I always hear people say how much better Western RPGs are. I just don't get it. I mean...I'm just going to do "fetch quest #1028266, and "clean out dungeon #12532829 over and over again. Yeah...take this to teh town...OK....now I'm starting to get a bit bored.....OK and....I did that for a slightly less powerful shield than the one I already have? You mean I've spent all these hours doing absolutly nothing to move the plot foward? I understand freeroaming but come on, this has gone beyond pointless. Anyone else feel this way?

I mean...yeah whoop dee doo an evil religious figurehead is summoning X monster to destroy world and only a group of 25 year olds at the oldest can save the world is a bit cliched but at least when I play for five hours I actually have an emotional attachment to these characters. I hate some, love others (be that what the devs wanted or not). But in a Western RPG...I can't even quarentee that I'll even know the characters freaking name yet because I'd be so lost fetching a cow for a farmer 20 minutes of horseback riding away in hopes that one of these 30 tasks given to me will let me hear the backstory of the world, villian, problem, something.

You seem to have pretty much gone on about both Western and J-rpgs... And i dont get what this post is about... more expainy please?

que?

I have a great deal of trouble recognizing "western" as a valid subclass of RPGs unless you're using it as a way of saying "not JRPGs". JRPGs tend to follow the same plotlines, stereotypes, and styles because that's Japanese culture, but to compare something like Fallout to something like Morrowind to something like Mass Effect and say that they're all in the same category.... hm.... they're pretty much completely different games.

Note: I'm sure that JRPGs, if you look hard enough, can be equally diverse. I have personally been burned too many times to keep trying to look hard. All I'm saying is that, in my experience, western RPGs are more diverse than JRPGs, and it's harder to put them all in the same box.

- J

Yeah, you've played Oblivion.It's quite infamous within RPG communities.

Just keep trying, looking for your "perfect RPG". I wouldn't classify myself as an RPG fan but I couldn't take my eyes of KOTOR and 2.The Witcher looks promising too if it wasn't for the ten minute loading times on my 1gb Ram Vista.

Speaking of character attachment

i feel that emotional attachment in a western RPG is possible, it just depends on how you as a person can interact and find similarities with a character in a game.

Western RPGs allow you to do what you want some of the best games use this as a tool to sell there games. Take GTA [just an example] for example in real life you can't go around blowing shit up, well you can but u get my drift. Escapism, is the key word being something you want to be, but you no you never can be. So take you custom char, you wanna assasinate someone ingame, sure you can theres gonna be no punishment in the real world..... but what about the virtual world? What effects that gonna have in game? You gonna be running away from the guards for the entire game? You don't have to be in the real world to be brave. How many times do people back out on online games becasue they are afraid of getting beat? How many times don't you wanna go kill that monster becasue it might kick the crap out of you? Your reacting to your own personal thoughts of what to do, you find yourself trapped in a city on the run from guards... your fearful becasue if you get caught your buggered. Take the opposite side of the spectrum in real life, your worthless have a lack of self esteem. But in a game you can release your true feelings, save some people, kill some bad guys.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but having a character that you made, that you can express in a virtual world in a emotional kind of way, applies to somebody.

There are some nice emotional moments in JRPGs i guess. But somewhere in the mid 90ies they all fell into a giant rut and stayed there and did absolutely nothing new at all.

But unlike the FF games, stuff like Mass Effect makes me silently mourn at times. Even Oblivion (No, seriously) made me feel more atached to the world around me then most JRPGs.

Also, FFX has the worst two protagonists in the history of media.

Does Mass Effect count? Because that's the only game I've ever gotten emotional over.

sammyfreak:

Also, FFX has the worst two protagonists in the history of media.

I assume you're referring to Tidus here, but i'd like to point out that Cloud and Squall from ffvii and ffviii were both moody, whiney bastards.

that being said, i did thoroughly enjoy both games...

i thing Zidane was the worst... protagonist i ever encountered in a FF game...

Mr_Cynical:

sammyfreak:

Also, FFX has the worst two protagonists in the history of media.

I assume you're referring to Tidus here, but i'd like to point out that Cloud and Squall from ffvii and ffviii were both moody, whiney bastards.

that being said, i did thoroughly enjoy both games...

I never did play FFVIII, but i actualy thought Cloud was actualy a great character. But yes Tidus is a complete cretin and Yuna if possible is worse. On the other hand Auron was briliant, why couldent he have been the main character?

OK..Cloud...Squall...Tidus I can understand....but what was the problem with Zidane?

just couldnt get on with him... think it was the tail :P but meh

VRaptorX:
OK..Cloud...Squall...Tidus I can understand....but what was the problem with Zidane?

