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Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1394 Joined: 31 Aug 2008     | |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 94 Joined: 20 Aug 2008     | Personally, I love Blizzard. I also HATE WoW. WoW was cool when it came out, <fanboyism>almost as good as Classic/Shrouded Isles(first expansion) Dark Age of Camelot</fanboyism>, I enjoyed it most of the way, but I got sick of the grinding and started only PvPing around level 44. Then, I started making new characters to explore the classes, as my highest was a lvl 44 Orc Warlock, and I dominated PvP :3, and much to my surprise, Twinking skyrocketed since my lock was 19 (he wasn't a twink but 19's when I started PvPing). Twinking, IMO, started the long process of Blizzard ruining it's own game, and Burning Crusade was the final nail in the coffin. I can't stand WoW anymore! BC turned WoW from a slow decline into a 90 degree cliff into Fail Valley, and not to mention that the community is horrible, at least most of it. Now, they're other HUGE one, Diablo II, was great for a long time, and then Hell came along, and you can only play the SAME thing so many times, mind you by the time I got my main to hell, I've already had a few characters half or 3/4 of the way through Nightmare also. I do play it again now and then, but I know what every location looks like, it's burned into my head and it gets repetitive. Starcraft, it's not bad but I could never get that into it :/ WarCraft, the RTS series, it the best thing Blizz has for it, though. It's not without it's flaws, and I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's the best thing Blizz has right now, IMO. It's just too bad WarCraft 4 prolly won't happen...ever. I mean, the WarCraft story line will for the most part end once Arthas is dead in WoW. Don't even mention "Oh the maelstrom, bla bla bla." That's just Blizz delaying the inevitable death of WoW. Ok, done WoW bashing, lets get more on topic. I, personally, agree for the most part with the OP. I have read, and I believe the stories about Blizz taking influence/ideas from Warhammer, it honestly sounds reasonable. A lot of people copy others in today's gaming world, just look at *Generic Korean MMO #48592851*. It's exactly like *Generic Korean MMO #19038790*. But I at least hope Warhammer comes and takes the throne, I LOVED DAoC (mentioned above, made by Mythic by the way, people who're making Warhammer), though I don't know why they're calling it RvR, because with only 2 realms, it's nothing like the 3 realm RvR in DAoC, might as well just be called PvP. Either way, I look forward to leveling up almost purely by RvR :D |
BANNED  Posts: 1336 Joined: 21 May 2008    | Yeah, PvP/RvR is the way to go in an MMO, and since Mythic can concentrate themselves on the game because EA manages money and GW provides the IP, it's all the better. If only they had done that for Hellgate lol. I personally think blizzard should just keep going with RTS. With warcraft, that team isn't even trying to differ from Warhammer, and they just plain trashed WoW at BC, but even W3 is still enjoyable I think (frozen throne is meh though, except for online...hate maeiev omg). I probably won't buy a warcraft 4, but if I see consistent changes in the starcraft lore on the other hand, which it seems they're doing currently, I'd consider the purchase. But warcrafts seem at their nadir to me. Shame what they did with diablo, too. What I did liked about blizzard was that when they made games they had virtually no bugs and learned on their own. The stories weren't very deep, like I state earlyer, but they make it so it's not a major part of the game even in SP RTS, to keep people interested. Vanilla WoW was fine, but really, it should've stayed there. I had soooooooo much fun back then. Good times, but the company went for the money and blew it, and that I really hate. EDIT: dont mind teh spelling, i r tired nao... User was banned for: TIME Makes Everybody Lose "The Game". (Permanent) |
Copy Clerk Posts: 94 Joined: 20 Aug 2008 |
Yes! And not to mention that Mythic has tried and succeeded with flying colors in their first game's RvR, I have a great faith in them that Warhammer's RvR will be great, and like you said, they can focus on these key gameplay elements since GW has the entire IP covered, and EA has all the money in the world from their questionable, yet improving(vastly, though it pains me to say it XD) business practices. |
Games Editor  Posts: 4271 Joined: 20 Dec 2005     | RvR is a great concept, and I think Warhammer should be solid, though I do have concerns from what I've seen and played. I can't give Mythic a free pass for cutting the content they did; I certainly understand *why* they did it, but it's still a tremendous let-down. Warhammer's challenge is going to be convincing people it's not just a WoW clone, because for the first five or so levels that's exactly what it feels like: a slower, clunkier, less polished WoW. RvR and high level play might be great, but if that's the first impression a lot of people get then it'll be an uphill battle for Mythic. The instanced PvP scenarios won't help - though to their credit, they feel a bit more "fully implemented" than Battlegrounds, since the game is being developed around them from the start instead of adding them later. Warhammer won't be a