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Muckraker  Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007     | |
Staff Emeritus  Posts: 1124 Joined: 7 Jul 2006     |
You forgot another "F": Final |
Muckraker Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 |
Lol I get it. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 634 Joined: 13 Jul 2006   | Being in the West, you are isolated somewhat from the immense teeming oceans of excrement that constitute roughly 80-90% all games, with a uniform global distribution. You can see the American crap just fine because you're so close to it, but why would the Japanese want to send you their crap? The cost of exporting a game is so great that only the cream of the crap ever gets sent across the Pacific. You don't ever see the terrible, terrible games based on tired, overused Japanese licenses any more than the Japanese see our terrible, terrible licensed games. Without a steady diet of the culture of a nation - and I mean real culture, the banal suburban-equivalent workaday world, not just those aspects of pop culture they choose to sell to foreigners - it is difficult to appreciate just how much of what seems fresh and original over here is just an expression of a different culture's cliché. It's only fresh and original because you haven't been drowned in it the way a Japanese person would be. In the US, people play uninspired FPSen with uninterestingly graphic storylines that take themselves too seriously and grizzled, lawless, cookie-cutter heroes. In Japan, people play uninspired RPGs with uninterestingly melodramatic storylines that take themselves too seriously and androgynous, angsty, cookie-cutter heroes. The stuff that makes it across the Pacific - in either direction - is the stuff that reminds us why these overused clichés are overused in the first place. You want a great Western game released in the past year, that's not a shooter, not a sports game, not a licensed game, not focused on realism, made by someone with a passion for it? I can think of six: Defcon, Supreme Commander, God of War 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Overlord, and all those Sam & Max episodes they've been making. Maybe you don't like all six of those. I know I don't. But they exist, they're high-quality, and they don't touch your hated Three R's. If you can get over your aversion to the first-person viewpoint, you can add S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Bioshock, Metroid Prime 3, and most recently Team Fortress 2, and while there are many explosions in these, I'd hardly call any of those senseless. And that's not even scratching the surface of the tip of the indie and freeware games iceberg. So really, what you've got here is an unfair comparison. But if it's sales you're complaining about, what you'll find is that cliché sells well everywhere. |
Muckraker Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 | Bongo Bill I like your view on this subject and I respect that, but the games you suggested to me arent helping. Most of them are war games which means more shooting and killing. I liked God of War 2, but that also had more killing, which I dont need to have fun. Lord of the Rings is Game based of a book licence. Overlord was cool too but I prefer to play Pikmin. At least in Metroid prime 3, they mixed things up in the First person genre(not to mention having the best control for a FPS to date) And just like Not all Americans play FPS, not all Japanese play RPG. I am saying that the Japanese market has more variety than the American Market. One of my favorite series is Phoenix Wright, which would have never been made here. So yeah its not really unfair |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 634 Joined: 13 Jul 2006 | Ah, LOTRO is a licensed game, isn't it? Caught me there. But really, if you're going to look at the state of Japanese games through rose-tinted glasses, at the very least you could do the same for the Americans and Europeans. |
Paperboy  Posts: 46 Joined: 20 Sep 2007  | I wouldn't look to the PC/Console for variety. They go with what sells and those tried and true platforms are not as big a risk taker as newer platforms can afford to be. I see your point that the variety is lacking. A brief look at new games coming out on those platforms really proves your point. I mean you could go with Atlantis, though that isn't very new and I heard it wasn't too good. There are other platforms out there or you could look to older games for the variety you seek. Some relatively new mobile games that might pique your interest: Petz, Bubble Bash, Brain Challenge, Platinum Sodoku? While Petz has a touch of realism, there is no violence or sports connected to it. You are just basically raising a virtual pet. Bubble Bash takes place on an island but is basically just a block breaking game. Brain Game is puzzles and Sodoku is a math game. Some variety there, all made by a western company. A couple of new ones coming out but I can't disclose them, yet. |
