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Copy Clerk  Posts: 83 Joined: 1 Nov 2008     | |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 490 Joined: 23 Nov 2007    |
Yes, but even then, EA made money when Gamefly or Blockbuster or the guy who sold the game to Gamestop bought the game the first time around, so they've made their sale. What publishers have to realize is, when x% of a game's players are playing pirated copies, then (100-x)% of that game's players (plus or minus some percentage of borrowers and renters) have plunked down hard earned dosh for that game, in spite of it being widely and readily available for free, and that (100-x)% of players are either suckers, or brave supporters of gaming development, depending on what you want to call them. There are two questions that follow from that. First, how do you treat that (100-x)% of your audience that has shown that they will gladly give you money in exchange for playing your game? And second, how much of that revenue from the (100-x)% gets factored into your development budget for the next go round of whatever franchise or title you're concerned with? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2869 Joined: 7 Oct 2008    |
Yeah, me too. It's like photocopying a book that you're supposed to buy. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 606 Joined: 26 Sep 2008   |
Ironically enough, this was such a problem that my old university had to implement a per-student page limit on the printers per semester. Now THAT'S sad. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4095 Joined: 6 Sep 2008     | It's still theft. Sorry. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 490 Joined: 23 Nov 2007 |
Just because you say so doesn't make it so. |
Creator of Unforgotten Realms  Posts: 581 Joined: 15 Apr 2008   |
No. That isn't how it works. The COST to make the game is ILLRELEVANT. By NOT purchasing the game and downloading it you are simply TAKING the money from the company, it is EXACTLY the same as stealing a copy from a gamestop. You are not PULLING this product from thin air and har har it's virtual goods so it doesn't count. Gamestop loses money because THEY cannot sell the game they ordered for the customer, the DEVELOPERS lose money because they can't sell to the suppliers. Don't think this shit isn't stealing because it is. If you honestly think illegal downloading is perfecting fine then you are a complete tool because you are only hurting the industry. If you COULDN'T download the game, then you would have to PAY money for it. You might use the arguement "Oh well I wouldn't pay for this crap". Well to freaking bad, entertainment is entertainment. You might not pay for it but that doesn't mean you can just get it for free, go get your jollies somewhere else if you don't want to pay for it. Hey, if you want to pirate some games, go for it. I mean I honestly don't care but to go around proclaiming your not stealing and it doesn't matter then you just oblivious to the rippling effect this stuff causes. 50,000 people decide not to buy "INSERT AAA TITLE GAME" but instead rip it off the net, Small Game Company is now out 250,0000 dollars for there title because people stole it instead of bought it and there predicted numbers are now lower, Small Game Company has two choices now as they did not make the return on there AAA title to make another game, call it quits or let EA buy them out. Freeshards for MMOs, Bit Torrenting games, hell even buying shit used from gamestop, all that does is hurt developers and means the games of tomorrow are going to be crappier. Don't say that shit doesn't matter cause trust me it does. I'm the kinda guy who runs a small business and makes a little web cartoon. if escapist and me ever parted ways I would make all my bank off merchandise, a majority of that being DVD sales. You want to rip my shit off the net instead of paying for it, more power to you but when the money runs out I'm gonna have to close up shop. It's Stealing. |
Muckraker  Posts: 270 Joined: 24 Jul 2008    | Game developers need money to live off. By downloading games they have made when they could be doing other jobs you are depriving them of their income. You can't buy what you need from downloads. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 490 Joined: 23 Nov 2007 | For those who feel that downloading==theft, please rate the following thefts on a scale of 1-10, where 1 is stealing a copy of Tom Hanks' private fax number to send him a happy birthday card, and 10 is pushing an old lady down the stairs to take her purse and her social security check: A) Downloading a Kangaroo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_(arcade_game) )ROM to play in MAME B) Downloading a copy of Renegade Legion: Interceptor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renegade_Legion:_Interceptor#Computer_Game ) C) Downloading either the DC or the PS1 version of Dragon Riders: Chronicles of Pern( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonriders_of_Pern#Games ) D) Downloading a cracked copy of game that you've purchased so you can install a copy that's free from DRM E) Making and mounting a disc image, or applying a no-cd patch so that you can avoid disc checks F) Downloading a ROM of a GBA cart that you've purchased, to play on a GBA emu on an XBox Classic G) Downloading Bioshock |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 772 Joined: 25 Jun 2008   | As I have said before, right or wrong its not going to stop. I don't claim to know how to work it, but long term things are going to have to change. People will always get things for free if they can, and with the world Economy the way it is most people are going to hoard every penny they can. I'm not an Economist, I don't know exactly what changes are needed, but changes are needed because the threat of prosecution is really not enough to stop the overwhelming number of people doing it. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 848 Joined: 4 Jun 2008    | Maybe the definition of theft should just be updated?
