We've all seen the forums that are always some thing along the lines of "what your idea for a new and great mmo". and Im shore that most of us have put up some idea or respsonce. Yet heres some thing that has crossed my mind 'do we knwo what makes a good MMO in the first place'.

I belive its would benifit every one greatly if we firgured what makes and break an mmo befor we come up with ideas.

I am aware that i dotn have an all of thee above option but thats becasue i want to now your opinions of the BIGGEST problem. Also please do not state "this is a good game, play" or any veriation of that, its s useless opionion i watn thoguhts not brain dead comentary.

So i invite you all to come and think PRODUCTIVLY about what would assist the game industry and help them create better games for us or at least for our child (THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!). So post your anilitacal opinion ,and please no flaming each other people.

I want us to think creativly.

P.S. Im dyslixic so i apologize in advanced for any spelling mistakes i make.

My major problem with MMO's is the monthly payment structure. The only one I have ever considered getting was Guild Wars because of the prospect of only dealing with a one time payment. Micro payments also "kinda" work - for other people, for me I just keep playing the free game indefinitely. In my life, I just don't want to not be able to play a game months or years later, just because I don't make a monthly payment or what have you.

If there was some way to make a MMO have that same bit of entitlement I feel to the ownership of the game, plus only having to do a one time payment, then I can swallow that pill and go down the rabbit hole. I am not against multiplayer only games, just being unable to play it any time after I purchase it.

Largest problem with MMORPGS for me is the complete and utter lack of any overarching storyline. Sure, there are individual guild quests and item quests and "please help me scratch my nanny's bum" subquests, but when all is said and done, there really isn't any depth to it. The industry can regurgitate fanfiction into official storybooks as much as it wants to, but the fact remains that if it is not in the game, then ipso facto, it is a commercial figment and nothing more. PSO was the only online rpg that managed to avoid this pitfall, but they made the game so rigedly structured that partying was a hassle and the whole experience seemed somewhat hollow in retrospect.

Also, I have to agree with Canadianwolverine on this one. Blizzard has a strict no-tolerance policy on private servers and will actually ban players caught on them for life from their little toy world. This kind of negates the idea that you're paying a monthly fee for server maintanance and development, since a private server isn't draining on them. Most people that are on ps's are the people that wouldn't shill out money to keep playing the game in the first place, but I digress (frequently). Generally speaking, it's my firm opinion that the online games industry is barreling down the wrong way, flames spewing off the rear and taking people along for a very pretty and short ride.

If you want to find the faults of an mmo, just play one.
Theres plenty to go around in every game.

I liked WoW for a while, until I realized it commandeered my life and I had to schedule everything else around raiding. Raiding was fun for a week or so, but pressing the same fucking button mindlessly got really annoying. It was like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer became fat enough to go on disability leave, then he set a toy bird to keep pressing "y" on his computer. It honestly felt like that, so I guess you can say that the downfall of MMO's is grind. Better writers than me have already beat the grinding issue into the ground far enough to open a deli in Shanghai, and I don't feel like trying to add to the topic. Short story, grinding sucked.

Flip the question on it's head: ask "why is WoW so popular?"

It's a sad but (generally) true fact that originality does not give a game mass appeal. Sure, it may sell the game to a niche market, and that niche market may even be fairly large, but a considerable percentage of the world's "average" gamers - the people not posting in forums like this one - don't give a swollen cancerous testicle about originality. They want popularity. They want ease of use.

Many people will ignore gaping flaws in the game mechanic, procedure, and setting for the secure knowledge that they are surrounded and supported by as many fellow players as possible. This is especially true of MMOs, but is by no means limited to those. How else do you think games like FIFA soccer games, NFL sequels, the Need for Speed series and the like continue to thrive? People buy them because people buy them, not necessarily because they're any good.

That's why WoW is so immensely popular - it's enormous popularity provides it with a sort of "gravity" that draws other players in. The process snowballs, meaning that the bigger the game gets, the bigger the game will continue to get until it finally reaches an equilibrium point where it has already drawn in as many of the lowest common denominator as it can achieve.

From that point onwards, games have to rely on their originality. Not just in setting, but also in game mechanic, execution, style, appearance and intellectual content.

