HK factory, but thats not how I'm going to play it now. Because it doesn't change the storyline from what Obsidian intended, and doesn't add content that wasn't meant to be there in the first place, there is exactly zero reason why someone would choose to play it unmodded.

BrotherRool:

Hargrimm:

No, she's not. She's someone who holds a very Nietzschean worldview, it's just that the Star Wars black and white morality leaves no room for nuance, so any action that isn't directly helping someone is not considered good.
This is all but outright stated when she tells you "In conflict we find ourselves, or we find ourselves lacking" and 'conflict strengthens us, isolation weakens us'(paraphrased).
When she chastises you for helping someone, she does so because you are solving their conflicts for them, taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves. She also chastises you for petty cruelties and wanton murder, because there is nothing to learn for either you or your victim.

The rest of the game explores this concept further by discussing Echani and Mandalorian philosophy, the relationship between the jedi and the republic and the self-destructive nature of the Sith.

First of all, can I point out this is an incredibly cool discussion to be able to have, very few games present problems in a way that allows for this sort of disagreement.

So I would argue that whilst she does believe that helping people is taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves, that ultimately that line of thought is a trap and a way to alleviate the guilt of not helping people and will eventually lead to a dark side fall.

It's one of the things I like about KotoR2 the most, people love the grey on grey morality, but the game gives perfect space to accept or reject that, if you play a lightside or darkside storyline, the PC ultimately rejects K's lesson and believing it as true is only 1 option out of three. So I can argue that Kreia fell and she fell because ultimately she was wrong. Conflict can strengthen people, but only if you're already in a position to adequately take on that conflict. You don't see many homeless people strengthened by their inner homeless and becoming powerful people ready to take on the world. You don't see trauma victims becoming strong-willed confident people for dealing with their conflict. As often as not conflict weakens people and makes everything in their life more painful and difficult and they would give a lot to have someone help them out

Such is the magic of MCA.
image

That sort of pidgeonholing into light side/dark side is a bit lazy in my opinion. I mean, the dark side is never really defined throughout the game or Star Wars in general. Whether something is lightside/darkside is dependent on the author alone. Under Kreias' philosophy, giving money to a hobo is an immoral act(dark side), because it gives only a short term solution to a long term problem and might make him dependent on charity instead of looking for another way out. So not giving him money with the intention of letting him figure out a solution by his own strength is the good act(light side). Saying that Kreia's corruption is inevitable is begging the question.

The central question is really whether or not you accept the premise that the dark side is really a corrupting force, or if it's just people giving a name to actions and motivations they disagree with. We never really see any evidence of the force corrupting anyone. Yeah, their skin gets pale and the dark side has "evil" powers like lightning and choking, but it might just as well be a result of using a from of energy, the force, in a certain way. The Sith identify themselves as dark side, but they are really only a counter religion founded by those who rejected the Jedi teachings.
Kreia and basically the whole game decronstucts the whole light side/dark side absolutism by showing us different philosophies within the same universe, like Kreia's, the Echanis' or Mandalorians'. The only evidence we have of the Jedi or Sith interpretation of this form of energy called "the force" being the correct one is themselves. They claim that it works the way they claim, but just because they have found a method of utilizing this energy doesn't mean that they know all about it.
It's very much a mirror of religions like the judeo christian faiths claiming to know the one truth and believing in things like Satan or demonic posession.
Kreia goes even further and critizises the Jedis/Siths use of the force itself, claiming that it weakens them because they become reliant on it in a way that others, like Atton, don't.
The whole game is basically an introduction into ethics and philosophy, by way of critizising and deconstructing absolutist and dogmatic beliefs.

Calling her Nietschean was no accident on my part by the way. A lot of points like the self-reliance, growth through conflict and personal moral code as well as the admiration of the Exile as the one free from the forces influence are very similar to Nietzsches' "‹bermensch" described in "Also sprach Zarathustra". Her heavy criticism of the dominant religion is also comparable to those of Nietzsches' "Der Antichrist".
It's beatiful really.

(Sorry for my rambling, but I didn't really see a way to directly address your points without implicitly accepting premises that I disagree with.)

KOTOR 2. Specifically, for this, which isn't even declared in the game, but left intentionally ambiguous:

If that doesn't blow your mind...

Hargrimm:
-snip-

Don't worry about the length, it was interesting. I'm not going to respond because we basically just have different beliefs and it would be a tricky and heavily political discussion to make much progress. The number of stories I've heard of people who've changed a deep rooted political position over a discussion of KotoR 2 is pretty small.

