After a visit to Kotaku.com I spotted the following article issued by a British...uhhh...journalist if you can call her that, about how men who play video games are putting off families and marriage becuase of a new adolescent culture of gamers who cant seem to accept growing up. And if this was more well thought out then Id be willing to be more receptive but this sounds more like an ignorant and misinformed hate speech fueled by hearsay and pure assumption that all gamers are the same and even worse that all gamers are male. She even cites gaming as a less mature activity than (and I quote) "I assumed that, after adolescence, young men put away childish things and played amateur football, got amusingly drunk, instigated punch-ups, watched Big Brother or ineffectually pursued women" of course getting into fights and getting drunk is far more mature and adult than playing video games.

Here is the article.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article3304266.ece

Some people say that articles like this are written only to attract the attention of angry gamers and gain more attention. I dont mind this personally becuase I think gamers are one of the most unified groups today despite all the fanboy baiting and all that whenever some hack comes along threatening our medium of choice then the gap is qiuckly bridged. Some have suggested this article is satirical, but if this is the case then it is poorly wriiten and poorly executed.

My summary : Fuck this ignorant bitch.

Ah, the ever-present wail of "Men are immature if they don't marry and have children", but now with a focus on gaming. I'm so sorry I don't watch television, get involved in fights, drink alcohol, abuse drugs, smoke, go out on the town or do any of the things that she thinks we're supposed to do.

This sort of article always appears on websites like that one. Ranting at each one won't change a damn thing, although it *is* amusing to see her get what's coming to her: Righteous fury straight down her throat, hopefully causing her to choke to death on her own bile.

Happily the comments on the article, on the whole, do a fine job of intelligently rebutting her narrow minded agenda. I have a fondness for the honesty of the OP's summary though: 'Fuck this ignorant bitch.'

I found what I'd like to call 'the root' of the article.

"Perhaps there's nothing to complain of about this man-teen era, unless you're a woman with a ticking biological clock, waiting for someone - anyone - to grow up."

Roughly translated, "I can't find a husband and it's clearly not my fault because that isn't possible, what with me being so open minded and all."

How dare men not fall into the exact groups we should according to this one woman?!
How dare we find enjoyment in anything but drinking massive amounts of beer, having kids, punching (or tackleing) other people and going into the woods and shooting at everything not wearing blaze orange?!

The OP was right, but not quite. Let's ignore this ignorant bitch, instead of fuck her. Because, looking at her insistance that all men should go out and slavishly worship at the vagina of women worldwide (ineffectually, mind you) and have loads of kids, a good screw might be just what she needs to shut the hell up. Any guys willing to take one for the team?
...anyone?

Anyone at all?

I'll need to see a pic first.

OneHP:
I found what I'd like to call 'the root' of the article.

"Perhaps there's nothing to complain of about this man-teen era, unless you're a woman with a ticking biological clock, waiting for someone - anyone - to grow up."

Roughly translated, "I can't find a husband and it's clearly not my fault because that isn't possible, what with me being so open minded and all."

I agree completly, lets say everything about her article is true and men are taking longer to grow up, the problem in my opinion would'nt be with the men although I personally think abandoning the culture of "grrr....weights...boobies...football" as the acceptable norm is a signifigant step forward for men as a gender but seriously, it clearly appears to be this womans personal prejudices that are getting in the way of her finding a man, she seems to want a stereotypical knight in armor who likes monster trucks to sweep her off her feet.

Again, My summary : No man gives a shit about any womans bioligical clock, if say they do....they are fucking lying.

...seriously when you are talking about that your husband is probably thinking about what haircut he could have a year from now.

It's worse than grown men building Hornby 00-gauge train sets in their attics, or constructing battles with painted toy soldiers. Only a few men did that, in secret, but now everyone is celebrating their inner geek.

SHE INSULTED MY HORDES OF CHAOS ARMY. BURN HER WITH THE PURGING FIRE!
And what's wrong with my inner geek? (16 here)

Ah, yes, there's nothing more sad or reprehensible than someone not doing what a semi-popular steriotype that some part of society expects of them. I'm sure that the world's police forces will have to downsize because they dont have any young men to arrest for being naughtily drunk; the temporary slump in the purchasing of artificialy-rare compressed carbon will send the world economy spiraling downwards, and all mannner of other evils will be loosed upon an unsuspecting world.

