SkullGirl's Indiegogo Project: Lab Zero Games needs funds to finish its first DLC character.

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Legion:

SweetShark:

A Skullgirls Character Cost $250k Each To Create!!!

Holy Molly Makarony!!!! This is a lot of money!!!!

I originally read that as $250 and was wondering what was so bad considering animation, tools and so on, but Christ.... how the hell can they justify that kind of cost?

Typically speaking in any business personnel is the biggest drain on money in any organization. Also, one of the unique things is that every single frame in this game is hand drawn.

TrevHead:
now that CAVE who are the CAPCOM of the shmup genre have in the recent collapse of the arcades have lost a little bit of the tight balancing they are renown for (although they still put other games to shame). I would guess that the only answer for arcade genres is to follow the lead of PC games and do closed Betas and patching, but then we run into MS and Sony charging $10k per patch and setting file size limits.

Well CAVE are specialist Shmup game makers as far as I know so they arent like Capcom really as Capcom make a range of games also are the arcades collapsing in Japan as well? I would imagine thats where CAVE do their betas and testing if it is thats a shame Japanese arcades are awesome in my experience. As for the file patch size I think its just Microsoft that limit it for whatever reason either they want you to have to patch multiple times so they get more money or they want efficiently coded patches that download quickly (depending on your view).

Dreiko:

If you don't understand why fighting game chars are so expensive to make, read this:

http://kofaniv.snkplaymore.co.jp/english/info/15th_anniv/2d_dot/creation/index.php

It may give you a new appreciation on the medium.

Wow I dont think thats 100% relative to Skullgirls as they reckon they can get a character out in a few months and I would question it for KOF as well I mean they did release 3 DLC characters but then these could quite possibly have been made already and just cut or started shortly after development of the rest of the game who knows but I would say KoF XIII s art and animation is top notch. Animation wise Skullgirls tops it (imo) as it seems to flow smoother but overall for detail on character models and animation as a whole KoF XIII is in a class of it own (despite having a substantially fewer frames of animation per character it seems (than a lot of other 2d fighters)) the game is beautiful I never played XII which is what that article seems to be on but as far as I know XIII uses the same models but just adds more. Although they dont seem as high res as skullgirls or Blazblue (do they use vector models in Blazblue?)

Black Reaper:

If Street Fighter characters take a million to make,i cannot imagine how much money goes into a Blazblue character

I heard that as well and I just thought WTF 1 million and the characters look terrible they animate fine but god is the art ugly and not exactly the most detailed sort of reminds me of playdoh for some characters whenever I look at them. I dont know how much a Blazblue character costs they are pretty detailed but from what I have heard shortcuts are used to keep the costs down such as weapons and accessories changing scale and stretching blades as well as cheap sword trail slashes but thats just what I have heard and it could be complete rubbish I just worry about the final product and Blazblue looks great to me I cant see it costing more than 1 million though thats just stupid money and Arc arent huge.

kiri2tsubasa:

There is no easy way to put this so here it is. You are wrong and know nothing as far as game design goes. that ALL frames in this game are hand drawn and not computer generated, the fact it is only 250K is surprisingly cheap.

Oh yes, they have to pay all the people involved, that was never my issue. Yes, all the frames in Skullgirls are drawn individually, but so were all the in-game frames in Dust: an Elysian tail. Expanding on that example further, I have seen a lot of impressive things come out of people's basements over the years, thanks to the internet. I wonder how many people it would realistically take to make a SKullgirls character if they had to minimize it; considering I have seen people solo such projects(yes even in games, as I mentioned). But going by the industry standard, I guess the Skullgirls thing isn't too bad, even if it does seem a little high. The Street Fighter thing though; I totally won't accept that, at least not as a necessary evil. A million for one Street fighter character? Clearly they are paying way to many people to work on things like this. That is, of course not to say it should only take one person to make a street fighter character (even though one person could), just saying it shouldn't take as many as they apparently use. With more competence involved, it wouldn't take a small army to make something like a SF4 character, and they wouldn't have to pay said army accordingly.

Maximum Bert:

TrevHead:
now that CAVE who are the CAPCOM of the shmup genre have in the recent collapse of the arcades have lost a little bit of the tight balancing they are renown for (although they still put other games to shame). I would guess that the only answer for arcade genres is to follow the lead of PC games and do closed Betas and patching, but then we run into MS and Sony charging $10k per patch and setting file size limits.

