Why do we hate the third installment so much?

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MarsAtlas:
snip

Dude I'm going to have to call you on something, Bioshock 3 has yet to be released. I admit it looks, Fucking Awesome, but still, you can't put something in a list when it has actually been released. I'm jumping on the Band Wagon for this game and believe it will be great, but you cannot claim it to be a great sequel when it hasn't been released. I agree with the other things you say and thoroughly agree with the other 3rd instalments that you've put up.

mrhappy1489:

MarsAtlas:
snip

Dude I'm going to have to call you on something, Bioshock 3 has yet to be released. I admit it looks, Fucking Awesome, but still, you can't put something in a list when it has actually been released. I'm jumping on the Band Wagon for this game and believe it will be great, but you cannot claim it to be a great sequel when it hasn't been released. I agree with the other things you say and thoroughly agree with the other 3rd instalments that you've put up.

If Bioshock Infinite is just plain bad, I will eat the tongue on my shoe.

I guess I'm the exception.

Dark Knight Rises was excellent, ME3 was great and I even like The Matrix Revolution the most out of all the Matrix movies. Not even kidding.

Although come to think of it, there are even widely accepted exceptions.

Toy Story 3, Far Cry 3, Fallout 3 and many MANY others.

Because the second one worked out all the kinks from the first one so the second is perfection. The third is pushing the series way to far and changing it too much. Like Jak 3. They had to finish the story (and what a story it was, holy shit) but they really changed up the formula and the game atmosphere felt different.

I think that that is actually only a small percentage of the time. And most of the time when it does happen it's either because the game actually sucked or we're just kind of tired of the series at that point. Although I can only imagine what the reaction will be if games like Half-Life 3 or Battlefront 3 ever get released.

Speaking for only myself (who else?), I'd say the third entry in a trilogy represents the point where enough is enough. I enjoyed the first one, so I wanted more. The second one gave me more, hopefully with a twist here or there. By the third one, I'm ready to move on. Been there. Done that. This, especially, with regard to gaming.

With film, I think the second entry tends to function as the second act, and the second act is where conflict arises. Good guys lose. Bad guys triumph. Things turn complex and interesting. This is where most stories are most compelling. Thing is: the vast, vast majority of dramatic works chicken the fuck out in the third act, giving "fans" what they think they want - a quaint, happy, *boring* ending where everything works out for the good guys. I'm not saying good endings are impossible, but I do believe you only end up with a "happy ending" if you refuse to finish the story. For the most part, I enjoy a more nuanced conclusion.

Lily Venus:

ME3 generally wasnt hated because it was the third installment in a series it was hated because Bioware falsely advertised their product and then treated the community rather poorly when they called them on it.

Although typically they'll usually come up with complete lies in order to justify their whining.

Im sorry but perhaps I misunderstood you. Are you accusing me of creating a lie? or are you talking about the ME 3 movements and fans in general?

Thats not always necessarily true. Sometimes the third installment can be my favorite if its the conclusion of the story. I enjoy the journey I took with the characters and seeing how it all comes together in the end but most people judge the whole of something simply on its ending such as Mass Effect 3. Normally I dont like the first installment of a series since have the story has to be used to introduce the characters and the world, which is something I dont need to see after the first time.

I very much liked Warcraft 3, the third episode of the original Star Wars trilogy, the third part of the Lord of the Rings movies, the third book in the Harry Potter series (one of my favorites in the entire series, actually), the third book in the Black Oak series (Winter Knight, again one of my favorites in the series). The third episode of the Star Wars sequel trilogy wasn't as bad as the second or first in my view. Et cetera.
I think you're off. It's not that there's something wrong with third installments. It's that sequels often mess it up, regardless which installment it is. So obviously there's a high chance that third installments can suck and people dislike them.

Well, a lot of people have already mentioned Warcraft 3, one of the greatest, if not the great, RTS's of all time. And Sonic 3 and Knuckles is also one of the greatest platformers of all time. So it seems to be more of a trend than a law.