The fact is that players who are interested in games that are mould-breaking, envelope-pushing experiments into new creative territory are a minority. A fairly sizeable minority, maybe, but still less than 50% of the whole.

In order to improve MMOs, therefore, we need to improve human nature to the point where such improvements will reap financial success. An MMO is a commodity that must be sold, and game developers are companies out to make money. I'm sure quite a lot of developers would be interested in creating the next truly original online gaming odyssey. But at the end of the day people have to eat when they go home and that inevitably means sacrificing some degree of artistic vision in favour of the safe bet.

It's like how you have to have staple foods in your diet. Sure, Oreos, chocolate, crumpets and Guinness are wonderful things, but if you neglect your meat, rice, potatoes and vegetables you're going to suffer because of it.

all of the above. The formula and mechanic is made form the game but the story, meaning, themes and everything is not there. We need a world (city, town, state ect) not just a basic (if large) environment.

AngryMan:
Flip the question on it's head: ask "why is WoW so popular?"

That's why WoW is so immensely popular - it's enormous popularity provides it with a sort of "gravity" that draws other players in. The process snowballs, meaning that the bigger the game gets, the bigger the game will continue to get until it finally reaches an equilibrium point where it has already drawn in as many of the lowest common denominator as it can achieve.

I think you're being unfair to Wow, as many are these days- while what you say has some truth, there has to be a reason why the game was popular in the first place. It took what the biggest MMos had done, and gave them polish, made them more forgiving and more fun, and set it in a well realised world with stories to tell.

Wow lacks an over arching plot, something difficult for any MMO to acheieve and exist for longer than a set period of time, but has lots of minature stories to tell, and by creating a very beautiful world which the player can explore, draws the players in that way. From a basic level, the early quick level progression is probably what drew me in- getting more abilities, and also competing with my friends, fighting new quests and going on my first instance, it sucked me in, of this I have no doubt. Crafting provided a distraction, and there was always a new goal to aim for. Goal orientated playing is ultimately what most gamers crave.

Sadly, the problems cropped up. The grind got to me, and advancement slowed down to a crawl as I wondered round, looking sadly for quests to complete that were worth my while- not being the most social of players I had avoided any real structure and had managed to hit level 34 without any real allies, other than my friends, who shared the same computer. So most of the quests available to me at that time were dull, and the interesting ones were far too hard for me to do solo. I no longer had goals I was interested in- level 40 looked fun, for the prescene of a mount, but by this point it occured to me that the reward of going faster wasn't really all that amazing- it was kind of something they should already have.

Pvp briefly sparked my interest with the introduction of battlegrounds, but I was quick to notice that this was not a proper challenge- certain players, by getting epic gear, meant that I could not enjoy these matches- the enemy was just too strong.

So, how to improve? I think it's important to let players play their own way on this kind of experience, and for it to remain fun at all levels. People tell me that the experience at level 70 is great, but I really do wonder if 70 levels of boredom is really worth it to get there. Being in a group is fun, but you need to be online a LOT to maintain that structure if these people aren't real life friends. If I want to play a few times a week, then I'm going to have difficulty forming social groups. I don't mind group playing, and admirably the system for finding groups for instances works quite well, but it's annoying to say the least that often the best quests require two players. If the game is going to do that, it would be helpful to allow people to form groups far more easily.

Pvp needs more balance. For sure, there should be rewards for obssesive playing, and those people can play each other, but an element of matching in battlegrounds would be useful, and make it more fun for people who cannot devote the same amount of time.

A variety of enemies would be nice. As any character specialises, they tend to get into a rut of using exactly the same moves against every enemy they face- it would be nice if there was some more variety that forced you to change your tactics against these people- some spells being more effective than others, perhaps.

I would choose the first four options, if i could.

Most mmo's (if not all) lack originality. It's the same thing over and over again. Medieval setting, mythical beasts, arcane magic, and the story is something in the lines of "[evil-sounding god name]'s power is rising. The [evil race] are preparing for a full-scale invasion of the [cliché land name]". Then you start the game and you're ordered by the general himself to kill five slimes...

