Ok, I just learned what the uncanny valley is from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKTAJBQSm10 and I have a question:

Is reaching the right side of the valley achievable? Especially in a game, since if we can't get a CG movie on the right side of the valley where I'd imagine it would be easier to make look completely human since every single scene that anyone is going to see once it's released has been checked 700 times. Will it hurt gaming once it is, if it is? Since, it will probably make it so almost no one can afford to make a game that's 100% realistic. And these damn John Maddan fanatic type gamers refuse to play a game with stylized graphics because it'll be "gay" (and by the way, I hope they all get raped by men wearing swords on the ends of their penises). That's making it so all the game makers want to reach the right side of the valley or they don't make enough good money. So they'll be forced to get tons of money into a game, or not get good profit. Plus it'll cost more money for us. Even if we take money, effort, and how little sales the left side will get out of the equation we'll need to wait more. We're already having to hear about games a year or more in an advanced, would you like to live in a world where every game on the market has been in development for 5 years?

well I don't know if the right side of the valley is acheivable, at least in cinematics/CGI/videogames, and i'm sure some game devs want to but others want to make games that have a styled appeal like cartoons/anime/comics do. so Who Knows? *shrugs*

Excellent presentation. Any other ZP inspired stuff you like to recommend?

"In association with Edge"

I wonder how that happened. It's not as if he's got 100,000 views or anything.

I'm totally not jealous.

The fact that Team Fortress 2 sold more than five copies is proof that even if it's POSSIBLE, it's not worth it whatsoever. The point at which things look photorealistic is when people stop associating them with CGI, and at that point it's not really even worth it; people will feel like they're just watching a normal, live-action game, and protip: Live-action movies aren't inherently amazing.

I think the biggest problem with the right side of the valley is indeed the characters. you see tons of ebvironments that look amazingly beautiful and real, but then throw a human face in and you can say byebye to immersion.
Movement's also not that much of a problem anymore, I played tons of games where the movement was perfect and I didn't get stuck on anything.

So maybe if you just don't show any human faces in the game you'll get an uncanny valley-less game.

..although that would stunt the progress on developing realistic faces which would also suck.

So yeah, a tough one but not impossible oh no.

Sennz0r:
Movement's also not that much of a problem anymore, I played tons of games where the movement was perfect and I didn't get stuck on anything.

I think by movement he also means the way characters act in cut-scenes. Humans tend to fidget, scratch, shuffle and whatnot but video game folk tend to stand still with their arms by their side (or else make really exaggerated gesticulations). Lip movement is also a big problem.

I don't think we should even attempt to leap across the valley. It'll be easy to fail, and then we get a bunch of crappy games. If we do make it, then we just have a bunch of games that require supercomputers to run.

I think we should stay on the side we're good at. Stick with things that are obviously game characters, but that can show aspects of realism, so I can still have my realistic games. Or we can go the route of just not showing human characters and doing games with robots and spaceships...

Hmm... a game where the entire universe is extinct of biological life, but all the intelligent life-forms left behind all their technology, including robots of various technological levels. That could be cool.

harhol:

Sennz0r:
Movement's also not that much of a problem anymore, I played tons of games where the movement was perfect and I didn't get stuck on anything.

I think by movement he also means the way characters act in cut-scenes. Humans tend to fidget, scratch, shuffle and whatnot but video game folk tend to stand still with their arms by their side (or else make really exaggerated gesticulations). Lip movement is also a big problem.

Not that much in Dead Space (sorry just bought it today so it's all real fresh). Your character moves realistically and when you're not controlling him he starts to fidget with his suit and everything. Also lip movement looks real good (not your character's, he never talks nor takes off his helmet xD)

I think it's possible but it should only be applied to movies and cutscenes. It would take wwaaayyy too much time and effort and money to make a game that was 100% faithful to life.

goodman528:
Excellent presentation. Any other ZP inspired stuff you like to recommend?

Do I sense sarcasm? And, it depends what you mean by ZP inspired. DO you mean presentations made with windows movie maker and a guy talking where you could actually understand the voice or do you mean the person doing the presentation represented in a yahtzee format?

If we do make it, then we just have a bunch of games that require supercomputers to run.

Maybe at the moment they would. But, technology advances. Which is why a low-grade computer right now is better than a comadore 64.........was that a computer? Oh well you get the point.

people will feel like they're just watching a normal, live-action game, and protip: Live-action movies aren't inherently amazing.

There's no such thing as a live-action game yet. And,I agree on the movies thing.

Worst example for me was the FF film. It looked great. Too great. Because none of the voices seemed to fit the characters. If they'd used unknowns for the vox it would have been very effective. However, using identifiable voices meant the visuals were at odds with the sound.

