World of Warcraft's new expansion Wrath of the Lich King to me feels almost like a new game. I've only recently completed some of the major storyline chains in Wrath of the Lich King such as the Battle for the Undercity for while which watching the cutscene a few quests prior made me actually care about what was happening.

I mean when Saurfang the younger died that was a proud moment to me because I remember a few months ago in the plains of Nagrand that it was this orc whom I helped reover his warrior heritage and here he was being struck down in a blaze of glory. Honestly to me this was weird I usually sit there skipping through dialogue or yelling at quest givers to just hurry up and give me my damn gear, but now I was proud of something in a game which I had'nt even accomplished myself.

I've played through a bit more since then and I'm still yet to encounter anymore truely epic things story-wise but on the whole Wrath of the lich king seems to be alot unique in the way it is told and the things that happen in it.

What I'm trying to ask here is does anyone else feel this way? Or have I made it different only because I wanted it to be different and really it's just more of the same.

Go collect 50 snow wolf pelts!

I don't play WoW but the new epansion sound good, I couldn't put myself through grinding to actually play it, but it sounds good.

smallharmlesskitten:
Go collect 50 snow wolf pelts!

I guess I kind of asked for a reply like this but what I'm saying is why am I collecting the wolf pelts am I doing just coz they're kind of annoying and we can make stuff out of it? Or am I doing to support the refugees of a town that has been overrun by thousands of evil scourge?

stormcaller:

smallharmlesskitten:
Go collect 50 snow wolf pelts!

I guess I kind of asked for a reply like this but what I'm saying is why am I collecting the wolf pelts am I doing just coz they're kind of annoying and we can make stuff out of it? Or am I doing to support the refugees of a town that has been overrun by thousands of evil scourge?

Does it really matter. In the end the story is going to be: Kill X so you can save Y, then kill Y so you can get money.

Yeah, Blizzard have put in a lot of effort, and a lot of people enjoy the lore. I don't. There have been maybe five games in the last decade where I've taken an interest in the story they're trying to tell, and WoW certainly isn't one of them. Which is a pity, because it would be really nice if something I invested so much time in also stimulated my mind a little more.

But yes, if you get enjoyment out of it, that's a good thing.

smallharmlesskitten:
Go collect 50 snow wolf pelts!

yep, and they all have a 3% chance of droping.

enjoy grinding.

I have my warhammer where I'll be punting dwarfs into a pool of lava.

I mean when Saurfang the younger died

Spoiler tags? Prick -_-

Jursa:

stormcaller:

smallharmlesskitten:
Go collect 50 snow wolf pelts!

I guess I kind of asked for a reply like this but what I'm saying is why am I collecting the wolf pelts am I doing just coz they're kind of annoying and we can make stuff out of it? Or am I doing to support the refugees of a town that has been overrun by thousands of evil scourge?

Does it really matter. In the end the story is going to be: Kill X so you can save Y, then kill Y so you can get money.

Kill Covenant so you can save Earth, then kill Flood so you can get paid.
Kill monsters so you can save Midgar, then kill Sephiroth so you get paid.
Kill hordes of soldiers to save your Kingdom, then kill officers so you get paid.

I just applied that very same setup you listed above to Halo, FF7 and Dynasty Warriors. Intriguing how similar it is to an mmo, no?

I've yet to play WotLK, looking forward to it though, it'll definetly be bringing back some WC3 memories, as I hear there's a working CoT: Strat instance with Mal'Ganis and more than a few cutscenes relating to Arthas' rise to LichKingdom, including when he first takes up Frostmourne and kills Muradin, which is pretty cool.

Amnestic:
[quote]I mean when Saurfang the younger died

Spoiler tags? Prick -_-

Very sorry on that one and uhhh noob question incoming, how?

If you play WoW to extend the Warcraft storyline than you are looking in the wrong place. WoW has many plot holes and problems like new factions constantly emerging for the smallest reason possible that doesn't make much sense.

stormcaller:

Amnestic:

I mean when Saurfang the younger died

Spoiler tags? Prick -_-

Very sorry on that one and uhhh noob question incoming, how?

[ spoiler=Whatever you want your spoiler to say before clicking] text inside the spoiler [ /spoiler]

Take out the spaces inside the closed brackets to make it work.

