EzraPound:
'Shovelware' has always existed, and never sold particularly well (the only reason developers create it is because of low production costs, not high sales), regardless of how 'hardcore' the market is.

I have to agree with your post that shovelware has always existed. The PS2 was rife with it. But just to point out that it does sell, just not in traditional game markets. Shovelware has pretty high sales in Eastern Europe and other such areas.

Well, frankly I have more of a problem with hardcore gamers... Sorry... 'hardcore' gamers. I work at a video game store, and there are actually people who say, "I'm a hardcore gamer. So I need, like, a hardcore shooter." This of course, is an instant indication that the guy doesn't even know what a hardcore gamer is.

There seems to be this myth that devs who make casual games are sitting in an ivory tower, rubbing their hands with glee at all the money they will make with their casual, easy to make games. Those bastards! In reality its simply a business model that works for a lot of medium-small developers. They can't take 2-3 years to make a game because they can't afford to. They need a quick release schedule.

They steal all my chips is what.

axia777:

Go screw yourself asshat.

Grow up.

On to the topic, it's been explained by the VG Cats comic.

Now hush.

I think I got it. Is a soldier any more of a soldier because he was in WW2 or went to 'Nam or was in Desert Storm or Op:Iraqi Freedom than if he worked for his country on his own soil and never fired a shot except at the range? Some people would say yes and some would say no. The ones that say yes are the ones that have the hate-on for "casual" gamers.

I don't see why it's such a big deal. They're just games. Casual or hardcore, i'll play both.

Casuals are required if our industry is to survive. Notice how most of the big new releases this year are rated M? The game development cycle is following our generation and it's what we consider "Casuals" who will propagate the next generation of our hobby. M titles don't buy young fans (That we would need if we expect to be able to sustain development.)

Or we could implode like comic books in the 90s, you know, feed off the same diminishing fan base and fail to attract a new market to sustain yourself.

I love video games, and if a few franchises have to drop a level at the ESRB to propagate more gaming in the future, I will survive.

Videogames are Serious Business. Didn't you know?

GloatingSwine:
Videogames are Serious Business. Didn't you know?

One of the biggest entertainment industries in North America.
Srs Biznis,

I vote for a change of thread topic to "Why all the hate on casual gamers". It kinda fits better with the over all theme of this forum.

ranger19:

implodingMan:
I only have a problem with them when developers take established series that I enjoy and change them so that they are more marketable towards casuals.

Other than that I don't give a damn about them.

Yeah, basically this. I don't care about whether someone plays only Brain Age or Bejeweled on their DS twice a month or whether they buy every Final Fantasy game. It's only annoying when the games I like to play get changed to appeal to them.

what he said.

Indigo_Dingo:

GoblinOnFire:
I vote for a change of thread topic to "Why all the hate on casual gamers". It kinda fits better with the over all theme of this forum.

No, I will not bend to this flavour of the month "why all the hate on X" crap.

I love you, man

Go screw yourself asshat.

Your post is analagous to shovelware. If you're so concerned about spreading waste, then don't do it.

I don't see the link between Casual Gamers and Shallow Games. I see a link between Halo Smacktards and Shallow Games.

Casual gaming doesn't mean you go on CoD 4 and spend the whole game spamming voice chat with "wow I suck! Haha! Lookit my gun! Pchow pchow! I'm an army man!"
A Casual Gamer goes on CoD 4 once a week for an hour or two, and blows the shit out of you. Then he's gone for another week.

It is actually the 'hard core' gamers who are ruining gaming; you get a bunch of losers who DEMAND every game be another fucking Halo Clone, and since they're the Hard Core gamers they do all the shouting. The Casual Gamer only plays once a week and doesn't feel sexually attracted to Master Chief, so doesn't see the need to remake every game in His image. He's happy playing a little bit of Halo 3. He's happy turning MGS4 into a soap opera spanning three months. He's cool with just doing a couple of Mario Kart circuits, or one cup a night rather than trying to beat all 64 tracks in one sitting.

Casual Gamers aren't dumbing games down; obsessive losers are dragging games down because they're too retarded to cope with complexity.

Interesting point Wargamer!

For my part, I swing the pendulum between Hardcore gaming and Casual. Some games make me want to do nothing but play it to death, others I just dip into occasionally. As for all these Peggle type things, well, the next gen of gamers will have to start somewhere.

I have no hate for casual gamers. Those irrational fanboys irritate me though...

It's become apparent to me that i...actually could very well be a casual gamer now.

My game playing time is measured better in minutes rather than hours.

It's more gaming apathy i think.

In continuation to the previous posters, the greater extent to which games are seen as casual, i.e the more accessible they are, the more people play them that wouldn't usually touch games in general.

However, this leads to greater demand for games which are less complex, as greater complexity and depth usually requires more play time (feel free to prove me wrong on this). Therefore, more budget is spent upon the casual games market, leading to a deprivation in the types of games more typically enjoyed by the hardcore gamers, as it were due to less profitability for such titles.

Therefore the more people enjoy casual games, the less complex and hard games are produced by the developers.