And TDKR was still pretty good.

The "hate" comes through these 2 facts:

1. Will it add to the greatness of the 2nd game/movie, or fall short, become stale, and overall crumble. Ex. Spiderman 3, Dark Knight Rises (it was good... and thats it...), Uncharted 3, ect.
OR! or!...
2. The IP is or will be seriously going down hill if the 3rd game/movie doesn't do something groundbreaking/lifesaving. Ex. Devil May Cry 3, Metal Gear Solid 3, Indiana Jones 3, ect.

Its not that we don't like 3rd installments, in fact I'm happy to see such series expand their lives. Its the 50/50 chance they have to survive that drives people crazy.

Half Kingdom Life Hearts 3.... all you can do is pray people...

thesilentman:
I call it coincidence. Some of my favorite games are the third installment (Morrowind and Mario 3) of a series. If you really want a justification, I guess that it has to do with the makers running out of steam and creative energy at that time.

You first thought Morrowind too huh?

Yeah, that and Return of the King came to my mind.

I think it really depends on the creative team, many times with the 3rd installment they feel safe in the numbers catagory, so they figure: "No matter what we put out it will sell so don't worry if it is not up to snuff"

I'd wager that this happens quite regularly.

Cherry picking. You really need to go through a decent sample of games first and pick out which third installments were good and which were bad and compare them instead of just focusing on the bad.

As far as your specific examples of Mass Effect 3 and The Dark Knight Rises go, the former I hate because it's so overwhelmingly lazy, and the latter because it's just a mess of a film. Neither has anything to do with simply the fact that it's a third installment, it's played out or anything even remotely like that.

MarsAtlas:

mrhappy1489:

MarsAtlas:
snip

Dude I'm going to have to call you on something, Bioshock 3 has yet to be released. I admit it looks, Fucking Awesome, but still, you can't put something in a list when it has actually been released. I'm jumping on the Band Wagon for this game and believe it will be great, but you cannot claim it to be a great sequel when it hasn't been released. I agree with the other things you say and thoroughly agree with the other 3rd instalments that you've put up.

If Bioshock Infinite is just plain bad, I will eat the tongue on my shoe.

I'll eat an entire pair of shoes if it is. I do think that it is going to be fucking great though, although the last time I got my hopes up this much they were met, I'm looking at you Skyrim you crazy bastard!

Lily Venus:
Because the people who decide that they liked the previous games more often feel the need to be extremely vocal about how the third installment didn't please them.

ME3 generally wasnt hated because it was the third installment in a series it was hated because Bioware falsely advertised their product and then treated the community rather poorly when they called them on it.

Although typically they'll usually come up with complete lies in order to justify their whining.

Right mate, I have seen you in the other threads as well, and seriously, can you just let it rest?

People can have opinions. People can say that they believe that the game did not deliver. But you really do not have to insult people, nor call them whiners. You could be pleasant and just say "Well, I personally thought that the game was alright because blah blah blah" and not be a dick about it.

You kind of people are more annoying than the so-called whiners. There is really no need for you to be an arse to the people who disagree with you. You were doing it in the other thread (I think it was the "Ending battle was the disappointment" thread.)

So, why don't you just say "Nah mate, the ending was amazing/the game was amazing" or whatever, instead of trying to slot in snide insult after snide insult?

I think there's generally a hate for things with good track records that turn out poorly.

TizzytheTormentor:
Dude, Devil May Cry 3 saved the series from the epic fail that was DMC2

Let's not forget Halo 3, which was good.

And the icing on the cake, Kingdom Hearts---!?

...

...

...

It won't suck, it can't suck...there's no way...right!?

If you want to think of it that way, Kingdom Hearts II is the third installment in the series. And that game was great. (Alternatively, Birth by Sleep is the third game in the "main" series.)