News Room Contributor  Posts: 8070 Joined: 12 Nov 2002     | Also, STALKER was Ukrainian as I recall, so I'm not sure if it constitutes a "Western" game in the strictest sense of the word. I think Bill is onto something, too. Being in the US, you have a much greater opportunity to see the shit cranked out by American developers, whereas imports tend to be filtered and appear at a generally higher level of quality as a result. I often say I've grown to prefer Euro games to American (Shadowgrounds, Painkiller, Max Payne, the X-Universe series, Divine Divinity, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, STALKER (which obviously proves my definition of "Euro" a little loose) and so forth) but I don't have to put up with the presumably-huge pile of crapola they crank out just like we do. I agree that the vast majority of games released these days are garbage (EA Sports anything and the various GTA-inspired gangsta nonsense are two prime examples) but I don't think it's a uniquely American trait. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 117 Joined: 29 Aug 2007  | I think this article clearly misses some important points. For starters, making games is a business to nearly everybody involved. Yes they can be art, but Japan and the West, as has been pointed out, mine the same genres relentlessly. In the US we definitely benefit from cherry-picked Japanese titles that are sent over here with market research to back up the release. This usually ends up bringing a host of unique titles and has gone a long way towards creating games like Guitar Hero and the upcoming Rock Band. I think for all the Halos and Half-Life titles, there is a Viva Pinata out there somewhere. Jade Empire, Baldurs gate and Kotor were all great examples of first class Western RPG games and they definitely helped advance the genre. Imagine a Final fantasy game with a branching storyline where you decide some of the action. I cannot think of many Japanese games that allow you the freedom of Oblivion or even Fable. Codemaster's Overlord was also an awesome game. Let us also not forget about games like Populus, the upcoming Spore, the ultima games which did more for brining RPGs into the mainstream than anything else. It is very easy to look at the crappy licensed games which are major sellers in this country and romanticize the Japanese gaming market, but remember, unless you live in Japan and are an active part of that market, how can you really marginalize Western games as derivative and Japanese titles as unique and fresh? |
Staff Emeritus Posts: 1124 Joined: 7 Jul 2006 |
To be clear, this isn't an article. |
Muckraker  Posts: 326 Joined: 21 Aug 2006  |
For that matter, imagine a Final Fantasy game that doesn't entail hours upon hours of grinding on mobs. I'm kind of the inverse of the original poster, actually. My preferences skew strongly toward Western games by developers like BioWare and Blizzard, and If you don't want to kill stuff, it isn't just Western games you need to be avoiding -- after all, those smooshed goombas don't just get up and walk away. ;) |
Anonymous Source Posts: 2 Joined: 3 Oct 2007  |
Lets get some minute details straightened out. Any and every Final Fantasy (minus the MMO) can be beaten without "Hours and hours of grinding," much less grinding at all. Then you go on to quote Blizzard as being one of your favorite developers? Play World of Warcraft much? Your reasoning here seems backwards to me. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 71 Joined: 1 Aug 2007 | Here's the thing. You're listing only CONSOLE games, which pretty much (outside a FEW games) suck hard. Especially american console games. So what you should be doing is checking out all the 90s american PC games, THATS where its at. Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, Wizardry 8, X-Com, Dungeon Keeper, StarCraft, Half-Life, Master of Magic, Fantasy General and MANY more. If you havent played all of these, go do so. But you're right, if you limit yourself to console games, then yes, American games suck. I'd like to add two more points: "Freedom(able to develop any game without or minimal publisher interference)" If you value freedom - compare American RPGs to Japanese RPGs. Japanese ones are completely linear typically, whereas American ones (Ultima 6/7, Arcanum, Fallout) are completely nonlinear. And also, it is indeed the publishers who cause games to suck most of the time. I have friends who've worked in the industry and they say it is heartbreaking how the publishers crush games before they get anywere off the ground. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 1 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 | Hengst2404: That would be Final Fantasy X-2, then... These games reflect demographics rather than anything else- Western games are tailored for a Xbox/Gaming Rig audience- i.e male, American, 16-30. Japanese games are aimed for a different demographic. And publishers don't cause games to suck- they choose ones that they think will sell, based on prior performance, and tend to be conservative as they don't want to end up bankrupt. This often ends up backfiring, of course, with a dozen near-future Unreal 3 engine-a-likes being released in the same quarter, but that's a different issue. Not that I actually disagree, I also think Western games are rather too narrowly focussed and use non-linearity as a substitute for actual storytelling, but the grass isn't super-green anywhere else if you look at it closely... |
