Copter400:

Haliwali:
I'll need to see a pic first.

You asked for it...
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00150/kate_Muir_150057a.jpg

Id hit it.

With what exactly is something Ive yet to decide.

Haliwali:
While we manly boys are ranting here, I'd be interested in a FEMALE gamers opinion on the subject. How are YOU perceived for your hobbies? Are you single? Do you also live in the US? Care to meet me sometime? :)
In short what do you think about this?

Of course I gotta stick my dainty powdered nose into this shit-storm and take a big whiff. Ah, smells like...victory. Or maybe not.

First of all, despite all evidence to the contrary, it appears that I am actually a boy. Again. My peenus iz pastede on yay! I even have a hard time finding girls who will sleep with my geeky ass. Except for the chromosomal thing and the Women's Studies degree, I am one of you! Apparently.

Second of all, I'm so tired of having to point out this basic tenet of usenet/mail list/bbs debate: Ad hominem attacks are the lowest form of argument, second only to grammar flames. Seriously guys, when some right-wing cockwaffle decided to open his second asshole and crap out the assertion that Mass Effect was interactive gonzo porn, you were outraged and rightly so. There were assaults on his intelligence, his journalistic integrity *snortcoughchoke*, and the standard wear and tear on everyone's W, T, and F keys. However, there was not an avalanche of, "Fucking fucker is a fucking cross-eyed flipper-baby who's just jealous because he can't play video games! And, plus, also, he's all frustrated because he can't ever masturbate with his stupid flipper hands, and so he doesn't want anybody watching porn! He should die! Somebody should stick a plasma grenade up his ass! He should be teabagged until he suffocates!"

This is a standard pattern, Guys piss people off because they say something stupid and get called dumbasses (because they are) and and told not to talk about things they are totally ignorant about. Women do the same and get called bitches (which is beside the point, since a woman can be dumb without being a bitch, and a bitch without being dumb), told they need to get laid (which in my opinion tends to make women MORE stupid with regard to men), and are figuratively threatened with physical violence, assault, and death.

If you object to what she said, then talk about what she said. Leave your opinions about her physical attractiveness and sex life out of it. Though I have to give you guys kudos on the absence of !!!!!1!!ELEVENTY!!!1 and CAPSLOCK OF RAGE.

Soooooo, anywayyyy, what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, this woman's complaint that video games are responsible for the extension of male adolescence (add that to the list of everything else they're responsible for, right?) OK, so, passing over the fact that the length of adolescence has been steadily increasing ever since the late 1700's, let's just note the fact that the advertising and marketing industries lovelovelove the unmarried, late adolescent and early adult male consumer and therefore have every interest in extending his economic availability as such, with or without the aid of the gaming console. In my other life, spent largely in the company of hippies, artists, slam poets, and yoga practitioners, I can tell you right now, whether it's Xbox, weed (er, "hemp"), Burning Man, or polyamory, the guys who are going to be Permanent Children are going to be Permanent Children.

So what's her problem? Well, a couple of things. First of all, she's bought into the idea that she's not complete without a man. Do not underestimate the strength of cultural enforcement behind this idea. Second of all, she's bought into the idea that she's incomplete without a child. Do not underestimate this one either. As a woman who has said no to both, I can tell you that even as a level 62 Queer and the with defense bonus applied from my Prestige Class Feminist, I still take damage on this. The only 100% immunity comes from acquiring a Husband (of at least Boyfriend) and Child.

But wait, isn't she supposed to be a strong, independant woman? Isn't she supposed to be a heroine and not a damsel in this game? Yep. Welcome to the Catch-22 of Modern Woman. If she decides to forgo the man-and-baby option, she will forever be subject to the attack that anything she does or says in challenge to just about anything will be written off as the frustrated bitterness of the old maid. Kinda like what just happened here. Toss in the message that the worst thing a woman can do to her child it raise him or her without a father-figure and the situation just keeps getting better.

