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Anonymous Source  Posts: 4 Joined: 4 Sep 2008  | |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 862 Joined: 22 Jun 2008     | EDIT: Nevermind. I read the question wrong. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 4 Joined: 4 Sep 2008 | what im trying to say is that soon we wont. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 71 Joined: 17 Aug 2008     | ok 1 im not reading ALL that but the wiis annoying when i get a few friends together to play super smash brothers and reality fades away in the "funness" when i wakeup their are 2 dead people with my wii controler stuck in there temples o-o |
Copy Clerk Posts: 71 Joined: 17 Aug 2008 | oook i read parts of it this time the way game companys make muny is by remakeing old games and selling them to the younger generation that wasnt around when the older games like nitendo 64 were out or the super nitendo before that in which case why would they target the older more intellegent generation with complex games when the could blow up lil pink squares and make the same money with less work selling it to 6yr olds on the wii |
On the Record  Posts: 6226 Joined: 10 Mar 2008    | I've had this discussion with my friend before, and even he's not to happy with the way Nintendo is doing things now (he's a Niny-boy). It started after the failure of the Gamecube, the DS with it's "innovative" touch screen thing and easy to develope for hardware (when was the last time you've seen a Hanna Montana/That's So Raven/High School Musical platformer on the PSP?) Though I've narrowed it down to this; Nintendo is trying to sell you it's peripherals I find it hard to believe that someone could counteract my statement. If you need proof of Nintendo selling peripherals, just look at Wii Play. It's still at the top 20 charts, why is that? Because it comes with a controller, and any sensible person would think "might as well get a game with my controller". Even I fell for that. More examples; Wii Fit=Balance board, Mario Kart Wii=Wheel Peripheral, Wii Sports Resort=Wii Motion+, Wii itself=Wii Sports. I would explain the other two (Sony and Microsoft) but I don't want to distract the main issue here. Nintendo's a business, no matter what you may think, they want money and Casual gaming may very well be their current niche in the gaming world. But Nintendo and the Wii is definately a "gateway" dru-ehem, gateway console. My friend started with the wii, but now his trigger finger thirsts for some blood and eventually he's going to get a PS3 for many games that couldn't be possible on the Wii like God of War III, inFamous, LittleBigPlanet, Final Fantasy 13 (versus to), and some other games that he's interested in. If you're a hardcore gamer, and you start with a Wii, what i've found is that usually (and this applies to me) they won't find it as much fun because it doesn't have as many "hardcore" titles as some of the other consoles (and NO, don't go on a list of how there are "hardcore" titles for the Wii. Almost all of them (besides No More Heroes) were made to give casual gamers very easy access to play the game. That doesn't mean it's not a "hardcore" game, it just means that it can be to simplistic to the more "hardcore" players). However, if you start with a Wii, you'll want a more hardcore gaming platform (no, don't say PC because not everyone's tech savvy, and NO don't tell me how "it's easy to build your PC! Everyone works with one!" because both my dad's co-workers who don't even know the basics of programming and the stupid Half Life 2 demo that won't work on my PC are proof of contradictory to your claims.) and you'll be playing both of them lovingly. INFACT, this exact same thing happened with my friend when he got the Gamecube. First he got a gamecube, then he got a PS2, and he played them both very much until he got a Wii. Now he neglects both of them, but STILL. I just realised that! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2753 Joined: 20 Feb 2008    | I did it! I read through the wall o'text. Ok you are saying that the "casual games" are being bought by alot of "casual gamers" which outnumber the "other gamers" (or would you/they prefer to be called hardcore?). So since the CGs are buying casual games by the truckloads you fear that everyone will start making the casual games. And I am sure this apocalypse will take place since no one cares about art or making a grand game but everyone is just in it for the $$$$ |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1129 Joined: 11 Dec 2007    | I agree that casual games are coming out in the truck load, but soon enough, all those third party developers releasing heaps upon heaps of crap-tastic casual games will eventually turn the tides on the market. Wii fit, is in itself, a way for me to stay somewhat in shape/flexible, and I don't really consider it a game. I mean, it is really just a glorified Tai Bo class. As for it outselling twilight princess, that sucks (because TP is one of the best games I have played) but oh well, they do stock wii's and wii fit in nursing homes and that really isn't my demographic. Developers, I would like to believe, are in it to make a good game, and not just cash in on a easily made game, it is a profession and people generally treat it like one. |
Muckraker  Posts: 246 Joined: 6 Aug 2008   |