Paperboy Posts: 15 Joined: 23 Sep 2007 | I can agree. There are very few Western game I want to play at all, and those are mostly RPGs or some kind of sim/world building or puzzle game. It seems in the West, Graphics == Fun. Like the Crysis engine and DX 10. Many people tell me I HAVE to get Vista because it supports DX10 and I ask "So what" and they give me some excerpt about graphics and Crysis and crap. Still, not one mention of gameplay comes out of their mouth. It saddens me when I am NOT a gamer because I'm not into grpahics. I don't care for FPS game or another copy paste war game. Or the fact that I love the Wii and find the PS3 lacking. I'm suddenly not a gamer.... So in the end, I'll agree to say that I find the Asian games more appealing to me than the American/European ones. Not only that...Asian game tend to give me more fanservice for women... Just look at the guys of Granado Espada! |
Muckraker Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 | I am impressed by the reactions and views by all of you. After reading these, I have a few points i want to clarify. Yes I am only considering console games for this topic. not saying that they are insignificant, but its a different genre if you ask me. I grew up on console games anyways. I have no problem if my games have linearity in them, as long as it isnt boring. I am still playing Resident Evil 4 and that game is linear. As long as the game dosent tell me what to do specifically or is like the King Kong game based of the craptacular movie then I am good. I am pretty sure American developers can come up with awesome ideas for existing genres and even new ones. Its unfortunate that most publishers like to take fewer bets on cool ideas. Ever noticed that Japanese companies do well, if not better with American licences. I mean look at Capcom. They mad those awesome beat-em-ups with licenses like the Punisher and Alien vs. Predator. Now those were fun. Konami did well with Ninja Turtles and the X-men. Hell when Capcom had the Marvel licence, they came together and created the Marvel vs. Capcom series. That was epic. And what did Marvel do? They left Capcom and went with *shudders* EA and created Marvel Nemesis. That was a great game wasnt it?(I am being sarcastic if you are confused) Thats all for now |
Muckraker Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 | From Maverynthia Tell me about it.. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 925 Joined: 3 Oct 2007  | Alright lets get a few things straight Crysis is a whole lot deeper than you make it out to be Zera it just looks good doing it. I mean by your standards a game has to look like utter crap to be fun. Also the people that are producing Kane and Lynch are the same people that did the hit man series, that i though was much more innovative than most games at the time, and the game makes you an awesome anti-hero. Also you seem to misunderstand the point of FPS games. Its not always about killing people, FPS can just immerse you better and turn you into the hero or anti-hero. P.S. Jade Empire was one of the biggest turds in history and I had to hire someone to exorcise it from my hard drive. But I loved KOTOR more than most of my immediate family so I do still like bioware. |
Muckraker Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 |
As far how the game looks to me, its all about the art style. Honestly good art and design trumps graphics. Not saying both would hurt though, just get the gameplay and fun down first. As for First-person games, it not my fault that 98% of them are shooters. I love the first person idea, just apply it to something different like adventure. It worked wonders for Metroid Prime, which was actually developed by A texas based studio, Retro Studios. |
Muckraker Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 | Oh and I also forgot to mention Square-Enix with Disney to make Kingdom Hearts. Name a good American made Disney game. |
Muckraker Posts: 326 Joined: 21 Aug 2006 |
Really? Because I've gotten nearly to the end of FFVI and FFVII, two of the most lauded titles in the franchise, only to find that my party was too weak to win the final battle. I hadn't been grinding. Actually, the only Japanese RPG I've ever played that didn't force me to grind in order to complete the game at some point was Chrono Trigger. [Strategy RPGs like the Fire Emblem series excepted.]
