Indigo_Dingo:
But thats just it - they don't buy shovelware, they are not sheep.

Then we have games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof that have managed to sell over a million copies despite the consensus that it's irredeemable shit. Though that, I'd argue, has to do with the license...something that Wii Music really doesn't have. I've yet to see a person buy a game because it's a Wii game as opposed to buying it for its other merits.

Casual gamers? Huh no such thing exists. The simple reason is as follows, for their to be a casual set of gamers you need to have the polar opposite, i.e hardcore gamers. Now being a kid of the Spectrum age meant you were a hardcore gamer. Someone who would spend ten minutes listening to the beeps and whistles of that tape loading only for the game to crash right as it loaded. A true hardcore gamer would know if the game was going to work just by the sounds it made whilst loading and the colour of the load bars. A hardcore gamer was someone who would put up with this and then gleen some sort of pleasure from the impossible (literally) hard game that loaded. A game of only 7 colours, a game whos sound had only 10 notes, a game that had 100 levels, with no saves, with AI that would cheat, and when you died you would go back and try it all again, but only after you had found the right spot on the tape to load the first level from.

A hardcore gamer was someone who went through all the pain and anguish of getting the game to work and then get pleasure from something that really wasn't designed to give you pleasure.

Those hardcore gamers have become the driving force behind the games industry now, the late 20 early 30 somethings who have the spare cash to buy the games but don't have the seven spare hours every day to spend trying to beat some impossibly difficult boss designed to appeal to some tiny sect of the populous who laughably consider themselves to be hardcore.

Hardcore gaming is dead, gaming now is so pathetically easy that anyone who considers themselves hardcore is too young to remember what hardcore gaming really WAS about and anyone who spews hate on what is effectively the majority of the modern gaming community is to stupid to be worth worrying about

Irony man, Go!
Anyway, I only dislike them when:
A: They show no appreciation for a creation that took many many hours.
B: Make the Gaming Majority look like idiots, with the repercussions being horrid tutorials that you have to do.

Woe Is You:

Then we have games like 50 Cent: Bulletproof that have managed to sell over a million copies despite the consensus that it's irredeemable shit.

True fact.

Anyway, I was a self-confessed "casual gamer" until the death of the original xbox. I played every so often, had all the Tony Hawks games etc. Then at the start of this year I bought a 360. But it seems to me that the games have been dumbed down even more because, although I am possibily the furthest you can get from a 'hardcore gamer', a lot of the games that have been brought in the last year have been disappointingly cack in my opinion.

Well, I don't have a problem with casual gamers at all but I must say...

Jesus Dingo when did your post count suddenly go over 6000?! Last time I checked, It was still in the 4000's.

Shows how much I don't pay attention.

For me, it is not the casual gamer that is the problem, the problem lies in the developers who can get away with releasing shovelware in the guise of catering to the "casual gamer". A great game does not have to require a massive time commitment, or be insanely hard. At the same time, a game can be fun AND have intellectual depth. And yes, the game im thinking of while writing this is Portal.

Kukul:
Its not reasonable to hate them, but it;s a fact that games got so shallow these days thanks to casual gamers and their money.
But its the same with everything else from music to movies, so I guess it had to happen.

Right on the money! We can only hope for miracles now and again.

Indigo_Dingo:
And lets be completely honest here - was the last Zelda, Metroid, Super Mario or Super Smash games worse than the Gamecubes? No, in fact they were a hell of a lot better. We haven't lost Nintendo, they're doing now what they did in the Gamecube days, just now they're making a profit.

No they are not better, especially not Brawl! How about you compare it to the N64 days, thats even more sad, everyone is making profit of garbage these days and we are slowly losing Nintendo!

I don't hate casual gamers. I hate hipsters who have never played a game in their life, but suddenly show their console off shamelessly because gaming has suddenly become fahsionable. But I have no problem with casual gamers...

...the malicious little gits they are.

(joke)

TsunamiWombat's post (on Page 2) is awesome. Got to be said.

And I agree with it to a great extent. I can even see parallels within my own gaming.

Since MGO remains my main source of "PvP" gaming, let me use that. I see a lot of different game types around. I've seen games where the average skill level is 7 or 8, and other where I've been kicked because my Skill level was too high (at 4, dropping to 3 if I have a bad game).

I'm guessing the people playing in the Level 8-10 "Hardcore" Sniper match would see me as a "Casual" gamer. From my point of view, I just don't see the need to become that obsessively good. I like to win. I feel genuine pride when I take out five enemies with five consecutive head-shots, or when I tranquillize someone from halfway across the level during a Team Sneaking mission. However, I don't have the time, patience or even the inclination to dedicate HOURS of my life memorising every nook and cranny of every level, perfecting how to jink out, go into First Person, head-shot a running target and dart back into cover. My interest in the game doesn't go that far.