So I think what I want to say on the much less serious point of videogames is, people like KotoR 2 for it's grey-grey morality and other people have said that to them, that sort of destroys the point of Star Wars. But I think KotoR 2 less has a grey-grey morality, but challenges your concept of morality. So you can conclude that Kreia was wrong, or you can listen to what she says, she's not presented as all knowing, or even honest and reliable and her existence doesn't necessarily mean KotoR 2 is grey-grey or destroying the idea of light-dark, but what it does do, is make you think really hard about it, pretty much just through the strength of her arguments and she gives you the possibility to see a more complicated morality if you're open to it

I think the reason that KOTOR2 stands up so well is precisely because it challenges your notions of Star Wars's Morality. It makes you step back and realize just how fucked up the setting is. The Jedi, defenders of truth and justice, use what is ostensibly a slave army to fight machines, before those same individuals turn against their leaders? They drag everybody into massive, galaxy shattering wars every time the Sith and Jedi start up another fight, and the only ones who suffer are the common folk.

It goes behind the romanticized front of the films and looks at how the world ticks.

BrotherRool:

Hargrimm:
-snip-

Don't worry about the length, it was interesting. I'm not going to respond because we basically just have different beliefs and it would be a tricky and heavily political discussion to make much progress. The number of stories I've heard of people who've changed a deep rooted political position over a discussion of KotoR 2 is pretty small.

So I think what I want to say on the much less serious point of videogames is, people like KotoR 2 for it's grey-grey morality and other people have said that to them, that sort of destroys the point of Star Wars. But I think KotoR 2 less has a grey-grey morality, but challenges your concept of morality. So you can conclude that Kreia was wrong, or you can listen to what she says, she's not presented as all knowing, or even honest and reliable and her existence doesn't necessarily mean KotoR 2 is grey-grey or destroying the idea of light-dark, but what it does do, is make you think really hard about it, pretty much just through the strength of her arguments and she gives you the possibility to see a more complicated morality if you're open to it

That I definitely agree with.
That's basicallly what I meant by "introduction to ethics and philosophy". It deconstructs religious dogma and absolutism through Kreia and by making her unreliable also makes you question her convictions, so that you might come to your own conclusions.

That was a fun little exchange I must say. I'd definitely enjoy discussing PS:T with you, should the topic come up.

The Madman:
Big old chop to save some space.

But, I do see your points, and where you are coming from. I personally can enjoy both games, and do enjoy the style of armor and fighting in 2 more (as well as the now advanced dialogue options), but it ultimately does not appeal to me like the first one did, and the story at times seems to play against itself, the characters have certain "walls" that they just hit at certain points, and yes actual fighting overall was broken.

Though, to be honest, I think the reason I dislike the game in comparison to the first is twofold. First is Kreia, which has so many problems I would rather not post. Second, is the major players in the story in general all seem to fall down relatively easily. All the jedi masters, the sith lords, everyone seems to screw up or challenge the wrong person and just...lose, very quickly. In Kotor, you fought Malik and it was a hell of a fight. You fought that general fellow on the bridge, and lasers and it was kinda intense. I can't really seem to recall moments like that in Kotor 2.

UnusualStranger:

Though, to be honest, I think the reason I dislike the game in comparison to the first is twofold. First is Kreia, which has so many problems I would rather not post. Second, is the major players in the story in general all seem to fall down relatively easily. All the jedi masters, the sith lords, everyone seems to screw up or challenge the wrong person and just...lose, very quickly. In Kotor, you fought Malik and it was a hell of a fight. You fought that general fellow on the bridge, and lasers and it was kinda intense. I can't really seem to recall moments like that in Kotor 2.

Thats actually probably fair enough, I like the dialogue fight with the scarred guy and I prefer the villains in general in 2 to 1 (but in many ways that wasn't 1's fault, the point of the story was that Malik was pretty bad and blandly motivated, at least with Bastila they almost do something with a character whose purpose is to be nothing (even if the way Bastila gets captured is the most ridiculous BS I've ever seen in a game until Kai Leng. In fact it happens pretty much the same way KL gets what he wants in Thessia) but all the boss fights (apart from the dialogue one, and even then the actual fight wasn#t interesting enough) in KotoR 2 were boring compared and didn't convey character well.