Well, yes. Blizzard made WarCraft II, StarCraft, WarCraft III, and their expansions, which are some of my favourite games. I have no interest in MMOs -- I have to be very interested in a game's story to bother with grinding -- but when Blizzard announces a non-MMO game, I pay attention. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 70 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 | I agree - sometimes I just want to play something relaxing or just fun. This is one of the reasons I'm very pleased with XBOX Live Arcade. The games are cheap and a way to play some really off beat games i.e. Space Giraffe. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 925 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 | Correct me if im wrong but didn't metroid prime involve shooting of some kind. I mean the one of Samus' arms is a weapon. C'mon. Also not all Japanese RPG Rock even the one brought over here. I mean cmon hasnt anyone played Blue Dragon. I'd rather make out with a shotgun then go through that game again, its just repetitive B.S. |
Games Editor  Posts: 4271 Joined: 20 Dec 2005    |
Play FFXI much? The amount of grinding is much less in the Blizzard game. Oh, and let's not forget EVERY OTHER GAME THEY MADE that isn't a MMORPG. >_>
Weren't the SNES/Genesis Lion King and Aladdin games made by Western developers? Those games were awesome. |
Beat Writer Posts: 171 Joined: 27 Sep 2007  |
Every game outside of the puzzle genre has you killing something. As for freedom, try TES. And nearly every game you see from them is a sequal. I don't want Generic Turn-Based RPG With Sudo-Anime Art And A Tentacle Porn Scene XXXVII. But whatever. Maybe that's just me. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 3 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 | I'm going to have to say Bongo Bill is more on-target than anyone else in this thread, except that I submit that a lot of the crap from Japan DOES make it over here these days. To complain about rockets and war and such as Western cliches may not be wrong, but to say that Japan avoids them is utterly disingenuous. Zera, you just said you're playing RE4. Japanese-made, but utterly Western in design. It's practically an FPS, featuring rockets, guns, gore, monsters, and violence on a level potentially unmatched on the Gamecube except maybe Killer7 (another violent and gruesome Japanese game). Yes, RE4 is awesome, but it also conforms to many of the criteria you set out as negatives. I just got back from Japan last week. Consider their top 5 selling games while I was there: 1 - Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII - Yet another milking of the tired FFVII cow, telling an "untold" part of the story that really didn't need to be told in the first place, otherwise it probably would have been part of FFVII, no? Heavily violent, and featuring the angsty cookie-cutter androgynes mentioned by Bongo Bill. 2 - Another Century's Episode 3 - Yet another "Gundam/Macross/Mazinger/every other giant robot franchise Bandai owns" crossover game, in which angsty cookie-cutter anime characters whine about how much they don't want to fight and then blow the absolute crap out of each other. This series has been going for well on 20 years now, because originality isn't exactly something in demand over there. 3 - Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles DS - Another Final Fantasy game. Shocking. Trend developing yet? 4 - Bladestorm - Yet another Dynasty Warriors clone, but this time based on Western history. Specifically, the Hundred Year War. No rockets, but certainly violence, the killing of thousands of people per level, and yet another war setting. 5 - Samurai Warriors 2: Xtreme Legends - Yet another expansion to yet another Dynasty Warriors clone, based on Japanese history. Violence, war, killing of thousands, etc. So yeah, I'm not seeing this Shangri-La of originality and fun fantasy you claim Japan to be. It's steeped in the same level of crap the Western market is, it's just different crap. Hell, this list is an improvement over recent years, when the top sellers tended to be still-picture anime dating novels for the PS2. Both sides of the cultural fence produce winners and losers, and there really is no way of saying "these guys make better games than these guys," because the differences are stylistic at best and imaginary at worst. Play what you like, but trying to justify your personal tastes with sweeping generalizations about cultural design preferences is pretty silly. |
Staff Emeritus Posts: 1124 Joined: 7 Jul 2006 |
Toon Town? American McGee's Alice was as based on the movie as it was on the book, too. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 10 Joined: 13 Sep 2007 |