Talking about killing slimes, you spend most of the time grinding to get to a decent level, having no fun at all in the process. They could, at least, figure out a compelling, fun way to do it, but nope, let the customers suffer. By the time players notice, they'll be so hooked to the game that they won't be able to leave it, and even if they leave, the mmo has already sucked a ton of money from him.

As for the ingame economy, there's only one thing you can talk about: Gold farmers. Bot's that collect a shitload of money to sell it for real cash. And game developers couldn't care less, because this gold farmers are also subscribers who pay to play the freaking game, so the only chance you get to see this guys getting banned s if they forget to pay their subscription.

As for lack of individuality in character appearance, there's really not much mmo game developers can do about it. And the bigger an mmo gets, the more player individuality you'll have.

(sheesh, I'm going on an mmo rant rage today...)

Deathbird:
If you want to find the faults of an mmo, just play one.
Theres plenty to go around in every game.

oh hell i no whats wrong with them, i just want people to start thing about what can be done to IMPROVE them. Not saying "oh dear you've just fallen a well" i made this forum so we can come up with ideas to fix them.

Can I select all of them?

First thing, they should be less grind dependant.
So far I only know one game(AirRivals) where skill is more important than levels but even there it doesn't work our to well.But you still need to grind to 70-80 in order for skill>level to really work which can be a pain in the ass.

You should have given an all of the above option but since you didn't I clicked Other. My friend bought me WoW for Christmas one year I tried playing it used up the free month and haven't touched it since. The lack of an actual story, plus all the morons shouting racist and homophobic insults at each other and the lagging. They actually expected me to pay a monthly fee for that? If there isn't a good story to follow forget it.

It just seems to me, that for the most part developers try to hide the fact that they dont have any new ideas, by covering a dying MMO with a new skin. Just because now im digging for ore with a laser-drill instead of a pick-axe, it doesn't change the fact that im still doing the same thing for hours on end. Not to mention I'm paying 60 bucks a month to click the same spot on the ground over and over until I can go do somthing else repeditive. There are MMOs that have broken away from this and tried to be different, but as far as I can tell they are usually not accepted by the general public and never really get anywhere.

My biggest problems with MMOs:

1) Severs are entirely populated by MORONS. Am I really the only one who actually wants to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME?

2) Monthly subscriptions. I understand that servers don't come cheap, but if I pay sixty dollars for a game I want to be able to play it.

3) Obsessive need to be EXACTLY like World of Warcraft. Can't anyone try something new with these games? How about a turn-based game? Are they illegal or something?

EVE Online, in my experience, solved all of the problems in that poll except "Wannabe cyber badasses"... BoB, I'm looking at you! Heh... I played City of Heroes, and while I loved the game, it just boiled down to grinding around the lv.30 range. I played Guild Wars, which was just... full of assholes. I played PlanetSide, which was awesome, but then Sony gave it the finger. And then EVE... was like... a breath of fresh space-air, I suppose. No "direct" grinding (but a lot of waiting!), a vast conflict with actual importance, death was more than an annoyance, lots of cool people to fly with, a robust (if sometimes kinda broken, thanks CCP!) economy, and no elves with pointy ears. Although, if you're not playing with a competent corp, you're essentially done for. Unfortunately I've stopped playing due to time commitments, but it was, for me at least, essentially the cure to this poll's list of major ailments.

Tunaphish6:
The problem with this poll is that a few of the options have nothing to do with the actual MMO game but are about the people playing. Options should have included 'lack-luster graphics,' something I personally have problems with WoW, or the opposite, 'too system demanding,' something I've seen in EQ2.

with hind sight i have to aggre with you to a setin extent. However we need to understand the graphics while very nice and pretty, take up alot of computing power and that would drive up the cost of game development. Also high graphics woudl require more complex and powerfull severs and woudl give them more reason to drive up the price of monthly payments

As strangemusic said, EVE has few of the problems of other MMOs. We do have the wannabe cyber badasses, but they are easy fodder for actual cyber badasses. Also, CCP shows no mercy with regards to ISK sellers/buyers, since they piss off the rest of the player base.