Or just quote me:

Dommyboy:
If you play WoW to extend the Warcraft storyline than you are looking in the wrong place. WoW has many plot holes and problems like new factions constantly emerging for the smallest reason possible that doesn't make much sense.

So the game actually progresses with new factions being created and you complain? Well that's an interesting take considering how many other people complain about it being a totally static world which never ever ever ever ever changes.

Lore went pritty much out of the window when WoW was created. In an MMO inviroment story takes a back seat...not even that, its not even in the theatre, its still trying to by a ticket...No! Its back home, watching tv, then looking down at watch and saying "OH shit! I was suppose to meet Grind and PvE at the cinema an hour ago!"

Dont get me wrong, I loved the Drainei (sp?), but they made no sense what so ever in the WoW universe.

Dont get me wrong, I loved the Drainei (sp?), but they made no sense what so ever in the WoW universe.

Hold up. That's not entirely true. The Draenei were in WC3: TFT, admittedly they were Broken Draenei but they were there. They were pre-established. Heck, there were some Lost Ones (A faction of Broken I believe) running around the Swamp of Sorrows and the Blasted Lands way way before TBC was released. Now as for the Pure Draenei which you get to play as, I would disagree that they make no sense. How necessary they were is another matter entirely. The whole malarky with the Naaru seemed like a bad case of Deus Ex retcon and I wasn't a fan of it. Oh sure, watching A'dal normal hit the Fel Reaver for 250,000 damage was hilarious, but I'm still not a fan of the naaru in the lore. Luckily they moved away from that it seems with WotLK.

For clarification: Draenei made sense, but were not necessary.

Alot of people have been saying WoW isnt the place for storyline etc. but that means when there is something major it is quite interesting and that is pretty much what Wrath is.

Also: Finally more of the Titan story line but if this means Sargeras is in the next expansion I will,
1. Commit suicide
2. Quit WoW

... probably not in that order

stormcaller:
Alot of people have been saying WoW isnt the place for storyline etc. but that means when there is something major it is quite interesting and that is pretty much what Wrath is.

Also: Finally more of the Titan story line but if this means Sargeras is in the next expansion I will,
1. Commit suicide
2. Quit WoW

... probably not in that order

They've got the Emerald Dream next, do they not? They need to finally get around to rescuing Malfurion and Ysera from the corruption (Neltharion, perhaps?) that's causing all the issues the druids are/were having.

Plus they could do something 'crazy' like introduce a new villain.

Amnestic:

stormcaller:
Alot of people have been saying WoW isnt the place for storyline etc. but that means when there is something major it is quite interesting and that is pretty much what Wrath is.

Also: Finally more of the Titan story line but if this means Sargeras is in the next expansion I will,
1. Commit suicide
2. Quit WoW

... probably not in that order

They've got the Emerald Dream next, do they not? They need to finally get around to rescuing Malfurion and Ysera from the corruption (Neltharion, perhaps?) that's causing all the issues the druids are/were having.

Plus they could do something 'crazy' like introduce a new villain.

Yes, personally I'm hoping for Maelstrom, Emerald Dream and then maybe the Twisting Nether (sarg and such) but if Pandaren dont show up as a playable race I'm still gonna resort to my 1.,2.

Amnestic:

stormcaller:
Alot of people have been saying WoW isnt the place for storyline etc. but that means when there is something major it is quite interesting and that is pretty much what Wrath is.

Also: Finally more of the Titan story line but if this means Sargeras is in the next expansion I will,
1. Commit suicide
2. Quit WoW

... probably not in that order

They've got the Emerald Dream next, do they not? They need to finally get around to rescuing Malfurion and Ysera from the corruption (Neltharion, perhaps?) that's causing all the issues the druids are/were having.

Plus they could do something 'crazy' like introduce a new villain.

Or the Maelstrom/Well of Eternity perhaps? Maybe even Undermine will open up, doubt it though hehe. Or even unlikelier than that: We bring Pandamonium!

As for WoW having no story, it does. And while in the past it has been somewhat the game's fault in not being engaging enough at times, a lot of the blame can be put on the players who don't take the time to go out and actually -look- for it -_-'

However, these new elements, the cutscenes, the way some areas will update themselves as players complete the quests to change a storyline, means that while quests still are a means to and end, one of those ends is plot progression, albeit a little small at the moment in terms of the scale the player's actions have.