I think it's bloody simple: pirates win because they get games for free and companies lose because they don't get money. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 706 Joined: 8 Sep 2008 | sorry but... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7734985.stm pay special attention to the part where it mentions AK47's and fucking RPG's. sure, copyright is wrong in many cases. so is treating your customers like shit, then adding nazi DRM (and price fixing). whether it justifies copyright infringement or not is wrong, but i think i remember hearing about some case where a guy who downloaded a bunch music/movies/games was punished worse than he would have been for raping a baby, i personally think thats wrong. but then, im AGAINST the raping of babies, a position which is clearly NOT shared by RIAA and its video game equivilent. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 365 Joined: 10 Jan 2008    | Ah, the poor companies. Stubbornly clinging to a failing paradigm. In my opinion, the situation is like when Gutenberg invented movable type, and the book producers insist on only selling hand made copies of books at hand copied prices. Taking morality out of the equation, it all comes down to price, ease, and availability. That's some pretty stiff competition. The obvious answer is to lash out and make it so people can't download illegally. The problem is: these "better mousetraps" are quickly defeated and only serve to pinch the toes of those who acquire through conventional means. No the answer does not lie in the clenched fist, but rather the open hand. As the old saying goes: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Price: don't try to make up lost profits by charging more. Instead, remember back to Economics 101 and those supply and demand curves. With downloading supply is practically infinite, so what you have to do is influence demand. Easiest way to do that? Lower the price. The goal is when faced with the choice: "download legally or download illegally" you want the customer to say: "For that price it's not worth the extra hassle to download illegally" |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1651 Joined: 15 Oct 2008    |
It is still not stealing. It is COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. When someone gets arrested for downloading something illegally, the person is tried for copyright infringement. The only time it is not copyright infringement is if that person is in a country that does not honor copyrights of the country where the product is made. I.E. Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Edit: Forgot to mention this, I am a firm believer in borrowing and purchasing used games. Especially when the game is no longer in production. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 111 Joined: 3 Jul 2008  | Yeah, that's what amuses me. "You wouldn't steal a car! which costs 20 thousand bux and was bought by a household! But you would steal a film thats costs 10 dollars inwhich the production company is making millions from? oh, cool." |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1651 Joined: 15 Oct 2008 |
There was a case that happened a year or so ago in California. A older woman ripped some music off a cd that she purchased. She then sent the songs to her friend via Email. The music industry arrested her and fined her a lot of money. The company that sued her made a statement that basically said, if she gave her friend a copy of the cd in person, then it would not be copyright infringement. The moral of the story is that it is only illegal when at least one of two conditions occur. 1) The transfer of data occurs online. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 175 Joined: 6 Aug 2008 | Meh to this argument. You are just splitting semantic hairs. I bet if a criminal stole your identity and "downloaded" all the money out of your bank-account into his you'd be much less concerned about whether to call it "theft" or not. Bottom line, you get someone that ordinarily costs money for free by circumventing sercurity, you are a theif. |
On the Record  Posts: 5001 Joined: 28 Feb 2008   | Everything has its roots in money. (and in turn, power and prestige) |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
See, so we don't even call it theft. It's called willful infringement. To willfully "encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another." To trespass on someone's intellectual property. To allow your thoughts to exist inside thoughts that belong to someone else. Literally, from the law, it is to think thoughts you are not allowed to think. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