On the other hand, I have Little Big Planet. I have put considerable time and effort into trying to create my own levels. I test them extensively. I make sure you can complete all the challenges I set, I make sure everything works right. I make sure the sounds are good and the music plays and everything flows. Whereas a 'casual' Little Big Planet gamer might make an Assault Course you can't actually do without having to lose one life making the sponge platform swing (seen it done before now), I remove those faults. I try and have themes, and even a story. I am moving toward the "Hard Core" Little Big Planet players.

But I don't resent the casual LBG gamers. I get pissed off when their level is buggy and has blatant design flaws, but I get pissed off at professionals when they do that to. I don't go around bitching how some brat doing a piss-poor copy of a Spongebob Squarepants episode is making LittleBigPlanet "Retarded", I just don't play their levels.

And this is what people who want to be called 'Hard Core' should accept. Not all of us want to play by your rules. Some of us rather like playing against opponents who can empty an entire mag at you and hit nothing but air. Some of us enjoy levels where very crude traps work. Some of us haven't memorised where every Cardboard Box on the level is, and thus spot when someone's hiding. All of us want to have fun playing games, and not everyone thinks your way is fun.

The reason hardcore gamers hate casual gamers is because hardcore gamers are ashamed to admit they like video games, and casual gamers bring their insecurities to light.

You know the REAL reason behind the "Real Is Brown" fad? The real reason behind the Grizzled Space Marines? The real reason behind all the scarface-worship gangsta crap? It's simple: Hardcore gamers are too embarrassed to admit they're playing with toys, so they gravitate towards washed-out, hyper-violent "realism" as a way of pretending that they are not doing that. That's why any game with bright colors is dismissed as a "casual" game, and anyone who doesn't like playing a grizzled space marine is a "casual" gamer.

For fuck's sake, there are gamers out there who like to play Guitar Hero with the TV's sound turned off because they say "the music distracts from the game." This is "hardcore" gaming at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.

The real distinguishing feature of these so-called "casual" games is that unlike the gray-brown shooters, the casual games are willing to admit they're toys. That's why they're so reviled. They're spotlighting the insecurities of the "hardcore" gamers.

I personally don't like casual gamers, I also dislike most of the really hardcore gamers that lose their jobs/family/house due to gaming. I actually have what seems to the the perfect steryotype of them from what i could tell from playing WoW, I just recently took a 6 month break because I became tired of both of these groups constantly bothering my gameplay because I wasn't going out of my way to help them or I wasnt in a hardcore endgame raiding guild because I thought they were full of Nazis.... which in my server most of them are. But as far as it goes the ones that I hate the most have to be that I call the "harcore noobs" which are essentially the people that are talked into playing the game then wind up getting power leveled by their RL buddy, then wind up going straight to T2 (Original) or T5 (Burning Crusade) or T8 (Wrath), then a week later wind up in 2 parts of T3,6,9. I call them hardcore noobs because since they had too much help while levelling they never learned how to play the game properly, as well as they look down on everyone who doesn't have the same kind of gear that they do for any reason that there may be beause they just started and they already have it so everyone in less gear must be complete garbage players. And truthfully its the PVE people that piss me off over the PVP people BECAUSE, my server is a PVP server, the people who think that PVE is the only way to go and always whine and bitch and moan about getting ganked by someone or killed by someone they attacked with less gear and did I mention that they are the main reason for all of the PVP nerfs. Of course naturally I just tell all of them to go play on a QVQ server where they belong, unfortunately I can't physically hit some of the more hypocritical ones (especially the ones whom I know to be complete and utter retards who have no idea how to do the things they complain about). On the other end of the spectrum I don't like the casuals who intend to stay casuals jsut because when they start playing this is what they do every time without fail. *Enter, /who 60/70/80 (whatever the cap happens to be), find first guild name that sticks out, right click, whisper, HAI I JST STRTED PLAYING TUDAYZ CN I HABE SUM HELP PLZ PLZ PLZ, Enter* Then if you do help them they become dependant on it and then continue to bother you over and over and over and over until you either report them for harassment, verbally assault them or finally you just snap let them have it and then put them on your ignore list for the rest of time or until they make a character named sdorijfs and whisper you *hay y u ignor me* you reply "FUCK OFF" and ignore their character, then 2 hrs later a gm comes along "hey you cant say bad words on our game to people who dont know how to use the language filter even though they had to conciously turn it off" you reply "oh lawdy lawd massa gm I'se neva gonna swear again" "is there anything we can help you with today since we are totally trying to be helpful and not biased even though our logs totally show he was harassing you over and over and over and over and we arent going to do anything about it because he reported you first"