perfect game like some are expecting. It should be a solid game that appeals heavily to the PvP niche crowd, and Mythic has experience and a well-known IP (that might not have the recognition or popularity of Warcraft, but it's definitely a beloved franchise in tis own right). It won't "kill" WoW, and anybody who's expecting it to is honestly kidding themselves. Mythic itself doesn't expect it to "kill" WoW. If WAR gets one million subscribers, it'll be in a solid second place as far as the market is concerned (and more than all but a handful of titles in the past) ... but WoW will still have ten times the subscribers. I hope it's successful, though. After all, there's room for more than one blockbuster MMO, and competition - and choice - only benefits the consumer. If both WAR and WoW are huge, it encourages both Mythic and Blizzard to step up their games (which is sort of what we're seeing with Wrath of the Lich King IMO, a much more ambitious expansion than Burning Crusade was). But if you ask me, I came back from PAX being ten times more impressed with LotRO: Mines of Moria than I was WAR. |
Video Producer  Posts: 1111 Joined: 19 Feb 2006    | I've tried to avoid this thread but it finally pulled me in. You are championing a cause that's not even in the arena. I'm not sure what standard copyright law is, but for the sake of argument let's say that it's 15 cents on the dollar. Don't you think that if there was any bad blood between the 2 companies or if Games Workshop thought for a second they could win the case they would go for it? I for one have thoroughly enjoyed both universes. I had fun with tabletop Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. I miss my Black Templar army. The Warcraft, Starcraft, and Dawn of War series were all excellent. I have/had fun with World of Warcraft and Warhammer Online( only got to play for the preview weekend so far though). I wish both companies success in their future endeavors and hope they continue to put out quality work. If you want to dislike Blizzard then by all means go ahead. I am not going to stop you, but your argument is flawed. |
Muckraker  Posts: 258 Joined: 3 Sep 2008    | A good read but i think we all know about this little thing called conspiracy theories.. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Sep 2008  | This is all public record I'm sure. It's PAINFULLY obvious that Blizzard cloned the Warhammer IP and made trivial changes. I just wish I knew where to look for the official documents. In the meantime, here's the lawyer that represented Games Workshop: http://www.ggfirm.com/people/attorneys/Moss Click on the "Entertainment & IP Experience" tab. At the bottom it reads: "Represented Games Workshop in connection with a comparison of similarities between its "Warhammer" games and Blizzard Entertainment's "Warcraft" franchise; the matter was resolved without litigation after Games Workshop set forth its demands" |
Beat Writer  Posts: 134 Joined: 22 Sep 2008    | So your argument is you really like warhammer despite being inferior (if still good, fyi I play both and yes, Warhammer is almost compleatly a wow clone, right down the the tallent trees, raid groups and quests, every single aspect of the game that I have seen has been identical to WoW, and while warhammer itself may have come first every aspect of warhammer online came second and verbatum from wow) because you heard it did some stuff before blizzard? Thats neat. Whatever your point the important part is you just sided with EA over Blizzard...thats kinda...terrible. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Sep 2008 | Chase211, If you've been playing, or even merely sampling, MMOs for a while you'd realize that Blizzard replicated many winning strategies and design concepts from other games when they created World of Warcraft. There's nothing wrong with that, mind you, standing on the shoulders of giants and all that. WoW wasn't a paradigm shifting game that spawned the design/genre. Blizzard merely took lots of good ideas from previous MMOs, rejected a lot of bad ones, built upon the core concepts, and transformed the industry not through innovation but rather through raw commercial success. So, it's rather asinine to criticize Mythic for emulating many aspects of World of Warcraft. I would like to point out, though, that Warhammer has introduced many innovative things - such as public quests and the open partying system. Warhammer has also refined and built upon ideas from Warcraft, such as streamlining the talent tree idea with the Mastery System, adding a secondary specialization tree that is empowered by RvR (PvP) experience, and adding additional depth with the morale and tactical skills (here's a good article explaining the customization system of WAR: http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/09/22/play-logs-week-five-of-warhammer-online-pc). * And as an aside, it's hard to appear snarky and clever when you exhibit atrocious grammar and a lack of knowledge on the subject you're lambasting someone about. And yes, good grammar is in the forum rules (you should read them some time). |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 358 Joined: 9 Nov 2007    | I think it doesn't even really matter that much what is 'stolen' from the universe and what not. I think Blizzard game have been such huge successes because the gameplay is great; character are balanced quite well (rts in special) and their interface and game controls are sublime. I think Diablo is one of the games with the best controls. You only need a mouse. That is what made Blizzard great. After all, they aren't the only company to publish games in the themes (fantasy, warhammer like, space alien warfare, etc) but they have been most successful at it. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 672 Joined: 8 Nov 2007     | T3chn0s1s: I've been having this discussion for almost ten years now, there's so many uncorroborated muck out on the 'net that you'll never dig out a truth from anyone anymore. From what I've heard over that time (alluded from White Dwarf articles, interviews and the like) is that it was indeed originally a deal between Blizzard and Games Workshop to create games based on the Warhammer IP's or they at least allowed it and worked with them on the groundwork. But in the same vein to the legendary Philips/Nintendo deal that created the awful Zelda games Games Workshop backed out at a certain point or didn't negotiate a good contract on it (just a lump sum of money for use of parts of the IP instead of a royalties type thing). In hindsight this was a disastrous move on their part as Blizzard simply tweaked what they had (with GW's consent) and released pretty successful software that would grow into the massive giant it is today. Whether it was an official deal or no, the two companies had some kind of communication or relation. It's no small miracle seeing that link as Andy Chambers (one of the early big guys at the GW offices, a name you'll find in many 40K books) works for Blizzard these days (since 2005). edit: |
Anonymous Source Posts: 8 Joined: 23 Sep 2008 | Yea Vortigar. Until I happened upon this forum and saw all of the aggressive, self-assured posts in this thread, I thought that it was common knowledge that Games Workshop had raised ire over "Warcraft". I mean, did anyone truly believe that Blizzard got away scott-free with cloning the decades-old intellectual property of another company, especially with how litigious our society has become? |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 623 Joined: 15 Jul 2008     | This thread is now about The Lost Vikings and how awesome a new game would be. 3 way multiplayer co-op awesomeness for the win. Seriously though, who the fuck cares about who copied who? I really can't believe you guys are arguing about something that happened so many years ago and was resolved already. If we're going to rant about Blizzard let's instead talk about how Blizzard has been milking the same three franchises for an absurdely long time. They might as well change their name to Sequels'r'us. And in conclusion, Lemonade is really tastey. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 182 Joined: 20 Aug 2008   | After reading this with an unhealthy amount of cringing, I have decided to spout my opinion on this with which nothing will be done unless I start calling names and use naughty language. So, you fuckers, listen the hell up. Whenever someone makes something new and unique, it lands on the huge dung heap of "public property". This is as true now as it has been when we could first convey stories to others. You can add and remove bits as you see fit, which is what enriches the entire world. As long as you do not use names that have been secured with a few thousand of copyrights, trademarks and all rights reserved notes, you can steal all you want. If I were to write a story about Thrall and made money off of it, people at Blizzard would go nuts and sue me. However, were I to write about a person called Slave, a greenish person raised by Humans, they could not do me any harm since I did not actually rip off anybody. While this looks as if I am against Pyronox, I assure you, I am very much on his side. I just wanted to get that out of the way. I too despise Blizzard for this uninspired rip-off. They are indeed making large amounts of money off of something someone else did all the work for. I care about Blizzard ripping off Games Workshop because of fanboys who do indeed claim their deity did everything before anybody else. In no way am I saying that Blizzard makes bad games (except for world of warcraft. SHOVE IT!) but they haven't gone very far in creating their own continuities. In much of the same vein except different, I am pissed off by Lord of the Ring fanboys/girls that proclaim the movies tell us everything we need to know before, when asked who Tom Bombadil is, or what a Black Numenorean is, they break out in a sweaty fit of rage, proclaiming me a heathen. In no way to I cherish the illusion that, if my book is published and it sells well, all my ideas will land on the same free store for ideas that Tolkien, GW and any other successful venture's ideas ended up on. Only to be used, adapted and dropped on the heap after use. For the next row of "thieves" to take their turn. |