No. The criminal would need to have stolen my identity, then copied the same quantity of money into his own bank account. It fails as an analogy. Thievery of the past was about the physical object. If I took a can of peas, my thievery was that of the can's production cost and how much the retailer lost from its removal. Now that a can of peas can be copied, companies are forced to say they have a right to be paid for the ~idea~ of a can of peas. Have a right to claim the mental realm a can of peas occupies. Whether or not I ~would have~ purchased the can of peas is immaterial, both to the this conversation and to the companies who hold the rights to certain thoughts. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
Beat Writer Posts: 141 Joined: 26 Aug 2008 | By downloading a game off the internet are you not effectively giving yourself financial gain by taking goods and not paying for them? Your still x$ richer then you would be if you legally enjoyed playing on the game, Id call that for monetary gain. Also, the argument that its not theft since the company hasnt spent 'any money' on the game means that it isnt illegal seems stupid to me and by that logic if I intentionally declare a tax return wrong then its not illegal because the government never 'had' that money in the first place so Im not taking anything from them |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 886 Joined: 14 May 2008  |
A humorous parody to anyone who's seen the anti-piracy ads in the UK. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 578 Joined: 10 Oct 2008  | The games company treat their customers like they are pirates so the real question is why shouldn't we act like them? They install DRM X which is meant to protect their game but only results in the people who bought the game having problems getting the game to run. Now some folk will say keep the copy and download a cracked version of the game, that way you are at least morally right. Well yes but in a big freaking way NO. If the game company wants to punish me for buying their game then the process works both ways and I think I would be equally right to return the game and then punish the game company further by downloading the game they tried their hardest to prevent me playing when I purchased it legally. This of course is spit balling, the only game that I've ever been unable to install on my system due to wanky DRM was Crysis, I returned it and later that day had a shot of it on a mates PC at which point found out that the DRM wasn't the only wanky part of the whole Crysis experience safe to say I saved the bandwidth and never got round to downloading the game. |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
Who have you taken the game from exactly? Here, let's test your resolve shall we. Let's same I'm a genius and and I'm a crack video game designer to boot. Now let's say I go to my friend's house and watch him play a game. Then I go home, and over the course of a week, I spend every moment of my life copying that game to a T. I get every detail I get right. So, does this game I've poured an entire sleepless week into make me guilty or not? Ah, how much resolve do we have about this now. Under the eyes of the law, I would be guilty, because what has been stolen are not physical objects, but ideas. It doesn't matter if I draw those ideas by hand, if I paint them in MS paint, or if they're put together by torrent. Companies currently own mental space. It didn't always use to be this way. See, we used to have these things called "Libraries." America's founders thought they were important enough to establish them and subsidize them. See, these were places where you could get these things called "books," they were like the games of the time, and then copy the information within as much as you wished. Hmm. I really doubt something like that could happen these days. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1557 Joined: 31 Dec 2007  | According to the producers of these games, terrorism AND world hunger is ALL PIRATES FAULT. There's scare tactics, then there's stupid. |
BANNED  Posts: 1198 Joined: 6 Sep 2008  |
I never called it theft, I called it stealing, which is "to seize or use something without the owners permission". I would argue that internet piracy is indeed this. I would agree that maybe the analogies are innaccurate though. Piracy is more like plagiarism in my eyes, which I also think is a terrible thing. User was banned for: Banning poems from schools in the UK. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2486 Joined: 29 Nov 2007   |
Uh, I think the part that the courts find illegal is the whole reproducing of the game without the company's permission part. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 61 Joined: 23 Dec 2007   |
Difference between monetary gain or just not spending the money for whatever reason. |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
You haven't said a word different from what I've said. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2486 Joined: 29 Nov 2007 |
