Having grown up with Number Munchers, Math Blaster, and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego (not that Third Person Action Adventure POS) I am strongly of the opinion that games can be very valuable educational tools.

It is all about making learning fun. And how many non-video styled learning games are there? How does adding the digital element make that practice any less valid?

So when I come across this article on Game Politics:
http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/10/07/blogger-scoffs-supposed-educational-value-games

talking about this gals blog entry:
http://foureyedgremlin.blogspot.com/2008/10/department-of-bad-ideas-teaching.html

I got a little annoyed. No Halo isn't teaching astrophysics, and while there has not been any serious examination of or work dedicated to making formal educational tools that make use of gaming, it is entirely possible and, I argue, inevitable. This girl is obviously the nerdy sort who is above gaming, a fanboy on the other side of the coin. Never considering the other side of the argument, I metaphorically snub her and embrace my piss-ed-off-ed-ness.

Your thoughts?

"what being alive shares in common with literature is its interest in this phenomenon called mortality, whereby people die, usually permanently, and that's seen as a pretty big reason that people have to "make choices and live with those choices." In video games, however, you just get teleported back to level 1 to start over."

Lol. Things have moved on since Super Mario Bros.

Of course games can teach. Most don't attempt to, obviously, but the potential is definitely there.

Games like Medieval: Total War and Cossacks are a good example. They remind me of the Horrible Histories books in that they present something pretty uninteresting in a highly interesting way (it may not be 100% historically accurate, but then I doubt that 100% of what gets taught in schools is historically accurate).

Whether video games can be used to teach more practical subjects like science and maths is debatable. The gravity puzzles in Half-Life 2 certainly hint at a bright future, as do the logic puzzles in a number of adventure games. Whether or not what is being taught is "academic" enough remains to be seen.

This guy has a few excellent points on the subject...

Videogames CAN teach, they're also excellent therapy for people with nerve disorders and various other health problems. The Medical community is still fully exploring the possibilities, but there are a few commercially availible "educational game" systems on the market, including V-Smile and whatever that dude in the frog costume is selling.

I'm firmly of the mind that games can teach, not just the explicitly educational games. I think I learned more from Planescape: Torment than all the educational games put together. Games can really be literature on par with the works of the best writers if they just try. The fact that most games are not means only that; there are still games out there that try to send a message, to explore themes and ideas in new ways.

meatloaf231:
This guy has a few excellent points on the subject...

Just watched that. Good video. Tangential learning isn't even what I was thinking about, but it's an excellent way to go.

In all honesty thats kind of a hard question. Can games teach, 100% yes as long as you are not limiting this to "traditional" games. Here in the states we have Leap Frog which are mini handheld and flash games that teach math and reading. There is also of corse typeing of the dead(or something like that) where you learn to type and spell better while killing zombies. I do also think you can teach morally good and bad things from games. Every JRPG has those themes and ones such as greed maybe even about love.( A stretch i know but possible)

Edit: There is also a fairly new book called Grand Theft Childhood primarily based on how video games are not that bad for kids but also covers some of the benefits they can teach children.

I think people (mostly older individuals) should stop thinking that games can't help and let there kid try. If a child cant learn to read conventionaly but wants to follow a story in a game and thus teaches themselves how to read does it really matter how they learned it? Should they not just be happy there child is learning? God that stuff makes me sick.

Saying "teach" is a bit vague. Educational teaching of the kind the OP mentions is certainly possible. Computers have been teaching ever since Mavis Beacon first started making typing tools.

But I also think games can teach practical skills and have value beyond being just entertainment. Comprehension of words and concepts, for example, hand-eye coordination, ideas and philosophies and stories - the rich tapestry of video games has it all, and people tend to pick up on them. Hell, the Metal Gear Solid series alone could probably teach you a ton just from codec conversations (long winded as they are).

I think people definitely should be wary of overstating the way games teach (because face it, they are still primarily entertainment, not teaching tools), but they definitely have a potential to teach a lot of interesting skills.

fsanch:

/snip/

I think people definitely should be wary of overstating the way games teach (because face it, they are still primarily entertainment, not teaching tools), but they definitely have a potential to teach a lot of interesting skills.

True, but Literature is primarily about entertainment, or at least every genre has always started that way, and then slowly moved into more enlightening stories. That you have to be entertaining puts no restriction on a game containing social/political commentary, satire, and other themes that make the player think. Science Fiction didn't become a strong literary genre until the writers embraced their ability to present themes in ways that other genres of literature simply can't. Video games likewise have potential to push the limits even further by letting the player experience themes first-hand, rather than relying on their imagination to fill in blanks. Frankly, I would love to see the time where more video game developers truly embrace the tools they have available.

harhol:
Of course games can teach. Most don't attempt to, obviously, but the potential is definitely there.

That is exactly what I believe, There just isn't the money in the educational route that pure entertainment offers (what to rent for weekend movie viewing, Iron Man or National Geographic; the tribes of Sudan?) But how long before we have another Sierra type company serving up stuff like where in the world is Carmen Sandiego.

fsanch:
Saying "teach" is a bit vague. Educational teaching of the kind the OP mentions is certainly possible. Computers have been teaching ever since Mavis... etc.

Good point made in this post too.

