So having recently replayed the two KotOR games, as well as the demo for the upcoming Force Unleashed game, got a quick question to anyone who knows slightly more about Star Wars than me. During the events of KotOR 1+2, you hear from countless sources that Mandalorians are the best of the best. They were the Spartans of Star Wars, for lack of a better descriptor. They burned countless planets and it was only thanks to Revan that the Mandalorian crusades were pushed back.

Fast forward umpteen years to the 'prequel' Star Wars films. Jango Fett is a Mandalorian, as far as I can tell. He's also fairly good at combat although he did get sufficiently owned by Mace Windu, Boba Fett similarly, is fairly able though if I recall they both make the mistake of using blasters against a Jedi. HK-47 would be disappointed. Now the clone troopers were born from Jango Fett's cells, and these eventually became Stormtroopers of the Empire. So my question is: Why are forces born from the identical genetic material of a Mandalorian so wank in combat? Is it simply for dramatic effect? Cos in general, it seems a Stormtrooper would be lucky to hit the broad side of a Star Destroyer from ten feet away. =/

As far as I can recall I think it's the difference in training. Mandalorians are trained from a very young age to a much better standard than the holograms and computer teaching of the clones. The training of the clones and the inherent program removes individual thaught and creativity making them only slightly superior to droids.

Thats why the Commando and ARC storm troopers were so highly regarded, their training was better and put emphasis on individuality.

I think that it said somewhere that most Clone troopers had various parts of Jango's DNA or memory removed, so that they wouldn't be too individual or dangerous.

Also, Storm Troopers are not just Clones of Fett, there are other clone groups and individuals in that army as well, I think.

Admittedly, all that is based on Battlefront and Republic Commando loading screens.

(Some Star Wars book spoilers) Well, according to many if not all of the books that were written before Lucas started making the prequels. Many if not all the Storm Troopers are not clones. It In the Thrawn Trilogy, it is mentioned how the art of cloning is lost, and the many downsides of cloning when some cloning tanks are shown. Also you meet numerous Storm Troopers in person, who are not clones, and there is another incident Kyp Duron goes to a training planet, where his decisively non clone brother was. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In short, basically all the ABY (after battle Yavin) books disagree with the prequals, and I like to follow the books instead.

yeah, Actually the Stormtroopers weren't clones. I thought they were there for a while but then i read a book called "Death Star" and the Stormtroopers were actually men hired/drafted by the Empire. Although I'm not sure what happened to the clones after the events in episode III.

Different sources conflict each other. Acording to star wars battlefront 2 some stormtroopers are clones. I think alot of the clones that died couldnt be replaced and so stormtroopers are a mix of clones and regular joes.

Ah. That would make sense. I was going with the Clone Troopers=Storm Troopers because of the campaign from Battlefront 2, where your 51st(I think) clone battalion becomes the 'right arm' of Vader as storm troopers. I wasn't aware that they stopped cloning after a point and started just recruiting any old guy. Fair enough. Thanks guys ;D

I don't think the storm troopers ever were clones, as in I don't think the emperor would be sufficiently satisfied manipulating something so soulless. He would much rather have had parents losing children and children losing fathers.

Jango was from Concorde Dawn but trained by mandalorians, hence the armour. Boba allegedly has a collection of lightsabers at some point and duels with Vader before he gets himself zapped. he also trained Han and Leia's daughter to 'take down a Jedi', so he can clearly kick some ass.

Stormtroopers are recruits more than clones, i think.

Amnestic:
Ah. That would make sense. I was going with the Clone Troopers=Storm Troopers because of the campaign from Battlefront 2, where your 51st(I think) clone battalion becomes the 'right arm' of Vader as storm troopers. I wasn't aware that they stopped cloning after a point and started just recruiting any old guy. Fair enough. Thanks guys ;D

You forget the mission where they go to the cloning labs and destroy them because rebels were using the clonetroopers against them?

You forget the mission where they go to the cloning labs and destroy them because rebels were using the clonetroopers against them?

>_> Yes. But equally you'd think they'd have that technology on hand on a world which wasn't made entirely of water. Some sort of heavily fortified world where the rebels couldn't waltz in and take it as their own, you know? =/ Whatever happened to backups?

They're clones, thats what makes the difference, the first batch was Mandalorian trained, thats why they were good. By the time of the 4th movie they're probably on their 3rd or 4th batch which was not Mandalorian trained. Also by that point, normal humans could join the stromtrooper ranks.