So everyone and everything around her tells her that she can't be happy, or even morally and intellectually worthy without YOU, and YOU are still playing that goddamn Xbox! No wonder she's pissed. Not that I agree with her. I think it's perfectly possible to live happily without one or the other or both, if you are willing to take the bullshit from all sides and just suck it up. So she's either not aware that it's possible, or she's not willing to suck it up. She'd just rather complain about it. That's my problem with her.

Oh, geez, I almost forgot your question, Haliwali. The answer is I'm definitely considered a weirdo for my hobbies. In fact, I'm a little bit closeted about my gaming, which is nothing like hardcore compared to a lot of you guys, but is definitely beyond the range of all my female friends, now that my one gamer-ish friend has detoxed off her WoW addiction. But people have so many other reasons to think I'm weird, including the amount of money I spend on comic books and manga, the amount of time I spend watching anime, sci-fi, and martial arts movies, the fact that I have a motorcycle instead of a minivan. And yes, they do think it's an immature type of weirdness. And, you may find this interesting, they rather envy me for it.

So there's one more thing to consider - when presented with "gamer" minus all the cultural baggage of The Female/Male split, women seem to be a little envious at the sort of selfish freedom of it. I've played all evening, clear through the night, and into the next morning, and then blew off the laundry and cleaning the bathroon for an extended nap. A lot of women can't even imagine the luxury of that much time devoted to something that produces no material benefit. And that's kind of sad.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Thing is she's not talking about the hardcore video gaming lifestyle. I mean she writes: "One banker dad they knew was always on Age of Empires and Civilization." She talking about *all* video gaming. That to me says the author thinks that it is impossible that there will come a time that "games mature to the point where they don't cater at all to children and older teens." I agree with you that there are some valid points to be made, but, they're certainly not being made in this article.

Yeah, I'm probably giving that fucking bitch too much credit.

I kid. ;-)

mshcherbatskaya:
But people have so many other reasons to think I'm weird, including the amount of money I spend on comic books and manga, the amount of time I spend watching anime, sci-fi, and martial arts movies, the fact that I have a motorcycle instead of a minivan. And yes, they do think it's an immature type of weirdness.

One date... come on one date?

But really, why is there such a gap between male and female gamers? At least in my area (granted, not the greatest or most populated place in the world) the only girls who play games do so with their boyfriend or on their brother's system. WHERE ARE ALL THE GAMER-WOMEN-NERD-TEENS?!?!

OneHP:
I found what I'd like to call 'the root' of the article.

"Perhaps there's nothing to complain of about this man-teen era, unless you're a woman with a ticking biological clock, waiting for someone - anyone - to grow up."

Roughly translated, "I can't find a husband and it's clearly not my fault because that isn't possible, what with me being so open minded and all."

Amen! What a waste of your life... just sitting there waiting for the guy who'll fit exactly with your desires to wander into your lap.

Haliwali:

mshcherbatskaya:
But people have so many other reasons to think I'm weird, including the amount of money I spend on comic books and manga, the amount of time I spend watching anime, sci-fi, and martial arts movies, the fact that I have a motorcycle instead of a minivan.

One date... come on one date?

OK, go take a look at the birthdate on my profile. I assure you the year is accurate. Now ask yourself, "Do I wanna date my mom?" And then maybe ask the question, do I want to date your mom? Is she hot? If the answer to either one of these questions is yes, then maybe we can talk.

Haliwali:
But really, why is there such a gap between male and female gamers? ... WHERE ARE ALL THE GAMER-WOMEN-NERD-TEENS?!?!

Um, not to be obnoxious or anything, but you do realize that this is the total flipside to the article author's question, "Where are all the grown-up men?!?" right?

But to answer your question, you can find a large number of them over on Fandom_Wank, or in any Final Fantasy slashfic community.

I don't think the author can accept that there are men who really do not want to jump on the "marriage and kids" train. I don't think you can force a man to be a provider anymore than you can force a woman to be a homemaker. Some of these men are immature, but others are waiting until they're ready. Once a man has a wife and family, his previous life is effectively OVER. Every minute and dollar is now dedicated to providing for that family. In an age of such incredible economic uncertainty, that can be soul-crushing.

