All JRPG needs to be liked again is to be gritty.

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gyrobot:
Well lets think for a moment why people hates JRPGs? Because it doesn't fit the current standards expected by the current attitude towards the fantasy genre.

But what do people expect from the fantasy genre now? To emulate ASOIAF, the political intrigue, the brutal cynicism and ultimately be as mature as possible. The funny thing is that JRPGs at one point was like that with Ogre Battle, Valkyrie Profile and Xenogears which served as the greats of JRPG. When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

So for JRPGs to be liked again, I recommend tossing in a bit of ASOIAF, some mature content and call us in the morning. We will dismiss the Turn Based stuff as part the genetic makeup of the genre. But the childishness is a disease that needs to be cured

Ehh.. that's a pretty cynical interpretation and overly simplistic. There was plenty of dark and gritty JRPG titles even back in the PS2 days that never really took off.

I don't think it's the tone of JRPGs of the current fantasy genre that has caused it to shrink. Final Fantasy 13, as shitty as the game is, isn't childish. If anything it suffers from trying to be too dramatic with characters who are agonizingly uninteresting and a plot written by a 13yr old who had no editor. Dragon Quest and Pokemon are about as light and fantastical as you can get and they are huge sellers every installment.

It just needs to take itself seriously.

And that will surely happen, when pigs can fly.

. . . wait. .

WHAT?!

gyrobot:

When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

image

Dark and gritty/light and colorfull =/= serious/unserious

And a song of ice and fire is surely not the inspiration for the great wrpg classics.
Nor is Tolkien. Perhaps for some, but there is no one source for the inspiration that made Fallout, Fallout 2, Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, etc.

Ishal:

I feel like people shun grittiness and dark storytelling a bit too much. Perhaps its just me, but I never was into games and comics when the whole gritty 90's era was happening. Being dark and gritty is fine, it just can't be the main driving force and shouldn't saturate the entire plot of a story. Not every character needs to have a gritty emo backstory etc.

That's what I mean. I'm perfectly fine with dark and gritty. What I am not fine with is the game going "Have I reminded you how dark and gritty I am in the last 20 minutes? No? Here, have another NPC bragging about rape and murder." It gets exasperating.

Most westerners don't like JRPG's because the recent ones seem to be drowning in Japanese anime culture where every single character is a metrosexual jonas brother. Take those out, stop putting in characters that are just there to make me notice how "cool" they are, and cut the overly convoluted stories and we're getting somewhere. Oh yeah, you had a point with the menus and combat system, it takes way too long to do anything.

Well, it's the same with WRPGs, and the sea of "grizzled soldier-cut brown haired white thirty-something" protagonists. I mean, generic characters all over the place everywhere, but some games do it right, on both sides on the globe.

No, Op. I think you should drop this subject and leave it be. The main reason I learned Japanese was so I could flee the "dark and gritty" franchises the west started to churn out like crazy.

I'll take a gorgeous color palette and well written stories over muscle headed spess mahreens and dubstep soundtracks any day. Admittedly there are bad JRPGs and good RPGs but isn't that the same for anything?

Considering near everyone disagreed with you so for I really have no reason too but I am anyway, you're wrong. I still love JRPGs because I love that they use colors other then brown and grey.

gyrobot:
Well lets think for a moment why people hates JRPGs? Because it doesn't fit the current standards expected by the current attitude towards the fantasy genre.

But what do people expect from the fantasy genre now? To emulate ASOIAF, the political intrigue, the brutal cynicism and ultimately be as mature as possible. The funny thing is that JRPGs at one point was like that with Ogre Battle, Valkyrie Profile and Xenogears which served as the greats of JRPG. When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

So for JRPGs to be liked again, I recommend tossing in a bit of ASOIAF, some mature content and call us in the morning. We will dismiss the Turn Based stuff as part the genetic makeup of the genre. But the childishness is a disease that needs to be cured

GOD NO!!! Dark and Gritty does NOT equal MATURE. I have definitely been disappointed by JRPG's lately, (lookin at you, golden sun), and it does seem that a lot of the reason is that the games are aimed at children, but making them gritty will just ruin them the other way. My personal favorites are The Wild Arms series, The Chrono series, and The Lunar series. Chrono Trigger was bright and fun, with dark and gritty serving as what will happen if your party fails. I don't think I would have enjoyed it nearly as much if it didn't evoke such feelings of wonder.