Beowulf worked really well though.

Excellent! I like him and his videos. Fortunately, he doesn't try and copy ZP exactly and makes his own version of the format.

You're missing the point of the Uncanny valley. It's not visual similarity only, in fact, it's characterization.

Think about the prosthetic robotic hand. Visually it's almost perfectly a hand, the only difference is it's behavior - it's very robotic moving.

The same happens in most games nowadays, the visuals alone go well over the uncanny valley and land safely on the other side, the problem is that, in large part, the characters are so poorly and characterized they feel very fake, making us feel little to no empathy towards it.

This is why it's easier, at least to me, to empathize with, say, Altaïr from Assassin's Creed than with Master Chief from Halo. The first has a personality, he's humanly flawed, he has doubts and questions... The second is a cardboard cut-out. In fact, his entire role can be replaced by a robot. He's fake, and no matter how many Anti Alliasing you smack on it, he always feels fake.

It's the reason it's easier for you to care for Captain Vincent Price in CoD4 than it is for you to give 2 shits about your average soldier in your tired, beaten and overly done WWII shooter.

I say full speed ahead to that untouched territory of the right side of the valley!

I mean, hey, if PCs can apparantly go past 1080p and a Super Hi-Vision is experimental, who knows what's going to happen on the other side?

But we shouldn't forget about the cartoony games, oh they are so nice to look at from time to time.

@Caliostro: But then, wouldn't Master Chief be in the huge dip on the UV?

mike1921:

goodman528:
Excellent presentation. Any other ZP inspired stuff you like to recommend?

Do I sense sarcasm? And, it depends what you mean by ZP inspired. DO you mean presentations made with windows movie maker and a guy talking where you could actually understand the voice or do you mean the person doing the presentation represented in a yahtzee format?

At the very end of that youtube clip, he outright states, "Inspired by Zero Punctuation". It's in the credits.

Anyways, leaping the valley successfully leads to great immersion, thus it is worth it to do in many cases. Leapers should be careful though, as failings can lead to... well... go push some Oblivion characters around for a while. Those guys fall straight into the valley.

At the very end of that youtube clip, he outright states, "Inspired by Zero Punctuation". It's in the credits.

I'm aware.

mike1921:

goodman528:
Excellent presentation. Any other ZP inspired stuff you like to recommend?

Do I sense sarcasm? And, it depends what you mean by ZP inspired. DO you mean presentations made with windows movie maker and a guy talking where you could actually understand the voice or do you mean the person doing the presentation represented in a yahtzee format?

Sorry, didn't mean to sound sarcastic. At the end of the video a screen comes up saying it was ZP inspired. There are lots of ZP inspired videos on youtube, many attacking Yahtzee, all of them are pretty rubbish and just cheap immitations with nothing to say and no good voice to say it with. But I thought this Daniel guy was really good, maybe you'd like to recommend other good vids like this?

Oh. I hate those people with the bad voices.
No one who outright says it or who have yahtzee's avatar thingies comes to mind except whistleblower zero who got banned.

But the first people to come to mind (all the following people just have voiceovers, none have those yahtzee escue avvies except matthew who really doesn't count):
confused matthew (he reviews movies and sometimes tv though) http://www.youtube.com/user/confusedmatthew
Gabehouseal (he normally does anime but he has a few game reviews): http://www.youtube.com/user/GabeHouseal
moviebob: http://www.youtube.com/user/moviebob
and while he is nothing like yahtzee, the angry video game nerd feels similar and can be found here http://www.cinemassacre.com/new/?page_id=18

On topic for a second, the uncanny valley effect is a lot less pronounced than in "real life", so to speak - it probably has to do with the level of separation between a person and something shown on a screen, as opposed to having the thing right next to you. Terminator did quite well broaching that (I've been close to a moving terminator skeleton, I knew it was basically a moving mannequin, but that did NOT make me feel better...).

There are some very, very realistic looking robotic simulated people in Japan (for example in place of receptionists in tech companies), but the second that they move the valley kicks in, and things get STRANGE. There is also a researcher there who's created a robot that looks identical to him, purely to see how people react to it's presence once it starts moving, blinking, looking directly at them, etc.

Katana314:
The fact that Team Fortress 2 sold more than five copies is proof that even if it's POSSIBLE, it's not worth it whatsoever. The point at which things look photorealistic is when people stop associating them with CGI, and at that point it's not really even worth it; people will feel like they're just watching a normal, live-action game, and protip: Live-action movies aren't inherently amazing.

ummm...

Team Fortress 2 was clearly on the stylized side of the Uncanny Valley, which the presentation clearly pointed out was the easy side of the valley to make and sell.