Well CAVE are specialist Shmup game makers as far as I know so they arent like Capcom really as Capcom make a range of games also are the arcades collapsing in Japan as well? I would imagine thats where CAVE do their betas and testing if it is thats a shame Japanese arcades are awesome in my experience. As for the file patch size I think its just Microsoft that limit it for whatever reason either they want you to have to patch multiple times so they get more money or they want efficiently coded patches that download quickly (depending on your view).

Rereading my original post I think I was been hyperbolic in saying that Japanese are collapsing but from what I can gather from other ppl who live in Japan is that the market is certainly contracting, to such a degree that it's no longer economically viable for many arcade devs to make true custom made chip Arcade Printed Circuit Boards and moving on to PC based systems like NESiCAxLIVE which excludes the home enthusiast market, ppl who apart from spending thousands of pounds on a game also help with playtesting, IIRC that particular system doesn't even work outside of Japan, which even further damages sales.

NESiCAxLIVE seems to be where many shmup devs are heading but I don't know the situation with Fighters, since they are such a popular genre in the arcades I would guess that atleast Capcom are in a situation to afford to make their own arcade PCBs.

You are correct in Sony not enforcing such tight patching limits as MS although 10k per patch is too much for any multiplat mid tier / indie dev to swallow.

TrevHead:
I too am worried about how the lack of arcades will effect not just fighters but shmups. For one the lack of a revinue stream for niche genres but most the fact that it's in the arcade halls where these games are playtested by the most skilled players. Take away such a hotbed of hardcore gamers and the games loose that tight balancing in the fighter mechanics or in the case of shmups providing extreamly deep score mechanics that players can pick apart and work out complex highscore strategies.

I already know that CAVE who are the CAPCOM of the shmup genre have in the recent collapse of the arcades have lost a little bit of the tight balancing they are renown for (although they still put other games to shame). I would guess that the only answer for arcade genres is to follow the lead of PC games and do closed Betas and patching, but then we run into MS and Sony charging $10k per patch and setting file size limits.

BTW from what I've heard is that MikeZ has mentioned that with this fundraiser been success full he is going to use the DLC to push the delayed 360 patch through.

Anyway console manufacturers are going to have to modify their beta and patching process in the next gen to make it possible for arcade / console exclusives to do extensive playtesting.

It's good to hear the the 360 version will finally be brought up to date. I am optimistic about the Ouya and Ouya-bandwagon-esque ideas as if something like that became the "console" standard for a given game or genre then playtesting and updating would be infinitely faster and cheaper. Fighting games and shmups are games that I'm not sure survive the next console cycle without something radically changing in the way that game development works.

image

I know that I will say it will be strange....but I don't want Brain Drain as a DLC Character.
I want him as the main villain in Skullgirls 2!

He look simple so badass to be just a simple DLC to me.

SkullGirls wasn't all that great, and having a company make a KS for DLC makes me VERY apprehensive.

Legion:

SweetShark:

A Skullgirls Character Cost $250k Each To Create!!!

Holy Molly Makarony!!!! This is a lot of money!!!!

I originally read that as $250 and was wondering what was so bad considering animation, tools and so on, but Christ.... how the hell can they justify that kind of cost?

Mr.K.:
Well this is absurd, I don't mind people supporting them but don't come in with those sort of bullshit numbers, if the company is in trouble or something that is fine just don't bloody lie when you are asking people to trust you.

Desert Punk:
250k a character is insane.

They need to find a way to cut costs somewhere because there is no way a character like these should cost that much to put together.

xPixelatedx:
And this is exactly why we might see another game crash in our lifetime... what utter, useless industry bloat. Entire games used to be made on budgets like this. I know people making original mugen characters, sprites and all, for free. Of course I don't expect them to make Skullgirls characters for free since this is a product, but the point is should it really cost $250k for something one person could do in their basement? Not blaming the dev team or calling them liars, I am sure that IS how much it costs, but should it? Where exactly has the system failed?

I suggest everyone who's like "uhhh that's a lotta monneeey" read this article here: http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/the-little-fighting-game-that-could/1100-4587/

It breaks down more specifically what everything goes towards - and what that actually means. It also consults with a few outside sources to verify if the cost of the new characters are what one would expect, and it turns out, they're actually running this on a tighter budget than they should. It's a really interesting read.