OT: I think that, when a third something isn't very good, it tends to be due to a duology being changed into a trilogy.

The best example is Sly 3: Honor Among Thieves. The first game was good. The second game... holy shit that game was great. But then Honor Among Thieves happens. It's not related to anything from the first two games (barring Bentley being handicapped), the plot isn't very engaging, and overall it just felt like a "we made it a trilogy because trilogies are hot right now" sort of game.

But then Sanzaru made Sly 4 and all was forgiven.

On the flip side, some third installments are the best! One of my absolute favorite games is Spyro: Year of the Dragon, the third and final Insomniac Spyro game. It took Spyro 2, which improved upon the first, and ironed out its flaws. I defy you to name one thing not amazing about Year of the Dragon.
(Don't say the Sasquatch Six's bullshit difficulty. I know... I KNOW.)

For starters, if a third movie is made chances are the ones that proceeded it were pretty good, meaning they often enter the ring with high expectations. In addition they often have to try and outdo the first two and avoid letting the series get repetitive which frequently pushes them into doing crazy things and going over the edge (see Spiderman 3). And third because they're often set up as a final act to a trilogy and being a conclusion story is hard to pull off. All that being said there are exceptions.

Movies:

Of the prequel Star Wars trilogy Revenge of the Sith is usually ranked as the best, though that's not saying a lot.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, based on what many consider to be the best book, took the movies in darker, more mature and emotionally complex direction.

The third Lotr movie is usually considered the best and won the most awards. Though the trilogy is essentially one story so it arguably shouldn't count.

Goldfinger is one of the best Bond films according to many people and introduced a lot of the iconic bond elements we know of today.

Toy Story 3, while not necessarily the best is considered to be at least a very good sequel and worthy successor to the first 2.

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is so well known and revered today that many people don't know it's part of a trilogy.

The Last Crusade might not be better than Raiders, but it's still a great movie in it's own right.

Video Games:

Super Mario Bros 3 is a beloved masterpiece.

Super Metroid, the third Metroid game is often considered the best of the 2D ones.

Warcraft III is the only one anyone talks about.

Fallout 3, I don't know much about it but apparently it's good.

Metal Slug 3 stands well above all the others. (In my opinion at least)

DoPo:
I think they hate it because it actually sucks. Well a lot of times that's the case, actually - strong start with the first product, second one may be better or worse usually not by much but just noticeable and finally the third product would either get the series back on track (if the second one was weak) or break it. It's a common pattern.

I can't actually speak for Spider Man 3 and dark Knight Rises - I never watched any of them. I didn't even hear people complain. But you're wrong if you think people decry Mass Effect 3 - the actual feelings people have expressed are that the game itself is good - at least not way worse or way better than the other two. It's the ending that people take an issue with. I don't need to go into it - it has been explained to death.

He's not wrong. You haven't been listening. People have been shitting all over ME3 since release. The people defending it, who you seem to be referring to, often end up being the ones getting flamed for daring defend the blatant "betrayal" of the fanbase everyone sTILL claims the third installment was.

To me, I think its cause it signals an end that people either dont want or have over hyped to their own personal visions (especially in the case of an interactive medium like videogames and ME3). I'm actually big on things only going to three games and only being three games if they center around one person and tale that persons tale. its the classic story structure of rise, level off greatness, fall. I cant stand when someone saws its going to be a trilogy and then makes it into 4+ games.

It has nothing to do with simply being the third in a series. "Return of the Jedi" IMO was by far the best of the original SW trilogy. PoP:Two Thrones was an excellent game and better than the 2nd, Resident Evil 4 was, IMO the best in the series. It has nothing to do with the number 3, it's quite simply that The Dark Knight Rises was shit and went on far too long and ME3 was CoD in space (complete with "Stay Frosty"s, "See you on the other side"s and "Check your six"s and all that garbage) with poor dialogue, no recognition of anything Shepard has done to that point beyond a numerical value. Spiderman 3 had too many villains and quite frankly would've had a hard time following up Spiderman 2, probably the best comic-book film to date.

