I know, the universe is full of fanboys who put on the sackcloth and ashes and wail at the sky proclaiming the immineint doom of mankind and all that is good because they thought they saw a rainbow in an early screenshot which "Totally ruins the goddamn game they're taking the concept and raping it just raping it man imo the dev's were better when they didn't want money".

However, when this article http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=198546 was brought to my attention I dutifully read it, and I felt a little more of my spirit die inside of me. The developers seem to have neglected to realize, once again, that what made Deus Ex such an incredible experiance wasn't super kewl technoligy or a cyber punk setting, it was an incredibly deep storyline with morally ambiguous choices as well as successfully integrating exploration and RPG elements into a Real Time Shooter. Deus Ex: The Invisible War moved away from both the RPG charms of the original as well as the good story, ripping it from it's womb in the "I could see that happening" near future cum conspiracy theorists wet dream to super futury future where coffee shops hire mercenaries and despite how futurey futuristic it is theres no mass transit and forget about any grounding in the real world you know it, also there's one world religeon- In short they turned it into Frank Herberts Dune but with less sand. Fans, terrified and confused when their Conspiracy Theory filled RPG drama was taken from them, understandibly revolted and the game never really succeeded the way the first did.

And so, taking this lesson to heart, Eidos has decided to not only not RETRACT the mistakes of the first game but take them one step further. Hurray.

Your thoughts? As a fan of the original Deus Ex, which I feel holds up to modern game standards in everything but graphics (and even those are very passable given I don't give two shakes of a lambs balls about bump mapping or dynamic lighting or any of that other shit), I expect this game is already going in the wrong direction and worse yet they're bragging about it. The fun of the first game was you could decied what weapons you wanted to specialize in, what skills you wanted to specialize in, and what super special techno powers you wanted. Admittedly some were more important then others (swimming got used what, once? twice?) but still the game gave you that freedom and rewarded you for your specializations. Admittedly it's far far too early to make any true judgements, but I won't be snogging suprised when they turn it into a glitzy action game and forget the cerebreal elements that made the first one so stonking great.

Anyone else have thoughts on this or am I just that big of a nerd?

If you cut out just two paragraphs it almost sounds like they might have gotten their heads out of their asses and realized they fucked up with Deus Ex 2.

However:

This said, they are doing their utmost to please newcomers as well as existing fans. Perhaps controversially this time around combat won't be influenced by stats, but will rely purely on your personal marksmanship skills. Instead stats will influence "a vast array of fully upgradeable and customisable weapons", and you'll be able to tailor your arsenal to your play style with mag upgrades, scopes and other add-ons.

What's more, stealth will now rely on a cover system rather than shadows, and damage will be dealt with by a very Call of Duty-style auto-heal. There's probably going to be some debate over those two.

Makes me want to pound my head through concrete blocks.

Bloody hell! I hated COD4, but too many people liked it. Sons of bitches! This has once again destroyed all of my hope in human decency. :(

I hate auto-heal, why does every developer and their uncle have to throw this cheap game mechanic into every game that's released these days, it removes all strategy from the game since you can take risks in the game but then hightail it out of the area to hide in a corner to let you wounds heal.

darkstone:
I hate auto-heal, why does every developer and their uncle have to throw this cheap game mechanic into every game that's released these days, it removes all strategy from the game since you can take risks in the game but then hightail it out of the area to hide in a corner to let you wounds heal.

Especially since (correct me if i am wrong) DX 1 had an Autoheal-Like Skill, wich added some strategy and thoughtfulness to the whole affair.

I for myself can't really care about DX 3. I loved the first one, but after the disappointment that was the sequel i can't be really hyped up with the new one

Actually I'm not completely horrified by the non-stat aproach. One of the few things I absolutely loathed about Deus Ex was the fact Denton, despite being a highly trained, nanomachine enhanced, secret agent, took eons to aim in the general direction of his target, especially at lower levels. The old method of firearms inacuracy is hopeless antiquated now. When you fire a pistol the bullets do not come out at bizare angles like you're unloading a can of silly string.

A much better system would have Denton's aim naturally sway while ensuring the bullets actually go where you're pointing your crosshair.

Level up!