Not only can game teach, they all do.
Even the most basic FPS teaches you the value of practice, repetition, patience, self control, manual ability, reflexes, and a whole ton of internet slang.
Absolutely everything you do teaches you something. However, teaching has no value without realization. You have to realize that you're learning something for that experience to become a fruit of sentience yes? Not just an automatism or a subliminal experience.
Besides, they found that that the kids that pick up the controller early succeed better in school than the ones that don't.
(I don't know if that is what the article you posted were saying, I didn't read them.)

mark_n_b:
/snip/

(what to rent for weekend movie viewing, Iron Man or National Geographic; the tribes of Sudan?)

As you say that, I think to myself "The history channel is pretty much the only thing on TV I ever watch. The rest is 95% shit and I'd rather not get my waders out and look for the 5%"

I honestly prefer a movie I'll learn something from, or see a new point of view from.

One way a video game can teach is by referencing something to the protagonist and then humorously mocking the protagonist for not knowing the reference if the player chooses to acknowledge he doesn't know it.

Rankao:
One way a video game can teach is by referencing something to the protagonist and then humorously mocking the protagonist for not knowing the reference if the player chooses to acknowledge he doesn't know it.

Very Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

Morrowind drastically improved my ability to read English.
It also gave me a really weird writing style, for a few years.

blizzard's games got me past 3 words per minute, better than i can say for those education programs.

starcraft helped me learn to do math at something closeish to a human speed

the command and conquer series (and starcraft) helped my fine motor skills, which in turn helped make my handwriting nearly a quarter legible.

and through a variety of video games i learned that i cant be afraid of the dark (which in turn shaped my entire philosophy)

klakkat:
Video games likewise have potential to push the limits even further by letting the player experience themes first-hand, rather than relying on their imagination to fill in blanks. Frankly, I would love to see the time where more video game developers truly embrace the tools they have available.

thoroughly agreed here. I also believe that we are coming up to the point where gaming will reach that point. graphics can no longer be toted (sp?) as the main selling point to a good game. we can buy any number of very realistic looking games in stores right now and they no longer have the means in and of themselves to impress. what we're looking at now is gameplay, and gameplay requires physics, science and spacial awareness puzzles, which require thought. granted, this doesn't constitute teaching in the way the OP implied.

instead, I look at games like Oregon Trail and Carmen Sandiago that I grew up on. these classics and a world of new iterations of similar titles have taught kids for years already. I spent most of my elementary years playing carmen sandiago religiously and now I know more about geography than most of the other people I know (I'm not saying I'm some sort of geographical encyclopedia in human form, just that I'm aware of the general area where most countries are found). these days, with things like the DS, kids don't have to settle for the crap games found on the V Smile once they've progressed past kindergarten, and adults can even continue their education with the same system.

not only CAN video games teach, nintendo is ensuring that it DOES teach. everything from yoga and cooking to math and science.

Games can teach, that is almost an undeniable fact. Find me someone who has played Counter-Strike, or a game that pertains to semi realism who could not tell you that an AK-47 has a more powerful bullet than a M4A1, but has much bigger spread of fire. Or one that could not name at least ten real weapons by silhouette alone (i can easily name 20 without even trying).

And certainly driving games have taught me how to deal with problems when driving, in fact i might actually not be here if it wasn't for some of the more realistic driving games, as my car lost grip round a corner at 70mph (on a motorway) and i managed to drift it round the corner without changing lanes, as i was catching a car in the left hand lane. I would have certainly hit the other car, and i certainly would have mashed into a barrier.

Of course, Go Karting when its raining on slicks is rather stunningly like playing Need for Speed Underground 2 drift races it's not even funny. I was awesome at that.

I do not agree they are murder simulators. They can teach you about the weaponry, but realistically using a rifle in gamesis nothing like actually using one.

Can't anything teach? Isn't everything a learning experience?

I'm being overly rhetorical, my answer is; Yes games can teach. But that doesn't mean they teach anything of value, or any definable skill or knowledge set.

Some games have the ability to enforce the logical learning and capabilities. Just look at Castle and Island of Dr. Brain. Both games were full of logical puzzles. They might have not teached much, but they were brain ticklers, and at least I found through them that logical thinking and reasoning is what I like.

Games? Teach? What madness has touched your brain? All games taught me was: Lift gun -> Point gun at No3bI3'z skullz -> Fire Gun -> *druggy voice* HEADSHOT!

meatloaf231:
This guy has a few excellent points on the subject...

many interesting points. now i'm gonna go look up the sephiroth.

YES.

One game that really stood out for me was Ecco on Sega CD. So many fucking puzzles, it was quite a brainworker.

I think games can teach, maybe less so now but in the old days they did. Playing text based DOS games really helped with my reading and spelling when i was growing up.

I have heard that core gamers tend to be a politically aware and active population that maintains concern for art, education, health, and the environment more than other population groups.

Now this may be a result of the games or the games may be part of the lifestyle that is conducive to this type of living (Chicken / Egg?)

I suppose the question has to be what does gaming in its current form offer the casual gamer (youthful players in particular) and what it could offer this population with either a little or a lot of work.

I can see the cell stage of Spore being used in a classroom somewhere to explain the idea of evolution.

Games can teach and improve a person's English.

i learned a LOT more from starcraft and baulders gate than i learned from any "educational" game, i think kids should be left the fuck alone and let play whatever they like. a wide variety of high quality products placed in front of a child is going to be far more educational than low quality purpose made shit(they often forget to make them fun). i learned to read a LOT quicker onece someone put hitchhikers guide to the galaxy in front of me than i did when all i had was fairy tales involving 3's. kids arent murderers waiting to happen, and can rise to some challenges you wouldnt think them able if given the chance, and a bit of motivation. fun is generally the best motivation out there, which makes good games one of the best tools out there.