All I do is chop firewood and dig holes and hunt for food and raise barns (?) and procreate and eat big meals and other manly things, so I couldn't possible understand what she's getting at.

I married a gamer that is afraid to have kids because she thinks she'll be a bad mother. Score.

If I watched "Sex and the City," would that make me more grown up? What women really want is a man who has been trained to kill brain-hungry zombies, which is the definition of a true "gamer."

Welcome to expectation of society towards genders versus...expectation of society towards genders.
Trust me, 2 different things. One tells the women the build a career and for men to be understanding, listening and helping in the household...the other one tells the oldfashioned story; housekeeper and provider. I agree with mshcherbatskaya, it was spot-on.

While the article was very uninformed and by that, generally dumb, I can understand to a degree how she came to write it. On top of it, I find it VERY annoying when people start to comment on a womans looks, if they'd hit it, or her sexual life when she writes something we they don't agree with. As such, you're sending the message that women are inferior anyways...which may not be what you mean, but it's what you more or less say.

TheNecroswanson:
Woe to you, oh earth and sea. For the Devil sends the Beast with wrath, because he knows the time is short. Let him who hath understanding recon the number of the beast, for it is a man-teen number. It's number, is 360.

lol I went to a maiden concert a few days ago.

What got me angry about this article is that the title is "The dark ages". She is really biased and stupid. She clearly has no idea what shes on about, hasn't done any research and based her atricle on what she thinks about the issue. Is this sort of writing honestly good enough to be on the Times online.

Fire Daemon:
Is this sort of writing honestly good enough to be on the Times online.

Bah, since the Dirty Digger bought it out, it hasn't been the same.

mshcherbatskaya:

Haliwali:
But really, why is there such a gap between male and female gamers? ... WHERE ARE ALL THE GAMER-WOMEN-NERD-TEENS?!?!

Um, not to be obnoxious or anything, but you do realize that this is the total flipside to the article author's question, "Where are all the grown-up men?!?" right?

But to answer your question, you can find a large number of them over on Fandom_Wank, or in any Final Fantasy slashfic community.

That was kind of the point

I'm a 31 year old Architect, I love to travel, play music (I'm a drummer) and I also create scaled models as a hobby, I've been happly married with my beautiful whife (who loves video games) for 4 years. BUT I LOVE PLAYING VIDEO GAMES and I will play them with my kids just like I play with my whife. Everyone who knows me is aware of this and NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH IT; so, I'm happy :D.

"I assumed that, after adolescence, young men put away childish things and played amateur football, got amusingly drunk, instigated punch-ups, watched Big Brother or ineffectually pursued women"

And a woman should prefer men that indulge in these activities over gamer guys why? Because they're being mature? And here I thought being mature meant principally being responsible. Silly me.

It may interest you to know that as well as the lack of logical rigour in her writing and general statistical stupidity, she is also French.

Girlysprite:

While the article was very uninformed and by that, generally dumb, I can understand to a degree how she came to write it. On top of it, I find it VERY annoying when people start to comment on a womans looks, if they'd hit it, or her sexual life when she writes something we they don't agree with. As such, you're sending the message that women are inferior anyways...which may not be what you mean, but it's what you more or less say.

But then she wins either way, doesn't she?
If we react, it's because it hit a nerve.
If we don't react, it must be true.

She was the one who deliberately brought up the idea of wanting a man to give her children.

I'm reminded of IDT/INDT from the classroom blackboards, or is that something equally un-PC?

And let's face it, with most men we argue with, we agree whether we'd hit it or not. It's just that as part of the alleged RULERS OF THE WORLD, life pretty much sucks for us too. You don't need to be in a minority to be buried in shit.

After reading ALL, of this...I'm left thinking if maturity is a definitive term, or a relative term.

By this article's standards, my sister is quite mature. After all, she's got a kid and all. Regardless of the fact that she goes out and parties until 3 or 4 in the morning most weekends and some weekdays. Besides the fact that she drops in and out of college. Besides the fact that she basically survives off of government aid and my parent's help.

Yep, real mature, she is.

EDIT: capslock of rage...heh heh, good one.