And I recommend not skim-reading it and making snap-judgements on what you've skimmed because that's just silly.

rhizhim:

xPixelatedx:
snip

you are right. especially when they list 2000$ only to apply hitboxes correctly.
image
thats lunatic. for one single character.

I don't think it's hitboxes for one single character. I think they have to make Squigly's hitboxes, then see, adjust, and tweak how every single existing character already in the game does against those hitboxes. Then, they have to take Squigly and see what her moves will do against all the existing character's hitboxes as well.

Unless that's what you already meant. But yeah, I would read the GiantBomb article. Several people who are involved with big name fighting franchises have stated that what Lab Zero is asking for is quite reasonable, if not actually lower than expected.

Ooh, I like Skullgirls. Lab Zero have a shockingly pleasant amount of people working there and I'd like to lend them a hand.

Just to start a nerd talk here:

It seems Hive and Leduc are from the same family.
Here is a picture from Peacock's story mode:

image

Hive nd Leuc have the exacly same eyes.

Also something I just saw: The doc have the same eyes like the mechanical eyes from the arms of Peacock.
Potentional plot twist in Skullgirls 2?

sarahvait:

rhizhim:

xPixelatedx:
snip

you are right. especially when they list 2000$ only to apply hitboxes correctly.
image
thats lunatic. for one single character.

I don't think it's hitboxes for one single character. I think they have to make Squigly's hitboxes, then see, adjust, and tweak how every single existing character already in the game does against those hitboxes. Then, they have to take Squigly and see what her moves will do against all the existing character's hitboxes as well.

Unless that's what you already meant. But yeah, I would read the GiantBomb article. Several people who are involved with big name fighting franchises have stated that what Lab Zero is asking for is quite reasonable, if not actually lower than expected.

A thousand times this. On a volume basis (i.e. how much content we're talking about) fighting games require more and more stringent testing than pretty much every other genre out there. This is due to both the complex interactions between the characters but also because simple fuckups can ruin a game. I direct your attention now to exhibit A...aka what happened to me last night while playing 'Just Cause 2':
image
Anyone have any idea what the hell went wrong there? Yeah, me neither. But that wasn't game breaking as I was still able to move (sort of) and call for an extraction. Something like that crops up in a fighting game and it's curtains.

SweetShark:
snip

From what I've read from the website, it looks like Big Band belongs to the Lab 8 group as well.

This whole thing really makes me want to play the game again. :D

Because I did a small research, it seems I find out which characters are next for the DLC roster

It's seems TotalBiscuit get in his attention the news about the Skullgirl's DLC character!!!
This make me really, REALLY happy.
Thanks to him, a lot more people will learn about this Indiegogo project and will get more funded to get Big Band and the 3rd DLC character!!!

Cheers!!!!

xPixelatedx:

You immediately answered your own question. It shouldn't take hundreds of people to make a single character. I know someone who made an entire game recently and I would argue that it seems to have as much work put into it as a game like Street Fighter 4. Guy's name is Dean Dodrill and this is the game:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust:_An_Elysian_Tail
If all the in-game assets he made really cost as much to make as people are saying, It must have cost him $100'000'000+ to make this game. It didn't, because he made them by himself. If a single person can make a game of this caliber, you don't need so many for a single Street Fighter character. Oh, and for the record, many of the in-game sprites for the main protagonist and enemies look on par with blaz-blue and Skullgirls (even if the character banter cinematics are lacking).

I am simply saying we have created a very inefficient system that is very unsustainable. It would be one thing if Street Fighter 4 was a giant MMO or something done with the scope and caliber of Mass Effect. But come on, it's Street Fighter. You can basically see everything the game has to offer (literally) within nearly an hour or two (every background/character/move).

Say what you will, their breakdown only leaves about $30,000-$35,000 that anyone could argue over. They're only paying their staff $15/hour, and it adds up to $50,000. They need to make and ship rewards, they need to pay their fees, they need people to test their game (it's a fighting game so the testing needs to be very thorough). There's hardly any wiggle room in that breakdown

EDIT: Also funnily enough the guy that made Dust has posted a bunch in the NeoGAF thread fully in support of the developers, along with the guy that made Sequence. A common theme between their games being that a lot of their professional stuff was done for free or for mate's rates, and that they don't wish that situation on anyone.