However, with more people playing games, at least we shouldn't have negative stereotypes attached to us any longer.

I think much of it stems from the fear that many hardcore games will be either dumbed down to a semi casual nature, or developers will favour casual as opposed to hardcore games, and focus solely on them. It is perhaps and illogical fear, and an eventuallity that is likely to never happen, but it is still one I share. i would rather see the Wii die then see some of my favourite developers or franchises die or get ruined. Plus there's the fact that casual games are simply not to my taste, as many of them are about as entertaining as a game made on Newgrounds. However, i prefer not to get on my high horse and curse the name of casual games for several reasons.
a) The unlikeliness of the death of Hardcore games, seeing as that corner of the market has grown stronger if anything, with both the PS3 and especially the 360 (a relative newcomer when compared to Sony and Nintendo's experience) doing very well for themselves and having a particularly large selection of titles that I'll never get round to playing the entirety of.
b) Perhaps Nintendo is planning to gradually shift these younger/casual gamers onto the more hardcore scene? This would be beneficial in the long run for our favourite hobby.

I don't like casual gamers because I think that the desire to cater to them has diluted the market. Also, the perceived need to cater to everybody has made games too easy, even on higher difficulty levels. I don't get as much of a chance to play games like I used to, but I still enjoy a game that will make me think and be frustrated rather than an insipid boom-fest where the only puzzle is "use gun on man."

They are people it's just they are different tous as they have social lives and are looking for a quick session. They should be sen as potential gamers and not as something to be shunned. Show them the way and they will come and game with you. Hypern Verse3:12 Book Gaming of the dead

Because there will never be another Freespace; no one wants to find a keyboard layout in their PC boxes anymore. Dammit if picking up that thing, assigning it to memory and winnowing away the useless keys, finding the wheat and throwing away the chaff, wasn't one of the most rewarding experiences gaming ever gave me. It felt like an achievement to create my own piloting style from those many, many keys.

shadow skill:
Well the fact that it is a made up category of gamer is my main reason.

QFT, A gamer is a gamer.

The Birdman article actually discusses the casual gaming fallacy and why gamers hate "Casual" games. http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html

When a hardcore gamer looks at a hardcore game, he sees sophistication, magnificence, and, most important, art as if it were a mirror image facing him. When a hardcore gamer looks as a casual game, he sees simplicity, non-art, easiness, and, in sum, a retardation of gaming. Hardcore view casual games not as progress in gaming but as games tailor made for gaming retards.

"Retards!?" says a shocked reader. "Surely you can't say what you mean!" Why not? When a casual gamer picks up the standard dual shock controller, he gets confused. He doesn't have the patience to wade through these elaborate 3d worlds or memorize fourteen button combinations. While the hardcore call him "stupid", he retaliates by calling gaming "stupid".

Anytime you read 'casual games' in the news, just replace 'casual' with the word 'retard' and you will get how it is truly perceived by the industry. "There is a casual gamer boom!" should translate to "There is a retard gamer boom!". The "EA Casual Games Division" really is translated to "EA Retard Games Division". "Why are you calling casual gamers retarded!?" thunders one reader. I am not. I am saying that the hardcore industry is the one who thinks this way. 'Casual' is just a nice way of saying 'dumb' in their eyes.

The reason why hardcore gamers' hearts sink when a company says they will make the game include 'casuals' is because they know that all the edge, difficulty, and passion will be ripped out to make a generic, easy, and soul-less game.

There is No Casual Gamer

"What!" echoes someone from the balcony. "If this is true, then what will we use for this generation's meme? What will our editorialists write about? We have spilled so much ink on this subject and apply the 'casual gaming' template to every story that comes out. How can we exist without it?"

I do not know nor do I care. Hopefully, you birdmen can become a little more original.

Take the industry of home speakers (as many gamers are familiar with it). There is a wide range of product lines, is there not Mr. Reader?

"That is so," replied Mr. Reader. "There are very basic, bargain based speakers to the mid range. Then, there is the more expensive high range."

Very well... So the higher one goes, the more expensive it gets?

"Yes, Mr. Malstrom. Upper tier speakers are EXTREMELY expensive."

Now tell me, my figment-of-my-words, how does user knowledge act along the product line?

"Well, knowledge is the defining characteristic of the tiers. The more knowledge one has, that means the more audiophile one is, the more likely he or she will reach for the upper tier. At the bottom, the users know little about audio and do not care to know. The ones at the top are very passionate about their audio and will pick out separate speakers and subwoofer just to maximize their experience."

Are you saying the people on the bottom tier are stupid? Are they just casual listeners?

"Only an upper tier person would define them as 'casual'. They just don't have that much passion about audio so they don't have much knowledge."

And what creates this passion?

Mr. Reader smiled. "By having audio they want to listen to."

If there is audio they want to listen to, they will start buying these speakers, become more knowledgeable, and keep upgrading those speakers as they move up to the higher tier?

"Yes."

The Upmarket and the Downmarket

There is no casual gamer. There is no hardcore gamer. There is only the downmarket and the upmarket.