Is it just me... or does the Xbox one violate EU laws?

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Most noticably the "allways on" kinect that watches you and monitors/records whatever you do or say as long as the xbox one is turned on?

As far as I know it is illegal to build something like that into your console without giving the user the option to turn this so called "feature" off in the EU (or atleast in germany)

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

Somehow I doubt that the Xbox one will be able to be sold as is in the EU without atleast enabling to shut down the kinect camera. The used games blockade though might be still pushed through since no one would have to guts or the money to actually sue them because of their unfair business practices that go clearly against the EU judging of used game sales.

Can you not just unplug the Kinect?
I don't think people have the right to sell anything that you bought, there are laws on certain items although I don't know if games fall under those laws. I don't think they actually break laws, just really piss people off.

Watching the presentation i got the impression Microsoft forgot Euorope existed in the firt place. I think its possible Microsoft didn't bother to check the law of every European country.

According to the information at hand the kinect is a MUST.. it is mandatory that it is allways active when the xbox one is used. Atleast if you believe the reports.

Also what you think is right and whats the actual law differ greatly. We have used car sales, we have private auctions, we have markets where people can sell their used items. And all that is legal. Everything you bought and are the owner of you are allowed to sell to someone else. That is the actual situation. You only get in trouble if you make copies of the original and selling those.

Also as i said before: not many months ago the EU made a judgement that generaly speaking a Customer is entitled to reselling his online bought games just.. and this is important.. as if he owned a physical copy of said game.

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to read out of this where the EU stands in terms of pre owned game sales. For them a disk and the data on it can be resold, just not copied.

But pre owned games aside, the 24/7 spying cam of the kinect makes me scratch my head more then anything else.

The best thing to do would be to put some tape over the Kinect. Or turn it around. But if they are the only two options then I think Microsoft have gone soft in the head (Bad pun laugh).
I like my 360, but this Xbox one is not doing a lot to win me over. I buy pre-owned games, because I can afford them, if I can't well, I may have to look to Sony.

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

Tom_green_day:
Can you not just unplug the Kinect?
I don't think people have the right to sell anything that you bought, there are laws on certain items although I don't know if games fall under those laws. I don't think they actually break laws, just really piss people off.

You can not. The XboxOne will not function if the Kinect isn't plugged in.

Tom_green_day:
Can you not just unplug the Kinect?
I don't think people have the right to sell anything that you bought, there are laws on certain items although I don't know if games fall under those laws. I don't think they actually break laws, just really piss people off.

Oh, the Kinect has to stay plugged in for the console to work now. No, I don't understand why either.

If I wanted a surveillance camera in my house, I would have bought and installed one if I had the money. I really hope the EU does something about this, Microsoft is going to get a real kick in the balls if the EU does.

Well, the presentation itself seemed like they mostly talked about stuff hardly anyone outside USA gives a damn about. As huge of a deal as NFL Fantasy Football is over there, it's not exactly a selling point in the rest of the world, for example...

Funnily enough most people probably have an uncovered webcam facing them right now from their laptops, potentially recording everything they do without their consent.

Personally I solve the problem with blue tack. Covers the lens, easily and cleanly removed when you want to use it.

It's very much illegal. And most of it's advertized TV features don't work in Europe anyway. It's a console designed for the US, I guess.

Hero in a half shell:
Funnily enough most people probably have an uncovered webcam facing them right now from their laptops, potentially recording everything they do without their consent.

Personally I solve the problem with blue tack. Covers the lens, easily and cleanly removed when you want to use it.

I highly doubt your laptop turns the webcam on automatically.. and even if.. it has the function to turn it off.

Something the Xbone wont have...

And what will you do about it recording audio?

Karadalis:
The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

You can say this about a lot of things, phones, tablets, smartphones, some TVs, (My TV has a motion control like Kinect anyway and yes its still shit) laptops and even cars.

So many things have devices that can see you, hear you and report your location and any that connect to the internet or a network of some type can be hacked. The Xbone has a lot of problems but being spied on is either a non issue or just another device on the list at worst.

Karadalis:

Hero in a half shell:
Funnily enough most people probably have an uncovered webcam facing them right now from their laptops, potentially recording everything they do without their consent.

Personally I solve the problem with blue tack. Covers the lens, easily and cleanly removed when you want to use it.

I highly doubt your laptop turns the webcam on automatically.. and even if.. it has the function to turn it off.

Something the Xbone wont have...