Males have always been hobbyists. We pick something we enjoy and we...enjoy it. we learn about it. we become proficient in it. we breath it. and this article seems to say that we should instantly put our joys aside and focus on pointless drinking, fighting, and chasing women?

(well, the last part is something I wish I was better at, and certainly a semi-worthwhile persuit, if you can find a girl worth chasing. but thats the key part: worth. and, willing to aknowledge your existance.)

Something about this article suggests that the writer feels threatened. If men are no longer acting like testosterone-fuled morons, how can she get them to buy her jewelry?

Gah, better people than I have already rebutted this ignorant, stodgy peice of e-trash. It's a shame that it's not in print, otherwise I would blow my nose on it. but printing it out to do this would be a waste of paper, ink, and electricity

Haliwali:
It's worse than grown men building Hornby 00-gauge train sets in their attics, or constructing battles with painted toy soldiers. Only a few men did that, in secret, but now everyone is celebrating their inner geek.

SHE INSULTED MY HORDES OF CHAOS ARMY. BURN HER WITH THE PURGING FIRE!
And what's wrong with my inner geek? (16 here)

I forgot about that, she does'nt know who shes dealing with, Warhammer 40K fanboys will firebomb your house.

I'll get to it right after Ive painted my new Eldar deathstalker sqaudron!

Don't forget this article too. In this one, we're not even Teens.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-hymowitz_27edi.ART0.State.Edition1.378ca5b.html

- J

Gigantor:
Happily the comments on the article, on the whole, do a fine job of intelligently rebutting her narrow minded agenda. I have a fondness for the honesty of the OP's summary though: 'Fuck this ignorant bitch.'

That's exactly the problem though.

She's not getting any. So she's lashing out at things she sees as distracting the male population from their true task of pandering to her needs for attention and validation and being told that she doesnn't look fat, ugly, or old.

tiredinnuendo:
Don't forget this article too. In this one, we're not even Teens.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-hymowitz_27edi.ART0.State.Edition1.378ca5b.html

- J

Interesting let me break down her opening statement so we can understand it a little better.

Ignorant Journalist 2:
It's 1965, and you're a 26-year-old white guy. You have a factory job, or maybe you work for an insurance broker. Either way, you're married, probably have been for a few years now; you met your wife in high school, where she was in your sister's class. You've already got one kid, with another on the way. For now, you're renting an apartment in your parents' two-family house, but you're saving up for a three-bedroom ranch house in the next town. Yup, you're an adult!

It's 1965, and you're a 26-year-old white guy because black people were'nt invented in 1965. You have a factory job you hate becuase you failed to get a real education or maybe you were lucky and forced your way into your dad's insurance company. Either way you're married, because your you met your wife in high school and got her pregnant so naturally you did the right thing and married her ass however you could'nt keep your dick in your pants and you have another kid on the way. For now, you're renting an apartment in your parents' two-family house becuase lord knows that minimum wage job is'nt enough to pay the bills without daddy's help, but you're saving up for a three-bedroom ranch house in the next town but you know this will take so long that by the time you get your foot in the door your spirit has been broken. You have 3 kids, a wife who hates you, a shitty job, a rundown house. Yup, you're an adult!

Ignorant Journalist 2:
Now meet the 21st-century you, also 26. You've finished college and work in a cubicle in a large Chicago financial-services firm. You live in an apartment with a few single guy friends. In your spare time, you play basketball with your buddies, download the latest indie songs from iTunes, have some fun with the Xbox 360, take a leisurely shower, massage some product into your hair and face - and then it's off to bars and parties, where you meet, and often bed, girls of widely varied hues and sizes. Wife? Kids? House? Are you kidding?

Now meet the 21st-century you, also 26. You've finished college and work in a cubicle in a large Chicago financial-services firm getting paid plenty becuase you were patient and worked hard. You live in an apartment with a few single guy friends becuase god forbid you should have no support or freinds when you are in your first home. In your spare time, you play basketball with your buddies, download the latest indie songs from iTunes, have some fun with the Xbox 360, take a leisurely shower, massage some product into your hair and face - and then it's off to bars and parties, where you meet, and often bed, girls of widely varied hues and sizes but obviously its not their fault for participating you are clearly victimizing these poor girls. Wife? Kids? House? Are you Kidding? No, becuase maybe you should wait before you make life long commitments without a second thought simply becuase its what the norm was 40 years ago.