Time Lord  Posts: 10089 Joined: 13 Feb 2008    | Blizzard make good entertainment but wouldn't know a storyline or characterisation if it bit them in the ass. Neither could do the other job. A collabaration would have been far more appropriate. But if we're talking about ripping off...we could go back through Everquest, Ultima, Hack on one side; Warhammer, Dungeons and Dragons on another and Moorcock, Wells, Verne on another. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 607 Joined: 4 Sep 2008   | You actually like Hellgate London? What is wrong with you? I'd rather pay to have someone pee on me than have to play that again. Thank God they didn't get more than $5 from me because I preordered after playing the beta with my friend telling me "Oh man, it's going to be great because they'll patch it up and it will be AWESOME!" I just... I'm sorry but I can't really find sympathy with you if you actually liked HG:L. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 857 Joined: 24 Mar 2008   |
Yes you got beaten to that little tidbit in the original flipping post... Dammit people, don't do that, I can understand not reading every single reply to a thread, but at least read the first post before commenting... yoish. As for the "blizzard hatred", I hate the new Warhammer title based solely on the craptastic public face put forward by their lead game designer. Which is about as legitimate as your feelings towards Blizzard. But, you did not mention Vivendi once in this epic post of hatred. I might have been more willing to give you your dues if you had, as it stands you come of us uniformed and, therefore, unjustified. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 210 Joined: 15 Sep 2008   | I don't want to be Joe Bitruiner, but Diablo I and II were not that great. Don't believe me? Play them again. I still play D2 on a regular basis, but it's become a timesink while I'm waiting for other things to happen, not a means of having fun. |
On the Record  Posts: 7043 Joined: 22 Aug 2008     |
Hang on a sec. One moment you're harping about how Warcraft and Starcraft are copying Warhammer fantasy and 40K, and then you think they should keep making them? And what's wrong with the Starcraft lore that requires 'consistent changes'? To go back to your 40k comparison, I can't name a single character from the 40k universe as compelling as Raynor, Kerrigan or Tassadar, especially not the 40K video games. Feel free to educate me though. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1394 Joined: 31 Aug 2008 |
I hear they made their cases with cat skin. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 623 Joined: 15 Jul 2008 |
Ibram Gaunt and the other major players in the Tanith First and Only immediately spring to my mind as does Gregor Eisenhorn. Do yourself a favor and check out Dan Abnett's Warhammer 40k books. They're really fun reads with tons of really well done characters. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 356 Joined: 28 Aug 2008  | Actually in extension to my previous post. I'm probably getting back into wow, miss the people i knew on there, Viherpeukalo, Ratoon, Torax. Zwix and Xander were awesome ;_; |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 574 Joined: 2 Jun 2008    | I hate WoW, pointless hours I'll never get back... Still, I don't blame WoW for it, it's my fault I let myself play it for so many hours... I just think Blizzard is greedy, VERY greedy. They won't let you buy or even give away characters, why? because it means less time and money you'll be spending instead of weeks trying to get to lvl 70. Doesn't mean I hate Blizzard though, just WoW. I loved starcraft and diablo. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 165 Joined: 17 Apr 2008  | I don't hate Blizzard for this and I'll tell you why. Yeah, they were heavily influenced - to perhaps the point of theft - by certain aspects of the 40k and warhammer universe. But are they games popular BECAUSE of that? *Hell* no. They didn't just waltz in and stick the franchise on mediocre software and have all the fans of the series run over to it - most people aren't even aware of the influence. They built damn good games. They continued to provide support - meaningful support - for those games for years and years after they stopped being major sellers. I can't comment on wow, but in the case of starcraft and DII they provided expansions which really added something of worth to the game. And in the case of starcraft they told that story very well - with actors and characters and maps that actually seemed to fit together nicely. People complain about them milking the same franchises for years but honestly, is anyone arguing they're producing the same game over and over? Each rendition is completely different, built from the ground up and it *really* shows. For all their lack of innovation you can buy Blizzard software and know you're getting a good game which you're going to be able to play for years and years when you get the urge. And THAT is what made them successful: not whatever creative licences they've taken with other people's property. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1540 Joined: 6 Apr 2008 |
Umm, I thought it was because people would then be making money off something that wasn't theirs to begin. And even if let's say you were allowed to just give your characters away, don't you think that just gives a further incentive to just outright sell them? So, what, you should get paid for what you so described above as 'pointless hours'? |