The_root_of_all_evil:
It may interest you to know that as well as the lack of logical rigour in her writing and general statistical stupidity, she is also French.

Thank the lord!

My national pride has been restored.

The_root_of_all_evil:

Girlysprite:

...I find it VERY annoying when people start to comment on a womans looks, if they'd hit it, or her sexual life when she writes something we they don't agree with. As such, you're sending the message that women are inferior anyways...which may not be what you mean, but it's what you more or less say.

But then she wins either way, doesn't she?
If we react, it's because it hit a nerve.
If we don't react, it must be true.

I read the above several times and I honestly don't the the logic of what you are saying here. I'm not saying you are being illogical, I just really don't understand what you mean by this.

The_root_of_all_evil:

She was the one who deliberately brought up the idea of wanting a man to give her children.

Which is not the same as her saying she can't find a guy to "hit it." Finding someone to sleep with is probably something she can do, it's finding someone who will step up and raise children with her that she is apparently having problems with. She seems to think she is somehow entitled to a husband, which makes me want to lock her in a room with the next whiny fanboy who thinks he's entitled to a girlfriend.

The_root_of_all_evil:

I'm reminded of IDT/INDT from the classroom blackboards, or is that something equally un-PC?

I googled IDT/INDT and couldn't find an actual definition, and I've never heard of it before, so I can't tell you if it's PC or not. Probably not, is my guess.

The_root_of_all_evil:

And let's face it, with most men we argue with, we agree whether we'd hit it or not.

What? Wait! What?! Let me just double-check what you said there - with most men you argue with, you agree whether you'd hit it or not - so when when Kevin McCullough posted that bullshit about Mass Effect, you discussed his fuckability just like you did with the woman who wrote the article? Or are you saying that any two guys talking about a woman must at some point in the conversation determine whether or not they'd have sex with her? Because if you mean the first, dude, I'm totally bummed that I missed that part of the conversation, and if you mean the second, then wow, I'm not sure whether that is more insulting to women or to men.

The_root_of_all_evil:

It's just that as part of the alleged RULERS OF THE WORLD, life pretty much sucks for us too. You don't need to be in a minority to be buried in shit.

I would agree with that. Which is why I think feminism is not just for women. The way the gender divide works now, it kecks things up for everyone. Ultimately, feminism is (or should be, in my opinion) about making sure that everyone has the full range of options for pursuing happiness, which is why the sooner this sexist "Well, I disagree with her, but more importantly I wouldn't fuck her" mode of argument dies out, the sooner things start getting better for everyone.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Girlysprite:

While the article was very uninformed and by that, generally dumb, I can understand to a degree how she came to write it.

I can't--I don't understand how someone has heard of Age of Empires but not sperm banks. If her biological clock is ticking as she states and no one is willing to 'defuse' it, well, there are options. Last I checked you didn't need to be married to be fertile.

The only way a person writes an article like this is if they have absolutely no respect for the opposite gender. Seriously--imagine if a man wrote an article about women that complained about how none of them want to make babies for him. She basically reduces the male gender to a stud farm in this article.

Aside from pointing out that single motherhood is brutally difficult, even for the women I know who are doing it really well with lots of support, and she doesn't want to have to do that, I agree with you. To boil it down to a single word, I think her argument is sexist, and the fact that her frustration grows out of the double-bind placed on her by a sexist culture doesn't excuse that.

Also, any time someone starts hearkening back to the good old days (of which they have little or no experience), that immediately makes me question the basis of their whole line of reasoning right out of the gate. She seems to think things used to be better because why? Because it was easier to shame men into giving up their hobbies? That's ridiculous. Because in 1965 men used to spend more time with their families and be more involved in their children's lives? I'd like to know what alternate universe history she's pulling this from.

My advice to her - if the men around you are not satisfying your needs then, a.) reality check your needs, and b.) invest your time and energy some place else. No adult has ever actually "met the needs" of another adult. This is my firm belief. If you are lucky, you can build out of trust, affection, and shared goals a kind of symbiosis with another human being, who may or may not be your sex partner or the parent of your children. But "meeting each other's needs" - that's just mutual parasitism.

