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Well, that's an interesting thought, and you're right that when they actually drag you to court all that hyperbole is going to not matter. When you download a video game, you are in violation of Federal Code 17 USCS 506, which states: (a) Criminal infringement. So no, the Feds don't think you stole a car either. | |
Your feds can do nothing to me. | |
Ah...I'm afraid your government decided to change that a couple of years ago... | |
On further investigation the UK are on a different page, but still your feds can't touch me. We have our own people. | |
Oh well naturally, this sort of thing is always handled in-house. Hush-hush, that sort of thing. For any other nationalities curious about this, here's a .pdf that covers every single copyright treaty since the 1900's and whose on board with it. | |
Hmm, never really thought of it that way, but by that analogy, most book shops that I know of don't allow you to read their books or magazines without paying for them anyway. | |
No, it's still theft. It's just not theft in the traditional sense. Theft implies taking something that you did not legally acquire. This is why the law has been altered to include illegal downloading of digital media in the area of theft. | |
It's theft if you can afford it and you are trying to resell it for profit. | |
I love how the person above me just distorted a fact to suit his opinion on the subject. And kudos to the OP, you may be on to something here and I agree with everything you said. *pause for a moment See? It doesn't work now does it? | |
If it's not theft it's still by no means a nice thing to do. What would you prefer we say? I don't approve of illegal downloading of Bootleg merchandise regardless of it's form in media.. be it Music, Game, or other? it's easier to say "QUIT STEALING SHIT." even if it's.. as you would argue... not stealing. I've got another analogy for you.. i won't insult you buy involving automobiles, planes, trains, B&E or chocolate Bars. If you created some kind of widget that you were proud of enough to sell other people and i acquired it by some means (nefarious or otherwise) would you appreciate it if i ignored all the laws of the land and began manufacturing it for my self? Even if i haven't hurt or I have even helped your bottom line, i've still violated your rights... which is really the whole point isn't it? The actual items don't matter, Hershey doesn't care if you take a candy bar, they do care if you start making Hersheee Kisses'ss's that are identical to Hershey's Kisses. I know it's cliche but... IT'S THE PRINCIPLE OF THE THING! and in principle you are depriving people of their rights. you can argue it's not stealing, but.. i don't care. "Stealing" is a term both sides of the argument respect, even so much as defining it as something your not doing. Therefore it's useful to us as a term to describe what you are doing regardless of it's accuracy. While for the moment i may concede that illegally downloading media may nto be stealing, it's still immoral and it's still illegal and you still shouldn't do it.. happy? | |
aren't you just doing the same thing in your argument? you are limiting theft to one definition, language and terminology evolves so yes it's theft but an a for effort | |
Mostly im saying there should be a new term specifically for it to separate it from theft of physical property. And about the widget making example above - its closer to looking at the widget, and making your own for use at home. Making a copy and selling it is beyond regular downloading. On a separate note there should be a big difference between people who download, and those who download movies then make 100 copies and sell them for $5 each. But the RIAA and similar seem to have more fun going after kids then the easy to find people who sell hundreds of pirated things. And to the definition of copyright infringment only this applies really.... | |
you mean like theft of intellectual property or digital theft? | |
I declare that this new word/term SHALL BE. ILLEGAL REPRODUCTION! (of copyrighted material) | |
They do where i come from. | |
Look at it this way then had you not acquired the game through "piracy" you would have had tto of bought it from a store. That is why this is theft. There is no way around it. | |
Really? I was thinking "butt-buddies". The pirates would still be tried for theft, only instead of saying theft, we say "butt-buddies". You're taking something that does not belong to you without permission. Is it really that big of a problem to call that theft? | |
Using the word "theft" is a way of demonizing file-sharers, but it's never actually been practically treated as theft - always as copyright infringement. I think "copyright infringement" is the unknown phrase you're searching for in that post. | |
In all seriousness , what you are actually doing is reproducing copyrighted material without permission , it's not really theft . | |