I'd say that the players are a big problem. It's endemic to multiplayer games.

my biggest problem with mmos has always been the combat, i loved diablo 1 and 2, i enjoy starcraft, but it seems this real time turn based combat is now required by law in all mmos these days, i hate it it's so boring i just can't find the strength to care about anything thats going on around it. if they did another game like diablo 2 with skills and interesting stuff going on i'd probably play it.

i'd also like an objective, it seems in most mmos these days the ultimate objective is to level up and gain more skills so you can level up faster... how about a story, how about something to freaking do.

I frankly dislike MMO's because of the images asscoiated with them, and frankly I see those images (read: stereotypes) to be true).

Thats why I can't wait for APB so I can go and shoot some gangztaz.

But In all truth I don't want to join a comunity where I can argue about Longsword preferences.

You didn't put an "All of the above" option.

The monthly payments on top of the initial payment, the endless grinding with no variation, the lack of a storyline (Ideally, the main storyline should be run via gamemasters and all other quests just be small storylines. When the main storyline ends, there's a rest in the game world where there's nothing big going on and then another one starts. If you want to centre it around someone, just have a random number generator and from that point on, whoever it is who logs in is that player. This isn't done because it would require a team of writers, storyline GMs and world builders for each storyline.) the complete morons and the lack of variation in character appearance (Oh, you want the best equipment? Okay, just jump in the Clone-O-Matic and we'll have you looking like everyone else in no time.).

I voted for the grinding, since imo it's simply the most glaring problem: MMOs are utterly boring, tedious and more work than game. Running around killing some arbitrary monsters by pushing 1,2,4 and then 3 exactly in that order for hour after hour simply is not fun.
Added to that are the problems that every multiplayer game has: Many people out there are simply idiots. Playing with them is not exactly my idea of having a good time. I wouldn't invite them to watch a movie or have a beer, so why should I want to play a game with them?
I simply had enough of those guys in online games to just be fed up with them.
Also, MMORPG is a misnomer. There's no RPG in there.
So, long story short: All of the things other people before me have already posted here. I'm just bored ;)

This is the best free mmo(FPS): War Rock. I expect to see each and everyone of you on it!

matches81:
I voted for the grinding, since imo it's simply the most glaring problem: MMOs are utterly boring, tedious and more work than game. Running around killing some arbitrary monsters by pushing 1,2,4 and then 3 exactly in that order for hour after hour simply is not fun.

In reality, you could say that about almost any game =\. RTS boil down to hitting hotkeys and telling units to go somewhere. FPS boil down to pointing your crosshair at an enemy and firing. Racing games have you pointing the car in the direction you want to go.

The execution of these basic tasks is what makes a game good or bad. The majority of MMO's, sadly, have a very boring combat system. This is thanks, mainly, to EQ where tank classes, generally, had two buttons they pressed (three if you count auto-attack), the majority of casters had one or two spells they cast, and then most people had macros set up to auto-buff the group. Stuff like this went a long way in changing the MMO from UO to WoW.

The biggest problem in MMO's tends to be the speed of things. Combat will either be too short or too long with not a big enough reward the majority of the time. This isn't to say that grinding is a bad thing, as MMO's that tried to eliminate grinding simply couldn't do it (Vanguard with its naggingly long runs to turn in a potion to some fondle-monster isn't exactly thrilling), but having to grind is generally a bad way to go about things.

Sadly, the majority of end game content in MMO's boils down to who, or what group, can grind what the longest to achieve the biggest e-peen of them all. In fact, that seems to be the entire WoW experience in a nut shell.

Anyway, I think there are a lot of problems with MMO's, so I'll just list them in no order of importance.

1. No character love. The only two MMO's I've actually cared about my characters in were UO and EQ. This is partly due to those games being incredibly unforgiving in death and partly due to those games having you invest time into the characters for them to be worth while. In EQ this equated to grinding. In UO this equated to any number of things.

2. No real impact in the world. This is a pretty big problem and some MMO's have tried to tout that the player can have an impact on the world when nothing of the sort ever happens. "Oh man. If I finish this quest this man will move over to this rock over here!" Big deal. EQ2 tried to emulate this by not allowing a race to be played until a player completed a quest. No, I'm not talking about you... I'm talking about any player on that server. In UO, your player actually had some sort of an impact in the world as you, the player, could do any number of things to actually have an important impact on not only other players, but the lay of the land.