I plan on playing games every second of my free time after certain responsibilities such as jobs, my spouse, and children are well taken care of. To say that I'm immature for doing so is uninformed. Right now I'm using dictionary.com to learn how to spell because of games... and her accusations so saying games are useless toys for childish amusement purposes only has just been "refuted". What a guy does for fun shouldn't be used against him and his maturity. If a guy LARPS then good for him. That doesn't mean he lives in his moms basement, thats just a educated assumption. Whether or not I, a teen, doesn't gets another steady job, then a wife, and have kids, like a respectable citizen, is still up to debate but if I don't I'm mature enough not to blame that on video games.

Sniper_Zegai:
"I assumed that, after adolescence, young men put away childish things and played amateur football, got amusingly drunk, instigated punch-ups, watched Big Brother or ineffectually pursued women".

That's funny. One reason my wife doesn't mind me playing video games is that I'm not out playing football, or getting drunk, or fighting, or watching reality TV, or pursuing women in any manner whatsoever. (The other reason being she plays them as well.) And I'm certainly not delaying marriage or having kids; we've got grandkids older than some board members here.

The proper reaction to a woman like this writer is not violence. A simple "Oh G-d, you're one of those!" will suffice.

She probably collects ceramic cats.

I read an interesting article this day in a newspaper; When parents are older, their children tend to do better at schools en work. This is most likely because the parents have enough money, they are already past the career race, generally have more time to spend with the kids and have more experiences to share.

Downside is still that past the thirties, it gets harder to get a child as a women still. But when I read it I thought 'ah, there is this article disproven'

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Married motherhood ain't no picnic, either. Not to mention I think she suffers from the delusion that a lot of people who are obsessed with marriage do: the idea that once they get married everything will be okay forever and ever.

There are plenty of single mothers out there who were married to the father of their children at the time of conception. They're called 'first wives'.

Except for the ones called 'widows'.

Either that or they are women who decided that, for whatever reason, the husband was more of a burden than a helpmate. But yeah, I'm basically in agreement with you. She clearly believes that Marriage Will Make It All Better, and I'm betting her thoughts around that are largely economic, which I find both sad and mildly disgusting.

But it's no mystery where she gets this idea. I also know a lot of two-mother households, and every freakin' time they talk to anyone outside the gay community about their kids, it's all "What about the father? What about the father?" and no matter what they answer, it's just CHILDREERING UR DOIN IT WRONG.

Whatever. I can see the dynamic that lead this woman to think the way she does, but I've got no sympathy with it, none at all. I also know women who use a game console to babysit their kids, just like they use the TV or the DVD player to babysit their kids. I remember taking care of a neighbor's little boy - 4 years old, he had no functional language skills and he wasn't fully potty-trained, but he could operate every single electronic entertainment device I owned. So it's not a husband thing, it's a get-a-life thing. It's not a father thing, it's a raise your kids right thing.

Also, if I were a mom and as geeky as I am now, I have no doubt people would think I was fucking up my kid. How can I raise a kid when I don't behave like a grownup myself? (to kind of circle back to the original topic.) Certain things have been infantilized in our culture, like comics and games, that shouldn't be. That's just a fact.

If it's any consolation to anyone out there, the geek couples of my acquaintance are the happiest couples I know, because they share common enthusiasms, and because they can share these enthusiasms with their kids, it all works. My geeky cousin and her geeky husband take their kids to anime and sci-fi cons and they all have a great time together. It's the standard Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus marriages I know of that are utterly miserable.

werepossum:

She probably collects ceramic cats.

That's the best statement from this entire thread.

And what's with the entire "would/would not have sex with her"-talk? I'm a healthy, heterosexual male with regular hormonal functions, but when I'm with "the guys" we never talk like that. Did my gaming habit ruin my alpha-male-boasting gland without me noticing or something?

While I heartily disagree with her assessment that growing up entails just getting a family and home, and working in some dead-end factory job where you can build up a sweat and get an honest days' pay, I like the idea that there is a difference between perceived maturity levels.