When a franchise is milked and flogged for all it's worth, creativity and innovation are reduced with each subsequent outing. Perhaps it's just that by the third rehash there's little left to go around. Particularly when EA or Activision get involved. They take anything remotely sophisticated, interesting or intelligent and reduce it down to a paint-by-numbers action game.

Because usually the third installment ruins the franchise.

This obviously isn't always the case but more often than not the third installment is just utter crap.

Lily Venus:
Because the people who decide that they liked the previous games more often feel the need to be extremely vocal about how the third installment didn't please them.

ME3 generally wasnt hated because it was the third installment in a series it was hated because Bioware falsely advertised their product and then treated the community rather poorly when they called them on it.

Although typically they'll usually come up with complete lies in order to justify their whining.

it goes against everything i stand for to feed people like you but here we go

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9097672

this is a list of promises made by bioware during development, with sources to where they said them.

DoPo:
I think they hate it because it actually sucks. Well a lot of times that's the case, actually - strong start with the first product, second one may be better or worse usually not by much but just noticeable and finally the third product would either get the series back on track (if the second one was weak) or break it. It's a common pattern.

Pretty much this. I've noticed this pattern for a long time now. As for the 4th installment, if the 3rd sucked, the 4th is likely to be very good or sometimes even be considered the best in the series. If the third installment was great the 4th will probably fall into the meh/sucky categories. The 5th installment onwards is when things in terms of quality start to become unpredictable and difficult to track.

I think the third installment of a trilogy often suffers for numerous reasons.
Having to live up to the hype the marketing and the success of the first 2 installments generates.
It is also possible that people are willing to cut the first two installments a little more slack, because they think the sequel might explain the open questions.

BrotherRool:
This is just selection fallacy probably. You're picking up on a pattern purely because there are so many third games out there, that some are bound to bad.

The third Metal Gear game is Metal Gear Solid, one of the most famous and influential games of all time. The third game in the Solid series of Metal Gear is Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater, the least controversial of the whole series and widely beloved by most.

The third Warcraft is one of the best RTS' of all time. The third World of Warcraft expansion (Cataclysm) was the fast selling PC game ever until the newest Diablo.

Final Fantasy III got voted the 8th best game of all time by the Famitsu readership. Final Fantasy III (by which I mean VI) is widely proclaimed by many to be a franchise best.

Grand Theft Auto III (3D) was called a landmark in the gaming industry. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, the 3rd 3D GTA game and the third GTA PS2 game and the third GTA in the Grand Theft Auto III series, is the best selling game of all time
-----------------------------------------------------
It looks like 3 is a lucky number =D Can anyone think of more to add to this by the way? Videogames are numbered so weirdly

Morrowind
Halo 3
Fallout 3
Wing Commander 3
Saints Row 3
Civilization 3

And so on.

Nieroshai:

DoPo:
I think they hate it because it actually sucks. Well a lot of times that's the case, actually - strong start with the first product, second one may be better or worse usually not by much but just noticeable and finally the third product would either get the series back on track (if the second one was weak) or break it. It's a common pattern.

I can't actually speak for Spider Man 3 and dark Knight Rises - I never watched any of them. I didn't even hear people complain. But you're wrong if you think people decry Mass Effect 3 - the actual feelings people have expressed are that the game itself is good - at least not way worse or way better than the other two. It's the ending that people take an issue with. I don't need to go into it - it has been explained to death.

He's not wrong. You haven't been listening. People have been shitting all over ME3 since release. The people defending it, who you seem to be referring to, often end up being the ones getting flamed for daring defend the blatant "betrayal" of the fanbase everyone sTILL claims the third installment was.

People were shitting all over ME3 since before the release, in fact, but pretty much none of it was "this game is bad" it was very specific elements - the on disc DLC and the ending. I've seen very few people say the whole game is bad in its entirety.