She feels that video games are stealing men away from the women. its not true, its shown us that we can have fun that does not need to include them. now if some of them would play games they like or even better spend some time with us on the ones we like (i had a gf who could kick my ass at halo, while embarsing it was a great way for us to spend sometime togher)
and even ask a few questions, like did you beat the level you were trying for? or something like that will get us to talk to them

so its not all our fault, a lot of the blame falls of people like this writing articals that make women not like us gaming that keep them from accepting that we want to do this

Ok, that bitch "journalist" just set me into rant mode. You have a problem with it, drop her ass in a volcano and I may calm down.

First, who the fuck is she to say video gaming is childish or that consoles are toys. Did someone put this dumb bitch in charge of rating how fulfilling and/or mature interests are. No! So get her the hell off that high horse, and maybe get the thing to take her from behind a couple times... My guess is that lil miss Muir there is fat, ugly as sin, and rejected by every man she approaches. She probably looks like a hybrid of L Ron Hubbard and the Numa Numa kid, with a dash of Robert Deniro for chest hair. In her desperation she probably drew conclusions that she can't get a man because Video Games stole them all, and thus blames the Playstation for making men into children.

To pick on a hobby like painting miniatures or collecting a train set and allude that such interests are for the immature, shows just how little she knows about, well, anything. I guess a man isn't a man unless his only interests after work are television and beer, with an occasional right hook to the wife's eye for leaving the kitchen. Yep, that's a real man, lets all get drunk and beat our wives, and then watch brain-numbing drek like Big Brother. Because we ALL know Big Brother makes men manly... Sitting around a TV watching people with no life gives the viewers life meaning. So what about building a model/RC airplane, childish or manly? What about other hobbies like restoring vintage cars? A car is just a really big Toy isn't it?

ANY hobby a man has is mature, because the act of following a hobby belies a patience and dedication children cannot master. Adults BUILD model cars, children PLAY with toy cars. Grown men don't just lay out some tracks on the carpet and sit there watching a train go around, they build a complete diorama for their train set, terrain and buildings, bridges, tunnels. The train is just a small and insignificant part, but the complete works is a monument to their patience and skill. And a good hobby is one a father can share with his child, you don't "Share" in the "hobby" of mindless TV watching, but teaching your boy to make a ship in a bottle is wonderful. And video games are in their own way a good hobby, or at the least a less mind-numbing activity than just watching a TV. It takes as much skill and dedication to be proficient in a video game as it does to build a model ship.

Well I'm running out of steam, someone get the damn whore a Gigolo or drop her arse in the ocean because the only man mature enough for her would be either a waste of skin or a professional football player.

While we manly boys are ranting here, I'd be interested in a FEMALE gamers opinion on the subject. How are YOU perceived for your hobbies? Are you single? Do you also live in the US? Care to meet me sometime? :)
In short what do you think about this?

I like to think of myself as a Man-Beast and I'm not opposed to the less attractive moniker Man-Bat. But Man-Teen? Me thinks not.

This is why I don't plan on marrying.

OH WAIT! NOW I CEASE TO EXIST! *pop*

Arg, not this insidious reactionary again.

I gladly join in the chorus cheering on the inner nerd in all of us.

The author of the article claims that this is backlash from feminism because of men feeling insecure when women are becoming empowered. There might be some truth in that but i think that this is being caused by a different aspect of feminism: Breaking free of gender roles.

Probably the biggest issue in modern feminism is breaking free from the gender roles, women don't want to stay home, clean, cook, raise kids and give it to the husband whenever he wants it. They want to achieve their own goals and want to be independent. But what about the man? Isn't he allowed to break free from his role? Isn't the man allowed to live with his male buddies and play videogames on his spare time? Feminism says it doesn't want hulkish brutes, but why are women complaining about guys spending their days playing Halo 3 instead of settling down? Not everyone wants to spend their lives getting a fabulous career and a big fancy house. Not everyone wants to be a traditional "mature man".

Fortunately it seems that we live in a world where it's possible to be Peter Pan, where boys don't need to grow up. I guess things like responsibility must be learned some day, but playtime I hope will never disappear with age.

The real question, not addressed by either of these articles, is the cause for delayed "adulthood"

I would argue that this prolonged adolescence is really the result of continued growing equality between the sexes since women entered the job force. Simply put, women couldn't afford to live on their own 40-50 years ago so marrying was a necessary step. As women have moved closer to achieving financial parity with men, they are afforded the opportunity to delay starting a family for a much longer period of time. Therefore we see a longer period in which men can be sexually aware single individuals, not unlike an adolescent. All this is to say that there is no reason to lament any of these changes - they are a condition unique to the most economically advanced nations in the world, and are an indicator of the privileged life a certain group of Americans enjoys.