I am currently at the University of Nottingham, UK doing a humanities degree, and have reached the ripe old age of 20. This, stereotypically, should lead you to the conclusion that I am out all night clubbing and getting drunk out of my skull, smoking weed, sleeping with every willing recepticle and foregoing my studies to go on protests against "monopolies" like Starbucks.

However, my hobbies are much more restrained. I have a couple of Warhammer armies, I DM for my gaming group, I have a 360 and a computer. I play mandolin, flute and guitar in a folk duo (obviously, not all at the same time). I brew my own ale and mead. I read a fair bit of philosophy and history in addition to doing most of the work for my course. I've started to do archery and scrimshaw (bone carving).

This dichotomy of interests between me and the norm is distinct, and there are times when I'm not at Isis' student night (ladies get in free if they're wearing school uniform) on a Wednesday evening, but am instead watching Hitchcock films and painting my miniatures and I wonder - am I still a kid?

All this standard "Growing Up" stuff I haven't done - I can count the amount of times I've had sex on my fingers and toes, I can only just about fill a bath-and-a-half with the amount of booze I've drunk, I've don't do drugs and I've gone out clubbing four times in my life.

I do wonder, who is more mature? Me, who prefers to stay in and create, or them, who prefer to go out and destroy.
The writer of that first article would say "Them", surely, because of the fact that the law states you can't go out drinking, shagging and dancing before the age of 16 or 18. Therefore, they're doing more "mature" things.

But, I sometimes look down on them and think that going frat-boy-crazy is nothing more than a futile and immature expression of the first taste of "freedom" most of these people get. The first time they're away from home, the first time they're not being judged by their parents. The first time they don't have to be up early for school. And they can't handle that freedom, and just drink and bang everything. I like to think that my reaction to that freedom - to take on new hobbies (mandolin, brewing, archery) - is much more mature than a stock hedonistic reflex.

Having said that, I occasionally get envious of them, deep down, for that careless confidence and disregard of consequences - and that envy makes me wish I could 'grow up' to be like them. I know it's all down to preferences and what you, as an individual, enjoy, but there is an uncomfortable feeling that what I'm doing is "wrong" and what they're doing is "right" because it's in the majority.

meh, she was probably blown off by here boyfriend the stupid bitch.

FaceInTheSand:

Having said that, I occasionally get envious of them, deep down, for that careless confidence and disregard of consequences - and that envy makes me wish I could 'grow up' to be like them. I know it's all down to preferences and what you, as an individual, enjoy, but there is an uncomfortable feeling that what I'm doing is "wrong" and what they're doing is "right" because it's in the majority.

This hit a cord with me, having a similar (Or almost identicle) experience. I see many of those people out drinking, smoking and 'laughing' and I can't understand why or how. The only time I'll drink is in social situations, and even then I'm reluctant, as my opinion of alchohol is "Tastes like piss"

Sometimes I'm left thinking that I'm missing something that they have in abundance.

Though a heavily romantic view from the other side of the grass, as then I think of the various problems because of these same things. Drink driving, attacks, binge drinking, alchohol poisoning. Which are rather big problems over here that people are still having trouble addressing.

Overall, I don't think maturity is found at the bottom of a bottle or how many times you can 'do the horizontal tango'

Woo, nerve hit. Let's make sure this doesn't get catty..

mshcherbatskaya:

The_root_of_all_evil:

But then she wins either way, doesn't she?
If we react, it's because it hit a nerve.
If we don't react, it must be true.

I read the above several times and I honestly don't the the logic of what you are saying here. I'm not saying you are being illogical, I just really don't understand what you mean by this.

The newspaper article is obviously fishing for controversy because controversy means more people reading papers; but if this is being put out to the general public.
If we respond to the article, then we've fallen for it.
If we don't respond to the article, then the uninformed will take the newspapers story as the truth.

Unfortunately this is an ongoing tactic in the media business at the moment. By constantly attacking weaker stereotypes it either causes more readers amongst them or pushes them further from the norm.

The_root_of_all_evil:

She was the one who deliberately brought up the idea of wanting a man to give her children.

mshcherbatskaya:

Which is not the same as her saying she can't find a guy to "hit it."