Exactly, most people are completely clueless at the amount of manhours it takes to make this stuff. I'm afraid to tally up how much it would have cost to develop my game if I hadn't done it myself.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48498564&postcount=489

Dryk:

xPixelatedx:
[quote="rhizhim" post="9.402022.16583749"]
You immediately answered your own question. It shouldn't take hundreds of people to make a single character. I know someone who made an entire game recently and I would argue that it seems to have as much work put into it as a game like Street Fighter 4. Guy's name is Dean Dodrill and this is the game:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust:_An_Elysian_Tail
If all the in-game assets he made really cost as much to make as people are saying, It must have cost him $100'000'000+ to make this game. It didn't, because he made them by himself. If a single person can make a game of this caliber, you don't need so many for a single Street Fighter character. Oh, and for the record, many of the in-game sprites for the main protagonist and enemies look on par with blaz-blue and Skullgirls (even if the character banter cinematics are lacking).

I am simply saying we have created a very inefficient system that is very unsustainable. It would be one thing if Street Fighter 4 was a giant MMO or something done with the scope and caliber of Mass Effect. But come on, it's Street Fighter. You can basically see everything the game has to offer (literally) within nearly an hour or two (every background/character/move).

Say what you will, their breakdown only leaves about $30,000-$35,000 that anyone could argue over. They're only paying their staff $15/hour, and it adds up to $50,000. They need to make and ship rewards, they need to pay their fees, they need people to test their game (it's a fighting game so the testing needs to be very thorough). There's hardly any wiggle room in that breakdown

EDIT: Also funnily enough the guy that made Dust has posted a bunch in the NeoGAF thread fully in support of the developers, along with the guy that made Sequence. A common theme between their games being that a lot of their professional stuff was done for free or for mate's rates, and that they don't wish that situation on anyone.

Exactly, most people are completely clueless at the amount of manhours it takes to make this stuff. I'm afraid to tally up how much it would have cost to develop my game if I hadn't done it myself.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48498564&postcount=489

you kind of quoted the wrong guy...

Dammit not again. I shouldn't be allowed to edit quotes

I just found a very important post from a member of the developers that he explain with details how hard it is to create a characters in general and the reason why it cost so much

They released another character:

image

Just to update an exciting new update the Lab Zero Team decided to make:

From the Indiegogo site:

"The response to the Patron Saint tier has been nothing short of amazing. So to reward everyone's efforts, we've opted to add an all-new "bonus" stage to Skullgirls, completely independent of any stage/story mode goals.

This is an early, very rough concept of the new River King Casino stage. We wanted to show you the entire stage creation process, from rough sketches to final execution. Michiru Yamane has also agreed to let us post work-in-progress versions of this stage's music, so look forward to that!

A lot could change before now and release, but wanted to show you where we imagined all these new NPCs will be hanging out - a swanky casino!

Bonus Stage: River King Casino!"

image

SO if you are one of the lucky ones that decided to put your background NPC character in Skullgirls [I think there are 24 of them], then you are honored to have your personal stage ^^

Cheers to the funders of this awesome game!!!!

Couldn't they just do a rerelease with a move nerfed? Like Skullgirls Punchy edition?

That should give them the money they need. Capcom pulls it all the time.

$250k? Sounds like propaganda.

They're are properly trying to squeeze out as much money they can so that they won't have to spend as much money on a port. If this is the case, I expect a proper PC port with 360 controller compatibility.

RaikuFA:
Couldn't they just do a rerelease with a move nerfed? Like Skullgirls Punchy edition?

That should give them the money they need. Capcom pulls it all the time.

Yeah, maybe, but Lab Zero isn't Capcom. That why they ask their fans to help them with their problem they have.

Well I decided to get back into Skullgirls. I forgot how much fun it was playing as Peacock. Heck, I was able to beat Marie within three tries with her instead of spending an hour like last time.

Back on topic, I've noticed how large Big Band was in comparison to other characters in the game. Sorta makes me wonder if the developers will alter the animations of the characters when using grab moves on him. Seems kinda obvious, I just can't help but wonder what Cerebella or Peacock will do when grabbing him.

SweetShark:

RaikuFA:
Couldn't they just do a rerelease with a move nerfed? Like Skullgirls Punchy edition?

That should give them the money they need. Capcom pulls it all the time.

Yeah, maybe, but Lab Zero isn't Capcom. That why they ask their fans to help them with their problem they have.

Yeah but thats how fighting games make their money, by rereleasing the same game over and over again. And the people that love them buy them.

RaikuFA:

SweetShark:

RaikuFA:
Couldn't they just do a rerelease with a move nerfed? Like Skullgirls Punchy edition?