How are those games not "actual games"? They don't cease being games simply because you have no interest in playing them. Attitudes like that are the main reason why some people who have less time to devote to gaming don't get into gaming. There's always some little elitist prick who will deride them for not being "hardcore" enough or not spending hours of time they don't have to complete a game within the first week of its release. Casual gamers are still gamers, and as such they deserve our respect just as much as the so-called "hardcore" gamers. My wife is a casual gamer, I'm somewhere in the middle, I used to be a hardcore gamer, but marriage, a full-time job, and a 3 year old son ended those days for me. I don't look down upon her for her choice in games, the fact that she even plays games is great. Hell, even I play some casual games from time to time. Some of them are pretty damn fun. The only problem I see with the casual gaming trend is that we're being inundated with too much garbage. You can only remake BeJeweled so many times before it gets tired. And, how many different variations of a tower defense game do we really need? A little more innovation and variety in the casual gaming scene would be great, otherwise it's going to become stagnant and all those casuals that we've gained into our particular sub-culture will grow weary of the same old shit and abandon gaming. I guess the point I'm trying to get across is this: there are plenty of games out there and plenty of game makers. Not every game will appeal to every person, but that's the beauty of gaming. There's something there for everyone, and personally I think casual titles are helping the gaming industry. They are creating a very large new customer base, and some of those new gamers will branch out into more involved genres of gaming and cause additional units to be sold. Additional units moving means more capital going to the game makers, more capital to the game makers means they can make more games, more games means more fun for us all, casual and hardcore alike. So, grow up and just let them be. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 621 Joined: 21 Aug 2008   | This is a little off-topic. But could someone please define casual gamers for me. Is it someone who play casual games? Or is it someone who plays games casually? |
Muckraker Posts: 246 Joined: 6 Aug 2008 | Both. |
BANNED  Posts: 6317 Joined: 29 Nov 2007     | Nintendo looked at all it's fans and said, "Hey, wait what? You guys are our fans? Go get a real life." If you think about it Nintendo has never been hardcore when it came to gaming. User was banned for: The hypocrisy is KILLING me.. (Permanent) |
King of the Yetis  Posts: 2539 Joined: 15 Jul 2008   | You know, I'm sure there's a bunch of guys on a pc forum somewhere saying exactly the same thing about the 360 and the ps3. Oh and I'm sure there's a bunch of guys playing chess somewhere saying the same thing about PC's. Oh and I'm sure there's a bunch of guys somewhere running woolly mammoths off cliffs that say the same thing about chess. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1195 Joined: 31 Jul 2008    | I don't want to sound too vague and stupid, but I don't think Nintendo knows what the hell they're doing anymore. I completely understand that they're just riding the money waves of casual gamers, toddlers, and women, but I'm almost at the point where I think it's completely by accident. I've had my Wii since launch, and I look back at it and all the Nintendo standards I have for it, and feel depressed because most let me down and I have no desire to play them again. Then I look to the post E3 '08 future, and see nothing on the horizon. I see Nintendo as pushing gaming as a market and business, and not so much as a source of entertainment and fun. At least Microsoft and Sony cut us a break and throw us a bone every now and then, but Nintendo is like a condescending abusive spouse. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 846 Joined: 9 May 2008   |
I think it's a bit of both. Some people play games casually. They play all kinds of genres of games, not just the puzzle games, but only play them a few hours a week. Then there are gamers who play "casual games" like Bejeweled and tetris, but play them for hours and hours. I've seen gamers who play mostly puzzle and those free flash based games online but play them as hard core as gamers who play shooters and RPG's. It's like trying to define what "Alternative rock" is. There are all kinds of casual gamers. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2113 Joined: 15 Jun 2008   |
Casual gaming is a label applied by self-proclaimed "hardcore" gamers who think that games with topend graphics and lots of violence are somehow inherently better than any game that doesn't involve shooting something with lots of well-rendered gore. To answer the OP, who said to look at GC and say what they've got, I say: Just from my library. Most of these, I fail to see how they lie in any "casual" designation, at least any more than games for other consoles. But of course it doesn't sate our collective thirst for blood like the vampires we are, so of course it's for kids, because no self-respecting adult doesn't like gore. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1611 Joined: 27 Mar 2008    | So there's a lot of third party casual games, so what? Nintendo put out like 4 or 5 and they're suddenly the anti-christ? I'd say no, I'm not tired of it. Casual games are meant to be fun, which is what gaming use to be about. Now it seems every game I play is like a job, and (to me) it gets tiring. Also, it's not Nintendo's fault a lot of third party people are making casual games, and that the "hard core" games keep getting delayed.