Another factor not being considered in either of those articles is that media consumption has increased exponentially over the same time period, such that how we spend leisure time is fundamentally different from the way it was spent 50 years ago.

Finally, both articles willfully ignore some of the painful realities that don't fit their romanticized view of "men". They forget that their longing for the "adult male" is a idealized archetype born from extreme gender inequality. They ignore that perhaps this new "man child" is an indicator of how far we've come in gender relations; that this is in fact the marker of a brighter more equal future between the sexes.

Khell_Sennet:
First, who the fuck is she to say video gaming is childish or that consoles are toys. Did someone put this dumb bitch in charge of rating how fulfilling and/or mature interests are. No! So get her the hell off that high horse, and maybe get the thing to take her from behind a couple times... My guess is that lil miss Muir there is fat, ugly as sin, and rejected by every man she approaches. She probably looks like a hybrid of L Ron Hubbard and the Numa Numa kid, with a dash of Robert Deniro for chest hair. In her desperation she probably drew conclusions that she can't get a man because Video Games stole them all, and thus blames the Playstation for making men into children.

Whoa. WHOA. You disagree with this woman, so you're going to say that she deserves graphic humiliating violence? Way to prove her point. You've just done far more to convince me of her argument than she ever could. And the "a woman disapproves of my hobby so she must be ugly" argument is pretty disgusting too. If you really care about this, tone down the PCP. There is never an excuse for this kind of hate.

GloatingSwine:

That's exactly the problem though.

She's not getting any. So she's lashing out at things she sees as distracting the male population from their true task of pandering to her needs for attention and validation and being told that she doesnn't look fat, ugly, or old.

Lol! I just think it's funny how when she eavesdrops on those two men, she is instantly turned off by the fact they are playing GoW. She instantly judges. One of them could work out for 45 minutes a day and have rippling abs to drive it home on her every night but she doesn't give them the time of day. Oh well, 2 way street blah blah blah. I just think this comment was full of win.

So wait, she's basically saying "Men who play video games or do 'geeky' things are sad because they enjoy doing something different to the norm."

Does that make Free-runners sad? What about men who Fence? How about other hobbies that aren't about body power?

She seems to have drawn a very distinct line between what she thinks is acceptable for men to do and what she calls "immature".

My opinion: It's my hobby, I enjoy it and if you don't like me because of that then it's your problem, not mine.

P.M.

Possum-Man:
So wait, she's basically saying "Men who play video games or do 'geeky' things are sad because they enjoy doing something different to the norm."

Does that make Free-runners sad? What about men who Fence? How about other hobbies that aren't about body power?

She seems to have drawn a very distinct line between what she thinks is acceptable for men to do and what she calls "immature".

My opinion: It's my hobby, I enjoy it and if you don't like me because of that then it's your problem, not mine.

P.M.

Its pretty clear shes stuck in some sort of time warp where men do nothing but work out and talk about boobies and monster trucks....yeah, monster trucks!

In response to Hoffman's post:

On a related note, I was listening to 1Up Yours, which I realize is not a bastian of progressive gaming minds, and the panel members had a similarly mysoginistic reaction towards the Hymowitz article.

It was played off as locker room jesting, but their insults were similar in that they derided the writer's looks and insinuated she was a man-hating spinster. However I still don't think this proves her argument; instead, this reaction speaks more about the nature of the enthusiast videogame community than the larger idea of the, get ready for it, Manolescent, their articles address. I won't go into the mysognistic tendencies of the gaming community as that is another topic entirely.

amusingly both my parents, who are from that older generation where people "grew up" earlier, advised me not to jump into marraige. of course, they both got married in their twenties to two other people, and both their first marraiges went belly up, i guess because they were too mature.

so i blame them. maybe they should have consulted this genius, as she obviously knows who we all should be and what we should be doing.

breed breed breed! there's not enough people in the world! pump out them babies! sheesh

Tendo, point made. I was also exercising some subtlety in that comment... the hate speech does more to convince me of Hymowitz's point because I found the whole article rather inane and forgettable on its own, ie I doubt it would have convinced anyone of much of anything all by itself. But paired with some of the jeering? It gives her criticism credence that it may not deserve by itself. Because I think what she's talking about is the culture around games. I certainly found Khell's post pretty amazingly misogynistic, but in a very incoherently adolescent way. I think what Hymowitz is aiming at is a fusion of the two -- otherwise she would be talking about some of the positive aspects of childhood. If it didn't result in bad behavior I don't think the article would have even what small point it has.