Frybird:

darkstone:
I hate auto-heal, why does every developer and their uncle have to throw this cheap game mechanic into every game that's released these days, it removes all strategy from the game since you can take risks in the game but then hightail it out of the area to hide in a corner to let you wounds heal.

Especially since (correct me if i am wrong) DX 1 had an Autoheal-Like Skill, wich added some strategy and thoughtfulness to the whole affair.

That's the point though, it was a skill, something that you needed energy to use therefore you used it sparingly and only in emergencies, now in most games you can take a couple of shotgun blasts to the face hide behind a wall heal up and then keep going and you use this tactic throughout the entire game.

I'm with Doctorpus, if they make it so that any stats would help you more with things like computer hacking, lock picking or things that we would have to actually learn and have little to do with how good the player is at aiming.

TOGSolid:
If you cut out just two paragraphs it almost sounds like they might have gotten their heads out of their asses and realized they fucked up with Deus Ex 2.

However:

This said, they are doing their utmost to please newcomers as well as existing fans. Perhaps controversially this time around combat won't be influenced by stats, but will rely purely on your personal marksmanship skills. Instead stats will influence "a vast array of fully upgradeable and customisable weapons", and you'll be able to tailor your arsenal to your play style with mag upgrades, scopes and other add-ons.

What's more, stealth will now rely on a cover system rather than shadows, and damage will be dealt with by a very Call of Duty-style auto-heal. There's probably going to be some debate over those two.

Makes me want to pound my head through concrete blocks.

I read that and died. I'm taking everyone else with me.

darkstone:
I hate auto-heal, why does every developer and their uncle have to throw this cheap game mechanic into every game that's released these days, it removes all strategy from the game since you can take risks in the game but then hightail it out of the area to hide in a corner to let you wounds heal.

You know, while auto-heal is not for games like Deus Ex, it does have its place. Those fast-paced shooters have auto-heal as a means to get you, the player, into the action and keep you there, without making you search every nook and cranny for a health pack.

As for the new Deus Ex, I'm not going to comment, since I haven't played any games from the series, unfortunately. For what it's worth, I too don't see the point in the stealth mechanic, nor do I see an benefits for pure player-based skills in an RPG. In fact, for the stealth, why can't they have both cover and shadows? That's more realistic, and gives you more choice in picking places to hide.

Gears of Invisible War DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!

What's more, stealth will now rely on a cover system rather than shadows, and damage will be dealt with by a very Call of Duty-style auto-heal. There's probably going to be some debate over those two.

They're right, those two points are going to really upset die-hard Deus Ex fans, me included.

I'm not too fussed about stealth - I've never really been a big fan of it, but in games like this, it works and I'll put up with it. It's how stealth is implemented that gets me down. I'll wait and see with the changes they're making, but I get the feeling I'm going to miss my light bar.

The auto-heal, however, is going to piss me off immensely, because it's going to take away a huge element of strategy from the game. With the original game, you had to be careful, because you couldn't take a lot of hits. With this, it sounds like you're going to be able to run out all guns blazing, because if your health gets a bit low, you can just hide for a few seconds and then rinse and repeat. Where's the strategy in that?

As with most things these days, I'll wait for a couple of reviews before I judge for myself whether to get it or not, but these comments don't exactly raise my hopes.

but I won't be snogging suprised

I had to look up snogging, simply because the way you're using it is entirely alien to me. I was under the impression that it was just kissing, or perhaps kissing 'enthusiastically' with a touch of cuddling involve.

Might I suggest the word "sodding" in place? It makes a tad more sense on the whole.

Hope they don't fuck up DX3, they probably will, gonna grit my teeth and prepare for the worst.

Oh god, they couldn't have picked a worse game to put in the old auto heal, I loved the first game's system, what the heck was wrong with that?!
Urgh, I hope this is good, it has to be but I'm already starting to doubt it.

If the autoheal starts off slowly and lets you upgrade it as times goes on I think it'll be awesome and a far better implmentation of healing skills than the first game. That being said the injury system should remain, actually repairing parts of your body should take skill and resources.

Quite obviously being pitched as an action shooter. Why even bother trying to tie it to the original game? They must think we're stupid or something.