Well think about it it's a galaxy spaning empire, how many troops does it have? It's just more practical to hire. Also I'd imagine cloning is expensive.

Well maybe after cloning a Mandalorian, the troops would be good, but then you have to take the DNA of the clone, then continue taking previous DNA or the DNA of hired men to make more troops, and you might have a decrease in ability.

And maybe the amount of training had something to do with it.
Though my guess is just for effect, having a hyper-intelligent super-skilled force of billions would make any rebellion (even if they have a jedi and Harrison Ford) a pleasant afternoon drive through Tatooine.

That's what happens when you re-clone the same person a bajillion times...
It dilutes the DNA

Well here I come in thinking I can add to this conversation, but each poster already added one piece of the puzzle and covered all the facts.

Mandalorians are the ancestor of Jango Fett, and he wears the newest model of Mandalore armor, but he himself is not actually a Mandalorian in the sense that he never trained as one. He's one of their people, and a good fighter, but just being from Sparta didn't make one a Spartan warrior, same with Jango.

Boba Fett is a clone much like the clone army copies, but he was special. Boba had nothing removed from Jango's template, and is again the closest thing to a Mandalorian we see in the shows. Boba later (in the comics/novels) does receive the training and wind up a full-fledged mandalorian, but that is post-film. For those who didn't know, the Mandalorian armor prevented Sarlac from digesting Boba Fett, and he escaped. All that I said happens after that.

Now the clone army are the imperfect copy of a Mandalorian descendant. They have some of the old blood in them, but Jango himself wasn't even 100% Mandalorian by birth, and not trained as one. As such, with the cloning process removing aspects of Jango's template, and the fact a clone is not always as good as the original, the clone army was only as much a Mandalorian as a modern-day Swedish man is a viking.

In the fall of the Republic slash birth of the Empire, the clone army was deemed a threat because of its uniformity, and thus the next generations of clones were from a wider sample of donors, and the remaining Jango-Clone troops were spread out so not to be all in one unit (with the exception of the 501st). I don't recall anything about cloning becoming lostech, but I do believe that when the clones were broken up, they also started recruiting non-clones.

Now specific to the "Dark Troopers", these troopers aren't human or clone, but droids. They never appeared in the films, and are more of a video game creation than anything canonical but one way or another, they aren't in any way Mandalorian.

Lastly there's the royal guard (them cool red guys). The guard are actually regular Storm Troopers, who do a term as a guard, then rotate back into the trooper ranks so they don't loose their fighting edge. One would assume only the best of the Storm Troopers get this position, which would also hint that as the part-Mandalorian are the best, the Guard are often of some Mandalorian blood. Prior to the Empire, the Republic Royal Guard were normal humans.

Well, according to Wookiepedia, Mandalorians are actually a nomadic clan, not a species. Humans, Rodians, Toydarians, etc, they can all be trained as Mandalorians. Their skill in battle doesn't come from some inate genetic ability, it comes from the years of harsh training recruits are subjected to. Jango Fett, for instance, is a Mandalorian in the sense that he was raised from a young age by other Mandalorians. That's how he gained his uber-fighting skills. In the same way the Spartans were a fighting force, not a species, so were the Mandalorians.

What this means is that there's no reason why the Clone Troopers should have any of the fighting skill of the Mandalorians. You can't genetically transfer training, especially not the rigorous sort the followers of Mandalore use. The clones weren't trained by people like Canderous in the ways of Mandalore. They were trained by the cloners on Kamino. This makes them about as Mandalorian as Jabba the Hutt.

Yeah, I'm not a geek at all...

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:
Well, according to Wookiepedia, Mandalorians are actually a nomadic clan, not a species. Humans, Rodians, Toydarians, etc, they can all be trained as Mandalorians. Their skill in battle doesn't come from some inate genetic ability, it comes from the years of harsh training recruits are subjected to. Jango Fett, for instance, is a Mandalorian in the sense that he was raised from a young age by other Mandalorians. That's how he gained his uber-fighting skills. In the same way the Spartans were a fighting force, not a species, so were the Mandalorians.

What this means is that there's no reason why the Clone Troopers should have any of the fighting skill of the Mandalorians. You can't genetically transfer training, especially not the rigorous sort the followers of Mandalore use. The clones weren't trained by people like Canderous in the ways of Mandalore. They were trained by the cloners on Kamino. This makes them about as Mandalorian as Jabba the Hutt.