Uh, I think the part that the courts find illegal is the whole reproducing of the game without the company's permission part.[/quote] You haven't said a word different from what I've said.[/quote] The whole "to think thoughts you are not allowed to think" is pretty different from what I said. So is "To allow your thoughts to exist inside thoughts that belong to someone else." I don't really know what that's on about. |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 | No, we've said the same thing here. It's ok, I'll recap for you. Companies have declared that they have sole ownership of certain concepts. Quite literally, their "intellectual property" is ownership of certain ideas. Certain thoughts. This much is not debatable. When a person "infringes," or trespasses, on a piece of "intellectual property," by say, copying a game, they are experiencing the concepts and ideas contained there in without the company's permission. That is their crime. To "infringe" is to trespass. The word doesn't have another meaning. The only difference in what you and I have said, is that you think this is a fine state of affairs and I don't. I would ask someone like you to defend libraries, but I fear this is simply "it's a law so it's a law" mentality. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2486 Joined: 29 Nov 2007 |
I never said I thought there was anything fine with it. I would defend it except that isn't how a copyright works. A basic wiki would've explained it to you. You're mixing it up with a patent. A copyright gives you sole ownership of the expression of an idea for a finite period of time. So if two people made a movie based on Romeo & Juliet, they aren't infringing on one another because they are separate expressions of an idea. The play itself is now too old to be protected by a copyright. You may have noticed that there are a wide variety of FPS games. The reason those don't infringe on each other is that you can't copyright an FPS. It's an idea. You can copyright your own unique expression of that idea. When you download a game without paying for it, you are reproducing their expression of an idea without their permission. That's illegal. The law isn't meant to be fair to you, it's meant to be fair to everyone. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 666 Joined: 3 Jul 2008  | Agreed that Illegal downloads are bad and wrong, but not -theft-. I've referred to it as digital counterfeiting. Look at the definitions of counterfeiting and you will see that the term aptly applies. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1080 Joined: 11 Sep 2008 | Well to throw my two cent in... If they made content and material that was WORTH paying for then I *might* feel bad. Doubtful but maybe. The stuff i feel is worthy of purchase gets purchased. The stuff that i feel is a load of ballocks but will occupy my tiny attention span for hours will be cloned whether they like it or not. (example: Spo..well actually i bought that one coz i thought it'd be worth it and turned out to be ballocks...better example!...cant think of any coz surprisingly all of my recent stuff that i can buy is actually bought...apparently I've become law abiding...when did i turn good from evil bastard? wierd...) anyway moving on: I pretty much only download things i cant get here today (or within a year) like dexter, house, Naruto, Bleach (They take at least 5 years and the dubs are horrific. I'll stick with fansubs tyvm since your translators are useless bastards and your voice actors sound like molested children on speed rather than proper emotionally relevant characters. |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
Ok, so you're telling me I don't know how copyright works, and then offering an example completely inapplicable to the situation? You know, I've been following copyright for a really long time, and I'm really wondering if you just checked the wiki for yourself here. A play like Romeo and Juliet cannot be owned because it's so old it's in the "public domain." It cannot be trespassed upon, and those two separate plays cannot be considered as trespassing upon each other. Why bring the public domain into this conversation? It's a pointless example. Now, you seem to have really stupidly gotten hung up on the use of the word idea. I was not talking about the idea of a first person shooter. I was talking about the ideas, experiences, and expressions contained within works of art. Those can and are copyrighted. Now, I made all this clear. To assume I was talking about things covered by patent is to almost willfully misinterpret me. And if we want to sit here playing ridiculous semantic games on the difference between the words "idea" and "expression" tell me so I can get out now.
And here it is fair to no one. I can't help but notice you've yet to defend libraries. I've got my fingers crossed for you, and I'm holding my breath. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
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