He was an annoying loud misogynist. (He squeezes Garnet's ass like three times in the first disc) And after a lovely new mature direction the series was taking, FF9 suddenly backlashed to corny pre-FF6, which some Final Fantasy fans were unhappy with.

pre FF6? yeah...we had subjects of teen pregnancy, achoholism, drug abuse, death, betrayal, etc in those 2D FF games. Having lighthearted momments doesn't mean it isn't dark. Godzilla vs Hedorah had Godzilla using his atomic breath to fly. It was funny, but the plot of the movie itself was very dark as a whole. A few corny momments doesn't mean it isn't mature.

...you're seriously saying you can't see any difference at all between the Sony and the Nintendo Final Fantasies?
Are you blind, VRaptorX? Just curious.

Edit: I admit that art direction is the biggest difference, but I have to say that FF6 was more of a "Sony"-styled Final Fantasy than a "Nintendo"-styled final fantasy, when looking upon it in retrospect. For the darker and more realistic (not to mention futuristic) art direction, if nothing else.

Either way, Zidane was a big step backwards to a lot of people. Not to mention that he's uncool compared to Cloud, Squall and even freaking Tidus and Vaan!
He's LESS COOL than TIDUS and VAAN...
Okay, maybe not Vaan. He's about equal to Vaan.

Emotional moments in JRPGs are scripted.

Emotional moments in western RPGs tend to occur organically.

In a JRPG, every detail of every character is decided by the game developers. You, the player, have no say in the matter. You don't get to choose the characters' names, you don't get to choose their appearance, gender, backstory, personality, nothing. So yes, they might get into intense relationships with other characters, but it's only the game developers who make this happen. You the player have nothing to do with it.

In a western RPG, the character becomes what you make it. If you sit there passively and wait to be entertained, there isn't much to them. They require you to actually roleplay. You have to use some imagination.

This doesn't mean western RPGs can't suck (oh my can they ever) and it doesn't mean JRPGs can't be good. But if you want to play a role, don't play JRPGs. There's no RP in JRPG.

I must be an oddity in two ways. First, I adored FFX. I should say that I haven't played many Final Fantasy games, but even so FFX struck me as a very well done game, and I've never been able to comprehend the myriad problems people have with it: I never found the story confusing or far-fetched (for a fantasy world of high sorcery and technology), and I liked most of the characters, probably including a few others heavily dislike (I thought Yuna was a great character, for example, as she was not the stereotype of 'utterly helpless healer').

I only reference these things because they are representative of the problems people tend to have with most JRPGS.

Static plotlines that never branch
(the world will explode or it won't completely regardless of what you as a player do),

Constantly recurring stereotypes among main characters (There will ALWAYS be the lifemage girlfriend, the tall, brooding assassin-y guy, the child/child-like character, etc. and they will always look very similar to or the same as character XYZ from any given other game),

Constantly recurring plotlines (discussed below)

And finally you have specific little things, like invisible walls or small rocks preventing access to a goal, turn-based combat (with notable exceptions both good and bad), and general same-ness.

Psychologically speaking, JRPG's aren't really about "roleplaying". Rather, they're about power fantasies: playing the grand, and often nigh-perfect hero or imposing and cool anti-hero, gathering ever greater powers, weapons and skills, and saving the world from a threat that, at least post the mid-nineties, often took the shape of every mortal evil and then monstrous evil (typically via an evil corporation/religion that crushes people's lives and wants to take over the world with a superpower but is actually being manipulated by a single super-powerful and insane individual within the structure for his own nefarious world-destroying ends).

Western RPG's, on the other hand, are ONLY about roleplaying. The world is as wide open as developers can possibly make it and still have something resembling a plotline (I am using Morrowind, Oblivion and the little I played of Planescape: Torment as examples). You are free to interact with NPC's in nearly any way you choose, including killing them, with realistic consequences. And instead of arbitrary invisible walls, actual terrain features prevent access to new places. The plot of each Western RPG is distinctly different. And while power fantasies play a part to be sure, it's much more difficult to achieve a state of godhood over the enemies you're fighting. Prior to the advent of games like this, you had to go to Dungeons and Dragons or a similar pencil-and-paper game to achieve a similar experience.

Personally, I agree with VRaptorX: However much they may have certain advantages going for them, Western RPGs infuriate me. "Spend forever just creating your character! Adventure in a wide-open world and interact with hundreds or thousands of NPCs however you wish! What's the main quest? How do you even reliably get from one place to another?? Who knows, who cares?! You have someone's pants to find!".