Well I can't judge anything about the game yet because there's only tiny portions of information for the game. However I'm cautious about the new cover system and auto-healing system they might add. The cover system would seem like another Gears of War mechanic knock-off as it would take away the immersion and the auto-healing scheme is absolutely inappropriate for Deus Ex, they need to bring back the specific amount of body part damage and have the auto-healing as a augmentation mod. However I do like the fact that they set the game as a prequel so we can all pretend Invisible War never happened {that is if Deus Ex 3 really sucked} and would answer all the questions of the Deus Ex universe. Plus, the psuedo future setting what gave the original Deus Ex common relatable ground and made it thought provoking. But none of us can't decide unless Eidos Montreal offers full scoop on the gameplay, when they show us gameplay footage, and until the full game is released.

This said, they are doing their utmost to please newcomers as well as existing fans. Perhaps controversially this time around combat won't be influenced by stats, but will rely purely on your personal marksmanship skills. Instead stats will influence "a vast array of fully upgradeable and customisable weapons", and you'll be able to tailor your arsenal to your play style with mag upgrades, scopes and other add-ons.

What's more, stealth will now rely on a cover system rather than shadows, and damage will be dealt with by a very Call of Duty-style auto-heal. There's probably going to be some debate over those two.

Oh my god.

Yeah, I pretty much vomited at the news. I was actually participating on some of the discussion on their official forums. It's kind of sad to see hundreds of people writing hundreds of pages worth of forum posts, detailing exactly what they think the game should be like, only to have the developers do the exact opposite of what any of the fans actually wanted. I promptly made my disgust clear and left.

mg66368:
another Gears of War mechanic knock-off as it would take away the immersion

I think your wrong there. I think that third person shooters put you, the main character, in the centre of the screen so that you see them hurt and bleed. In TPS' your not just a floating gun and because of this you have a greater connection with the character. When you have a greater connection with the character Hey Presto greater immersion.

This link gives my opinion in greater detail. I'm too lazy to type it all out.

This game sounds more like Rainbow Six Vegas in the future then Deus Ex 3. It could still be good, I think we need to keep an ear close to the ground for a while before we judge what this game will be like. I just hope that if they must use cover they do it like RSV where when your off cover you play in the First Person but when on cover you go into a fairly close Third Person.

With the continuing degradation of games, I am betting that it will not be as awesome as Deus Ex. It seems almost a given that subsequent parts will be worse.

UPDATE: A slight clarification for those fearing that DX3 is straying from its roleplay roots - Eidos Montreal have confirmed, as is detailed in PC Zone issue 200, that you'll still garner experience points as you progress through the game. You'll then either choose to plug them into your self through your augmentations or your weaponry. Apologies for any confusion.

Just for the record.

I think that there's a bit too much drama going around here. I mean, I don't like a "shield" system (first seen in Halo 2?), but that doesn't mean that the game is going to be crap per se. A game is more than the health system.

Max Payne needs a health system. Max Payne 1 was way too hard (compared to MP2) because you didn't regain ANY health at all. Max Payne 2 was a bit easier, just by adding a little bit of health regaining.
Splinter Cell series don't need a health system. What's the point?
Something like, yes, DX1 or Dark Corners of the Earth (individual damage areas that impede your character to do something) work well in most cases, but not always (imagine HL-HL2 with localized damage!)

So, please, let's not judge a game by just looking at the health bar, ok? :)

Bah! I'm more worried about the fact that the article says the game will have experience points.

The skill system in the original Deus Ex was pretty damn lame. Every-basic-RPG-style "pissant to badass" game mechanics just didn't fit the narrative of the game all that well.

Weapon upgrades were also messed up, allowing you to pile tons of mods onto any weapon -- and, in effect, forcing you to do that if you wanted to make your bullets go where you shot them. DE2's approach, while too simple, actually made switching weapons -- or even throwing away an upgraded gun -- worthwhile.

The "specialization" that people talk about was very front-loaded. Like most every-basic-RPG-style games, you pretty much had to start with an allocation of abilities in mind in. I don't like this kind of design pattern because it puts most of the decision-making at the beginning (where you're least informed) and makes it hard to deviate to actually create new strategies. In other words, you get a character who's so good at one or two things that only those one or two things are worth trying to do, most of the time -- another every-basic-RPG-style misfeature.

I'd rather have a hybrid of DE1 and DE2 (preferably one that steals a few good ideas from other games) than a straight-up copy of DE1 with every wart and misfeature preserved just as lovingly as everything it got right.