That should give them the money they need. Capcom pulls it all the time.

Yeah, maybe, but Lab Zero isn't Capcom. That why they ask their fans to help them with their problem they have.

Yeah but thats how fighting games make their money, by rereleasing the same game over and over again. And the people that love them buy them.

Not me I must say for myself. I always buy one "version" of the same game. Except of course the new version have many new characters to offer. Ironically enough, a good version of Street Fighters 4 is the second one "Super Street Fighter IV". However they released the same title 3-4 times...........at least they didn't reach the titles Street Fighter 2 had.....or Guilty Gear 2........MY GOD Guilty Gear 2!!!!!! How many games Guilty Gear 2 have?!?!?!?! I only play one and I don't even remember the version I played!!!!FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF**********************cccccccccccCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SweetShark:

RaikuFA:

SweetShark:

Yeah, maybe, but Lab Zero isn't Capcom. That why they ask their fans to help them with their problem they have.

Yeah but thats how fighting games make their money, by rereleasing the same game over and over again. And the people that love them buy them.

Not me I must say for myself. I always buy one "version" of the same game. Except of course the new version have many new characters to offer. Ironically enough, a good version of Street Fighters 4 is the second one "Super Street Fighter IV". However they released the same title 3-4 times...........at least they didn't reach the titles Street Fighter 2 had.....or Guilty Gear 2........MY GOD Guilty Gear 2!!!!!! How many games Guilty Gear 2 have?!?!?!?! I only play one and I don't even remember the version I played!!!!FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF**********************cccccccccccCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're one of thne rare ones. If they did remake it though they'd better make that tutorial better. Helpful for beginers my ass.

Just to update this Thread with some interesting old sketches from the original artist of the Skullgirl game.
Some of them are from the sexy character Deep Violet and some other interesting characters that maybe will see them in Skullgirls 2:


Yep, the artist love the design of D. Violet alot XD

Anyway, Here are the other interesting characters we maybe see:

So I have some great news to share!!!

It seems we have two well known funders that they decided to create their own NPC character:

The first are Matt & Woolie that gave 2.500 dollars!!!
So, I expect for a NPC character to have the well-known badass

AAAAAaaaaaannnddddddddddd.....the other that gave 1000 dollar is....

Oh! Here are the exclusive footage of Matt donating his money to one of the Developers of the Skullgirls game:

And her e also without joking the truth about that:

image

SweetShark:
Just to update this Thread with some interesting old sketches from the original artist of the Skullgirl game.
Some of them are from the sexy character Deep Violet and some other interesting characters that maybe will see them in Skullgirls 2:


Yep, the artist love the design of D. Violet alot XD

Anyway, Here are the other interesting characters we maybe see:

That last picture NEEDS to happen. NOW!

Seriously, I'd play the shit out of such a fighter. I'd get a console just to play it! (and some other titles)

TheKasp:

SweetShark:
Just to update this Thread with some interesting old sketches from the original artist of the Skullgirl game.
Some of them are from the sexy character Deep Violet and some other interesting characters that maybe will see them in Skullgirls 2:


Yep, the artist love the design of D. Violet alot XD

Anyway, Here are the other interesting characters we maybe see:

That last picture NEEDS to happen. NOW!

Seriously, I'd play the shit out of such a fighter. I'd get a console just to play it! (and some other titles)

Well, you always can at least pay 2.500 dollars in Indiegogo project and have one of the characters as an NPC to the background. With a different name of course.

For another update I have to offer:

I learned another NPC character they will be part of the Skullgirls:


Sanshee, the mascot character from the site http://sanshee.com/


[b]Cupcake-tan from the site http://manga.clone-army.org/ [AWSOME SITE btw!!!]

Some very good for the Skullgirls Indiegogo Project:

-The voice actor for the second DLC character will be Rich Brown. He is known to be the announcement voice of http://www.GameTrailers.com.

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-Three different voices for the characters Double, Ms. Fortune and Parasoul:

Republican Double

[The manly voice XD]

Robo-Fortune

Also it seems the develepers have interest to create a skin like how Robo-Ky was in Guilty Gear XX. F*CKING RADICAL!!!

Salty Sailor Parsoul

It seems in this voice, Parasoul will cursing A LOT!!!

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-Alpha Footage Animation of the first DLC character Squigly:

-------------------------

See you next time ^^

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