Just wondering where did you find the information about warcraft and starcraft... that really isnt striking me as true. partly because of that word 'apparently' ya used which can be used in any context...

"Apparently EA games create CDs by burning puppies"

see? :/

I... You're wrong? I mean, I'm not the sort to usually just say people are wrong, but in this case you are very wrong. I suggest you first look into where blizzard came from instead of where people say blizzard got famous. Blizzard was making some great stuff before they were blizzard. Lost Vikings comes to mind.

I don't know who informed you that Starcraft and Warcraft were to be warhammer and 40k clones, but you should hit them. Hard. Sharp or blunt, just be sure the object you use is large. They're ignorant, and are the type of person that keeps us from getting invited to the good parties. It's not any manner of secret that both starcraft and warcraft have similarities to the warhammer canon, but then... I suppose Star Trek is just a ripoff of Warhammer 40k because it calls the system earth is in Terra, and that's clearly a play on Holy Terra from the 40k universe. Oh, and be damn sure to sue Tolkienn while you're on this crusade, because those orks and ents and so forth MUST have came from the minds behind warhammer.

My point with this is there's a difference in inspiration versus theft. You're actually quite right about diablo, and myself I have found diablo to be rather mediocre in the installments that followed the first. I use the plural, because I count releases of expansions as whole-hearted games, as they should be counted in my personal opinion. There again, that's my opinion, and has no bearing on this point. Anyway, diablo did come from another company that they just kind of absorbed, and forwarded capital to. Whether you realise it or not, capital, and the name blizzard, are what made diablo popular. That's just how this bass ackwards community of gaming works. If people see it, people are more likely to like it.

Warcraft is not a warhammer clone. Never has been, never will be, and it was never meant to be. I believe what you're referring to is blizzard was indeed going to do some work on some warhammer games, starting with fantasy, and going up to their 40k, but they didn't because much like everyone else GDW has ever spoken to, they found a sour taste in their mouths named 'Pretentiousness'. I don't know if you frequent conventions or anything, but you should meet some of these people who are supposed masterminds behind GDW's most noted notables. They're pompous blowhard assholes, to be polite. I don't find the story that Blizzard simply turned them down hard to believe at all, nor do I think it would behoove a slightly educated person to think they didn't get the idea from that. However, warcraft was never going to be warhammer. Starcraft was never meant to be starhammer. (Oh, aren't I punny?)

T3chn0s1s is right you need to verify the information you read, donīt believe everything you see in the internet.

I remember playing the original Warcraft. It was a super-simplistic RTS game developed by a completely unknown developer. I hardly think they had even the vaguest connection with a giant company like Games Workshop at that time. Now Starcraft... that could be true, but I think it's more of an "artistic license" thing. Besides, why hate Blizzard? It's like hating EA. It makes you feel good for a little while, but it's ultimately futile. They're a big company these days and have other people develop games for them while they sit back and watch the cash roll in. It's just how the industry works.

I guess the point of it all in the end is that Blizzard took an idea and made it into something epic that hooked millions of gamers. It doesn't matter where they got their ideas from, nowadays it's impossible to actually create your own look of a character without it stepping into the shoes of a another character by a couple of inches of hair.

Everything has been made now, but now is the time for others to tweak those ideas and make them better. Blizzard achieved this. If you work for Games Workshop or are an avid fan of them too, perhaps I can understand your argument. Now I'm not sure if this the point that you are trying to get across but if you are going to stop playing their games just because they supposedly took someone elses ideas and made them better, then that's very shallow of you and quite frankly your loss.

But maybe you are simply venting and will see that as Diablo III comes out and rocks our world, you will forgive them for their sins and return to the company you always loved. They're a bloody good company and you shouldn't worry about the going's on within their building. It doesn't affect us as a community since during these scandalous events our games have still been pristine and it continues to live up to the name it built for itself. Unless you previously worked there, it's quite frankly none of your business.

I don't want to sound too harsh, forgive me if I do because I sympathize. I understand where you are coming from but we're just gamers dude. We don't need to care about the politics outside of the fantasy we want to play in. We just want to cut things into tiny pieces as a barbarian.