Anyways that bit about the GMs is totally true for those of you who don't play WoW, NEVER START, PLEASE I'M BEGGING YOU! For those of you who do play WoW BOYCOT ANYTHING INVOLVING UNDER 30 (unless it is your twink), because level 30 is that magical level when noobs start to develop their ignorant little brains and start to become halfway intelligent, contributing members of the auction house inventory or sales, then eventually leading towards people who finally make it to the max level and know how to play. As for me, I don't fall into the Hardcore PVP or PVE group. I just camp anyone who happens to have had the misfortune of being in my line of sight until they either log off and/or cancel their subscription, I only do this to the under 30 bracket because they are the ones who need to learn the vicious cycle of the PVP cycle the most, anything over has to deal with other people its own level... though I'm not entirely above getting a few friends and camping some random town and everyone in it for a few hours at a time so that the high levels don't forget that PVP exists outside of BGs. This means my group isn't hardcore or casual, we are just the people that put both in their place every chance we get, which makes us regulators *starts singing to self*
(If you dont get that joke go listen to Regulators by Warren G its a great song its old rap)
Also, yes I know that was a long ass rant to go through for a bad punch line. And I meant most everything in it.

Shiuz91:

axia777:

EzraPound:

For me it is not the casual gamers but the casual games. Devs are know latching onto the idea like it is pure gold. It is diluting the market as they turn the limited amount of development cash away from other types of games into the so called casual games market. And thus shovelware by the metric ton load is made. This period will pass and the core market will still be here.

Dude, you're a dumbass. 'Shovelware' has always existed, and never sold particularly well (the only reason developers create it is because of low production costs, not high sales), regardless of how 'hardcore' the market is. Do you know how much 'shovelware' is on the NES? Or how much was made on the PC in the eighties - at that time the epitome of a 'hardcore' platform? All it takes is common sense to realize that a) shovelware is not significantly detracting from the sales of good games (the Wii's top sellers, for example, are all predictable: Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Zelda: TP, Metroid Prime 3, etc), and b) the abundance of it on any given platform has historically had more to do with the easiness of development than with the size of the installed user base.

Fuck, the hardcore are as bad or worse than the casual gamers. They rant and bitch as if being a 'casual gamer' causes you to have an innate impulse to run out and buy Ninjabread Man, then hype sequels that are deliriously complex variants of their predecessors and bring nothing new to the table. In the future, try knowing what you're talking about before opening your mouth.

Go screw yourself asshat.

I agree calling Hardcore gamers worse than casual gamers is just blasphemy. So go screw yourself a$$hat.

You sirs are the real asshats, it is quite obvious that both of you are hardcore gamers defending yourselves.

sorry bout the double

Indigo_Dingo:
All over this site, there are people who treat them on a level akin to Nazis in terms of being vilified. What the fuck? They are people who enjoy playing games a little less than us, and suddenly they are scum of the earth? They enjoy some games that you don't enjoy, so the hell what? Do I look down on women cause they buy and use clothes that I don't wear?

(and yes, I'm aware of the irony that this is a rant against people who rant against casual gamers)

Thank you...Thank you for not titling this thread "Why All the Hate on "Casual" Gamers"

Ahem... I, as a casual gamer myself don't have a problem. Gaming is about having fun, why should I judge how one does that?

Shiuz91:

Deadarm:

Shiuz91:

axia777:

EzraPound:

For me it is not the casual gamers but the casual games. Devs are know latching onto the idea like it is pure gold. It is diluting the market as they turn the limited amount of development cash away from other types of games into the so called casual games market. And thus shovelware by the metric ton load is made. This period will pass and the core market will still be here.

Dude, you're a dumbass. 'Shovelware' has always existed, and never sold particularly well (the only reason developers create it is because of low production costs, not high sales), regardless of how 'hardcore' the market is. Do you know how much 'shovelware' is on the NES? Or how much was made on the PC in the eighties - at that time the epitome of a 'hardcore' platform? All it takes is common sense to realize that a) shovelware is not significantly detracting from the sales of good games (the Wii's top sellers, for example, are all predictable: Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Zelda: TP, Metroid Prime 3, etc), and b) the abundance of it on any given platform has historically had more to do with the easiness of development than with the size of the installed user base.