(Look at Disaster Day of Crisis) Also there were a lot of "hardcore" games on the GCN, and to come for the Wii. You've to know where to look to find such things is the problem. Plus, I'd rather have hordes of "casual games" thrown at me instead of generic RPGs and FPSs. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2906 Joined: 10 Apr 2008 | there are more casual gamers. Many more. And most of the reason Nintendo made wii and those games was to attract more girls - and it works, obviously |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 512 Joined: 27 Aug 2008   | I am not sure why "causer gamers" would be seen as ruining your gaming mainstream most casual games are popular and sell alot as they are fun and allow you to spend 1 or less hours playing a game and relax. The thing I hate is how it seems every new game is a life sim with you need to eat and you need to go collect 10 coconuts then I'll be able to advance and collect 10 walnuts now just to see some amazing CGI cutscene then back to collecting coconuts for a few grinding hours. You mention Bioshock but Bioshock itself was a casual game in the way it was simplified from System Shock 2 and allowed you to play for 1-2 hours and get somewhere even dying in the game wasn't frustration it allowed you to shoot and kill and advance with no hurdles to jump why it was fun is you could say it was made for a more mainstream audience. P.S I so far have enjoyed my Wii far more then my 360 on just being able to quickly explain how to play a game to a friend and then its all fun. Most of the 360 games seem be online only these days. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1611 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 | They believe that because "casual games" make so much money that every company will resort to making them. |
Paperboy  Posts: 22 Joined: 4 Sep 2008 | The casual market is absolutely MASSIVE in comparison to the specific 'gamer' label. It's evident everywhere: the Wii has infiltrated millions of living rooms, retirement homes and even cruise ships. It allows parents to join in with what their kids are interested in, without having to worry about complex button sequences or advanced tactics required from many modern day fighters/shooters etc. The elderly like it because it's something to get them moving, without being overly strenuous. Something as simple as Wii Tennis can do wonders for joint flexibility, which is a major selling point for old people. The Wii has become kind of a pop culture symbol, just like Macs. It's in movies (Tropic Thunder is a prime example), it's on TV, it's everywhere. I think one of the major draws to the console is that it essentially lets people game without people calling them a gamer, which is still somewhat of a negative stigma in society. It's good for a few minutes of carefree fun, where you don't need to get involved in a game's story to be entertained. It's just something that people can pick up, have fun with, and put down again. As for the whole Wii Fit deal, most people think 'Hey! I can play videogames and lose weight! Cool!'. I would say that their money would be better spent on, say, a gym membership, but I can understand where they're coming from. It's been statistically proven that approaching menial tasks as a quest or challenge in a videogame produces greater results with a higher efficiency. Just look at Weight Watchers and their 'points' system. You have a certain amount of points dedicated to different foods, and you have to manage your points to last you throughout the day, and then replenish your points while sleeping, and then continuing the next day. Of course, with the Wii's immense popularity, of course there's going to be imitators. Microsoft wants in on the casual market, and it's extremely evident that their goal is to steal market share from Nintendo. Personally, it just looks like a stupid, cheap knockoff, but let's see what the general public thinks of it before we condemn Microsoft's iffy marketing strategies. The downside to this 'casual craze' is that the hardcore crowd is getting screwed over. Nintendo basically has nothing left for its fans, and are just letting third-party companies push out shovelware after shovelware, and the market is flooded with terrible games. At least Microsoft/Sony have their respective 'real' games to fall back on if the casual market dies out, but Nintendo are in a very precarious position. I doubt anyone will read this all, but props if you do! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1307 Joined: 3 Sep 2008    | What constitutes a casual game exactly? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1611 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 | I read it all, and like I said for "real games" on the Wii they keep getting horrible delays. Nintendo can't control what third parties make, it's not their fault developers are using the system for so many "casual games". Also, some of the sales for Wiifit are because of the balance board because a couple of games plan on using itlater, like Skate it! and Don King Presents. |
Paperboy Posts: 22 Joined: 4 Sep 2008 |
I'd say a casual game is one where the mechanics of the game are instantly comfortable and usable by any person of any skill level. The difference between, say, Wii Tennis, and Soul Caliber 4, is that in Wii Tennis, the entire game consists of swinging the remote around. That's it. No super-mega-ultra-hyper combo's to memorise, you just hit a virtual ball to a friend. In SC4, while there is that element of pick-up-and-play, there's also this extremely deep fighting system that takes a large amount of playing to become competent at it.