Can I point out you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

I've heard the same story, that warcraft was originally a warhammer computer game, but even if it was true... SO WHAT?! You could go claim that ping-pong is just a tennis ripoff, but does that make it any less enjoyable? Fantasy is all over, in one way or another there are always similarities, ripoffs or inspiration taken from each other. I really have a hard time to see why you are angry, if a game is good then enjoy it. As for Warhammer Online it has alot of potential and it seems really good, not going to argue against that. But it was actually canceled a six-ish years ago, and then picked up again when WoW broke through and made MMOs what they are today, do you see where i am trying to go with this?

I lost interest in WoW when I came back from Iraq and my guild skyrocketed up the server ladder and turned into a bunch of elitist cunts (well, the strategists and leadership).

Other than that I owe the developers all the credit in the world. They made a damn good game and all the games preceding it were awesome as well. They don't need to have anything else out on the shelves now because they make far more money than they ever dreamed off one title.

No reason to get disillusioned with them over all that, just hope the next game they make will have the impact the last one had.

I for one salute the only game I've ever seen that could suck in female players as effectively as the male audience.

I remember reading somewhere that the first warcraft was supposed to have been set in the warhammer world, but the collaboration fell apart & it got it's own world.

EDIT: seems I got beaten to that tidbit, but I'm in agreement with the other guy who mentioned it.

Hawgh:
I remember reading somewhere that the first warcraft was supposed to have been set in the warhammer world, but the collaboration fell apart & it got it's own world.

EDIT: seems I got beaten to that tidbit, but I'm in agreement with the other guy who mentioned it.

I rather like the universe they created more than WH, so much less nihilistic. Everyone's a fucken bad guy in the WH universe.

Thank God, I thought I was the only person who realised that Starcraft is a 40K knock-off. I mean jesus, Terrans=Space Marines, Protoss=Eldar, Zerg=Tyranids. At least GW were fairly imaginative and liberal in their interpretation of stuff like DnD and Tolkien.

I'm not saying Starcraft is a bad game, as I'm sure it isn't. But in terms of design and all that, it owes everything to GW.

Littaly:
I've heard the same story, that warcraft was originally a warhammer computer game, but even if it was true... SO WHAT?!

I completely agree. Even if they did steal the ideas from another company, that doesn't mean that it sucks, or shouldn't be played at all. Actually, for me, I think of every RTS as the same these days, just different interfaces, (a bit) different graphics, characters, and story. It all seems so original and awesome, but then I realize that it's just like (or maybe even completely same as) many thousands of other RTS's. Today, it happens in almost every other genre too, but there is still no reason to accuse anyone for stealing it or something. You shouldn't care. If you know a game is "stolen" from someone other, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy it (if it's enjoyable in the first place, of course).

Games Workshop is thanked in Starcrafts credits. Take that for what you will.

I think both Starcraft and Warcraft are both great games, whether of not they are based on the Warhammer universes.

I'm certain Blizzard are crushed and shall soon be sending you a well thought out and friendly letter of apology

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:
Thank God, I thought I was the only person who realised that Starcraft is a 40K knock-off. I mean jesus, Terrans=Space Marines, Protoss=Eldar, Zerg=Tyranids. At least GW were fairly imaginative and liberal in their interpretation of stuff like DnD and Tolkien.

I'm not saying Starcraft is a bad game, as I'm sure it isn't. But in terms of design and all that, it owes everything to GW.

Starcraft always made me think of AvP, to be honest.

- J

I'm with Littaly. My brother and I have had the discussion and while there are several obvious similarities, we could also say "zomg ther r lings in starship trooperz!". How many other space games/movies that don't have guys in suits with gauss rifles chasing down freaky alien creatures?

Personally, I don't think it is the case. But so what if Blizzard capitalized on Games Workshop's IP. Say that we all know that Starcraft is an utterly-blatant rip-off of 40K, Blizzard was still the one that brought it to life with so much success.

Ya know what, I support you in this! I sure do! I figure I need to give you some pointers though, so you don't become a hypocrite in your quest to hate Blizzard because they stole ideas.

First, you got Windows on your PC? Format that shit and throw on Mac OS, if you don't own a Mac, go buy one. Microsoft bought the first MS-DOS from a small company for 10 grand and then released it as their own. Then they constantly borrowed ideas from other companies for their subsequent OS versions. So, they are IP thieves, nuke Windows and do it fast.

Now, why can't you use Linux, you ask? Cuz Torvalds didn't create it, he just took Unix, tweaked it around a bit, and called it his own. Obviously he's a dirty, Finnish thief, so fuck him and fuck Linux!