Given that, I far prefer what JRPG's have to offer: I find truly dramatic and emotional scenes (Aeris' death, or Lavtiz's in Legend of Dragoon under functionally the same circumstances, the collapse of the underwater city in the same game) or legitimate heart-rending ones (Celes' reaction should Cid die in the World of Ruin) occur far more often in JRPG's, and are infinitely more involving.

But my experiences with Western RPG's haven't been completely sour, and here I want to try and wrap up my above ranting into a definitive point, one others have already made much more succinctly (beat me to it while I was writing this monstrosity of a post): the entire appeal of Western RPGs (Regardless of sub-genre, as this is Mass Effect's ENTIRE claim to fame) is the sheer amount of actual roleplaying you can do.

Developers strive to make everything as close to a "realistic fantasy situation" as possible. Sure there are certain limits, but in a good game even the limits work well with the overall goal. And there are problems, to be sure: repetitive quests, "leveled" enemies that equate to "You die HARD if you haven't done things a very specific way", a main plot that's nearly impossible to find, and a clinical detachment from the characters, even the one you're playing.

But many of these problems arise from the sheer freedom the player is afforded. You can do ANYTHING you want, if you're willing to deal with the consequences. And you aren't an invincible god right off the bat: you have to earn it. And the problems don't occur universally, as they tend to in JRPGs; Planescape: Torment attaches you to characters right from the start. Oblivion far surpasses its predecessor in travel, combat and ability to follow its own plot. Deux Ex Machina is supposed to be a golden gift from heaven, etc.

The trick is to try and stick to the good Western RPG's, if at all possible. If you don't, you begin to tire of the problems very, very quickly: just as you would with JRPG's. And if the problems with the former get to you regardless, well, then it's just purely a matter of taste.

There is a completely different feel for each style of game. WRPG's seem to be more for gameplay and interaction and JRPG's are more like interactive novels or movies. Do you whine if you can't control who a character is in a book or movie or that they do something you don't want them to? Why do it in a video game designed with a set story in mind?

WRPG's while entertaining weren't meant for that. As I said earlier it wasn't meant to be the same thing. You never really even need to complete the main quest in order to get what you want from a game. You play our your life in a fantasy world.

As for the cliches among JRPG's it continues on into most methods of story telling whether it's the character, big baddy, or anything else. Not too much is original and FF for instance has been going for how many games? Not just those numbered in the series but we could include the two animes, two movies, side games, strategy games, etc. Something is bound to be repeated.

Now that I've said my bit I have to defend my bro Zidane. I can honestly say I have missed a few FF's but he was the first cheery character I ever ran into that wasn't the pointlessly annoying backup character (Yuffie for instance). It was a step away from the cliche dark and dreary (or whiny in the case of Squall). As a correction also he only grabbed Dagger's ass once in the entirety of the game.

I could go on and on and on about the dispute over the superiority of one FF game over another (and characters) but this thread is not for that. I don't mind PMs or invitations to threads based around that if someone doesn't mind a dispute.

I would just like to point out that Jrpgs do not begin and end with Final Fantasy.

shadow skill:
I would just like to point out that Jrpgs do not begin and end with Final Fantasy.

Seconded. there are others, such as Crono trigger, Legend of Dragoon, the Tales series. Some of the best, to my understanding, never even made it over here in non-ROM form.

I find most RPG's to be highly inadequate, mind you I have played a few RPG's in my time that I did enjoy but they were mostly some sort of hybrid, like an FPS/RPG or a RTS/RPG.

And Jrpg's are the ones without any emotion, I mean can anyone relate to Jrpg characters, can even the japanese relate to them? I hope not because those are some poorly written characters, and often very poorly designed.

Relating and understanding would be two different things in terms of the characters. I have been able to get attached to characters.

On the note of other gaming styles there are some that are also enjoyable. Some even more so dependant on my mood. However this thread was about JRPG's vs WRPG's.

Going on to other styles of JRPG's not listed I liked Xenogears and Legend of Legaia. Final Fantasy however seems to be the most iconic and most popular. Not only that but they seem to have the most money and people in order to do more things. What other company has put out as many games, animes, movies, etc. that were all revolving around a central name or theme? I only brought up FF in order to defend Zidane anyway.

ofthemist:
Do you whine if you can't control who a character is in a book or movie or that they do something you don't want them to? Why do it in a video game designed with a set story in mind?

When characters in movies do idiotic things that I can't believe they would actually do, I blame that on a crappy script, not the limitations of the medium. When my character in a game does something stupid (without my choosing), I feel frustrated because I'm supposed to be controlling this character.