-- Alex

I personally liked the DX1 skill system. Not just because I'm a rabid RPG fan (which I am a bit but bear with me). Even if it would have made more sense if you were powerful in every way from the start, the limited skills meant that there were times you had to think how to get past certain areas *with the skills you had*. If you had taken the jump thing, you could jump past all these soldiers. If you had taken the stealth one instead, you could stealth past. This was a little more than just there being 'multiple ways to beat an obstacle'. You locked some abilities in, then had to be creative with them. Frustrating at times, sure. But quite rewarding. Meant there was some replayability there too (despite them making the epic mistake of having all the pathways in the game come down to a single choice).

There's a hundred other things about DX1 that are worth commenting on but i'll end on that for now.

Fire Daemon:

mg66368:
another Gears of War mechanic knock-off as it would take away the immersion

I think your wrong there. I think that third person shooters put you, the main character, in the centre of the screen so that you see them hurt and bleed. In TPS' your not just a floating gun and because of this you have a greater connection with the character. When you have a greater connection with the character Hey Presto greater immersion.

This might have held true back in the day, but first person shooters have made great strides in really making you feel more connected. Crysis had a great feel of weight behind all of your actions thanks to the animations of the player's body and movement of the first person camera.

Elim Garak:
Bloody hell! I hated [something], but too many people liked it. Sons of bitches! This has once again destroyed all of my hope in human decency. :(

Story of my life. Less eloquently put but we're not here to sugarcoat things.

Decoy Doctorpus:
If the autoheal starts off slowly and lets you upgrade it as times goes on I think it'll be awesome and a far better implmentation of healing skills than the first game. That being said the injury system should remain, actually repairing parts of your body should take skill and resources.

Now this I agree with- I mean, every cell in the guys body was upgraded with Nannites. You'd think his bodies ability to naturally repair itself would be upgraded. You could have auto heal as an upgrade slotted to your bloodvessels or something (second option would be an adrenaline boost upgrade, throw in bullet time to make all the kids happy).

Also I admit Deus Ex's implimentation of the weapon skills could've been more refined, but they were dealing with the designs and technoligys of the time. They could go a long way to make players feel more badass, but they need to balance that with RPG CHOICES because thats the spirit of the game. Not Action-Shooter.

Some of these design decisions make Harvey Smith look like a genius.

I can just about understand the motivation behind auto-heal (it'll be marketed for consoles and modern console gamers don't like dying and/or difficulty), but it's still a terrible game mechanic and one which needs to disappear as quickly as possible. As for the prospect of a cover system... I guess all you can do is lol.

I don't think any Deus Ex fan would have expected it to be as good as the original, but from the looks of things it'll be worse than Invisible War.

When you come down to it, it's not the health system or skill points or weapon modifications individually that made Deus Ex special, it was all of them put together. The game was wonderfully complex with multitudes of ways to approach solutions and character development.

Things like Invisible War's universal ammo system (is this the only game that ever used such a ridiculous idea?) and Deus Ex 3's auto-heal and cover systems work to remove the spirit of what made Deus Ex so awesome. They remove the RPG elements which Warren Spector seemed to emphasize. The RPG elements aren't just for show, they actually also inform upon decisions that you, the player, will make throughout the game.

Then again, no one has actually seen Deus Ex 3 in motion yet. And, didn't you smile just a bit when that Deus Ex theme song popped up in the teaser for the game? I know I did. At this point, I'm gonna stick with cautious optimism.

Did anyone ever play Deus Ex Multiplayer? I never did- what was it like? The whole idea of Deus Ex + Multiplayer just feels anathema to me. To the point i'm HOPING theres none in 3... though all the asshole reviewers will mount their high horse and dock the game 2 pts if thats the case.

Doctor Panda:
If you had taken the jump thing, you could jump past all these soldiers. If you had taken the stealth one instead, you could stealth past.

This was driven by biomods rather than skills, though. Skills mostly determined how accurate/powerful your attacks were, how much you could hack, and how many tools it would take to break a lock or keypad. DE2 had a similar thing going with its much simpler biomod system, though there were fewer places where you could really take advantage of some of the abilities (e.g. jumping, since most of the environment were flat or enclosed).

-- Alex