Woah, what's wrong with senseless killing, realism, and rights? You attribute "fun" to Japanese games which sounds to me more like you couldn't think of any other description for it and neglected some awesome Western games that do get that formula right. Oblivion, Fallout, Battle For Middle Earth, FEAR, Bioshock, Dawn of War, Baldur's Gate, World in Conflict, Warcraft III, Empire At War, Two Worlds (which kinda sucked but was still okay), Rainbow Six (tactical shooters), MOH:Airborne Assault, Company of Heroes, and that's just games that are on my desktop. All of them are great, original in significant ways, and most of them have good multiplayer. Throw away that PS3 or 360 and come back to where the great games are: PC. If you pressed me for a description of each "sides" games, I'd counter you by saying that from what I've found, Japanese games are plot-oriented, while Western games focus in on gameplay. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 10 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 | Seems to me like you have a bit of a Japanese fetish for games. Not that it's bad, but you are very much overgeneralizing the American and Japanese game developers. Oh, and Japanese games contain PLENTY of senseless killing. See any Dynasty Warriors game or RPG. What sense is there in killing the same creature 5 million times to ding to the next level? About as much sense as killing 5 million nazis to reach the end boss. Also, as an addendum, I'd like to point out that there is a HUGE indie developer market in both countries. Gish, Alien Hominid, Cave Story, Warning Forever, and many others provide fresh gameplay FOR FREE. And as for "Freedom" in game development, the Japanese are just as much bound as we are. See: The MASSIVE Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest franchises. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 3 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 |
KH is a Square action RPG with occasional Disney cameos. It's hardly a fair comparison. But Castle of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse beats the hell out of any other Disney game in existence. It was made by Sega of America. Its sequel, Land of Illusion, was no slouch, either. Then there's Mickey Mania, which was good, if punishingly difficult. American made once again. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 8 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 | Mickey Mania was a fantastic game. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 925 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 | Wow i remember Mickey Mania, that was my first game I ever bought and probably one of the only games where I gave Mickey the finger |
Anonymous Source Posts: 10 Joined: 3 Oct 2007 |
More like Black Isle, BioWare, and Bethesda, actually. |
Muckraker Posts: 290 Joined: 12 Sep 2007 |
Kingdom Hearts is the exact opposite of what you said. If you played it you would know. Ps. dont even think about insulting Odin Sphere unless you actually played it. That is videogame art at its finest form. Oh and that Aladdin game for the SNES was from Capcom |
Paperboy  Posts: 19 Joined: 4 Oct 2007 | I saw this discussion and I decided to create an account just to replay to it. I'm on the side of people who prefer Western or at least non-Japanese games, personally. I don't see why the discussion has been so limited to Western shooters and Japanese RPGs, however, I see a number of excellent games from both sides on my shelf alone that are neither. From Japan, Jet Set Radio Future, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Katamari Damacy, Ninja Gaiden. From not-Japan, SSX, Burnout, XIII, Kameo, and Hulk: Ultimate Destruction (a fantastic and underrated game). They're fantastic examples of even large developers sidestepping the dark, gritty, shooter cliches and the generic angsty anime characters and dull gameplay of, well, most Japanese games and I wouldn't trade them for much of anything. (I recently did a great used-game cleansing so my examples are limited, but there are plenty more.) |
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Now dont judge me by the title alone. Just hear me out. I work at a Gamestop. Do you know our best sellers are?
Guess?
Sport games
GTA
Halo 3
Scarface(?!?)
25 to Life( oh come on!)
50 cent Bulletproof(this is sad)
This just saddens me. Looking at future releases didnt help either.
Kane and Lynch
Haze
Crysis
Call of duty 4
Unreal tournament 3
GTA4
etc
Where is the variety? I dont want to shoot something! I dont want the game to be realistic! Since when do games have to be realistic to be awesome and fun.
WHERE IS THE FUN!?!
Sorry I went on a rant there, but I had to say something. and I am pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks this way. I am no way baised on games. Dont get me wrong. Its just how can you blame me. It seems that American developers either:
cant think of anything original or creative
publishers dont want to take risks
and thats just sad. I was watching Bonus Round on Gametrailers.com(check it out, but dont read the comments) and one of them came up with this:
The 3 F's of Japanese games
Fun
Fantasy
Freedom(able to develop any game without or minimal publisher interference)
The 3 R's of Western games
Rockets(explosions, senseless killings)
Realism
Rights(Licences, movie games, sport games)
If you think about, this pretty much sums it all up
I am not saying Western games suck all together, its just now I dont see any that interest me.
I just cant believe games like Madden sell like crazy, while creative and FUN games like Psychonauts and Odin Sphere gather dust( they are such good games)