Yeah, I'm not a geek at all...

Well you learn something new every day... Now the never-ending problem of which info is canon versus novel-author made up? I'd bet on Jeffers' theory because I've heard something like it before.

But don't write off Jabba as being unsuited for Mandalore training. He knows the long lost martial art of Fat-Fu.

Khell_Sennet:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:
Well, according to Wookiepedia, Mandalorians are actually a nomadic clan, not a species. Humans, Rodians, Toydarians, etc, they can all be trained as Mandalorians. Their skill in battle doesn't come from some inate genetic ability, it comes from the years of harsh training recruits are subjected to. Jango Fett, for instance, is a Mandalorian in the sense that he was raised from a young age by other Mandalorians. That's how he gained his uber-fighting skills. In the same way the Spartans were a fighting force, not a species, so were the Mandalorians.

What this means is that there's no reason why the Clone Troopers should have any of the fighting skill of the Mandalorians. You can't genetically transfer training, especially not the rigorous sort the followers of Mandalore use. The clones weren't trained by people like Canderous in the ways of Mandalore. They were trained by the cloners on Kamino. This makes them about as Mandalorian as Jabba the Hutt.

Yeah, I'm not a geek at all...

Well you learn something new every day... Now the never-ending problem of which info is canon versus novel-author made up? I'd bet on Jeffers' theory because I've heard something like it before.

But don't write off Jabba as being unsuited for Mandalore training. He knows the long lost martial art of Fat-Fu.

Originally the Mandalorians were a species but they started taking other species about a decade or so before KOTOR but this was when the species was originally called the Taung and took the name after the planet Mandalore which they nicely named after their leader.

It's quite similar to how the Sith were once a species but they died out and it became an ideal.

This is only marginally related to gaming.

Moved to off-topic.

Genetics do help with physique and things such as that but you also must remember training. The Mandalorians received at minimum two decades of the harshest possible training while the Stormtroopers only trained for something like seven. Also the regime they followed changes their effectiveness greatly. Armour also changes things, the Mandalorians wearing enough armor for a Baneblade while Stormtroopers get mass-produced plasticy looking armor.

Mandalorians carry heavily customized heavy weapons while stormtroopers get the standard Blaster Rifle.

Culture also affects the way they work as a unit, the Stormtroopers being disciplined but missing the initiative and personality of Mandalorians, who approach every war problem at every tactical angle and with open minds.

Numbers and expendability, Mandalorians considering themselves indestructible killing machines but still using cover effectively while Stormtroopers walk at you in a straight line.

Edit: A teenager who is pretty good with a blaster can kill a dozen Stormtroopers.
He couldn't scratch a single Mandalorian.

Also Mandalorians use extensive cloaking and stealth techniques, while storm troopers do have squads specifically trained for that, the Mandalorians integrate it into all their battles, not just a few stealth and sabotage operations.

Continuity has been restored: The original stormtroopers were clones. These guys would've fought for maybe 20 years (at which point they'd be the equivalent of 60) and thus retired almost entirely by the events of A New Hope. As such, practically all stormies and pilots seen in the original three films are non-clones (with perhaps a few select squads that are) sourced from numerous planets.

The Manda-trained stormies (mostly ARCs and Commandos) do not just have superior equipment but superior training and a stronger sense of self. Combined with their very close relationship with their brothers, they become highly dangerous individuals, prone to NOT following orders. This is why by the time of A New Hope, no more ARCs or commandos are seen - they've either disappeared or been 'disappeared'.

Why didn't the Emperor (and Wompa, I love you for mixing Emperors) have more clones produced? Because he couldn't replicate the cloning method the Kaminoans could. Methods existed for fast-growing clones - but they all produced mentally unstable individuals (this is alluded to in the Thrawn trilogy and further expanded upon in the Hand of Thrawn dualogy) which the Emperor could not figure out the reason for. He needed his troops regardless, and was in such terror of his own mortality (hence his other cloning attempts to make extra bodies for himself) that he instead devoted his energies to lengthening his life rather than imprinting his will on otherwise-unstable troops.

Had the Emperor kept Thrawn in known space, the Rebellion's attempts would've gone rather differently, but then again, the Yuuzhan Vong would not have found a fractured galaxy clutched within civil war either.