I need to say this...Political Intrigue is mature, to you? Seems like childish bickering to me. Brutal cynicism is mature to you? Seems like childish pessimism to me... I could go on. I think of Dark and Gritty as a thing of children, like when I was twelve and thought ultra-violent games like Manhunt were the shit. Real men don't say "fuck" every two seconds. Ok, I'm gonna stop now, before I start foaming at the mouth.

Or you know, games could tap the full gamut of emotion.

Even Ogre Battle 64 had its funny moments.

There is no tragedy without happiness.

I don't get it. JRPGs arn't liked?
Well thats news to me. Better delete Final fantasy 1 and 2 off of my Ipod in rage.

Grrrr, I hate them so much!

... Nope sorry this isn't working. As much fun as it would be to sway an entire game genre based on your single opinion I don't think it is going to work. Sure the more recent JRPGs haven't sold or been received as well as they have in the past but there is no reason to say they aren't liked. I still play through the 4 disk behemoth of a game that is Lost Odyssey and love it every single time. It's not gritty in the slightest, it gets dark from time to time but never feels gritty. JRPGs are fine just as gritty as they are, they are needed in this market where pretty much any game targeted at the 15+ market has to have more grit than a gravel pit. People need variety and that is where the JRPG shines. Toss out that cinematic 2 hour campaign of a grey and brown war shooter with barely any plot and go run around in a brightly colored 60+ hour story with your massive sword and outragious clothing.

TL;DR

No, I will coat Japan in cling wrap to keep the grit out if I have too.

gyrobot:
Well lets think for a moment why people hates JRPGs? Because it doesn't fit the current standards expected by the current attitude towards the fantasy genre.

But what do people expect from the fantasy genre now? To emulate ASOIAF, the political intrigue, the brutal cynicism and ultimately be as mature as possible. The funny thing is that JRPGs at one point was like that with Ogre Battle, Valkyrie Profile and Xenogears which served as the greats of JRPG. When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

So for JRPGs to be liked again, I recommend tossing in a bit of ASOIAF, some mature content and call us in the morning. We will dismiss the Turn Based stuff as part the genetic makeup of the genre. But the childishness is a disease that needs to be cured

Ni No Kuni, one of the best games of this admittedly early year, and a JRPG, would like to have a word with you. This game is the anti-grit. It's damn simplistic and childish. But it carries itself with a sense of wonder and myth, color and joy, that it's infectious.

JRPG's don't need grit, they need soul.

And once again I will say Path of Exile, because it is dark, mature, griddy and it have a strange familiar atmosphere like in Dark Souls.

Also I suggest to keep a watch for the game Grim Dawn.

I think we have a problem when a Song of Ice and Fire is being described as "mature". If anything, I think WRPGs need to tone down the gritty hardcore bullshit just a bit, because I simply find it embarrassing and try-hard.

This comment is sure to get lost in the influx of people discussing, however, here's my issue with what JRPG's are today...

1) "once you get 30 hours into the game, it REALLY opens up and becomes fun!"

Ah, the defense I kept hearing for FFXIII. I don't care if it's a 100+ hour game, if this is the price. If the amount of time required to like a game is ANYTHING approaching/over 10 minutes, there's a serious flaw. There are plenty of games out there that hook you within the first minute, even more that do it and complete the game in less than "30 hours." Persona 3 had me in the first minute, and I played it 3 times in a row!

2) characters, not caricatures

It's okay to use tropes, tried-and-true plot beats, and even character shorthand (the broken hero, the spunky sidekick, the strong damsel). What is NOT okay is to make these characters have no soul. We should care about these people, they should grow and HAVE AN ARC through a 30+ hour campaign. Why are they doing what they are doing?