Fuck, the hardcore are as bad or worse than the casual gamers. They rant and bitch as if being a 'casual gamer' causes you to have an innate impulse to run out and buy Ninjabread Man, then hype sequels that are deliriously complex variants of their predecessors and bring nothing new to the table. In the future, try knowing what you're talking about before opening your mouth.

Go screw yourself asshat.

I agree calling Hardcore gamers worse than casual gamers is just blasphemy. So go screw yourself a$$hat.

You sirs are the real asshats, it is quite obvious that both of you are hardcore gamers defending yourselves.

sorry bout the double

Well if defending the gaming lifestyle we enjoy makes us asshats then I'll take a hat preferably a blue beaked beanie.

rofl

Us or them mentality. Sums up everything rather nicely. Us or them.

Shiuz91:

Isaac Dodgson:

Indigo_Dingo:
All over this site, there are people who treat them on a level akin to Nazis in terms of being vilified. What the fuck? They are people who enjoy playing games a little less than us, and suddenly they are scum of the earth? They enjoy some games that you don't enjoy, so the hell what? Do I look down on women cause they buy and use clothes that I don't wear?

(and yes, I'm aware of the irony that this is a rant against people who rant against casual gamers)

Thank you...Thank you for not titling this thread "Why All the Hate on "Casual" Gamers"

Ahem... I, as a casual gamer myself don't have a problem. Gaming is about having fun, why should I judge how one does that?

Well being a hardcore gamer allow me first to apologize for any bashing you've gotten some of it may have been done by me but that's just how hardcore gamers treat non-hardcore gamers. Most casual gamers are pretty bad at most games so we ridicule you think of hardcore gamers as the U.S. and casual gamers as Switzerland

It's ok really... In all your "bashing" and ridicule, that you give people, you only further your own stereotype as bitter, annoying, social skill lacking "losers" and become fodder for insults from the other end, and material for me and my friends...

See, I'm not someone who will sit and grind away at WoW for hours on end, but I will grind away at platformers, or action games every now and then when I have the time. I get out though, I have a social life away from the TV and console. When I use the phrase "Pwn Mad n00bs!" it's usually always in a sarcastic or ironic tone, and quite frankly your group's elitist ideas could stem from the lack of acceptance by anyone else.

Ahem...this is the group in general, by no means anyone personally.

Eggo:
Yeah, you just post on internet forums about how much of a tough guy you are.

That's awesome.

You know, I really can't disagree with you on this. I tried and I tried, but nothing's coming to me. Have I let you down?

Indigo_Dingo:
Interesting....I do the exact same things, and yet I consider myself a hardcore gamer.

It's also my opinion that there are different levels of hardcore and casual...that it's not just black and white, but a whole spectrum...

On one and we have the Uber-Elitists. Stereotypically social outcasts, aside from their own close knit group of friends who are the same. They care little about personal appearance and hygiene, as they don't offer charisma points in real life (but oh if they really did). Typically out of shape, or unhealthy because of their obsession with gaming taking far too much time. Stubborn, they'll argue till they are blue in the face about a game, or weapon in a game. Also quick to judge and claim you "suck" if you don't meet their standards during the Halo 3, or CounterStrike match.

On the other end we have the Ignorant Hobbyist. They don't know a damn thing about one company or another, how the technology works in any regards, and simply play a game, usually for about an hour or so before moving on. Games like Wii Sports, or even Guitar Hero on easy, or medium are what they gravitate to, but are up to try anything, even if they'll get pissed off at it in a matter of moments because it's "too hard."

People are seldom either extreme, but fall somewhere in the middle.

Indigo_Dingo:

Isaac Dodgson:

Shiuz91:

Isaac Dodgson:

Indigo_Dingo:
All over this site, there are people who treat them on a level akin to Nazis in terms of being vilified. What the fuck? They are people who enjoy playing games a little less than us, and suddenly they are scum of the earth? They enjoy some games that you don't enjoy, so the hell what? Do I look down on women cause they buy and use clothes that I don't wear?

(and yes, I'm aware of the irony that this is a rant against people who rant against casual gamers)

Thank you...Thank you for not titling this thread "Why All the Hate on "Casual" Gamers"

Ahem... I, as a casual gamer myself don't have a problem. Gaming is about having fun, why should I judge how one does that?

Well being a hardcore gamer allow me first to apologize for any bashing you've gotten some of it may have been done by me but that's just how hardcore gamers treat non-hardcore gamers. Most casual gamers are pretty bad at most games so we ridicule you think of hardcore gamers as the U.S. and casual gamers as Switzerland

It's ok really... In all your "bashing" and ridicule, that you give people, you only further your own stereotype as bitter, annoying, social skill lacking "losers" and become fodder for insults from the other end, and material for me and my friends...