If I want a story, I'll watch a movie or TV show or read a book. Those media are better at telling stories than video games (they've had a lot more time to get good at it). If I want to make choices that actually affect the outcome, I'll play a game. Games are about choices. The soul of a game lies in the choices you make. Which is why I tend to find JRPGs rather soulless. If your story is so important that you won't trust a human player to mess around with it, why not just make a movie or write a book?

If you're going to make a game for me to play, then let me PLAY.

(Naturally, I started out playing pen-and-paper RPGs and boardgames. Is my bias showing much?)

Every criticism that can be leveled at WRPGs can also be leveled at JRPGs. The opposite, however, is not true.

The worst RPGs are obviously BRPGs, that is Black RPGs. RPGs made by black people.

So, like GTA or what?

(Damn, you're the epitome of lurker)

The thing is about JRPGs is that they always tend to have emotionally fucked up kids having to do everything because its all the adults fault. Also like kids they have to be told where to go at what time and they better have their packed lunches with them too or mum will get angry. The plot lines in JRPGs are so boringly linear. There is little choice on what to do and where to go to do it.

Whereas other RPGs tend to mix it up a little bit. There are main quests that advance the plot. But it helps if you do side quests because it gives you more of the back story and more of an attachment to the setting of the game. Not like those boring flashbacks were all so fond of in anime and JRPGs, those annoying storyline unskippable cutscenes....annoying.

GTA was made by white dudes in Scotland or Ireland. It ain't a black RPG.

It'll be interesting to see how much people hate black RPGs once Africa eventually makes video games. "Those damn BRPGs complain about racism too much! And I can never identify with the characters in the game. They have weird nappy hair and they like weird music. Plus everyone has really dark skin which is really lame."

shadow skill:
I would just like to point out that Jrpgs do not begin and end with Final Fantasy.

You still have respect the fact that FF really brought JRPGS as a mass product to the western world.

whats wrong with cutscenes? so there old and overly-used but if you buy a JRPG got something to say.. expect them.

I like the FF series.... FF7 was the first (and insofar only) game that made me cry (discounting tears of rage, frustration or triumphant glee). But the charecters are getting a bit odd.

Cloud: Psycho, so cool despite being blonde. Best baddie too. Hardest RPG played to date.

Squall: Did very little compaining (or talking at all) and had a scar across his face. So still cool.

Zidance: Rhymes with 'Inane', and for good reason. Has a tail, steals stuff and has the weakest build and weapon of a FF charecter to date.

Tidus: Queer-ish, but the only FF charecter to even come close to having sex with the female protagionist so earns points there.

Yuna: Female, but got her own game so must be counted in. Only main FF charecter with guns (+) attractive (+) (in a CGi way) but has an annoying laugh and 'blonde' mentality(-).

Vaan: Irksome, but not too badly scripted at times. Still hasn't made a move on the Princess (making him something of an oddity here) but otherwise does the job okay. Still the more disappointing one, but the game iteslf wins points for the 'any weapon, any magic' system. (loses for the gambit system)

Fallout 2: Your own charecter, nicely free-roaming with just enough storyline to hold the plot together. Has sex (+).

BG series: Same as fallout, without guns.

Grandia: Don't really get the plot, but still really enjoying the game.

WTH is with all the Zidane hate?

On-topic, I can't really agree with all the JRPG hate, I just think it takes a certain mentality going into it. And again, "JRPG"=/="Final Fantasy". In fact, my two favorite JRPGs that I have played are Chrono Trigger and Xenogears. Neither of which have an effeminate main character.

Edit: Also, Auron is the most bad-ass character in any JRPG.

yeah....I think mentioning Zidane and all that got this a bit of topic. Noone remember Tales of Phantasia? Dragon Quest? Crono Trigger? Super Mario RPG?

also...FF2,4,5,and 6 were all darker stories. 1 had no plot really but it was complex (you have to actually know chaos theories to understand Garland's plan) and 3...well I only played DS version and it was vague but it did play on a whole "too much good is a bad thing as well" thing.

And we are complaining about cutscenes? Wait....so you'd rather have your plot told out by text like Xenogears? May I remind everyone of spending an hour while some person tells the longest ass, most overly detailed story ever? And what was happening on screen.....a person in a rocking chair going back and forth. Nothing else; I'm still staring at this same freaking room while teh entire plot gets layed out. Cutscenes keep momments like long story telling from getting boring.

Speaking of which...why do you not want games to tell a story? Even the most simplistic games had a story. From NES on every game had a backstory of some kind.....unless you are an Atari game, in which case you have a 50% chance of no story.

lol i think i mentioned.. zidane :( i am sorry lol