And what will you do about it recording audio?

It can happen: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8523807.stm
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/rat-breeders-meet-the-men-who-spy-on-women-through-their-webcams/

And audio? I dunno. I think inwardly? I don't use Skype or anything, always have headplones in, and this laptop is in my room so it's only me in here, All anyone would get is multiple hours of power metal and small snippets of me cursing while playing Battlefield, so unless my bank accounts' secret answer is "Bloody OP Helis" I think I'm safe.

Hero in a half shell:

And audio? I dunno. I think inwardly? I don't use Skype or anything, always have headplones in, and this laptop is in my room so it's only me in here, All anyone would get is multiple hours of power metal and small snippets of me cursing while playing Battlefield, so unless my bank accounts' secret answer is "Bloody OP Helis" I think I'm safe.

Butt hat's just the "It doesn't affect me, so it's okay" logic. Why would people have to take extra steps to protect their privacy/delicate information?

J Tyran:

Karadalis:
The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

You can say this about a lot of things, phones, tablets, smartphones, some TVs, (My TV has a motion control like Kinect anyway and yes its still shit) laptops and even cars.

So many things have devices that can see you, hear you and report your location and any that connect to the internet or a network of some type can be hacked. The Xbone has a lot of problems but being spied on is either a non issue or just another device on the list at worst.

And all these devices have the option to shut the recording down. But if you want to use your xbone.. you cannot shut down the kinect part that keeps recording both visual and audio... aslong as you use the xbox.

My phone? I can turn off the camera. My laptop? Ditto. Furthermore both will not passively record any conversations that i have with other people... the xbone will.

See the difference now?

Vegosiux:

Hero in a half shell:

=snip-

Butt hat's just the "It doesn't affect me, so it's okay" logic. Why would people have to take extra steps to protect their privacy/delicate information?

Oh, don't get me wrong, including a camera and microphone in the Xbox without the ability to turn them off or cover them is stupid, and it will almost certainly lead to hackers exploiting it for whatever reasons. I was just mentioning that a lot of us also have uncovered webcams which are essentially the same thing, yet it's never bothered us before (although it's slightly different to a Kinect which will most likely be set up to have a very clear view of a central room in your house.)

Karadalis:
The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

i think ive seen the odd horror movie with this premise as well, now that would be a messed up headline

"killer stalks and murders family with the help of game console"

Karadalis:

J Tyran:

Karadalis:
The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

You can say this about a lot of things, phones, tablets, smartphones, some TVs, (My TV has a motion control like Kinect anyway and yes its still shit) laptops and even cars.

So many things have devices that can see you, hear you and report your location and any that connect to the internet or a network of some type can be hacked. The Xbone has a lot of problems but being spied on is either a non issue or just another device on the list at worst.

And all these devices have the option to shut the recording down. But if you want to use your xbone.. you cannot shut down the kinect part that keeps recording both visual and audio... aslong as you use the xbox.

My phone? I can turn off the camera. My laptop? Ditto. Furthermore both will not passively record any conversations that i have with other people... the xbone will.

See the difference now?

Because if the device is hacked the hacker can turn it on? Short of physically disconnecting microphones and cameras turning them off achieves little. Do you go through a devices options every 20 seconds or less to check they are not on? Can you even reliably tell if they are on or off? What happens if the hacker turns them on but leaves the notification that they off in place?

So again either a non issue or another device on the list. Phones can passively record conversations so I don't know where you got the idea that they can't from, not only can conversations or data transferred by a phone be tapped they act as a portable microphone that can record and transmit conversations that happen around (after all most phones have speakerphone capability) them they can transmit images and in some cases video too. Worse still turning it off will not stop it either, removing the battery is the only way because they can listen and transmit passively and even be turned on remotely by the mobile service provider. Its unlikely a hacker would have most of the options available to say the authorities as they are only possible with the cooperation of the network provider but its possible to hack a phone over wifi and get control of the operating system.

J Tyran:

So again either a non issue or another device on the list.

Why should we be okay with more devices being added to the list, though? I get what you're saying, but I don't understand this logic that a problem is a non-issue just by the virtue of not being the only one of its kind.

I feel like Microsoft got the logic from Transformers 2

America is the world.

I feel bad for my own country now.

Vegosiux:

J Tyran:

So again either a non issue or another device on the list.

Why should we be okay with more devices being added to the list, though? I get what you're saying, but I don't understand this logic that a problem is a non-issue just by the virtue of not being the only one of its kind.