GothmogII:

Amnestic:

stormcaller:
Alot of people have been saying WoW isnt the place for storyline etc. but that means when there is something major it is quite interesting and that is pretty much what Wrath is.

Also: Finally more of the Titan story line but if this means Sargeras is in the next expansion I will,
1. Commit suicide
2. Quit WoW

... probably not in that order

They've got the Emerald Dream next, do they not? They need to finally get around to rescuing Malfurion and Ysera from the corruption (Neltharion, perhaps?) that's causing all the issues the druids are/were having.

Plus they could do something 'crazy' like introduce a new villain.

Or the Maelstrom/Well of Eternity perhaps? Maybe even Undermine will open up, doubt it though hehe. Or even unlikelier than that: We bring Pandamonium!

As for WoW having no story, it does. And while in the past it has been somewhat the game's fault in not being engaging enough at times, a lot of the blame can be put on the players who don't take the time to go out and actually -look- for it -_-'

However, these new elements, the cutscenes, the way some areas will update themselves as players complete the quests to change a storyline, means that while quests still are a means to and end, one of those ends is plot progression, albeit a little small at the moment in terms of the scale the player's actions have.

They pretty much stated they won't be putting Pandarens and/or Pandaria in the game beyond Chen's barrel quest in the barrens. :( Shame, really. I'd have loved to play a Drunken Brewmaster class. "I'll put it on your tab!" "Ale is my bear necessity!" "Now, YOU'RE endangered." "Prepare to get trashed!"

Heh. I'd just have a bunch of /yell macros hooked up to my attack buttons for whenever I used it.

Amnestic:

GothmogII:

Amnestic:

stormcaller:
Alot of people have been saying WoW isnt the place for storyline etc. but that means when there is something major it is quite interesting and that is pretty much what Wrath is.

Also: Finally more of the Titan story line but if this means Sargeras is in the next expansion I will,
1. Commit suicide
2. Quit WoW

... probably not in that order

They've got the Emerald Dream next, do they not? They need to finally get around to rescuing Malfurion and Ysera from the corruption (Neltharion, perhaps?) that's causing all the issues the druids are/were having.

Plus they could do something 'crazy' like introduce a new villain.

Or the Maelstrom/Well of Eternity perhaps? Maybe even Undermine will open up, doubt it though hehe. Or even unlikelier than that: We bring Pandamonium!

As for WoW having no story, it does. And while in the past it has been somewhat the game's fault in not being engaging enough at times, a lot of the blame can be put on the players who don't take the time to go out and actually -look- for it -_-'

However, these new elements, the cutscenes, the way some areas will update themselves as players complete the quests to change a storyline, means that while quests still are a means to and end, one of those ends is plot progression, albeit a little small at the moment in terms of the scale the player's actions have.

They pretty much stated they won't be putting Pandarens and/or Pandaria in the game beyond Chen's barrel quest in the barrens. :( Shame, really. I'd have loved to play a Drunken Brewmaster class. "I'll put it on your tab!" "Ale is my bear necessity!" "Now, YOU'RE endangered." "Prepare to get trashed!"

Heh. I'd just have a bunch of /yell macros hooked up to my attack buttons for whenever I used it.

Well thats a damn shame I always thought they could do a Lost Islands sort of thing with Pandaria and the Goblin homeland

Thing is with WoW, they can't go and make WoW 2 because how many people have spent how many hours making their characters on this one. Ridiculous.

What I don't get is the ads that say "YOUR DEFINITION OF EPIC IS ABOUT TO BE SHATTERED". The game is not epic, that would require it to be FUN. It's all just more "Fetch x for NPC y" quests and one-click combat.

And the story is shit.

Fatalis67:
What I don't get is the ads that say "YOUR DEFINITION OF EPIC IS ABOUT TO BE SHATTERED". The game is not epic, that would require it to be FUN. It's all just more "Fetch x for NPC y" quests and one-click combat.

And the story is shit.

Have you played WotLK?

I'm asking you out of interest, because personally I don't believe you have. I think you played a trial for WoW going into it thinking it was going to be shit and came out of it thinking it was shit. I'm willing to put some of my hard earned English pounds that you haven't touched the expansion.

fedpayne:
Thing is with WoW, they can't go and make WoW 2 because how many people have spent how many hours making their characters on this one. Ridiculous.