EG: I HATED Kratos as a character after the first GOW, b/c what little arc he had was done. In 2 and 3, he was a soulless rage monster. I'd have preferred if he'd gone pure evil, and been portrayed that way. At least it would have made thematic sense, whereas a hero destroying the world for a revenge he'd ALREADY achieved makes NO sense at all.

3) combat: keep it simple stupid!

Note: I do not say "dumb it down." Byzantine combat systems that take the whole game to understand are a waste of my time. Conversely, let's take a game like Fire Emblem, a few battles to understand, but to MASTER it takes time. This is okay. Asinine or over-simplified systems please no one.

4) actually make the damn things, and stop dialing it in when you do!

Let's face it, we haven't had a steady stock of RPG's since the PS2 days. Companies are unwilling to spend the time required to craft a good product, and when they do, they take shortcuts.

Shortcuts are no good for RPG's. They come off as cheap, weak, and companies lose more money from poor sales than if they'd invested the proper resources. To be fair, it's bad for ANY genre, but RPG's fare worse than most "on the cheap."

How many RPG's came out this gen, of those, how many were good? Compare that to last gen, and compare the awareness around them. Paltry by comparison!

5) finally, stop trying to appeal to EVERYONE

Either make a hardcore classic RPG, or make a streamlined easy-to-play RPG. Don't make a hybrid "twitch RPG" like what FFXIII got lambasted for.

Capcom learned this the hard way with Resident Evil 6. The hardcore fanbase is your bread and butter. Trying to "casualize" it will scare off loyal fans, and fail to connect with the casual crowds, who are likely to return to the shooters and slashers before long.

I love me some Halo and Assassin's Creed. However, I hate COD and Battlefield. Strong-arm tactics are not going to work on me, I am NOT going to get into these games. The measures required to do so would alienate the shooter fanbase, and would be a serious error.

******************
TLDR: Take notes, RPG developers. You can learn from your competitors, but you should be wary of emulating other genres. It's sad when the only companies I can think of for good RPG's are ATLUS and Mistwalker, and neither have had a decent JRPG release in years.

XSeed bears special mention (Shadow Hearts, Last Story, & Xenoblade, I think?). Amazing potential, great games, but they aren't prolific, and their marketing sucks.

My only issue with JRPGs is that they are, usually, overly long. Even my favourite titles, like Final Fantasy 9, have this issue.

The dull moments in Jrpgs are EXCEEDINGLY dull. And they can drag on for hours at a time. One could argue that this contrasts to the peak moments in the story and gives them a greater gravitas. But then I would still say it just feels like shitty pacing for the sake of padding out the narrative.

Longevity is a great aspect in games. But rpgs are notorious for artificially padding things out segments just to reach the magical 30-60 hour play times the genre is famous (infamous) for. And Jrpgs seem to be the grandmasters at doing this.

I think another detriment to Jrpgs is that they are still pushing archaic gameplay mechanics and there has been little to no innovation within the genre as a whole. As they say, if it isn't broken don't fix it, but I know of one series that does this and gets tremendous amounts of flak for it. CoD. Think about that. The equivalent to the CoD series (or spunkgargleweewee) in Japan, is a Jrpg. Heck, there are plenty of Japanese Developers who are decrying how stagnant their industry has become.

Anyway. No, Grittiness is not what is needed. More efficient design ethics (and perhaps some better writing/less cliche heavy narratives) is what is needed to rejuvenate the genre. "Rejuvenate" being the optimal wording, since interest hasn't really diminished, but criticism has steadily increased.

You are making the wrong interpretation of a valid observation. There are less JRPS out nowadays, so you assume they are less popular because of it. Sorry, but no. JRPGS are just as popular nowadays as they were in the last 20 years ago.

JRGS in the Playstation were roughly 10 percent of the games made for the system. This has been the case every since. Although there were almost 500 JRPGs in the PS2, they were still 10 percent of total games made. Let's not forget that ps2 had over 5,000 games released in its lifespan.

The key difference is there are less games for every system out there. The last time I checked, the ps3 had 900 new games released on it. How many of them are JRPGs? About 100.

Your assertion that they are less popular because they are not reflection what gamers wants is simply not true. JRPGs have always been a niche market with limited mass appeal.

gyrobot:
Well lets think for a moment why people hates JRPGs? Because it doesn't fit the current standards expected by the current attitude towards the fantasy genre.

But what do people expect from the fantasy genre now? To emulate ASOIAF, the political intrigue, the brutal cynicism and ultimately be as mature as possible. The funny thing is that JRPGs at one point was like that with Ogre Battle, Valkyrie Profile and Xenogears which served as the greats of JRPG. When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

So for JRPGs to be liked again, I recommend tossing in a bit of ASOIAF, some mature content and call us in the morning. We will dismiss the Turn Based stuff as part the genetic makeup of the genre. But the childishness is a disease that needs to be cured

I disagree, to be honest "people" don't hate JRPGs, mainstream casual gamers do. The JRPG market, like the RPG market in general, hasn't changed much in terms of size or profitability, but the market for other games has eclipsed it. Where RPG fans and "serious" gamers represented the majority at one time, we now represent a minority, profitable, but relatively small compared to what can be achieved by grinding out shooters and various kinds of immediate
gratification games.

To be honest if anything JRPGs tend to get more flak for being TOO gritty, I mean one of the big stereotypes is all the emo, angst ridden teenage protaganists, combined with all the intentionally "edgy" buckle and strap costumes that fill out some of the wardrobes... and involving plots where pretty much everything sucks and your trying to decide which eventual resolution will suck the least for you as you engage on a quest to kill the literal biblical god or whatever. That isn't all there is, but yes, it's out there. Some games like "Lost Odyssey" got attention for being almost wrist cuttingly depressing a lot of the time... things looking up, well here is a past memory that will suck that out of you!
While I can appreciate this, and enjoy it, I confess that I play games to escape depression, so I do enjoy an upbeat change of pace, and some JRPGs do indeed deliver that.

Generally speaking the biggest marketing problem with JRPGs has to do with the length, and gradual progression. To your typical core, casual, gamer, people want to sit down and start doing awesome stuff. You put in your average shooter and you'll be blowing away terrorists left and right, and in most brawlers like "God Of War" you don't exactly start out as a humble peasant, your pretty much ripping nightmarish monsters to pieces right off the bat. To a JRPG gamer, starting out weak, and then gradually seeing that pathetic little kid develop into a god slaying badass over a hundred or more hours of gameplay is the point. Ditto for the numbers and stats, and the idea that the game doesn't directly involve YOUR performance, but tends to largely be an intellectual exercise, where what a character can do is far more important than your abillity to squeeze off a headshot on a moving target, or perform air combos.

When you look at something like "Wrath Of The White Witch" you'll notice the complaints some people make, basically that 17 hours in they are STILL adding more depth to the game (new systems) and your only just starting to see your hero become powerful.... to a JRPG players that's a good thing, and exactly what a lot of people want.

The thing is though that there is more money to be made by localizing a stylish brawler or action game/hybrid than a JRPG, not to mention that JRPGs usually take a lot more work to produce right given the intended pacing and depth, and all that dialogue and depth amounts to more text and/or voicework that has to be translated. Heck, it can even be argued that your core action gamer might not even give a crap if everyone speaks Japanese as long as they get to start spitting out awesome non-stop from the beginning. You can make *A* profit off of JRPGs, but not the greatest profit for the amout of work, and as companie sthink increasingly internationally and re-orient more and more towards casual gamers every year, your seeing less and less focus on the genere. The demand hasn't changed, the fans haven't gone away, but the potential flow of money HAS changed to the point where to a corperate mentality there are better ways to gouge cash
out of gamers.

Some will say this is wrong, patronizing, and insulting towards the casual, core, gamer, but there is no really nice way to point this out... and yes there ARE people who enjoy both JRPGs and shooters and such, but generally that tends to be an RPG fan, who branches out to other things, rather than someone who is an action gamer that also plays RPGs. You can pretty much see this in terms of what people claim when they are talking about turn based combat, stats, subsystems, and the pacing involved in needing to grind/hunt monsters/accumulate wealth over a period of time. If your problem is that you just want go out and beat on things, and see the plot advance pretty quickly, then by definition your not really a JRPG fan, or likely even an RPG fan at all, because that's generally the anti-thesis of the genere even if a few things have managed to pull that off (or claim to have to, a big part of this is things claiming to be RPGs that actually aren't... but that's an entirely differant discussion).

Really? I mean really? Someone is making this kind of thread when Ni No Kuni has been out for less than a month? I haven't played the game, I can't comment on it for shit, but a hell of a lot of people seem to be enjoying the game, in which a child journeys to another world with his talking puppet friend to try to rescue his mom. Find your gritty maturity there.

And the term "mature content" is a phrase only to be used very carefully, especially in videogames. Look at what "mature content" represents in most games: mostly blood and gore, profanity and often shameless cheesecake, while their stories remain about as deep as a roadside ditch. A game can be dark and mature without featuring any so-called mature content, like Chrono Trigger or FF Tactics Advance.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "childishness". I haven't played many JRPGs in my time, so I can't say much. From what I've seen people complain about JRPGs in recent years isn't that they feel childish. It's that they feel tired and old, always relying on the same gameplay mechanics, character tropes and cliched "band of adventurers saving the world" plots. "All JRPG needs to be liked again is to be gritty"... as if being gritty and "mature" was some magic spell which instantly made anything better.

gyrobot:
Well lets think for a moment why people hates JRPGs? Because it doesn't fit the current standards expected by the current attitude towards the fantasy genre.

But what do people expect from the fantasy genre now? To emulate ASOIAF, the political intrigue, the brutal cynicism and ultimately be as mature as possible. The funny thing is that JRPGs at one point was like that with Ogre Battle, Valkyrie Profile and Xenogears which served as the greats of JRPG. When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

So for JRPGs to be liked again, I recommend tossing in a bit of ASOIAF, some mature content and call us in the morning. We will dismiss the Turn Based stuff as part the genetic makeup of the genre. But the childishness is a disease that needs to be cured

I think you are wrong. The big "failure" JRPG's this generation have not been lighthearted and childish (Final Fantasy XIII, for example, started with the forced relocation/slaughter of an entire city and just got more depressing from there) and plenty of lighthearted JRPG's are selling fine (the Mario and Luigi games, Blue Dragon and Ni No Kuni, for example, all met their sales goals.) The failures and successes of the JRPG genre this generation cannot be traced to the tone of the story.

In addition, while the games you named are certainly among the greats they do not fully occupy the list. Super Mario RPG is also near the top of most lists as well as the Paper Mario games. These games prove that lighthearted comedy JRPG's are just as viable as their more serious counter parts.

I do think that it is very difficult for a JRPG the sustain a AAA release, but that has more to do with market, budget and game mechanics than story tone.

jigaboon:

I need to say this...Political Intrigue is mature, to you? Seems like childish bickering to me. Brutal cynicism is mature to you? Seems like childish pessimism to me... I could go on. I think of Dark and Gritty as a thing of children, like when I was twelve and thought ultra-violent games like Manhunt were the shit. Real men don't say "fuck" every two seconds. Ok, I'm gonna stop now, before I start foaming at the mouth.

Political intrigue is a good way to give the player a sense of what Realpolitik means, that if you stand behind some lord who is a honest and nice man both of you will end up quickly with daggers behind your back or labelled as traitors in the land and the only way to survive is to be as mean and cold as the other bastards vying for the throne/supremacy.

For JRPGs to survive is simple, their aesthetics will work but they must create stuff that is more fitting of western trends and have darker themes and be more adult like HBO shows.

Dark Souls is a start, but they can do better

......

How old are you, OP?

Look, the Japanese game industry and the genres that it's mainly compromised of have a lot of problems. Not being "gritty" enough is not one of them.

Can a mod lock this thread, or something? It's such an inane topic that just about any discussion resulting from it is either going to be devoid of any serious content, or it'll be incredibly inflammatory.

gyrobot:

jigaboon:

I need to say this...Political Intrigue is mature, to you? Seems like childish bickering to me. Brutal cynicism is mature to you? Seems like childish pessimism to me... I could go on. I think of Dark and Gritty as a thing of children, like when I was twelve and thought ultra-violent games like Manhunt were the shit. Real men don't say "fuck" every two seconds. Ok, I'm gonna stop now, before I start foaming at the mouth.

Political intrigue is a good way to give the player a sense of what Realpolitik means, that if you stand behind some lord who is a honest and nice man both of you will end up quickly with daggers behind your back or labelled as traitors in the land and the only way to survive is to be as mean and cold as the other bastards vying for the throne/supremacy.

For JRPGs to survive is simple, their aesthetics will work but they must create stuff that is more fitting of western trends and have darker themes and be more adult like HBO shows.

Dark Souls is a start, but they can do better

So you know, Dark Souls is not a JRPG. JRPG is a specific genre, it is not a catch all term for RPG's from Japan. Dark Souls is an Action RPG make in Japan, not a JRPG. In fact, a JRPG does not have to be made by a Japanese developer or be made in Japan.

gyrobot:

jigaboon:

I need to say this...Political Intrigue is mature, to you? Seems like childish bickering to me. Brutal cynicism is mature to you? Seems like childish pessimism to me... I could go on. I think of Dark and Gritty as a thing of children, like when I was twelve and thought ultra-violent games like Manhunt were the shit. Real men don't say "fuck" every two seconds. Ok, I'm gonna stop now, before I start foaming at the mouth.

Political intrigue is a good way to give the player a sense of what Realpolitik means, that if you stand behind some lord who is a honest and nice man both of you will end up quickly with daggers behind your back or labelled as traitors in the land and the only way to survive is to be as mean and cold as the other bastards vying for the throne/supremacy.

For JRPGs to survive is simple, their aesthetics will work but they must create stuff that is more fitting of western trends and have darker themes and be more adult like HBO shows.

Dark Souls is a start, but they can do better

Sorry...just say that again. Out loud. To yourself. For JAPANESE rpgs to survive, they must create stuff that is fitting of WESTERN trends.

ITS A A DIFFERENT CULTURE AND GENRE! If you want a western rpg, go play a western RPG, I prefer jrpgs, but you dont see me demanding western RPGs change to suit my tastes, because I already /have/ games that serve those tastes.

If you don't like JRPGs fine, they're not for everyone, as is the same with every genre, but stop trying to homogenize everything into one pseudo European/American lump. Not only that, Dark Souls isn't a JRPG, it's not just a term for anything that comes out of Japan, it's a specific genre that has certain elements to it. I mean seriously, look at it. It's about as European as you can possibly get without there being an English coat of arms stuck to the main characters shield.

Secondly on the political intrigue. Okay so that stuff happens in that story. Other things happen in a different story, and different things to that happen in yet another story.

So new rule. You're not allowed to do what you want with your story any more, it has to have political intrigue for it to be deemed "matuure". If every story has the same trappings, nothing is unique and everything is boring. If it's in every story it's not intriguing, it's just dull and repetitive.

No.

That's my answer. Unfortunately, just that would get me in trouble.

That's precisely why I like JRPGs. Not everything needs to be gritty realistic.

FFP2:
Err... no.

Tons of people still love JRPGs.

And one of the main reasons I love JRPGs is because they are usually the opposite of dark and gritty.

This guy understands. Although I do enjoy stories that have a subtle darkness to them. But this is typically the reason I love JRPGs.