BlueMage:

Why didn't the Emperor (and Wompa, I love you for mixing Emperors) have more clones produced? Because he couldn't replicate the cloning method the Kaminoans could.

What'd I do? Exactly! About the clones messing up by the way. I remember reading that. Also I think the rate of Clones was 1 full year equals seven for them, or something close to that.

This topic should be about the Hutts. They're way more interesting >:()))>---

Here's something to discuss: Why were all imperial soldiers human? I don't remember anything about racism (specieism?) being mentioned throughout the films or the books I've read.

Because it was a human empire?
Think about it.

Here's something to discuss: Why were all imperial soldiers human? I don't remember anything about racism (specieism?) being mentioned throughout the films or the books I've read.

More humans available perhaps? Though in the films I'd probably put it down more due to it being cheaper on costume production. It'd be weird if the entire Empire's armed forces was made up of only humans when there are plenty of smart 'aliens' (can you really call them aliens in Star Wars?) who'd be willing to take up the position.

Here's what i know......the casualty rate for stormtroopers is incredibly high they are sent on the most dangerous assignments, so alot of clones are killed, at the time of the rebellion there is only one fully clone regiment and that is the 501st also known as Vaders Fist, they are the best of the clone troopers,and in film terms were the troopers that acompanied anakin to the jedi temple, and pretty much any battle where Vader was. But by this time the Emperor has started recruiting from civillian populations...well i say "recruiting" i ment abducting and the indocrinating.

alot of them died aboard the first death star as they were allways stationed with vader...i cant be sure but after that there history gets a bit fuzzy. They were the elites of the clone troopers.

Most other stormtroopers are just bog standard humans who have been forced into service.

Oh and as to the only human crewmen part, its widely documented that Palpatine was a sexist and racist......the only officer who wasnt human was Grand Admiral Thrawn, who was as high a rank as he was because he was so good at what he did but stuck in the ass end of space away from everyone seeing him, the only female was Admiral Daala, and she was only where she was becasue she was Tarkins lover......later in the time line the male human only rule is relaxed and any species or sex can join.

:$

My fractured knowledge has been suitably surpassed.

Khell_Sennet:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:
Well, according to Wookiepedia, Mandalorians are actually a nomadic clan, not a species. Humans, Rodians, Toydarians, etc, they can all be trained as Mandalorians. Their skill in battle doesn't come from some inate genetic ability, it comes from the years of harsh training recruits are subjected to. Jango Fett, for instance, is a Mandalorian in the sense that he was raised from a young age by other Mandalorians. That's how he gained his uber-fighting skills. In the same way the Spartans were a fighting force, not a species, so were the Mandalorians.

What this means is that there's no reason why the Clone Troopers should have any of the fighting skill of the Mandalorians. You can't genetically transfer training, especially not the rigorous sort the followers of Mandalore use. The clones weren't trained by people like Canderous in the ways of Mandalore. They were trained by the cloners on Kamino. This makes them about as Mandalorian as Jabba the Hutt.

Yeah, I'm not a geek at all...

Well you learn something new every day... Now the never-ending problem of which info is canon versus novel-author made up? I'd bet on Jeffers' theory because I've heard something like it before.

It's from Wookiepedia, therefore it cannot be wrong.

But don't write off Jabba as being unsuited for Mandalore training. He knows the long lost martial art of Fat-Fu.

Puh-leeeez, he was killed by a cocaine addict in a bikini. Besides, I don't think they make armour his size.

I like to think of it this way: Star Wars i amazing, it has so much in it, you can see a thousand different themes and story lines if you want, but if you read in too much you will end up spoiling it for yourself.

First of all draw a line in between the six main movies and everything else. I personally don't like the "Expanded Universe" even though some of it may actually have a better storyline than Star Wars itself (KotoR) it often creates plot holes. I like to keep them separated,viewing them as two different sides of one universe, but that is only how I prefer it.

Second of all if you choose to only look at the movies it has a very simple explanation. They are movies. In the commentary for "The Empire Strikes Back" Irvin Kershner (think that's how you spell it, anyway, the director) comments on how the stormtroopers keep shooting like monkeys with that it was a classic movie gag, the bad guys can't shoot straight while the heroes can. Lucas mentioned something similar in the commentary for "Return of the Jedi", I think Boba's death was intended to be comic effect or something similar and that in hindsight it was a bad move, but also that it is up to the audience whether he survived or not (I think, a while since i watched it).

It pretty much li