I think it's because the third part is (usually) the ending and everyone has a different idea of what a perfect ending is. Obviously the movie/game ect can never please everyone so a majority of people are disappointed and that translates to 'it was crap'. I seem to like many movies people don't, Matrix Revolution and Spiderman 3 for example. There are plenty of liked third entries in series though, like Return of the King, Return of the Jedi and Dark Knight Rises.

Loved Dark Knight Rises, ME3 was my favorite, and I enjoyed Spiderman 3 if not only for the topher grace venom. But i think that it's only recently that the third installment of anything has become mainstream to hate.

maybe its not even that. maybe its just that the people who are angry for something are heard more because they yell more, you know? there could be only 20 people that dislike something, but they yell so loud that it seems like everyone hates it. like with the new DmC game. more people liked it than disliked it, but the angry fans keep on shouting.

Capitano Segnaposto:

ShadowRatchet92:
Title says it all. I never really understood why a lot of people seem to despise the third installment of a trilogy so much. From Spider-Man 3, to the Dark Knight Rises, to Mass Effect 3, audiences really seem to think that no matter what happens, the third installment of something a lot. Maybe I'm just starting to notice this or I haven't thought of a reason why, I just want to know why a lot of people seem to hate the third installment of something, weather it's the final installment or the next installment of a series.

Um, I found DKR to be the best movie out of them.

Mass Effect 3 was an excellent game.

Final Fantasy III (US) was also superb.

I don't see the hate.

The real Final Fantasy 3 is really damn good too.

Also, Super Mario Bros 3, Sonic 3, Metal Gear Solid 3, Resistance 3, Mario & Luigi: Bowsers Inside Story, Metroid Prime 3, Sly 3.

So yeah it's not always the third game that sucks, or is inferior to others in the series.

Capitano Segnaposto:
Um, I found DKR to be the best movie out of them.

Mass Effect 3 was an excellent game.

I don't see the hate.

Ehm, what you thought of the is quite irrelevant if we look at the general reaction. DKR got lots of flak from die hard fans due to... idiotic plotholes and ME3... Did you really miss all the fuzz around it?

Yes, hate is there. A question like this can't be debunked with an answer like your 'but I liked it'. I like DmC and yet there is a ton of DMC fanatics that throw a tantrum and insult people for liking it.

But you also brought up the best point to debung his question: FF 3. (this is why I snipped it out)

There are a lot of third installments that are beloved. The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind, GTA 3, Far Cry 3, Toy Story 3 and so forth.

It is not like people hate third installments. People hate for other reasons than just a number.

Casual Shinji:
Oh you think the third sequel is bad, try the fourth.

wouldn't the third sequel be the fourth movie anyways?

No one shall raise Metroid Prime Corruption in this void of worthlessness. There are, indeed, positive examples. None where #3 kills #1 by its quality, but still, positive.

Speaking from my own observations of trilogies/series I like it seems to go:

- First one they have an original and new idea, it is well liked, if a little unpolished.

- Second time around they learn from the mistakes of the first one, and expand and improve upon it.

- Third one they decide that as the fans of the second one will no doubt want the third due to being fans, they can concentrate instead on trying to bring in people who didn't experience or like the second one. So they try and appeal to people who are not already fans rather than attempting to please those who already are.

This tends to mean that the fans of the series before buy it due to them being fans, and at this point are wondering what the hell is going on, while those who didn't like or didn't experience the second one are left wondering what the issue is as this new one appeals to them.

I have no idea what you are on about. In my experience, the third ones seem to be among the best.
Examples:
- Super Mario Bros 3
- Metal Gear Solid 3
- Persona 3
- Valkyria Chronicles 3
- FarCry 3
- Fallout 3 (which I still find more enjoyable than New Vegas)
- Max Payne 3

But then again, different strokes for different folks, eh?

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