I beleive the politicially correct term for it is "intellectual theft" which makes much more sense than "theft". As much as I pirate games, I tend to do it out of spite for a game company (often) making the gaming uplayable due to DRM (and I am not buying a new fucking dvd drive, they want my money they can supply me with a product that works), I don't try and pretend that what I'm doing isn't wrong and isn't completely unfair to the people who have worked hard to deliver a product. There are lots of people who work on games who have nothing to do with the 'bad' elements of the product. However, a more appropiate comparison than theft would be theft of ideas. For example if I was to invtent something, I dunno a hydrogen fuel cell engine or something, and I kept the designs on my computer. It would be like somebody else hacking my computer and making my blueprints/drawings public, thus eliminating by chance to sell them and make money. Hardly fair and in a sense my opportunity as been stolen. Or maybe it could be compared to plagurism, pasing off someone elses ideas/work as your own without permission and without actually physically removing it from their possession. Hardly fair, I rarely let people I don't know use my work. You can argue that they are already selling games and that you wouldn't have bought it anyway, but even by seeding it (which most people do as games download) you are screwing them out of money that the devs are (apparently) entitled to. | |
Don't we already have a word for it? | |
No. It's theft. Deal with it. | |
I refuse to believe you unless somebody less lazy then I can get a definition link. And like I asked before, is this really that big of a deal? This is so far down on the list of "bad shit other people don't want you to do" that it just seems silly to make this big of a fuss over what to call it. It's illegal. End of story. If you do it anyway is up to you, but it's not like it's the difference between murder and homicide. | |
Not theft in the traditional sense, but still theft. In effect, no institution that we love would logically be in place, since they can't make money off of it. Movies wouldn't make the millions of dollars required to even repay the budget needed to make the film, musicians wouldn't be able to focus on their art since they would be required to work three jobs to support themselves, and our sweet video game devs wouldn't have the time or money to develop a play-worthy game. Theft is taking something that isn't yours. It doesn't matter if it's physical or otherwise. I can steal your identity, that's not a physical thing (I mean, the actual card is, but using your codes etc.). By your logic, that's not theft.
Actually, it really is, since you're taking something that doesn't belong to you for your own enjoyment without any form of return for the other party. It would be fine if they said "Oh, hey. You can have this for free. I dinnae' care." But since they request fees for their goods, you are obliged to pay them. If you don't, you're stealing. Plain and simple. | |
I don't get it, whats the difference from downloading a game and stealing a copy from Gamestop? Isn't it the same thing? | |
Basically, if you steal the copy from Gamestop, that's one less copy they have to sell to someone else. Doesn't make it any less reprehensible in my eyes, though. | |
Yes you are. Your stealing a copy they could be selling to YOU. It doesn't matter if you steal a copy, they will have another for someone else anyway. The point is if you download it, they lose money straight up. | |
Well Sir Schmoopy of Awesomton (Okay I don't know how to spell that right now They are losing money either way. You are getting a copy for free depriving them of money | |
It is stealing, we just call it piracy to show what kind of theft. But it doesn't matter what you call it, a rose by any other name and all that. So they still have a hard copy, you didn't take that, you just took the money they would have made from the sale. <-- Explain how that is ever O.K. If I stole 120 bucks to buy a game you would call it theft, but if the money and game are credit and data its piracy, a form of theft. | |
Lets face it folks, Thanks to the internet things have changed, and perhaps thats a good thing. Part of the problem is that people will always take the means to get somethign they want that costs them the least. Few people are afraid of reprisal and while I have to admit I would not want to do something that could take away money I don't have in court most people will live with the fact that the risk is low. The way Media is created, presented and produced is changing and society is going to be dragged along with it kicking and screaming. I find it Ironic that the creator of Urealms has posted here on this topic because it gives me a prime example of this shift in society. Without going into my personal feelings about the series I will say that I know alot of work is put into it. this work creates a program that adds to the amount of data that you can now use as an alternative to Television shows. In the future as the means for individuals to produce forms of entertainment become more and more advanced they will draw more and more people away from current mainstream entertainment. People are going to want to capitalize on this, and if they want to do that it means a shift in how things are done now. Copyright law is going to have to change, because file sharing and pirating and things like that won't. As we move away from mediums like TV where Ad dollars and Subscription fees cover all the costs this new generation of producers for Entertainment and other content are going to have to find a way to use file sharing to their advantage. After all you