I do disagree with him that Final Fantasy isn't trying to break past the Uncanny Valley.. apart from 9, each FFX from 8 onward has been pushing itself towards realism (apart from non-human characters).

Can the uncanny valley be breached? Almost undoubtedly yes. Should it be breached? Depends. I would like my war games to breach it, maybe bring some real gravity to the situation. Not every game should be heading in the direction of realism though, some games need to be stylized because their subject matter calls for it. Honestly, the faster we breach it the faster we can go back to being stylistic. Look at what happened to art. For the longest it was all attempts to recreate real life, then people started going way off the deep end once realism had been more or less achieved. Also, the faster we breach it the faster we can perfect making photorealistic graphics and thus the faster games will come out.

Well the problem with the Uncanny Valley isn't simply technological. The issue is that its part of a human element. For some reason we are able to just tell that its real or not. The shading could be a little off, the bone instructor might be awkward , or simply movement. Some games do a good job of covering it up by not allowing the user time to notice. GTAIV's use of Euphoria made the game slightly less awkward whenever you were hit or shot. The character would bunch up in a predefine position and roll. Its not perfect but when you are playing a pool full of games advancements are noticeable.

I personally think that just sticking to the safe side of the Valley is a viable solution. The difference between a game and a movie is that the game tries to make sure that you are too busy to truely stop and smell the pixels, and that is their job.

Indigo_Dingo:

TGLT:
Can the uncanny valley be breached? Almost undoubtedly yes. Should it be breached? Depends. I would like my war games to breach it, maybe bring some real gravity to the situation. Not every game should be heading in the direction of realism though, some games need to be stylized because their subject matter calls for it. Honestly, the faster we breach it the faster we can go back to being stylistic. Look at what happened to art. For the longest it was all attempts to recreate real life, then people started going way off the deep end once realism had been more or less achieved. Also, the faster we breach it the faster we can perfect making photorealistic graphics and thus the faster games will come out.

War games can still be stylized. Look at Valkyria Chronicles. (unless you specifically meant FPS's)

Well, obviously, but something like World War 2 probably shouldn't be stylized. That being said, even that has its place. Maus, for example. But photorealism does have its benefits. Horror games, serious and grim games, etc. etc. Even if they're mostly just going to be used everywhere.

Games like Crysis and Gears are amazing in their photorealism. They are awesome examples as to how far technology has come. I believe that games like that are required in the marketplace, not only to appeal to the market share that enjoys those types of games (read: graphics whores) and to kinda push the 'left' of the uncanny valley too.

If game developers got too complacent with the 'left' side of the uncanny valley, and we would see the market get very stagnant.

I see games like Crysis and Gears as ones that state "hey, this is what we can do, now lets see what we want to do"

gears is stylized in regards to the uncanny valley

Altorin:
gears is stylized in regards to the uncanny valley

I understand where you're coming from, but it is a photorealistic alternate universe/planet. I'm thinking stylized games like TF2 or Dreamfall (read: games in which the color pallet doesn't consist entirely of brown)

superbleeder12:

Altorin:
gears is stylized in regards to the uncanny valley

I understand where you're coming from, but it is a photorealistic alternate universe/planet. I'm thinking stylized games like TF2 or Dreamfall (read: games in which the color pallet doesn't consist entirely of brown)

well, I don't think colour variety has anything to do with the uncanny valley. A person doesn't look "more realistic", no matter how much brown is in the screen. I mean, Bruno the dog in Tom and Jerry was brown.

In regards to the uncanny valley, gears is stylized, because the HUMAN element isn't going for hyper realism. The people are built like cartoons, their faces and bodies

no one looks like that.

fell free to disagree, you probably won't sway my opinion, but I won't hold a knife to you until you agree with me :P

I read about this in an IEEE minimagazine of a friend of mine. I prefer the left side of the vally because of the leeway it provides. More leeway = more craeativity = more games that while not employing the latest graphical bells and whistles, will make up for it with amazing art direction.

Also, the Uncanny Valley is probably the reason that I would want a robotic-looking prosthetic limb should I lose my arm(s) / leg(s). I hope that doesn't happen though.

harhol:

Sennz0r:
Movement's also not that much of a problem anymore, I played tons of games where the movement was perfect and I didn't get stuck on anything.

I think by movement he also means the way characters act in cut-scenes. Humans tend to fidget, scratch, shuffle and whatnot but video game folk tend to stand still with their arms by their side (or else make really exaggerated gesticulations). Lip movement is also a big problem.

Uncharted seemed to nail that; people moan about how the character's don't look all that realistic, but they completely avoided the uncanny valley while still keeping everything looking natural and beautiful.