BrotherRool:

UnusualStranger:

Though, to be honest, I think the reason I dislike the game in comparison to the first is twofold. First is Kreia, which has so many problems I would rather not post. Second, is the major players in the story in general all seem to fall down relatively easily. All the jedi masters, the sith lords, everyone seems to screw up or challenge the wrong person and just...lose, very quickly. In Kotor, you fought Malik and it was a hell of a fight. You fought that general fellow on the bridge, and lasers and it was kinda intense. I can't really seem to recall moments like that in Kotor 2.

Thats actually probably fair enough, I like the dialogue fight with the scarred guy and I prefer the villains in general in 2 to 1 (but in many ways that wasn't 1's fault, the point of the story was that Malik was pretty bad and blandly motivated, at least with Bastila they almost do something with a character whose purpose is to be nothing (even if the way Bastila gets captured is the most ridiculous BS I've ever seen in a game until Kai Leng. In fact it happens pretty much the same way KL gets what he wants in Thessia) but all the boss fights (apart from the dialogue one, and even then the actual fight wasn#t interesting enough) in KotoR 2 were boring compared and didn't convey character well.

I felt that Nihlus and Sion were *dislodged* from the whole narrative, like they were operating on a different plane of existence and had no impact whatsoever on the story. The sith assassins could easily have made their move without them and the reason for Nihlus and Sion to be there is to unseat Kreia. After that they felt like a chain on the story.

Vivi22:
I'm not playing it with mods and it runs perfectly fine for me now. I understand that it's missing content since the publisher rushed it, but even from the handful of hours I've played, what's there has been far and away better than KOTOR. I'm not sure it could possibly get bad enough in the last few hours to make it worse than KOTOR as far as I'm concerned. And I am being serious as I really don't like Biowares writing. The original KOTOR spent any time that HK-47 wasn't saying something boring the crap out of me.

BrotherRool:
I have to admit, I still way preferred KotoR 2 even comparing the shipped editions, it wasn't so broken or unfinished that the story didn't make sense or it was unplayable.

But I would argue that 1) Since the restored content was content that Obsidian made, designed and wrote it was just not complete enough to add into the game, we're still measuring developer skill. Whereas the best mod for KotoR was based entirely off original content and blew the game out of the water in terms of writing

And 2) If we're choosing which game we want to play right at this very moment, or which game someone should buy etc, or which one I would most enjoy if I were to load it up and play it now, mods become entirely relevant. Okay maybe release KotoR 2 didn't have the HK factory, but thats not how I'm going to play it now. Because it doesn't change the storyline from what Obsidian intended, and doesn't add content that wasn't meant to be there in the first place, there is exactly zero reason why someone would choose to play it unmodded.

Yeah, Vivi, Rool was catching onto what I meant when I said the game is "broken". That is to say that it's not unplayable, but rather unfinished. Say what you want about Bioware's writing vs Obsidian's, but at least the first game actually had an ending. Beyond the fact that large chunks of the KotOR2 were missing, if you ask me the ending to it was more a slap in the face than the ending to Mass Effect 3. What happens? You kick Kreia's ass and then...kinda...just fly off. It's been years since I played the game, but I do remember there being a lot of stuff that required closure that simply wasn't given.

And Rool, that answer ties in a bit with the response to your comment as well. The story made sense right up to the last mission when everything started to clearly get rushed. That last level was just as rushed as the ending was. Weren't you supposed to be trying to set off a Mass Shadow Bomb or something while you're walking around on that asteroid? What ever happened to that? Absolutely nothing. While the content MAY have been there, just incomplete and not added, that's still content that wasn't in the game as-shipped. I still say the only fair way to judge two games is by how they were shipped, not what the games have been made into after they were shipped. Because that's what the developers put out and declared "This is our final product, hope you like it!" Seems to me the credit for the success doesn't go to the game, but rather what the fans did for the game.

That said, I do agree that there isn't any reason to NOT get the mods, I'm not trying to poo-poo them. I'm just saying that when someone approaches you and asks "Which game is better?" that mods shouldn't be considered because they're still things that were implemented by the fans, not the developers. Otherwise your answer could end up something like "Well this game really isn't that great until you download all the mods for it, then it becomes awesome!" Well what's that say about the base game itself? Quite literally "It isn't that great". Like I said, even if that mod is just pulling stuff out that SHOULD have been in the game and filling in all the holes with the incomplete content, it's still work done by the fans.

In short, Obsidian didn't finish KotOR2, the fans did.