can only make so much from internet adds and being members of sites like the escapist. I don't know Mister Moran, (or if I'm spelling that right) but I'm willing to bet this gig does not pay enough to support him long term. Factor in things like inflation, the impending growth of internet entertainment, and the fact that he may want to expand a family, own a home or do other things like that and you realize that growth must come from somewhere. File sharing seems like the logical choice, though how it would be implemented is still unclear. But people are going to download the free content, and people are going to put up any 'special exclusive content' that comes with DVDs or books to be torrented or viewed on sites like Youtube. Its only going to grow as time goes on and the only way to shut it down is going to be taking down the internet because lord knows you can't stop it. People have been getting around restrictions put on the internet ever since it moved out of the Research labs that initially used it. If independent producers of content are going to live off of it long term, especially as more people join their ranks, then things like File sharing and free redistribution are going to have to be accepted and turned so that they can get a piece of it. Yes I realize the hole in this argument is that at this time there is no way to do that, but what I am saying is it should be looked into. Perhaps if people looked at file sharing as a potential growth market and a way to help encourage more people to put content out there things will change. All I know is for now its here to stay, wrong or right. We are never going to get rid of it, best to try and put a positive spin on it. | |
It's not theft in the US (see Dowling v. United States: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/473/207.html ). The legal term is Copyright Infringement. It's an infringement of property rights. You know what infringing property rights is called? Trespass. And just as we can have several degrees of trespass, we have several degrees of illicit downloading. And arrh, matey, this be effing piracy: | |
Whatever you say, OP! Here, downloading is legal. As long as you don't upload. :-) *dances* | |
The game could have been rented from a store. The original company won't make money if you rent from Blockbuster or Gamefly. The same goes for borrowing, EA didn't make money when my friend lent me his copy of Crysis. Is that stealing? | |
Yes, but Gamestop purchased that disk from the company that produced said game. Gamestop would lose the money that was spent on that copy of the game. Where as in pirating, what is lost is an non-existant profit that could be payed for the game, but no company loses additional money from the act. | |
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I know there are other posts on illegal downloading, but this is not the same thing. This thread is to try and stop people from using the wrong words in their arguments, and to realize that in our digital world, old terms and systems dont nessecarily apply. You cant use the same rules for a digital signal that can be reproduced 1000000 times for free as you can for a loaf of bread.
Over and over again I see people making comments like `You wouldnt steal a BMW would you?` or `How would you feel if you were mugged on the street`, but these comments have nothing to do with downloading, even as an analogy.
Downloading movies, music and games is not theft. A definition of theft : The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same.
When something is downloaded, the music artist, game company, etc loses nothing, there is no piece of property that vanishes from their homes or businesses. If I download a game for free, the only thing that company loses is the CHANCE to POSSIBLY sell that game to me, a chance they may never have had in the first place. For example - if someone in a country where a game is not sold to downloads it, what did the company loose? They could have never sold to that person in the first place, it would have no effect on their profits at all, so is it theft? Of course not! Did the company lose a cent? No! Is it illegal? Apparently.
Now, I am not saying that there is nothing wrong with illegal downloading. It is illegal, it can hurt the game, music, movie, etc makers. But it is not theft, it is something new that needs its own name. I just dont want to see anymore stupid arguments comparing it to breaking and entering, stealing cars or chocolate bars, etc, as I know the downloading issue is one that will be constantly brought up over and over again as new legislation passes.
In short, downloading can reduce profits, in some cases increase them by spreading knowledge of a product, and in some cases make no change in sales at all. It is not theft and should not be referred to as such. You may as well say that if you walk into a book store, sit down and read a book, then put it back on the shelf and leave that you stole from the store. Maybe call it `potential/possible loss of sales`, or `reduction in maximum possible revenue`, but not theft, and its nothing like stealing a car or any physical object.
Any posts to this thread, please lets avoid posts on if you agree or disagree with downloading, keep it to the topic of whether it is theft or something different, and maybe options for what to call it.