See, I'm not someone who will sit and grind away at WoW for hours on end, but I will grind away at platformers, or action games every now and then when I have the time. I get out though, I have a social life away from the TV and console. When I use the phrase "Pwn Mad n00bs!" it's usually always in a sarcastic or ironic tone, and quite frankly your group's elitist ideas could stem from the lack of acceptance by anyone else.

Ahem...this is the group in general, by no means anyone personally.

Interesting....I do the exact same things, and yet I consider myself a hardcore gamer.

The more I read, the people that tend to use 'hardkore gamer' generally mean either GAMIN IS SRS BIZNEZ or, and thankfully more often, in reference to a great deal of knowledge about games and gaming culture and a tendency towards games that are NINTENDO HARD. Really, this whole US OR THEM FGTS mentality is nothing more than people posturing and trying to look manlier. Enjoy what you enjoy, casual nor hardcore gaming is killing the industry.

implodingMan:
I only have a problem with them when developers take established series that I enjoy and change them so that they are more marketable towards casuals.

Other than that I don't give a damn about them.

you know that you don't have to buy a game like that, I mean I wouldn't complain if I saw something racist on TV BECAUSE I can change the channel and games cost a lot more than TV but I suppose that if you didn't know it was for more casual gamers you can be annoyed but not dislike or in some peoples cases hate casual gamers for it.

I liked the 50 cent game. I'm 24, been playing games for a long time, I'm not a noob or anything. So this somehow means I suck or something? I don't get it, some people are way too elitist. I think reviews and the internet are the two worst things to happen to gaming ever.

[quote="SeymourB" post="9.77643.956006I sure hope you're joking. The original SSB had what? 12 characters, 12 stages? SSBB has about 36 characters and 41 stages plus a stage builder. Sure, a lot of the characters are clones (Im looking at you Fox/Falco/Wolf, Kirby/Jigglypuff)but you just can't compare the size of the two. Its like comparing the original MGS to MGS 4.[/quote]

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant compared to Melee and the rest of the games on Wii compared to the N64 games. You cannot deny there were alot of huge flaws in Brawl!

While I would agree that most games these days are being 'dumbed down' I don't think you can blame it on the casual gamers. Mainly because they are a completely different market.

Let's get to some figures (According to the Casual Games Association's 2007 report)
Above 70% of the paying audience is female.
Over half are over 35
The casual games industry is worth $2.25 billion (Serious money but still small in the industry at large.)

The most popular titles are
Solitare
Tetris
Bejewelled
QQ Games Collection
Mystery Case Files

Now do not try and tell me that say Fallout 3 has been dumbed down to appeal to this market. If you want to blame someone then please blame videogame reviewers who have for the last ten years scored down games for having overly complex game mechanics and who have increasingly praised games like Halo or Gears of War for their intuitive gameplay.

Don't believe me that we should be blaming the journos? Well I direct your attention to every Mirror's Edge review that complained that it was too difficult, or that the controls weren't intuitive. Developers are just trying to max out their Metacritic scores and dumbing down their games is basically a prerequisite.

Personally, i feel (like others on this forum) that it's a matter of perspective. most of my friend's would define me as 'hardcore' becuase i play my PS3 daily, for 2-3 hours. however, compared to what i used to do on my PC and N64 (Champ Man and Goldeneye) this is very low key.

Of course being a full time worker who is married to a 'casual gamer'(my wife owns a WII and a DS, and Ninja bread man, which isn't terrible btw)means i don't have as much free time to invest, so i don't get OCD about maxing out my knowledge of a specific game.

we are both very competitive on WII sports. For those who look down on the WII, WII sports comes with the system...

Having said all that, i am OCD about COD4 online, but not so much that i don't enjoy prestiging. current level 50 on prestige 9, and avoiding getting world at war until after Xmas methinks. i want to max out COD4 because i enjoy it. i am quite elitist about who i play with, not because i dislike playing with 'noobs', but because i don't like playing with people who don't participate in the team aspect of it, i.e. playing as a sniper when on HQ ( just stupid), or people who TK on purpose for no good reason. i have no issues with new players, we were all 'noobs' at some point in our gaming lives...

slight digression there. I can see the point made previously about 'mainstream' and 'casual' being fair, and probably closest to my own opinion.

personally, the only people I would ever call 'hardcore' are professional gamers. To everyone else, its a hobby, to them its a way of life.

I don't like it when an excuse is given to be successful when your effort is mediocre. Why should a company who makes great games make less money than the people who make a terrible game like "dogz"? it's unfair and gives people an easy way out.