And that's why I still say that while I did like many aspects of KotOR2 more than the first game, by virtue of being a complete game with an actual ending, I still go with KotOR 1. :P

KotOR 2.

If you can make a min-max build solely for the purpose to get most of the extra dialogue options restricted to Stats/Skills, then you know you are dealing with a quality RPG.

GabeZhul:
The equipment-modding. To this day I hold my claim that Kotor 2 had the single best upgrade system in a single player game ever. You can upgrade literally everything (save for a very limited number of low-tech or special gear), the upgrades are significant and useful, and it actually also makes having a skill-focused character useful (or you can keep Bao-Dur around as a tech instead of turning him into a jedi, as he has the best skill-growth and bonuses in the entire game).

This. This really speaks to me. Every time I want to play KotOR I again, I say to myself, "Well, KotOR was great, but the level cap is stuck at 20, so I'll have to get off Taris as soon as possible to maximize my Force powers. And KotOR II has all those upgradable weapons and armor options. And it has Atton... And that awesome militia fight on Dantooine."

Then I catch myself saying, "Son of a bitch, I've got to play through Peragus again... Well, screw it, the Restored Content Mod makes it worth it."

Obsidian took a pretty solid template and managed to churn out a passable game in less than one year. Sure, it took years of fan work to make the game really shine, but I can only imagine what would've happened if Obsidian had gotten that second year to work on it. The Genoharadan, the droid planet, I think it would've been a really phenomenal game.

But back OT, if we're including mods, then I think KotOR II wins. The tweaked gameplay is a vast improvement, and the Restored Content Mod moves the game from "playable" to really "enjoyable." And I think if Obsidian had gotten some more time, it would have been more or less a perfect sequel -- utilizing the prequel's good elements, improving the prequel's poorer elements and turning out a very good game.

Geo88:

GabeZhul:
The equipment-modding. To this day I hold my claim that Kotor 2 had the single best upgrade system in a single player game ever. You can upgrade literally everything (save for a very limited number of low-tech or special gear), the upgrades are significant and useful, and it actually also makes having a skill-focused character useful (or you can keep Bao-Dur around as a tech instead of turning him into a jedi, as he has the best skill-growth and bonuses in the entire game).

This. This really speaks to me. Every time I want to play KotOR I again, I say to myself, "Well, KotOR was great, but the level cap is stuck at 20, so I'll have to get off Taris as soon as possible to maximize my Force powers. And KotOR II has all those upgradable weapons and armor options. And it has Atton... And that awesome militia fight on Dantooine."

Then I catch myself saying, "Son of a bitch, I've got to play through Peragus again... Well, screw it, the Restored Content Mod makes it worth it."

Obsidian took a pretty solid template and managed to churn out a passable game in less than one year. Sure, it took years of fan work to make the game really shine, but I can only imagine what would've happened if Obsidian had gotten that second year to work on it. The Genoharadan, the droid planet, I think it would've been a really phenomenal game.

But back OT, if we're including mods, then I think KotOR II wins. The tweaked gameplay is a vast improvement, and the Restored Content Mod moves the game from "playable" to really "enjoyable." And I think if Obsidian had gotten some more time, it would have been more or less a perfect sequel -- utilizing the prequel's good elements, improving the prequel's poorer elements and turning out a very good game.

You could just not level in Taris at all (as in not clicking level up when you do level) and you can get all your levels as a Jedi when you go to Dantooine. Also there's a mod to skip Peragus which is really tedious.

I went with the orginal KOTOR, though I have only played KOTOR2 once, years ago, whereas I've played the first many times and as recently as last year.

I do think the first one had the stronger story, especially regarding the twist (the twist in KOTOR2 felt a little "well, we can't top that, so let's try this other less impressive thing"). The characters and locations in the first KOTOR felt more diverse and interesting to me than the second. Bastilla, Carth, Jolee, HK-47 and Malak are remembered as strongly in my mind as any character from the (good) movies, but I can't remember many of them from the second game. Though I do remember that some of the locations in KOTOR2 did feel a little more "traditional" Star Wars while the first felt a little more "prequelly", so I liked that about it. The rushed ending of KOTOR2 also left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. Lastly, the original was more eye-opening and impressive because it came first, which is a stupid bias, but one I have nonetheless.

Even still, KOTOR2 was great, and all the praise I'm seeing for it here has me wanting to play it again. Maybe I could still change my mind.

People really seem to have a problem with endings on this site.

And also remembering endings (or lack thereof) :P

KOTOR 1 all the way.

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