Anonymous Source Posts: 10 Joined: 22 Sep 2008 | man, I made a lovely 4 paragraph reply and I clicked the wrong button... so your gonna the the short and rushed POS version. Blizzard used Warhammer to make starcraft, the GW blatantly ripped off Starcraft to the tee with Dawn of WAR... but I don't give a shit, I love them both like children, and if all you can do is crusader about, bitching about who ripped what off, then your not doing it right. Cause despite all the glorious arguments and Yahtzee quotes, I'm about to get up and get my coffee before I go to wal-mart and get my WoW game card cause I'm a fucking MMORPG addict. But to put my point any anyway, I love WoW but their Game Masters are tards in most cases, and the community on PvP servers suck. I almost prefer getting mass ganked and tea bagged by 40 level 70 allies when compared to even talking to anyone else cause all they do is tell you that you don't know what your doing and if your not speced exactly like them then you suck, And I damn well expect that WHO (Warhammer online... funny ain't it?) will be exactly the same. So you guys can bitch about this till the cows come home, but I'm pretty sure that besides other crusaders, no one gives a shit. Author's note: I want a cookie. |
Muckraker  Posts: 305 Joined: 25 Sep 2008  | Dear lord. This is far and away the most ridiculous thread i've ever seen. I absolutely commend the posters for their intelligent posts, most forums are filled with idiots, and it's why i love these forums. However, i have no choice but to condemn you for choosing this subject for discussion. As i see it, and you can correct me if i'm wrong, the writer of the opening post is angry, furious even, that blizzard is rich off of GW's hard hard work, however, he is speaking in entirety of the IP, and in every post dismisses the interface. WHAT!? Since when did games stop being about gameplay?! I agree that story is important, and the world the game is set in as well, but neither of those matter if the gameplay is not up to snuff. That is what sells games. That is what sells blizzard games. Furthermore, they did NOT STEAL the IP. It has been repeatedly established that GW GAVE IT TO THEM. There was some compensation, probably a lump sum, and it was settled out of court, so there aren't any records of it. However, even on that lawyer's website, it says that there was contention, and that it was settled. That is a HUGE hole in your argument. Because it means any work done by GW was given willingly and with full knowledge. Now, as for the Condor studio thing, it is indeed unfortunate, but as was stated earlier, this is a common practice of the industry, especially by EA, but not overly common with blizzard. Blizzard makes good games and provides good support for them. That's why they make money. Basically your whole point is moot. Overall, i seriously doubt that my post will greatly change your point of view, you seem too set in your ways to accept any other possibilities, (no offense intended). All of this has more or less been stated earlier, i just wanted to say it in my own words. Man, i'm sleepy. Bedtime now, at 3:45 in the morning. Heh... 3 4 5... P.s. I made this account specifically to make this post. Good times... |
On the Record Posts: 7043 Joined: 22 Aug 2008 |
Direct contradictions to yourself in the space of 10 words. Good job.
if you believe that your time spent on WoW was pointless, than I call into question any time you spent on any game, ever, and would say that it's pointless. Why? Because I'm making the assumption that you enjoyed playing WoW even though you're bitching about it now and I'm a firm believer that time you spend enjoying yourself, be it playing a game, making love to a beautiful woman or drinking a pint of proper English country ale, is not time wasted. (I don't equate those three examples on the same level, just to be clear. Ale is WAY above beautiful woman ;D) The fact that you said it's pointless makes me think that A) You think all gaming is pointless because it has no real productivity beyond personal enjoyment or B) You didn't enjoy playing WoW, in which case spending "countless hours" playing it is...well, madness. Why do something with no productivity which you don't enjoy of your own volition? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1540 Joined: 6 Apr 2008 |
I guess they could pull the addiction card out? But, I don't really accept that crap about videogames or MMOs...I mean, -yes- a person can get addicted to them, but the product themselves are in no way more addictive than say compulsive t.v. watching. Yes, it's designed to keep your interest in the best possible way it can, but if you end up a slave to it, I really think that's a fault with the person and not the product. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 160 Joined: 25 Sep 2008 | I'll agree with Gothmogll. If you get addicted, its your fault. If you don't want to leave it, its your fault. Its your choice and its your responsibility to get addicted to what you want. And its our fault that this game is now famous and probably can never get bankrupt. |
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I only read the first few sentences of your wall of text, but after burning crusade and arena's and such I began to dislike Blizzard, I wouldn't call it hate, unless they somehow fail Starcraft 2 or Diablo III.
And after WoW I quit MMO's. Though Warhammer interests me (I had it pre-ordered, but I just won't have the time) and i've met Paul Barnett. (The developers came to my school to talk about game development as they're 30 min. or so away :D)