Now since you're going to have to go get a Mac, I suggest you walk. No matter what kind of car you drive, some part of your car is an innovation from another company that your car's manufacturer decided to use. Maybe it's the airbag, maybe it's the seatbelt, maybe it's something in the power train...doesn't matter. The company that made your car is full of thieving assholes, so stop driving it.

Now, where we gonna get this Mac at? You can't go to Wal-mart. They don't sell Macs, and Sam Walton stole the idea of creating a department store from JC Penney, who stole it from someone before him, and so on. And, you can't really go to a mom and pop store, they stole the idea of owning a store from the countless independent business owners who came before them. Looks like you're going to have to walk all the way to the nearest Apple Store(good luck there, I've never seen one RL) and buy your Mac.

Can't use money though, currency wasn't the idea of our government, so it must be boycotted. Maybe you can barter some chickens for the Mac, who knows.

And, so on and so forth. I could really go on all day, but I think I've made the point I was working toward about how immature your statement is and how it is foolish to "hate" a company for borrowing an idea from another company. It happens all the time, the difference is that some companies, such as Blizzard, can take these ideas they borrow and innovate on them and make them something bigger or better than they were at the start.

Retoru:
Ya know what, I support you in this! I sure do! I figure I need to give you some pointers though, so you don't become a hypocrite in your quest to hate Blizzard because they stole ideas.

First, you got Windows on your PC? Format that shit and throw on Mac OS, if you don't own a Mac, go buy one. Microsoft bought the first MS-DOS from a small company for 10 grand and then released it as their own. Then they constantly borrowed ideas from other companies for their subsequent OS versions. So, they are IP thieves, nuke Windows and do it fast.

Now, why can't you use Linux, you ask? Cuz Torvalds didn't create it, he just took Unix, tweaked it around a bit, and called it his own. Obviously he's a dirty, Finnish thief, so fuck him and fuck Linux!

Now since you're going to have to go get a Mac, I suggest you walk. No matter what kind of car you drive, some part of your car is an innovation from another company that your car's manufacturer decided to use. Maybe it's the airbag, maybe it's the seatbelt, maybe it's something in the power train...doesn't matter. The company that made your car is full of thieving assholes, so stop driving it.

Now, where we gonna get this Mac at? You can't go to Wal-mart. They don't sell Macs, and Sam Walton stole the idea of creating a department store from JC Penney, who stole it from someone before him, and so on. And, you can't really go to a mom and pop store, they stole the idea of owning a store from the countless independent business owners who came before them. Looks like you're going to have to walk all the way to the nearest Apple Store(good luck there, I've never seen one RL) and buy your Mac.

Can't use money though, currency wasn't the idea of our government, so it must be boycotted. Maybe you can barter some chickens for the Mac, who knows.

And, so on and so forth. I could really go on all day, but I think I've made the point I was working toward about how immature your statement is and how it is foolish to "hate" a company for borrowing an idea from another company. It happens all the time, the difference is that some companies, such as Blizzard, can take these ideas they borrow and innovate on them and make them something bigger or better than they were at the start.

Legend.

Strange reason to quit in my opinion. The thing that made me switch to EVE after 2 years was that i realised it was more like a job than fun..

You realise that even Tolkien wasn't a very original writer? He just borrowed his fantasy world from Beowulf/Homer/European Mythology and aplied it to some decent writing.

The best ideas are the evolutions of other ideas, deal with it.

Retoru:
Ya know what, I support you in this! I sure do! I figure I need to give you some pointers though, so you don't become a hypocrite in your quest to hate Blizzard because they stole ideas.

First, you got Windows on your PC? Format that shit and throw on Mac OS, if you don't own a Mac, go buy one. Microsoft bought the first MS-DOS from a small company for 10 grand and then released it as their own. Then they constantly borrowed ideas from other companies for their subsequent OS versions. So, they are IP thieves, nuke Windows and do it fast.

Now, why can't you use Linux, you ask? Cuz Torvalds didn't create it, he just took Unix, tweaked it around a bit, and called it his own. Obviously he's a dirty, Finnish thief, so fuck him and fuck Linux!

Now since you're going to have to go get a Mac, I suggest you walk. No matter what kind of car you drive, some part of your car is an innovation from another company that your car's manufacturer decided to use. Maybe it's the airbag, maybe it's the seatbelt, maybe it's something in the power train...doesn't matter. The company that made your car is full of thieving assholes, so stop driving it.