Do they need to make WoW2? This isn't Everquest or Guild Wars, this is the largest MMO ever made, like it or not. What's to stop them simply bringing out expansions to make the game larger and larger?

Oh, and apparently Blizzard are working on a "Next-Gen MMO", though no one knows what it's about and it's all very hush-hush. Common consensus is that it's going to be a new IP.

I suppose my biggest "beef" with MMOs in general these days is the pointless automatism with which everything happens. Click monster. Watch animations. Click next monster. Repeat ad nauseam. PvP? Click each other. Strongest wins.

Now that's not even true, there are dozens of skills in most MMOs, saying you just click a button and "strongest wins" is equivalent to saying you just click the Shoot Portal button and you win the game. Neither are true.

stormcaller:
World of Warcraft's new expansion Wrath of the Lich King to me feels almost like a new game. I've only recently completed some of the major storyline chains in Wrath of the Lich King such as the Battle for the Undercity for while which watching the cutscene a few quests prior made me actually care about what was happening.

I mean when Saurfang the younger died that was a proud moment to me because I remember a few months ago in the plains of Nagrand that it was this orc whom I helped reover his warrior heritage and here he was being struck down in a blaze of glory. Honestly to me this was weird I usually sit there skipping through dialogue or yelling at quest givers to just hurry up and give me my damn gear, but now I was proud of something in a game which I had'nt even accomplished myself.

I've played through a bit more since then and I'm still yet to encounter anymore truely epic things story-wise but on the whole Wrath of the lich king seems to be alot unique in the way it is told and the things that happen in it.

What I'm trying to ask here is does anyone else feel this way? Or have I made it different only because I wanted it to be different and really it's just more of the same.

Wrath of the Lich King isn't unique in utilizing cut scenes to tell a story for MMORPGs. CoX did it first, and from everything I've seen it did it better. From the CoV side, the running storyline of being one of Recluse's chosen ones and what that really means, the running mystery of the Shivans, the Crey empire on both sides of the game, and the many cutscenes involving Jenkins being an idiot drew me in. Especially its repeated use of canon characters, the various signature heroes and villains and their little underlings.

Oh, and the rivalry between the radio and the TV.

EDIT: Also, the 5th column and their disappearance and, finally, return in the Midnighters patch was a particularly interesting and enjoyable storyline.

[/quote]

... You're trying to compare a race car to a bicycle...

In MMORPGs you have an assortment of skills... And you generally use 2 of them... 3 At most... K, so you click on someone, then on 3 - 4 different keys (an extra one to spam potions).

HUGE ordeal. Needs a lot of skill and concentration... Totally not something you could do with your eyes closed after clicking the enemy. You totally need to aim and plan a strategy and everything. /massive sarcasm

Any battle in these games can be faithfully replicated, and often predicted, with a spreadsheet.[/quote]

Ok you got me there on the skills, but have you ever raided or done late game pvp? One is a test in patience,understanding and co-ordination getting 25 people to move all at once is no small task. And in PvP it's a frantic match of kill or be killed you have to watch your back for rogues every minute(and theres enough of the buggers) you have also be co-ordinated to get up to 40 people who you have no idea who they are to focus on accoplishing one goal at a time, I'm pretty sure spreadsheets can't do that.

Caliostro:

Amnestic:

I suppose my biggest "beef" with MMOs in general these days is the pointless automatism with which everything happens. Click monster. Watch animations. Click next monster. Repeat ad nauseam. PvP? Click each other. Strongest wins.

Now that's not even true, there are dozens of skills in most MMOs, saying you just click a button and "strongest wins" is equivalent to saying you just click the Shoot Portal button and you win the game. Neither are true.

... You're trying to compare a race car to a bicycle...

In MMORPGs you have an assortment of skills... And you generally use 2 of them... 3 At most... K, so you click on someone, then on 3 - 4 different keys (an extra one to spam potions).

HUGE ordeal. Needs a lot of skill and concentration... Totally not something you could do with your eyes closed after clicking the enemy. You totally need to aim and plan a strategy and everything. /massive sarcasm

Any battle in these games can be faithfully replicated, and often predicted, with a spreadsheet.

Assuming I'm going one on one with someone who's equally or better geared than I am on my brother's rogue, I'll be using at least a dozen or so skills which'll vary depending on the opponents class (I don't need to kick a warrior, but I might need to Dismantle them, something not required on a mage or warlock). