Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"

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I don't get why people say the game is sexist?

It's full of really strong female characters who drive the plot forward: Triss, Ves, Philippa, Sile and Saskia?

It's better than the strange female characters in DA2 who only exist for fanservice such as Isabella and Merrill.

Batman:

Sorry about going off rails here op but if you want my opinion: just enjoy a game if you find it entertaining, who cares if game X is mature or game Y is more grounded in reality at the end of the day it's a piece of entertainment and different people have different ideas of what's entertaining or meaningful for them. This dick swinging contest of game A was totally better than game D, and you must play game Z or your a moron gets nobody nowhere. Just a lot of butthurt comments and bitter rebukes.
wow... that argument degenerated fast.

What I saw in the forums were people discussing the DA games just completely writing off TW2 as "sexist" and "immature" and "mysogenist", when in fact DA could learn a lot from that series of games.

BrotherRool:

But on the subject of rape I would like to just add a reason why using it lightly like this isn't such a good idea.

Rape is such a violent and torturous act that it can leave it#s victims with scars for years to come as a normal response to something so abnormal and cruel. In particular, for some people, it being mentioned in media like this, or portrayed or described in particular circumstances or lights can trigger a flashback. So whenever you include rape in a fictional work, there's always going to be a chance that it#s going to cause someone playing your game/watching your film/reading your book to reexperience the feeling of being raped.

While I understand the sentiment, doesn't that mean you oppose modern military shooters in case they cause a reaction for a soldier suffering from Shell Shock/PTSD?

Should we have our media not portray anything that could negatively impact somebody suffering from an extreme level of trauma?

I don't see how one can be justified and the other not. Like how people claim that "Boobs promotes sexism" but very few will support the idea that "Violent games promote killing."

It just seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

endtherapture:
What I saw in the forums were people discussing the DA games just completely writing off TW2 as "sexist" and "immature" and "mysogenist", when in fact DA could learn a lot from that series of games.

Even if DA could learn a thing or two from the Witcher series would this necessarily be a good thing? Isn't the fact that they both present different takes on standard fantasy what drew in the fans in the first place? If the fans of franchise 'G' dislike franchise 'H' why must franchise 'H' be forced on them? The DA fans can turn around and say that the Witcher series can learn a thing or two from Dragon Age and they would be justified in doing so. Just as justified as you were with your statement.
Perspective is a bitch to deal with, eh ;)

Legion:

While I understand the sentiment, doesn't that mean you oppose modern military shooters in case they cause a reaction for a soldier suffering from Shell Shock/PTSD?

Should we have our media not portray anything that could negatively impact somebody suffering from an extreme level of trauma?

I don't see how one can be justified and the other not. Like how people claim that "Boobs promotes sexism" but very few will support the idea that "Violent games promote killing."

It just seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

The first thing I'd reach for is that MMS' are more explicit about what their content is. No-one is going to be ambushed by the fact that soldiers get shot in CoD, whereas even I would be loathe to describe the Witcher as a rape simulator =D

On the other hand, I did think of violent assault and I have no answers to that as far as PTSD

On the bigger issues of rape/versus killing (because in every form of fiction the former is treated a lot worse than the latter and I imagine they're cues which you've probably experienced to, although intellectually you may not agree with it. Think of how villains are portrayed when they rape someone, versus straight up killing. Or the way revenge flicks contain violent death and sometimes even mild torture but almost never has the sympathetic protagonist raped someone. Or the Penny Arcade rape scandal, versus it's normal killery content). I think the big thing is that there is really no upside to rape. There are a lot of reasons, debatable but there, we've decided as a society it's acceptable to kill people. And war is generally not disapproved of as an end to a means, which is why we fund it and train people to do it. Whereas very few societies approve of rape as a means to an end. And rape almost exclusively involves a defenceless victim and a senseless crime, whereas the soldiers who die, on the first-world countries side at least, are normally in a superior position, bravely laying down their lives for something. I'm still thinking about it, it's not something I've fully understood and these are my best guesses so far, but thats the way I feel.

I kinda wish people think hard before they include sexual violation, maybe because, unlike death and violence, it#s something that's very easy to avoid if you don't want to tackle it head on. But I'm not calling for censorship. I do think we can agree that taking a dark and painful theme and using it in a superficial manner because you want your game to be recognised as dark and painful isn't a sign of maturity in a game, and is something we often look down upon. It's like 90's comics, instead of embracing more complex themes, they've substituted the same simple campy plots with blood instead of sparkles and to my mind this is definitely how the Witcher uses rape (although not at all how it uses politics and racism. Hence this weird thing where half the game is legitimately mature and half the game is aping maturity in a juvenile fashion). I really don't think many people would describe the Witcher as exploring the difficult situation of rape in any kind of deep way.

...so in conclusion. I guess the main thing is, because you can not have a rape scene in an action film fairly easily without impacting the overall enjoyment of the product, I prefer it when the directors only choose to include it for a very deliberate and important reason because it's an easy way of avoiding some people pain and it's one less subject to be mistreated, with very little advantage to using it in a superficial way (without being exploitative), whereas with death and war it's much harder to avoid them without changing the action film nature, so its more reasonable to want to include it. I think that#s probably why I feel the way I do

Batman:

endtherapture:
What I saw in the forums were people discussing the DA games just completely writing off TW2 as "sexist" and "immature" and "mysogenist", when in fact DA could learn a lot from that series of games.

Even if DA could learn a thing or two from the Witcher series would this necessarily be a good thing? Isn't the fact that they both present different takes on standard fantasy what drew in the fans in the first place? If the fans of franchise 'G' dislike franchise 'H' why must franchise 'H' be forced on them? The DA fans can turn around and say that the Witcher series can learn a thing or two from Dragon Age and they would be justified in doing so. Just as justified as you were with your statement.
Perspective is a bitch to deal with, eh ;)

The thing is, I don't instantly address Dragon Age as awful. I think TW could've don with developing Triss, Zoltan and Dandelion more, maybe have some personal quests, in the way, that DA does.

DA was supposed to be dark fantasy in the vein of A Song of Ice and Fire - morally ambigious, dark and forboding - Bioware said this themselves - they could take a lot of inspiration and ideas from TW because it is that dark setting that DA tried and failed to be.

Well, they are alot more mature than most games

It's not mature, it's just got a high age rating. Spec Ops: The Line is mature. The Dark Knight is mature. Avatar: The Last Airbender is mature. Why? Because they dive into serious isusses with good writing and intelligence. The Witcher is just a porno with a thin layer of extreme bloodshed, generic dark fantasy, awful gameplay and glorious PC master race propoganda thrown over it.

Gearhead mk2:
It's not mature, it's just got a high age rating. Spec Ops: The Line is mature. The Dark Knight is mature. Avatar: The Last Airbender is mature. Why? Because they dive into serious isusses with good writing and intelligence. The Witcher is just a porno with a thin layer of extreme bloodshed, generic dark fantasy, awful gameplay and glorious PC master race propoganda thrown over it.

Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.

Edit: Oh yeah, by the way, OP, venturing into and giving attention to someone in the Bioware Social Cesspit is your first mistake. It's the worst possible combination of fanboyism and quasi-intellectualism. I've read things there that are more stupid than I care to describe.

Note that I'm not saying everybody who goes there is stupid. But why anyone who isn't stupid and still does go there is beyond me.

darth.pixie:
It's as mature as real life, I suppose. You can go around laughing at breasts, sex scenes, dirty jokes or swearwords or you could focus on the more plot related aspects such as politics and death. It's a fairly accurate interpretation of a medieval society at its worst. Yes, people do make dirty jokes (don't you?), yes there is sex, yes there are underlying plots around and kings are just thugs with an army. I don't think it's trying to be mature as much as it tries to be realistic and accurate in its time-frame.

It's just not wrapped in a silk glove. It doesn't try to tell you this or that is proper, you can't save everyone and everything and you're not some big damn hero whose influence makes everyone around a better person.

Well said. You stated my reasoning on this pretty much as well as one could hope for.

It bothers me just how many people have this sort of separation between entertainment and tits/expletives.

The Witcher series is easily one of the most mature ones out there. It doesn't shy away from the heavier stuff (you might say it does so callously, but then we're not playing a game where the point is to turn the universe into 21st century western world), it doesn't have the fucking embarrassing reservations about language and sex that so many (the vast majority, really) other ostensibly mature games do, and that alone gives this series - and their devs - a massive amount of cred.

I think seeing swearing as some sort of designers-having-a-giggle-fit thing says more about the person's inability to view expletives as a part of language than it does about the actual maturity of the game. Or its designers'.

fucking and swearing is always "mature"....

MacNille:
Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.

I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.

Well, if I were to compare the Dragon Age Series to the Witcher series, I'd say that The Witcher series is a hell of a lot more "mature" in that it deals with darker themes and such in a very straightforward manner. The gray morality it enforces makes it a lot darker than Dragon Age but Dragon Age was much more "fantastical" on the whole. However, DA2 tried to really enforce their themes in a pretty ineffective manner, so nothing really seemed to matter to me. The Witcher makes you look at the world as it relates to Geralt and that results in you seriously considering your choices rather than choosing the default "good" choice.

While neither series is entirely "mature," The Witcher is on the whole more "mature."

EDIT: In a sense, The Witcher is a more realistic portrayal of the fantasy genre. Swearing, sex, and such are seen in real life and your average person either takes it with a grain of salt or makes jokes. Dragon Age is serious and very clean cut. It has themes it wants to push but it doesn't do it in a very realistic fashion. Dragon Age feels like High Fantasy while The Witcher feels like Dark Fantasy.

Gearhead mk2:

MacNille:
Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.

I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.

If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.

And The Witcher is NOTHING like 40K. If you had played it, you would know that.

The Madman:
FINALLY someone else that's familiar with Scott Lynch. It's been getting damned frustrating how little known he is despite being such an amazing author. He deserves more attention.

Lynch is probably my least favorite of my most favorite branch of fantasy...that being aggressively grey-scale low fantasy. I prefer Martin's obsessive world building (although he's starting to get lost in his own details) and Abercrombie's verve and wit to Lynch's floral prose. Still...good books. Better than most.

Bara_no_Hime:
Many people who dislike fantastic elements in stories prefer Low Fantasy because it doesn't require as much suspension of disbelief. Because it is less fantastic and often more bloody and gritty, many people consider it more "mature".

However, like with all things, maturity and quality have nothing to do with genre. Some people pretend that they do because they want to seem mature while enjoying the things that they enjoy, and they want to make fun of people who enjoy what they don't enjoy, but that is just people being pretentious jerks and has nothing to do with the quality of the actual work being looked at.

I'll generally agree with this, with the caveat that it is my experience with low fantasy that it tends to (not universally, but tends to) tackle more "adult" themes and plot elements than high fantasy, which seems to routinely fall into the honey trap of plucky heroes vs ultimate evil. It's very rare to find high fantasy that doesn't aggressively ape Tolkien, as well, making it a highly incestuous sub genre.

The problem with "mature" is that it's something of a value judgment, and thus highly subjective. While I don't think the politics and dark worlds of games like The Witcher or books like GoT would appeal to the very young (hence the "adult" tag), magic and flights of fantasy have an ageless appeal. When I dismiss a game like Dragon Age as being for young adults, it's not the spells and orcs doing it, it's the binary morality, Boy's Own Adventure plotting and PG-13 presentation. In fairness to Dragon Age, it does take some wild stabs at (extremely broad) racism and prejudice metaphors, but it has difficulty weaving them into the subtext, and unlike the Witcher it's pretty clear about whom it considers to be on the side of the angels.

Gearhead mk2:
I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.

Having elaborate opinions on games you've never played, shows you've never watched, books you've never read, etc, is probably something you want to keep to yourself. It doesn't reflect well on you, is what I'm saying.

Neither does the axe you are grinding about PC gamers, while we're on the topic.

BrotherRool:
The Witcher isn't mature in terms of sex, women and NPC dialogue. In fact, it's incredibly immature and half the dialogue has been written by a 13 year old. There's a whole gameplay mechanic that would give people who know what a female is migraine's just thinking about the design of it.

'I couldn't sleep last night over the sound of my neighbour beating his wife' as NPC dialoge is something that belongs in Saints Row, it is the purple dildo of maturity and is only fitting in a game which doesn't understand the words it's using.

However I think once you get over the fact the writers have giggling fits whenever they hear the word 'whore', I think the politics and grey morality is fairly mature. Overall there was too much juvenile crud for me, but fantasy is often famously airy fairy and bringing in some grit is a gesture I can understand a lot of people getting behind. And the racism stuff was done pretty well.

So not Planescape: Torment, and pretty darn juvenile in some aspects, but a decent job in others

Pretty much this. There is this tendency for people to believe that "Mature" means dark and a lot of sex, Game of Thrones for example has this same idea. But that is not something that makes a game or story "Mature", it's all about the subject matter. Dealing with the various political factions and the subject of racism towards non-humans is what makes the game mature, someone shouting out "whore" or showing their titties is not.

Dragon Age: Origins for example is a mature story and the way BioWare deals with relationships is also very mature, and yet they dont have to have constant cursing or nudity to show that they are a "big boy" game. Now, I'm not saying a game can't have cursing and nudity and still be considered good and serious but it has to be within context. Showing off nudity or having lots of cursing just for the sake of having it doesnt make the game any more mature, it just comes off as some little kids idea of "mature".

voltair27:
If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.

No. If I hadn't studied it, then my opinion would have no weight whatsoever. I don't just blindly hate on stuff. If I hear something that piques my interest, for better or worse, I investigate it. Even for stuff tht evryone and their mother knows is bad, like Twilight, I always look it up before I start praising/raging. Like I said, there are some aspects of it The Witcher I like, but from what I've seen of it the series as a whole comes off as fairly pretentious when it's main claims to maturity seem to be constant swearing, generic dark fantasy and a sex card collecting minigame as opposed to anything actually deep.

BrotherRool:
*snip*

Hmmm, that's very well put, and I can see your point. I can see where you are coming from, and I more or less agree on all the points you made.

That's not to say that I think censorship is a good idea, but I can certainly agree that people should think deeply before including things such as rape in their fiction, and I am completely against the idea of including it purely for the case of trying to be dark and edgy.

I do feel that sometimes, when it comes to sexual matters people tend to see what they want to see though. For example I was flicking through an Xbox magazine today and came across their article on the new Tomb Raider game. They showed a picture of Lara Croft climbing a tower and the caption underneath sarcastically said "Nope. There's nothing phallic about this at all..." which I personally felt was ridiculous. Nobody thinks it's sexual when it's Ezio in Assassins Creed, or Jason Brody in Farcry 3, but as it's a female, it's "got" to be a sexual innuendo.

As for how this relates to rape or sexual violence, I think some people see it to be used as a tool to be "dark" in games even when it isn't. Nobody seems to think The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo has rape for the sake of it, but games seem to have this almost unique criticism where serious issues are automatically assumed to be controversial for shock value rather than adding to the story itself.

BloatedGuppy:
Having elaborate opinions on games you've never played, shows you've never watched, books you've never read, etc, is probably something you want to keep to yourself. It doesn't reflect well on you, is what I'm saying. Neither does the axe you are grinding about PC gamers, while we're on the topic.

I know I do look a kinda bad here, but I just wanted to state what I thought of the series after I looked at it. You don't always need to see something firsthand to judge it: you can research it, analyse it, pick it apart. I haven't researched The Witcher amazingly deeply I admit, but I'm not stating my opinion to be the be-all-end-all correct answer. I'm just saying what I think of the series after I've given it a look. And I'm not hating on PC gamers. I play 360 and PC in equal measure. I'm hating on the people that honestly belive that "glorious PC gaming master race" stuff.

Gearhead mk2:

voltair27:
If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.

No. If I hadn't studied it, then my opinion would have no weight whatsoever. I don't just blindly hate on stuff. If I hear something that piques my interest, for better or worse, I investigate it. Even for stuff tht evryone and their mother knows is bad, like Twilight, I always look it up before I start praising/raging. Like I said, there are some aspects of it The Witcher I like, but from what I've seen of it the series as a whole comes off as fairly pretentious when it's main claims to maturity seem to be constant swearing, generic dark fantasy and a sex card collecting minigame as opposed to anything actually deep.

Constant swearing seems to be an overhype. There's about as much swearing in the game as in your average everyday life. It's pretty present, but not as noticeable as you think.

And The Witcher is FAR from generic. It's one of the only settings I've seen that has magic users exploring science with their talents. They know about genetics and other modern day subjects because some wizards took the time to explore the natural world. Even Eberron doesn't do that.

And the sexcard collecting is a minigame. It's ignorable. I had no problem with it and found it an amusing aside more than anything. If you take it as a major feature of the game, then you're clearly biased.

Some parts of the game, such as stilted dialogue and odd parts of the plot, are definitely detractors but overall it's a good game.

Gearhead mk2:

MacNille:
Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.

I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.

As a huge Wh40k nerd; i will take issue with that statement about wh40k. First things first: It is a dark SC-FI fantasy. HUGE diffrence between those two worlds. Second, it seems that you haven't read any of the gaunts ghost novels or any other of the black library books. There are a lot of likable characters in the setting. I bet that you haven't played any of the games either then. Neither the boardgame or any of the video games, based on your track record.

Legion:

BrotherRool:
*snip*

Hmmm, that's very well put, and I can see your point. I can see where you are coming from, and I more or less agree on all the points you made.

That's not to say that I think censorship is a good idea, but I can certainly agree that people should think deeply before including things such as rape in their fiction, and I am completely against the idea of including it purely for the case of trying to be dark and edgy.

I do feel that sometimes, when it comes to sexual matters people tend to see what they want to see though. For example I was flicking through an Xbox magazine today and came across their article on the new Tomb Raider game. They showed a picture of Lara Croft climbing a tower and the caption underneath sarcastically said "Nope. There's nothing phallic about this at all..." which I personally felt was ridiculous. Nobody thinks it's sexual when it's Ezio in Assassins Creed, or Jason Brody in Farcry 3, but as it's a female, it's "got" to be a sexual innuendo.

As for how this relates to rape or sexual violence, I think some people see it to be used as a tool to be "dark" in games even when it isn't. Nobody seems to think The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo has rape for the sake of it, but games seem to have this almost unique criticism where serious issues are automatically assumed to be controversial for shock value rather than adding to the story itself.

That's fair enough, the way the media, and particularly the non-gaming media, handles sex in games is ridiculously sensationalist. Like that Mass Effect scandal, over a tame, plot relevant sex scene that wouldn't even make someone bat an eyelid in any other medium. And there are a lot of instances where the gaming community can get all over-wrought with this stuff, you're Lara Croft example sounds absolutely mad.

I think games are still finding their feet though, and their are lots of cases where the serious issues aren't there to have serious issues, and the Witcher as far as sex (but not racism) is one of those (although probably not exactly to seek controversy) but we're getting a lot of games now, particularly recently that are taking serious issues and doing things with them that no other medium could (Katawa Shoujo, Catherine, Spec:Ops, even Far Cry 3) and I think it's beginning to be recognised.

voltair27:
Constant swearing seems to be an overhype. There's about as much swearing in the game as in your average everyday life. It's pretty present, but not as noticeable as you think. And The Witcher is FAR from generic. It's one of the only settings I've seen that has magic users exploring science with their talents. They know about genetics and other modern day subjects because some wizards took the time to explore the natural world. Even Eberron doesn't do that. And the sexcard collecting is a minigame. It's ignorable. I had no problem with it and found it an amusing aside more than anything. If you take it as a major feature of the game, then you're clearly biased. Some parts of the game, such as stilted dialogue and odd parts of the plot, are definitely detractors but overall it's a good game.

I admit, I did not know about the whole "studying magic as a science" bit. That is a really cool, interesting idea. And a lot of RPGs do have some odd plot twists and some bad speech. Just thank god it's not at FFX levels. But the sex card thing? I wasn't saying it was an integral part of the game, I know it's a optional minigame. I was saying it seemed to me that it was the game's main claim to maturity, and frankly if a slightly objectifying card game is the best you've got...

MacNille:
As a huge Wh40k nerd; i will take issue with that statement about wh40k. First things first: It is a dark SC-FI fantasy. HUGE diffrence between those two worlds. Second, it seems that you haven't read any of the gaunts ghost novels or any other of the black library books. There are a lot of likable characters in the setting. I bet that you haven't played any of the games either then. Neither the boardgame or any of the video games, based on your track record.

I'm an associate with a guy who's a huge 40K fan on this site. He's tried explaning the verse and all it's twists and turns, but from what I've heard of it, it's just trying to be dark for the sake of being dark, and even with that it's going so overboard I can't really take it seriously. Da Orkz are the only thing I've heard of in that verse that I like because they seem to realise just how stupid and over-the-top everything is and just go crazy with it, but even with them I think they're massivley OP.

Gearhead mk2:
I'm an associate with a guy who's a huge 40K fan on this site. He's tried explaning the verse and all it's twists and turns, but from what I've heard of it, it's just trying to be dark for the sake of being dark, and even with that it's going so overboard I can't really take it seriously. Da Orkz are the only thing I've heard of in that verse that I like because they seem to realise just how stupid and over-the-top everything is and just go crazy with it, but even with them I think they're massivley OP.

Yeah, 40K works like that but if you actually zoom into some of the small things, it's a worthwhile setting. The Macro is really horribly put together and the canon contradicts itself a great deal. But the Micro is pretty interesting. Play Dark Crusade, it's really fun.

I played the first one and the cards made me feel physically ill. I didn't buy Witcher 2 because of that. A lot of people defend it by saying 'Oh it's the books setting everything is sexist'. Well that's nice and everything but it doesn't stop it from making me feel uncomfortable.

So yeah it's probably mature in the way Leisure suit Larry is mature...

It would be nice to enjoy the gameplay without that stuff being rubbed in your face but what can you do. Hoping cdprojeckt bring an RPG out one day with a different setting so maybe I can play it.

It's the only AAA game series I really feel excluded from as a female.

voltair27:
40K works like that but if you actually zoom into some of the small things, it's a worthwhile setting. The Macro is really horribly put together and the canon contradicts itself a great deal. But the Micro is pretty interesting. Play Dark Crusade, it's really fun.

RTS' aren't really my thing, but I'll give it a look. If all else fails, I could just get Soulstorm for the lols.

Gearhead mk2:

voltair27:
40K works like that but if you actually zoom into some of the small things, it's a worthwhile setting. The Macro is really horribly put together and the canon contradicts itself a great deal. But the Micro is pretty interesting. Play Dark Crusade, it's really fun.

RTS' aren't really my thing, but I'll give it a look. If all else fails, I could just get Soulstorm for the lols.

Eh, Soulstorm was plagued with absurdly long loading screens and a cheating AI. Necrons and Eldar would absolutely destroy everything in their path.

Besides, you need the main Dawn of War game and each of the previous expansions in order to use all the races.

Well, if throwing tits, cussing and politicking into a game makes it mature, then yes. Personally, I didn't see any big difference compared to most other games regarding maturity. Don't get me wrong, I love the Witcher series, but it ain't the shining beacon of intellectual superiority most of the fans and marketing make it out to be.

Gearhead mk2:
It's not mature, it's just got a high age rating. Spec Ops: The Line is mature. The Dark Knight is mature. Avatar: The Last Airbender is mature. Why? Because they dive into serious isusses with good writing and intelligence. The Witcher is just a porno with a thin layer of extreme bloodshed, generic dark fantasy, awful gameplay and glorious PC master race propoganda thrown over it.

Saying that the Witcher is "a porno with a thin layer of dark fantasy" is less justified than saying that The Dark Knight is "a superhero film," or that Spec Ops: The Line is "a jingoistic military shooter."

That's like calling Van Gogh's Sunflowers an illustration for an agricultural textbook.

Edit: Oh, look. You haven't actually played it. What a surprise.

Gearhead mk2:
I know I do look a kinda bad here, but I just wanted to state what I thought of the series after I looked at it. You don't always need to see something firsthand to judge it: you can research it, analyse it, pick it apart.

Until you have experienced it in its completion, you will always have an incomplete understanding of it. You referenced Avatar: The Last Airbender earlier. My only exposure to that series has been through the notoriously poor M. Night Shyamalan film, and an art style that I find reminiscent (in still shots) of bad Saturday Morning Cartoons. Would it be appropriate for me to form an opinion based around these impressions? Or would it be unfair to the material?

Moonlight Butterfly:
I played the first one and the cards made me feel physically ill. I didn't buy Witcher 2 because of that. A lot of people defend it by saying 'Oh it's the books setting everything is sexist'. Well that's nice and everything but it doesn't stop it from making me feel uncomfortable.

So yeah it's probably mature in the way Leisure suit Larry is mature...

I didn't care for the cards either. I won't say they made me physically ill, but there was a definite squick factor to them, and I was embarrassed both to be playing the game, and embarrassed for CD Projekt having something like that in there. The second game, thankfully, abandoned them, and did not treat sexual congress as a "gotta catch em all" mini-game, Geralt's fabled promiscuity notwithstanding.

Not sure LSL is a fair analogue for either game, although I can see where you might have gotten that impression from Witcher 1.

Moonlight Butterfly:
I played the first one and the cards made me feel physically ill. I didn't buy Witcher 2 because of that. A lot of people defend it by saying 'Oh it's the books setting everything is sexist'. Well that's nice and everything but it doesn't stop it from making me feel uncomfortable.

People love to talk about sexism being so prevalent in The Witcher, but honestly, I don't see it.

The card collecting game was fucking dumb and one of the worst parts of the first game, but it was a minor part of the game. I'm sorry it ruined the game for you, but for me its not enough to judge the entire series on.

But other than that, if you look at the second game, how much sexism do you have? You regularly see men asserting dominance over women, but it is mostly physical, something that makes sense in the setting (change this and you start fucking around with the suspension of disbelief, which could greatly harm the quality of the games/books). Not to mention most of the females catching the hate are elves, a species which is hunted all around, regardless of gender.

And then you have a lodge of sorceresses made up exclusively of females. The lodge is extremely powerful and without wanting to spoil too much, make up a deciding factor in both past and current conflicts. Again, a lot of people love to call this sexist too, since the lodge is pretty manipulative, but everyone fucking is. It doesn't matter if you look at the lodge, a certain kingdom or a group of another kind; their all assholes and bitches.

Moonlight Butterfly:

So yeah it's probably mature in the way Leisure suit Larry is mature...

It takes a special kind of clueless to say this.

It is mature in the way that The Witcher is mature. The main focus of the story in both games is put on politics and space elves. Romance is secondary.

Leisure Suit Larry, on the other hand, has the main focus of tits.

Maybe if The Witcher 3 gets the subtitle "The Wild Hunt (For Tits)" and the story can be summed up as "Geralt lays down his swords and turns his focus on banging every woman in Temeria" you can come back in 2014 and say that, but until then, honestly, don't, unless you want to look stupid (or ignorant, stupid is a bit harsh).

Moonlight Butterfly:
It would be nice to enjoy the gameplay without that stuff being rubbed in your face but what can you do. Hoping cdprojeckt bring an RPG out one day with a different setting so maybe I can play it.

Wait for the next 2 games (Cyberpunk and The Witcher 3) and when you play them, try to do so without desperately trying to see sexism in every corner of them. You might be surprised.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
snip

I'm not 'trying' to see it. And to be honest if you think monsters and elves are perfectly acceptable but physically capable or otherwise dominant females will break your suspense of disbelief then I don't really know what to say to you.

Skyrim has this and it does no damage to the game whatsoever. I find it kind of disturbing that society being dismissive towards women is part of the male power fantasy.

Well, it seems to be aimed at a slightly older batch of teenage boys, so I guess so.

Azahul:

Misogynistic? It's a game with strong women, with weak women, with honourable women (heck, the only truly "good" character I met in the course of my first playthrough was a woman), with despicable villainesses, and men of every stripe as well.

I'm going to say this, especially since he clearly commented on the writing. You can have strong women and still have misogynistic writing. The end result? Misogynistic, still.

As the two are not mutually exclusive, the argument presented here is worthless.

Moonlight Butterfly:
It would be nice to enjoy the gameplay without that stuff being rubbed in your face but what can you do. Hoping cdprojeckt bring an RPG out one day with a different setting so maybe I can play it.

Are you aware of their upcoming Cyberpunk 2077 RPG?

It's the only AAA game series I really feel excluded from as a female.

I'm kind of sad to hear that, although to be honest I'm not surprised. Treating sex like a mini-game is a little too...James Bond. You probably couldn't get away with it in the current climate.

You might prefer the second game. It's still very forward about the sex, but it's only with two characters (Triss and Ves, both of which are very well-rounded and developed) and there's only two real sex scenes, both of which you can skip over entirely if you're not careful. More importantly, it treats the sex scenes as an actual romantic interaction between the two characters, rather than as a card collection minigame.

In CD Projekt's defence, they were being faithful to the source material (in that Geralt is a promiscuous horndog in the books as well). And the game itself is...what, five years old? It was never meant to reach a large audience outside Poland, and I don't even think CD Projekt expected it to reach a large female audience to boot.

Moonlight Butterfly:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
snip

I'm not 'trying' to see it. And to be honest if you think monsters and elves are perfectly acceptable but physically capable or otherwise dominant females will break your suspense of disbelief then I don't really know what to say to you.

Sorry, but The Witcher 2 has a lot of capable females compared to many other games.
The entire lodge of Sorceresses that Smash was talking about, a commander (possibly ruler of a new state), probably the best soldier that a certain group of warriors has, and a lot of the member of the elvish freedom fighters/terrorist squads are all female. I even found some random NPC with a full conversation that was a member of a woman's suffrage movement.

Yes, the sex cards (and most of the first game) was fucking dumb, and yes the games do have incapable women in them, but from someone who's not even a massive fan of the series you're speaking from ignorance and you're just going to get people annoyed and correcting you.

Moonlight Butterfly:
I'm not 'trying' to see it. And to be honest if you think monsters and elves are perfectly acceptable but physically capable or otherwise dominant females will break your suspense of disbelief then I don't really know what to say to you.

Just a tip - there are plenty of physically and mentally capable female characters in the Witcher 1 & 2.

The society depicted is sexist, but the writing itself is far from it.

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