No thank you. I mean, I'm not opposed to the idea of a gritty JRPG, but I don't want the entire genre to go that way. Persona 4 is one of the best games I've ever played, and it's lighthearted tone is a big part of that. It told a great story without taking itself too seriously. When it did get dark, it had so much more impact. Most gritty games are basically like "Everything is shitty. Now something's a bit shittier. how sad"

gyrobot:
Political intrigue is a good way to give the player a sense of what Realpolitik means, that if you stand behind some lord who is a honest and nice man both of you will end up quickly with daggers behind your back or labelled as traitors in the land and the only way to survive is to be as mean and cold as the other bastards vying for the throne/supremacy.

Yes.. WRPG's totally teaches you how realpolitik works.
That statement just make me feel one thing about your entire reasoning here:
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

I'm all for innovation, and if the JPRG genre wants to dabble into grittiness, that's fine by me, but saying that it should do so doesn't really sit right with me. Why don't we let people do what they want and stop worrying if it has the approval of others?

I don't really think so. I played Ni No Kuni, which is about as far away from gritty as you can get, and shit gets real in that game. Gritty, dirty stuff should be left to WRPGs I'd like JRPGs to keep their high minded philosophizing and political intrigue.

But drop the stupid cheesy friendship is magic bullshit. Leave that to the ponies.

The Wykydtron:

Padwolf:
I play JRPG's because they are not gritty and are far from it. The only problem I have with JRPG's is the characters. Keep in mind that all this is really my opinion. Take Chie from Persona 4. At the moment I cannot stand her, she is one of the most annoying characters I have ever come across. I hope she gets better, I'm only a few hours in, just started playing yesterday. Another set of annoying characters would be the two kids in Lost Odyssey. Yes they come from a tragic moment and all that jazz but they were still highly annoying. The same with Final Fantasy games; Vaan in Final Fantasy 12, many of the characters in FF13. And a lot of the time I do not enjoy the whole "strong and silent and broody type" hero's. JRPG's don't need to be grittier, the reason I play them is because they are not gritty. I didn't even know that they weren't liked, I thought they were loved just as much as any other type of game.

Edit: Hold the phone. Go and play Lost Odyssey, OP. Go and play that and come back to me and tell me it was childish. Oh and Bastion. Go and give that a whirl too. And a load of others I can list that don't have much political intrigue and yet are still part of my list of favourite games

O MAI GAWD!

Padding! When did you start playing my #1 favourite game of all time?! PS2 or Vita re-release? Have you gotten to the first proper dungeon yet? (because the first 1 and a half/2 hours is literally scrolling text and dialogue choices peppered with save points, it's fucking hype) and goddammit everyone is supposed to love Chie! She's adorable :3

Anyway people typically complain more about Yosuke. He's kind of a dick sometimes.

I didn't even have to nag you into it. I now just need Rookie to stop creating shitty puns and actually play the damn thing.

"Lol Shitsona 4!"

Best jokes EU

What he said. Hang in there. The first part of the game is by far the worst, but once they take off the training wheels, let you tackle the first dungeon, and give you full control, it's a blast, in my humble opinion.

Yeah, I don't really think that's it. For me, JRPGs need to:

-Divorce themselves from anime (which I find unbelievably annoying and idiotic, with very few exceptions)
-Allow dialogue options that actually matter
-Get rid of turn based combat or make it real time with the ability to pause. I am sorry, but turn based JRPG combat isn't tactical; it's just slow and monotonous.
-This ties in with the anime point: don't have me play as some emo teen with his annoying teenybopper friends and the weird older guy that doesn't think he's weird for running around with half-naked 12 year olds.

Pretty much, it all boils down to: stop pandering to your Japanese fanbase and all the cliches/mechanics they expect.

WanderingFool:
Want to make JRPGs better? Take out the Angsty teenage heroes, or atleast if you have to have them, make them a joke character of some sort (like having the cast lampshade make fun of their angsty-ness.)

That's a great idea. I'd love to see that in action. Since the angsty teenage heroes are so commonly reviled nowadays, I'm sure it would get a standing ovation.

sageoftruth:

What he said. Hang in there. The first part of the game is by far the worst, but once they take off the training wheels, let you tackle the first dungeon, and give you full control, it's a blast, in my humble opinion.