Frankly, reading some of the rest of her articles..

Kate Muir:

"Perfect young men in perfectly cut suits serve retired Parisians"
"Bathroom's been designed by a man," I say. "Shocking." We shake our heads in disgust, and I revert to being a Frenchwoman.

And most damning of all..

Kate Muir:

"You tell me," I say to the husband.

I'm sorry. So not only is he 'the husband', but you're looking around for men to sleep with?

mshcherbatskaya:

Finding someone to sleep with is probably something she can do, it's finding someone who will step up and raise children with her that she is apparently having problems with. She seems to think she is somehow entitled to a husband, which makes me want to lock her in a room with the next whiny fanboy who thinks he's entitled to a girlfriend.

Which is amusing because they're the ones she's complaining about.

The_root_of_all_evil:

I'm reminded of IDT/INDT from the classroom blackboards, or is that something equally un-PC?

I googled IDT/INDT and couldn't find an actual definition, and I've never heard of it before, so I can't tell you if it's PC or not. Probably not, is my guess.

IDT/INDT is a childish little game where someone writes a phrase like "Simmons is gay" with the collorary of If Destroyed, True and If Not Destroyed, True so there's a Catch 22 situation for the name calling that comes just as you're stuck trying to remove it from the blackboard (Blackboard was the thing I was most concerned about being un-PC, though most of the Africans/Asians I talk to laugh their heads off at that and wonder why whiteboard hasn't been banned, but I digress....)

The_root_of_all_evil:

And let's face it, with most men we argue with, we agree whether we'd hit it or not.

mshcherbatskaya:

What? Wait! What?! Let me just double-check what you said there - with most men you argue with, you agree whether you'd hit it or not - so when when Kevin McCullough posted that bullshit about Mass Effect, you discussed his fuckability just like you did with the woman who wrote the article?

Didn't actually see that quote, but if any appearance/sexuality comes into it, (And she is judging our biological compatability purely by game playing, so we're not stepping on any toes here) then there's obviously a discussion on that front. Most talk is of a childlike nature but it's a pecking order style. It's just that with most men, they're pig ugly anyway.
See any article mentioning Antonio Banderas for the "If I was, I would".
It's very similar to the feminine tittle tattle about her dress/shoes.

mshcherbatskaya:

Or are you saying that any two guys talking about a woman must at some point in the conversation determine whether or not they'd have sex with her?

Not must, just probably will do if appearance is mentioned.

mshcherbatskaya:

Because if you mean the first, dude, I'm totally bummed that I missed that part of the conversation,

I missed the whole thing so never mind.

mshcherbatskaya:

and if you mean the second, then wow, I'm not sure whether that is more insulting to women or to men.

Probably men because that's the way we have of reinforcing our own views on sexuality since the total media emasculation through articles like this. Given that viewpoint is shared by a lot of non-gamers and the idea of going straight into a marriage contract is terrifying for most teenagers; there's always been a healthy fantasy life in whether you'd "do her", despite any truth or reality to the statement.

The_root_of_all_evil:

It's just that as part of the alleged RULERS OF THE WORLD, life pretty much sucks for us too. You don't need to be in a minority to be buried in shit.

mshcherbatskaya:

I would agree with that. Which is why I think feminism is not just for women. The way the gender divide works now, it kecks things up for everyone.

Agree totally. Universal Sufferage (Thanks Sid Meier) would be far more useful for Humanity.

mshcherbatskaya:

Ultimately, feminism is (or should be, in my opinion) about making sure that everyone has the full range of options for pursuing happiness, which is why the sooner this sexist "Well, I disagree with her, but more importantly I wouldn't fuck her" mode of argument dies out, the sooner things start getting better for everyone.

The problem is, when Minority A are being given special rights that Minority B aren't allowed , then the bile will flow. Sad but true.

I think, or at least I hope, that the "not 'do'ing her" is more of an afterthought than a focus of the statement though. Yahtzee has used it to effect in both a Hetero and Homosexual way in a few of his reviews. No-one really expects that he pleasures himself over guns, do they?