While it's true that Nintendo can't control what third parties are making, perhaps they should consider making some more core gaming titles. They've been surviving on Mario, Metroid, and Zelda for how long now? A new IP would go a LONG way in revitalizing their starving fanbase, in my opinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but do Nintendo really have anything else to offer now that they've released something for their three main series'? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1307 Joined: 3 Sep 2008 |
Thanks for clearing that up. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 70 Joined: 2 May 2008     | Fuck man I'm so tired of this 'casual' and 'hardcore' gamer shit! If you really were a 'hardcore' gamer, you'd game anything, as long as it was fun and you had five free minutes. The term hardcore has been taken by gamers and abused in EVERY IMAGINABLE WAY in order to pervert the definition into a simple mantra: 'boobs, weapons and swears a hardcore games makes'. Seriously. The stuff that STARTED gaming today would be defined as 'casual', and summarily hated. If you think that you can't have fun with a game that's without some form of 'adolescent maturity' factor (read above mantra), or with a game that doesn't try to gnaw your face of from jump, that's fine...limit yourself to playing the same stinking games over and over again and STOP WHINING ABOUT IT! I swear, this self-definition of what is a 'real' game is quite possibly the worst form of narcissistic mental-masturbation I've seen since reading Ayn Rand. The worst part about it is that Rand could actually ENTERTAIN me. Summary: YOU ARE NOT A HARDCORE GAMER IF YOU CANNOT AND ARE NOT WILLING TO HAVE FUN PLAYING GAMES OTHER THAN WHAT YOU THINK SHOULD BE MADE/PLAYED! Glad i finally got that off my chest. |
Paperboy Posts: 22 Joined: 4 Sep 2008 |
While I agree that casual gaming will never envelop the core crowd, it seems that the 'Big 3' are placing a LOT of marketing emphasis on snagging people who don't really play games, and that's becoming a bit of a worry. Like was mentioned before, why create a vast, enthralling world full of character, depth, and charisma, spending millions of dollars on a multi-year development cycle, when you can make more money by knocking up a game that solely involves shooting a ball into a hole (Peggle, I'm looking at you*) in the space of a few weeks for a greatly reduced cost? In the end, the company wants to make the most money from the least amount of effort involved, and at the moment, casual games are the way to do so, and hence, quality of future titles might suffer. *Peggle is amazing fun, by the way. Spent about 7 hours straight at a mate's place one night playing through to completion. We're both Grand Peggle Masters now!
You're basically right, but we're not discussing what makes you a 'hardcore' gamer vs a 'casual' one. There's clearly a large chasm between the two TYPES of games, where one might have no depth at all, and the other will take hundreds of hours to complete. Of course a hardcore gamer can play casual games, but it doesn't work so well the other way around. I can't imagine many 70 year olds genuinely being interested in say, Gears of War or World of Warcraft. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1611 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 |
Nintendo's making Disaster Day of Crisis, and it's said Nintendo of America is bringing Project H.A.M.M.E.R. back, along with a few new ideas. The new ideas keep getting put on hold so the teams can work on other games. |
Paperboy Posts: 22 Joined: 4 Sep 2008 |
Thanks for clearing that up for me, I can't say I'm 100% up to date on what Nintendo's up to these days. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2904 Joined: 12 May 2008    |
Project HAMMER! Yes! Maybe I'll find some use for my Wii. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1611 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 |
It's hard to be, they're so hush hush about everything. They don't let anything out these days because there's non-stop delays. If you thought Brawl was bad Disaster Day of Crisis was suppose to be a launch game. After they realised all these problems and errors and such they stopped announcing a lot of games so early 'till they're somewhat close to a release. As for the Project H.A.M.M.E.R. remember I put "it's said". A worker for Nintend of America said to his class he was going to work on it again, but Nintendo never said that it's back into full production. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 861 Joined: 2 Apr 2008   | Put simply, the Wii is the most amazing toy ever made. The moment you start treating it like a game console, it fails. Aside from the seriously retarded Halo Fanboys and WoWtards, I don't think anyone who plays videogames wants to. Seriously, would you rather drive a Dodge Viper in Gran Turismo 5, or drive a Dodge Viper round a racetrack for real? Obviously, you'd rather do the real thing. The reason games are popular should be obvious by now; we CAN'T do the real thing. Closest I can get is jumping in my Ford Focus and putting the hammer down on the motorway or a quiet country road (whilst praying there's no cops or speed cameras around). It just isn't the same, especially when you factor in risk and cost. This is where the Wii wins. If I can't go swordfighting, I'll settle for playing a swordfighting game... but I'd rather play a game where I actually get to swing something around as if I really am using a sword, as opposed to mashing buttons on a controller. This is why the Wii works, up to a point. The problems start when you realise that its clever motion-sensor setup is actually counter-productive in many cases. Take Mario Kart Wii. I truly HATE using the Wiimote because it usually leaves me skidding off the wrong way. I can drive, I can drive well, and given the chance I could throw a 150cc go-kart around the track for real... and I know damn well that if I turned left and initiated a powerslide IT WOULD NOT SLIDE RIGHT! Thus, the Gamecube controller wins because, though less realistic, it at least responds to my commands. The final appeal of the Wii is the silliness of it. Just as with Guitar Hero, nobody playing Wii Sports can deny it's silly seeing four people stood up with little white sticks pretending they're at Wimbledon. You also can't deny it's bloody good fun! The Wii holds a monopoly on party games, but it's not fit for anything else. |
Muckraker  Posts: 247 Joined: 12 Aug 2008 | I would say I am a "Hardcore" gamer, I love games that I can play and then 30 hours later realise I have been fired from my job, lost my girlfriend and failed University. I have my xbox 360 and a PC for this. But sometime, In my lunch breaks or whatever, I want to play a game that I won't get too sucked in by, just something to kill and an hour with, a casual game if you will and that's why I also own a Wii. There is a market for both type of game and plenty of damn good reasons to both, your not going to convert "casual gamers" into "hardcore" ones, but its damn easy for "hardcore" gamers to enjoy casual games... They just have to remove there heads from their own arse's first. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 70 Joined: 2 May 2008 | Yeah...it is more about the games i can somewhat see that....i suppose i just let the anger build up in me for a little too long before i wrote my post. I'll think about it more and post again. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2190 Joined: 4 Jun 2008   | I see both sides of the casual gamer...white rectangle thing. On the one hand you can't turn around and disregard them for not playing 'real games' since, after all, what is a 'real game' then? On the other hand, this doesn't give casual gamers an excuse to get agitated at more 'elite' gamers for demaning more of a challange from games (not every game has to be compiled of nothing but minigames...even if it does make a nice change of pace evry now and then). |
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Why is it that games like Wii Fit, Wii Sports, Wii Play, and games like it sell way more copies than actual games? I cant understand why anyone would rather buy a Wii and crap like this than Bioshock, Dead Rising, or Overlord (I thought DR and Overlord were well done and a fresh take on the genre). According to VG charts Wii Fit sold 6,300,000 (in 29 weeks) so far while Overlord (361,414 in 57 weeks thats only the 360 version) and Dead Rising (1,251,889 in 106 weeks) hardly sold any in comparrison. Does anyone else see this as really screwed up? On the SNES there were tons of great games and you had everything from RPGs to Racing games. Now look at the Wii or GC and tell me what youve got. I can understand that the competition has gotten harder and the money for them is great but thats no excuse to sell out like this. Ive had this argument befor with one of my friends who has owned every Nintendo system that I know of (he even bought all the variations of the gameboy) and his argument is always "Their just getting the money from casual gamers and then investing it in bigger projects". I dont see any big projects and I havnt seen them do anything different since Pikmin. In other words they are taking the money from casual gamers and making more games for casual gamers. That is strictly good business, but the actual real gamers are the ones who suffer. Now that Nintendo is making tons of money off of this, other companies are going to do the same. Ripping off something as gay as Miis sickens me. Look how square keeps rereleasing titles with hardly any extra content. Pretty soon we wont see games like Bioshock and the deep RPG goodness of Morrowind anymore, because itll be over the casual gamers head. Plus if im a developer why the hell am I gonna spend all that money to make a fun, interesting,imaginative and deep world when I can just make crap like Wii Play. In a just world Wii Fit would not in a million years outsell Twilight Princess. Am I the only one that thinks this or do those games I mentioned suck?