Ah my bad, I wasn't actually being sarcastic with my description of the first 2 hours. I do find them endlessly enjoyable, although I can see how other people could get bored by it. Good storytelling just never gets old for me :3

As a general rule, if I call something hype i'm being serious XD

Hype is srs bsns

"Gritty"? As in "Throw sand on everything" gritty or "Everyone is a Jerk" Gritty.

Wait... Actually, It doesn't matter. I hate both! There, I said it!

All I want, is a game where I save the world with the power of Friendship, rainbows shoot out, everything is made of crystals, and people defy physics by their resolve to save the world.

That doesn't mean it can't be Dark, but NEVER confuse Dark with Gritty. Just because It's flipping Midnight doesn't mean I don't want to see the Moonlight shining off the buildings... in fact, I expect it!

Basically, I want Final Fantasy VS 13 already!

(If you have no idea whether I'm talking Figuratively, Metaphorically, or Literally with all these points... I mean all three.)

Christopher Fisher:
Yeah, I don't really think that's it. For me, JRPGs need to:

-Divorce themselves from anime (which I find unbelievably annoying and idiotic, with very few exceptions)
-Allow dialogue options that actually matter
-Get rid of turn based combat or make it real time with the ability to pause. I am sorry, but turn based JRPG combat isn't tactical; it's just slow and monotonous.
-This ties in with the anime point: don't have me play as some emo teen with his annoying teenybopper friends and the weird older guy that doesn't think he's weird for running around with half-naked 12 year olds.

Pretty much, it all boils down to: stop pandering to your Japanese fanbase and all the cliches/mechanics they expect.

You see, I actually disagree with you on a couple points.

I like the turn based combat of traditional JRPG's. What I do not like are all the attempts to make a halfway between an action game and the JRPG combat system. I could go into great detail about this, but I wont. I am lazy.

Also, by "allow dialog options that actually matter" I assume you want dialog options that allow you to shape the story instead of merely participating in the story. Again, this is an ok idea in theory, but having multiple story paths will inevitably lead to a shallow story (at least more shallow than it was before.) I prefer a deep story to participate in, even if I cannot shape that story.

This is not to say you are wrong on these points. It is a matter of personal preference. What this does demonstrate is that JRPG's are a niche genre broken into even smaller groups.

I think the main thing is to stop treating every game like it needs to be a AAA release. Instead of making one massive game that must appeal to everyone (resulting in a game that lacks focus that many people may like but no one will truly love,) a company could instead make smaller budget games that appeals greatly to their target crowds.

Besides, the JRPG was a genre born out of the hardware limitations of the NES level gaming. We don't need a modern scale development cycle to make a top tier JRPG.

...please OP, tell me that you're joking. JRPGs allready have their own brand of badly done, boring, annoying grimdarkness. Adding the WH40K style of badly done, boring, annoying grimdarkness to that would result in a wansgty black hole. What JRPGs need is to ditch the menu-combat systems or alter them into the Kingdom Hearts 2 style and get good writing and likeable characters again.

The Wykydtron:

sageoftruth:

What he said. Hang in there. The first part of the game is by far the worst, but once they take off the training wheels, let you tackle the first dungeon, and give you full control, it's a blast, in my humble opinion.

Ah my bad, I wasn't actually being sarcastic with my description of the first 2 hours. I do find them endlessly enjoyable, although I can see how other people could get bored by it. Good storytelling just never gets old for me :3

As a general rule, if I call something hype i'm being serious XD

Hype is srs bsns

My apologies as well. I was actually directing this at the guy you were talking to. I was afraid it would be taken this way, given the way we all receive notifications when we are quoted. I was just backing you up, but I also agree that Persona 4, like any JRPG isn't for everyone.

Sorry, if you think the lack of grittyness is what is lacking in jrpg, you don't see what's the problem in jrpg.

As in:

1) boring, predictable, stereotyped plot and characters (which has NOTHING to do with the grittyness)

2) boring gameplay

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