3. Risk/Reward. No MMO has done this right. The risk needs to be equal to the reward. EQ and UO had this all wrong (very high risk, very little reward) and now WoW and all the other MMO's like it have it the exact opposite (very little risk, very high reward). When I kill a goblin, he should have a few things on him. The value of these items should make sense according to the world you are living in, not according to what the player base thinks. This brings me to #4.

4. Economy. MMO economies suck. Not enough reliance on NPC's for essential good required for every day play makes farming incredibly simple. It should be very hard to actually make a living as an adventurer. Those riches should be reserved for very high risk areas. This doesn't mean, though, that the player should be starved for items. Part of the problem of in game economies are the fact that the majority of items are not Unique... that is to say that a player can't have more than one of that item.

5. The grind. Just make the risk equal the reward. This way, it doesn't feel like grinding as it should actually feel like you are getting 'better'. In fact, the biggest reason grinding exists is because levels exist. MMO's without levels generally don't have the feeling that you're grinding. Games like UO did this very well, although you could easily cheat your way through some of the skills in a day.

Monthly fees aren't really an issue at all. 15 bucks a month is less than you pay when you go to the movies and will easily net you more entertainment, regardless of if you like the game or not, than a movie will. They also, generally, ensure that you play that one game more than others. I can't even begin to count the number of games I've bought since I stopped playing MMO's that were simply terrible but bought them because I had beaten the other games I had to death.

^^
Well, I'm thinking Credge just said it better than I ever could, but I'm fresh from quitting WoW so here comes my take on the main reasons and ways you could improve them:

1. Lack of originality. A friend once jokingly told me there are two kinds of MMOs- Apocalypse Futuristic and Medieval. City of Heroes is the only big one I can think of that doesn't use either of these settings overmuch. I believe this happens because these are the two settings most used in gaming and movies, and thus has a far greater wealth of materials, cool designs and references to rip of*cough* pay homage to. Basically, any setting that gets used in a quality 3D game or any novel should be adaptable to an MMO with a little imagination.

2. Obessive grinding. The big one for me. Having two dozen different species to fight in the Barrens doesn't mean jack all when they all fight pretty much the same way- melee with a unique buff or two. Easy enough to fix- developers just have to learn the same lesson regular game devs did about 15 years ago and give enemies different attack patterns and weaknesses. I remember hearing about a WoW Raid Boss named Hakkar (never fought him) who actually required everyone in the group to recieve one of his debuffs to survive his strongest spell, immediatley reminding me of Yunalesca's Megadeath from Final Fantasy. More cunning enemies like that please, and not just the Raid Bosses. One style of play shouldn't work on everything.

Having a diverse cast of foes and attacks is just half the battle: 'Kill some of local wildlife x,y, and z' is the current bread and butter of all MMOs it seems. Even if doing so required you to kill a lot of wildlife x y and z during a trip from point a to point b, a more complex mission objective helps alleviate boredom. Any mission objective or action sequence in a regular game can be moved into an MMORPG- it just takes a little creativity. Personally I would like to see more missions where the hideout of the enemy you've just been waging a one-man war against blows up or something after you're done the quest tree. Some kind of marker to announce your triumph.

3. Lack of an ingame economy. Everyone of course thinks of the legendary 'Chinese Gold Farmers', but honestly I never found them terribly annoying unless they steal a kill from you- maybe another four minutes longer to finish a quest. Big deal. A more valid economic concern raised was money in RL- the annoyance of a membership fee. A neccessary evil I guess, but one that could be balmed with the introduction of multiple payment plans for different people with different schedules. Perhaps a 'buy in bulk' plan for 6 months with an overall discount, and another for folks with a limited amount of play time that would give them only 2 hours per day, but be cheaper than the monthly plan to compensate... Just like a phone company. I know I'd definetly get the 2-hour-per-day plan for WoW or CoH if it was available.

Fantasism, I'm afraid. Half of what kept me going in WoW for so long was the thought of all that wasted pay time when I was at work or school. A cheap, even despicable way of ensuring player loyalty, but one that is incredibly effective.

This requires planning.

sun_and_earth:
My biggest problems with MMOs:

1) Severs are entirely populated by MORONS. Am I really the only one who actually wants to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME?