Privacy itself isn't a non issue, anything but and I am referring paranoia of "being spied on" by the Kinect as a non issue. I think that not wanting a Xbone because they are paranoid of it spying on them is a bit silly when you consider how many devices we invite into our lives that can (and do) compromise our privacy, many of them do a much better job if it too. The only reason it isn't really a none issue is how secure the Xbone and its software are, if its particularly vulnerable its more likely to be used instead of another device.

I even did a quick google but I could not find any data about how many people unplug their Kinect from the Xbox 360 every time they are not using it. No way to tell but Kinect could already be used that way and most people do not unplug the Kinect sensor and put it away. What about devices like the Nintendo 3DS? Thats a camera and microphone that you carry around with, wouldn't that be a greater privacy breech if it was hacked?

What about the Wii U with its camera and microphone that are "turned on" all the time (after all they are in the controller), noone got upset about that. Thats what I mean when I say non issue, loads off stuff can already do what the Xbone can do even just counting gaming devices. If that upsets someone they should already be upset and avoiding these devices

Karadalis:
And all these devices have the option to shut the recording down. But if you want to use your xbone.. you cannot shut down the kinect part that keeps recording both visual and audio... aslong as you use the xbox.

My phone? I can turn off the camera. My laptop? Ditto. Furthermore both will not passively record any conversations that i have with other people... the xbone will.

See the difference now?

As J Tyran said you actually cannot. There is lots of malware that can turn on a webcam but hide any indication it has done so. You're probably thinking "I can turn off the little lamp next to the lens" - that may as well leave it on if that's the case. Want "turning it off" capability? Tape it over. Or fry/dismantle it, if you're not going to use it. If it's a separate webcam, unplug it when not used. As for microphones...that's even harder - frying them is probably the best option, then just buy an external one. Though if you really wish, you can keep a very close eye on network connections and traffic your PC has. If it is engaged in data tranfer a lot of the time, then it's going to be really annoying to sort through everything. I'd suggest monitoring it through the router, though - you might not want to trust your PC if it's compromised. And you cannot guarantee it's not.

Phones? Oh, you mean the thingie that transmits your location at all times? Like, seriously - even if you don't have GPRS actively running and wireless also turned off, you know the technology to triangulate your location exists from before smartphones, right? It's not precise but apply some extra analysis (match the approximate locations over a period of time - after you move your approximate speed and direction can be determined thus narrowing down where you are) and voila. And can you guarantee the mic is off? How can you be sure? They've been some rumours of, I believe, the FBI getting access (either having or wanting to have) to passive phone tapping. Whatcha gonna do against that?

But let's have some FUN - RFID tags. They are everywhere - the thingies are widespread, pretty much undetectable (easily, at least) and can transmit info. Not a lot, the passive RFID tags don't get a lot of range but it's just enough. They are in the products you buy (why the alarm goes off if somebody tries to leave without paying), in various ID cards (if you can use it to open a door or access a service - bingo) even in your passport. By themselves they aren't really a threat. But if you carry enough, you would have a unique RFID fingerprint you leave everywhere while you haul all of them with you. Now, it's not really that much of an issue either...but remember how I mentioned shops? Every time you go in, you pass by a gate that gets all this info off you. Twice, in fact - when you enter and when you leave. Maybe more depending on the store. Pass by enough of these and you can be tracked and your movement habits recorded, analysed, and predicted pretty reliably. How to stop them? Microwave - for about 5-10 seconds, fries them right off. Well, als they stop working, duh, so might not be a good idea to do with cards you need. But there are sleeves blocking magnetic waves specifically made for cards. As a bonus, that means that nobody can clone your card. Otherwise it can be done literally without you knowing or suspecing a thing - it requires no contact, nothing really suspicious - somebody waving a little gizmo about a dozen centimetres from the pocket you keep the card/wallet can capture the tag and that's it. Card printers are readily available, cloning an RFID transmission is pretty trivial.

Anyway, is the Xbox really going to record everything? Or is this just paranoia kicking in? I haven't watched the reveal, haven't pursued any news, dunno if the information you present is real or imagined.

Well Microsoft is no stranger to breaking EU laws that's for sure.
*referencing the many cases that Microsoft has been brought before an EU court*
But from the reveal one could simply take that Microsoft forgot that other countries besides the United States exists and that's a huge issue they are gonna have, well one of the huge issues that they have right now.