Some of the Kotaku comments are quite interesting and I think are on the mark, regarding the subject in general. People, including women, are putting off childbearing and family-rearing for a whole host of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with videogames and many of which don't even reflect negatively on society -- attending college, an early career focus, higher cost of living. So the argument itself is certainly specious on its face, but it's an opinion column, and I didn't see anyone commenting on the site agreeing with her. There actually are issues perceived by women/spouses about partners who spend too much time playing games, and she is hitting the core of that button in a very provocative (and counterproductive) way.

As far as misogyny goes, do you think there's actually more of it in the gaming community than there is on the internet in general? My experience is that the internet is just generally more full of people willing to spout hate because the consequences are less immediate -- they have a degree of anonymity to fuel what is basically a cowardly form of aggression that they would never act on in person, whether it's directed toward another gender, another race, another culture, what-have-you. Plain old fashioned xenophobia. I think if I thought the gaming community had more misogynists in it than other modern subcultures I'd probably be bothered by that and want to look into it more.

Haliwali:
I'll need to see a pic first.

You asked for it...
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00150/kate_Muir_150057a.jpg

Jesus. Christ. This woman can be safely ignored, as the pedestal from which she delivers her ignorant speech is made out of cardboard and Scotch tape.

She first implies that gaming is a childish hobby, when even Mr. Thompson knows that there are games out there which children really shouldn't be playing. She ruins her credibility further by suggesting that some mature hobbies, ones in which families wouldn't be ignored in such a villainous credulous way, are drinking, fighting, chasing after the women and (shudder) watching Big Brother.

I should probably read the article, and I should also avoid cussing and quoting Penny Arcade in one sentence, but the truth is I wouldn't waste the poop it would take to shit on this.

I read the article, expecting to be offended in some manner... but to be honest, I think she has some valid points. The hardcore video gaming lifestyle is, in some manner, delaying other opportunities (and what the author views as societal obligations -- but that's another topic) in life.

Maybe if I wasn't already a husband and a father, I'd take some offense to it, but honestly (and as she puts it) it's no different than the guy who is consumed by model trains. And really... so what?

From my experience, I've found that people only get offended when the comments carry a little truth to them. Seriously... there is a blatantly immature side to gaming, whether most gamers will admit it or not. Personally, I can't wait until games mature to the point where they don't cater at all to children and older teens. Gears of War might be cool, but it's childish... [ in my best Stuart Smalley impersonation ] and that's okay. ;-)

ErinHoffman:
Tendo, point made. I was also exercising some subtlety in that comment... the hate speech does more to convince me of Hymowitz's point because I found the whole article rather inane and forgettable on its own, ie I doubt it would have convinced anyone of much of anything all by itself. But paired with some of the jeering? It gives her criticism credence that it may not deserve by itself.

And this isn't hate speech:

"Man-teens sitting before their kiddy consoles like huge manatees"?

Yeah, there's a lot of ugliness on this page. However, what do you expect in terms of reaction to an article so full itself of ugliness?

Copter400:

Haliwali:
I'll need to see a pic first.

You asked for it...
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00150/kate_Muir_150057a.jpg

OK, never mind.

Echolocating:
I read the article, expecting to be offended in some manner... but to be honest, I think she has some valid points. The hardcore video gaming lifestyle is, in some manner, delaying other opportunities (and what the author views as societal obligations -- but that's another topic) in life.

Thing is she's not talking about the hardcore video gaming lifestyle. I mean she writes: "One banker dad they knew was always on Age of Empires and Civilization." She talking about *all* video gaming. That to me says the author thinks that it is impossible that there will come a time that "games mature to the point where they don't cater at all to children and older teens." I agree with you that there are some valid points to be made, but, they're certainly not being made in this article.

tiredinnuendo:
Don't forget this article too. In this one, we're not even Teens.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-hymowitz_27edi.ART0.State.Edition1.378ca5b.html

- J

Interesting... so in theory, my brother who has six children (All to the same woman) should be the pinacle of maturity with a full understanding of responsibility and what it is to be an adult. As opposed to the thirty something jobless layabout who does nothing he is?

Maybe he did it wrong.