Now, where we gonna get this Mac at? You can't go to Wal-mart. They don't sell Macs, and Sam Walton stole the idea of creating a department store from JC Penney, who stole it from someone before him, and so on. And, you can't really go to a mom and pop store, they stole the idea of owning a store from the countless independent business owners who came before them. Looks like you're going to have to walk all the way to the nearest Apple Store(good luck there, I've never seen one RL) and buy your Mac.

Can't use money though, currency wasn't the idea of our government, so it must be boycotted. Maybe you can barter some chickens for the Mac, who knows.

And, so on and so forth. I could really go on all day, but I think I've made the point I was working toward about how immature your statement is and how it is foolish to "hate" a company for borrowing an idea from another company. It happens all the time, the difference is that some companies, such as Blizzard, can take these ideas they borrow and innovate on them and make them something bigger or better than they were at the start.

Best post I've read on this forum.

So, you're saying that you were basically already bored with WoW and frustrated at Blizzard, so you got up in arms with righteous indignation over something minor that every company in the history of the world has done? Alright, I'm with you now. I didn't know the full back-story, I wasn't aware that Blizzard was annoying you with nerfs to raiding that led you to be angry and frustrated with them, thus giving you the need to find a reason to hate them.

Second, you mentioned you cross-referenced using a Wiki? That's an automatic fail, good sir. There are a lot of great websites out there to do research on, but a Wiki is not one of them. There are no controls set for the content and only a very basic attempt to validate claims made on them, and those basic attempts aren't even taken unless someone tags the page as being possibly fishy. So, all in all research using a Wiki = fail.

You also state that the guy who balanced PvP was a douchebag. How does this have any bearing on the game itself? I'm a huge dick sometimes in RL, but it has no adverse consequences on my job performance at work, the surliness is just a bit of an extra bonus you get when you deal with me, but I do things properly.

Retoru:
I figure I need to give you some pointers though, so you don't become a hypocrite in your quest to hate Blizzard because they stole ideas.

...wait, what? Your arguement has no bottom.

Think of the whoops and cheers he got when he made that first famous post. Now watch as the true troll comes out.

Decroux:
Think of the whoops and cheers he got when he made that first famous post. Now watch as the true troll comes out.

I figure you were talking about me, but I'm hardly a troll. Sure, I'll stand up and voice my concern when someone lays out an idea that I feel is inherently foolish, but I won't provoke people for the simple pleasure of doing it.

I don't like Blizzard very much right now. Their games are great, whether or not they were originally GW material. I don't really care, although I do play Tau in 40k. The thing I don't like about them is their lack of creativity in art design and the fact that they basically have Starcraft, Warcraft, and Diablo making up 90% of the products they've ever released. According to the Wikipedia page, they haven't made a game that didn't fit into those 3 series since 1995! That's 13 years!

There was Blackthorne on Mac in 1996 and a port of Lost Vikings on GBA in 2003.

I am a big lost vikings fan, just for the record. Just got out of my two o'clock class and figured I'd come back and check out how things were going, and boy did I have some fun things to read through. Kudos go to Retoru, who rocks my world like some manner of world rocking device. Also, to those who mention the shoutout in starcraft, that is fact yes. You'll also notice that as I said before they DID have a deal to make a series of warhammer themed games, but they never did because of conflicts of interests. I don't know what they were, but my words are the GDW are big poopoo poody heads.

I think I'm allowed to rag at GDW from time to time, but don't think I don't love them. ^_- I almost got a job with them at a con because of my work with other companies. I rag at them, because in said other companies I kept running into one asshole after another that had one reason or another why we weren't allowed to touch their products because it is some manner of holy grail. Bastards... Did you know they have a policy that online retailers aren't allowed to purchase their products unless they have a brick and mortar location? Bollocks...

I digress. My point is, I don't understand your logic. Why is blizzard evil for 'copying' GDW even though we've well established that they're NOT the same universes?

"Original" is a relative term. And Warcraft is relatively unoriginal. I'm not saying they don't make good games. I'm just saying they make Warhammer clones.

(I'm seriously not a big Warhammer fan, although I do like how dark the atmosphere is)

If the people directly affected by the 'injustices' mentioned in your post aren't going to raise their own banner against Blizzard, why should we? How can we hold them as martyrs to some cause if they do not consider themselves such?