Karadalis:
I highly doubt your laptop turns the webcam on automatically.. and even if.. it has the function to turn it off.

Something the Xbone wont have...

There's been reports for years that if they can find a way onto the computer then hackers have been able to turn laptop webcams on remotely - they've even been able to turn the webcam on but leave the associated "active" LED turned off so people don't get suspicious.

That said though, it's an even bigger problem in a device like the Xbone, with a webcam that not only needs to be connected and turned on for the system to work, but also seems to need to be connected to the internet at all times so you can't even protect yourself by turning it off. And I agree absolutely, once it exists, someone will find a way to hack it...

Neronium:
Well Microsoft is no stranger to breaking EU laws that's for sure.
*referencing the many cases that Microsoft has been brought before an EU court*
But from the reveal one could simply take that Microsoft forgot that other countries besides the United States exists and that's a huge issue they are gonna have, well one of the huge issues that they have right now.

What other problems? Oh man you got me excited.

From what I read earlier isn't the Kinect a bit more than just an audio/visual sensor?

Now if you want some bad situations that hackers could cause consider that Xbox live, not being content with just games strives to become a multimedia platform, is capable of providing porn. Good way to embarrass or maybe blackmail people if one was inclined to do that.

Grach:

Neronium:
Well Microsoft is no stranger to breaking EU laws that's for sure.
*referencing the many cases that Microsoft has been brought before an EU court*
But from the reveal one could simply take that Microsoft forgot that other countries besides the United States exists and that's a huge issue they are gonna have, well one of the huge issues that they have right now.

What other problems? Oh man you got me excited.

Well mainly everything that has come out when it comes to information about the Xbone has just been one problem after another. Plus since apparently Microsoft cloned Adam Orth before he got fired we get things like this from other executives:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.408672-Microsoft-Exec-If-Youre-Backwards-Compatible-Youre-Really-Backwards

Karadalis:
Also as i said before: not many months ago the EU made a judgement that generaly speaking a Customer is entitled to reselling his online bought games just.. and this is important.. as if he owned a physical copy of said game.

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to read out of this where the EU stands in terms of pre owned game sales. For them a disk and the data on it can be resold, just not copied.

But pre owned games aside, the 24/7 spying cam of the kinect makes me scratch my head more then anything else.

Oh come on with the Big Brother paranoia...

Anyway that law was everything the europeans on the Steam forums talked about last year, Steam still hasn't created a reselling tool, has it? Don't think it's working out too well.

No one's stopping you from selling a game in the xbox anyway, we're not sure how expensive the fee will be.

Karadalis:
Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

It seems you're talking about Usedsoft v. Oracle. It did state that any software license can be sold by its owner, making even license agreements that limit sales a moot point. However, this is a verdict restricting itself to software licenses. Services like Steam are exempt, because they sell a 'subscription' if you will, to download and play the game. Besides that, there is some discussion whether or not things like 'online passes' can be effected by this verdict. (Personally I think they could be, but I guess that's a different discussion all together)

Now the Microsoft reveals so far suggest linking a game to an account through a code or whatever. In this way it seems to resemble Steam. Should this be the case this construction would most likely circumvent the consequences of this verdict by not being a software license.

Karadalis:
The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

You know what that reminds me of? Mom's Homestyle X-Cube 360:
image
Which also allowed Mom to spy on its users and recorded conversations.... creepy, isn't it? Especially as the episode was apparently written in 2010.

wombat_of_war:

Karadalis:
The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

i think ive seen the odd horror movie with this premise as well, now that would be a messed up headline

"killer stalks and murders family with the help of game console"

The media would have a field day with this and somehow blame gaming as a general evil over the actual issue of the XBone being an idiotic piece of machinery that made it all possible.

They'll just slap a disable button buried 10,000 layers deep into the settings interface.

Neronium:
Well mainly everything that has come out when it comes to information about the Xbone has just been one problem after another. Plus since apparently Microsoft cloned Adam Orth before he got fired we get things like this from other executives:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.408672-Microsoft-Exec-If-Youre-Backwards-Compatible-Youre-Really-Backwards

Just saw that on the escapist's frontpage. Great, just great. Never mind that this'll have a bunch of complications on the EU, a lot of people will have problems with the always on Kinect camera and microphone, it won't sell well (initially) in South America because of its starting catalogue. Problems, problems.

Looks like the PS4 will start strong this time, as long as the WiiU sits with it's mediocre catalogue.

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