2) Monthly subscriptions. I understand that servers don't come cheap, but if I pay sixty dollars for a game I want to be able to play it.

3) Obsessive need to be EXACTLY like World of Warcraft. Can't anyone try something new with these games? How about a turn-based game? Are they illegal or something?

All of the above, plus the fact that WoW tried to steal my girlfriend.

honestly pay for play is the worst....you can play wow for 15 a month plus the core payment of the game... that starts to really pile up. to rich for my blood

WhiteFangofWar:
Fantasism, I'm afraid. Half of what kept me going in WoW for so long was the thought of all that wasted pay time when I was at work or school. A cheap, even despicable way of ensuring player loyalty, but one that is incredibly effective.

That's one of the bigger reasons why so many will continue to play WoW like they did EQ. All the time spent in the game doesn't actually really mean anything outside of the game.

I think this is also why achievements are so popular. All that time spent actually shows something on your Live account. "LOOK AT HOW DEVOTED I AM TO GAMING!" Yeah, great.

Credge:
In reality, you could say that about almost any game =\. RTS boil down to hitting hotkeys and telling units to go somewhere. FPS boil down to pointing your crosshair at an enemy and firing. Racing games have you pointing the car in the direction you want to go.

Well, basically you're right. But my point was not the controls of MMORPGs, but how they are used. I think WhiteFangoWar brought my point across much better than I did: One play style fits every enemy. No thinking required. You encounter an enemy, turn auto-attack on and throw in your "special attacks" with the press of a number key every now and then. That doesn't require skill or thought at all, which is what all the other games you listed would require at least to some extent. In most MMORGPs I played it gets even worse since you often fight dozens of monsters of the same type one after the other. After the first two of those monsters you know exactly how long it will take to kill one of them and what "special attacks" you'll need, after which it gets even more boring, since you only repeat the same sequence over and over again.

Other than that I completely agree with you.
The only MMORPG I played that circumvented the grinding somewhat well was DDO: Hunting monsters doesn't help you, you have to do quests to get somewhere, and those quests mostly are far better done than the ones found in DDO's competition. Also, the combat resembles that real-time semi-turn-based system found in most single-player RPGs today. While I don't think that system is ideal, at least I don't get bored to death.

sun_and_earth:
My biggest problems with MMOs:

1) Severs are entirely populated by MORONS. Am I really the only one who actually wants to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME?

2) Monthly subscriptions. I understand that servers don't come cheap, but if I pay sixty dollars for a game I want to be able to play it.

3) Obsessive need to be EXACTLY like World of Warcraft. Can't anyone try something new with these games? How about a turn-based game? Are they illegal or something?

ok I understand that many people liek to role play and every thing and im fine with that, but soem people dotn want another life but an extention of the real one so role playing realy doesnt help when you want to socialize with real people.

I belive that subscriptions are nessary, they could be cheaper but were stuck with them.

Lastly we need live action/real time gaming turn based mmos woudl do well in the online comunity to time wasting and i would steal some strategy. alos becuase of different rates of information trasnfer we cant have soem thing so hands on as we woudl with a ifhgting styel more remonisant of kingdom hearts.

MMOs are social games by definition. And many people will play MMOs long past their prime for their social aspects.

So make social networking tools a priority. A game doesn't include any social networking tools beyond friend list and text chat? AutoFail.

I want something in MMOs that's never going to happen - A solo or small group (of maximum 5-6 people) alternative to the massive raids.

This is mostly pointed at WoW, as it's the only MMO I'm currently playing. I love WoW but I've now taken two characters to level 70 and are starting to lose interest. I heavily dislike PvP other than the occasional battle ground. I hate playing in groups larger than 5 people. But! I too want to have a shot at getting the end game gear and experience the end game instances without having to go with others than my friends. I've played with a static party both times I've gotten to lv 70 and would love to continue doing so. I'm not saying it should be easy but I am saying that it should be possible. Much of this is because me and my friends play WoW casually and we don't want to risk turning it into a job where you have to raid at certain scheduled times and if you're not there you get kicked out of the guild for being in the way or something.

Well, that's my small amount of currency on MMOs.

I chose "Other", because I like to think it is a mixture of all of those you listed.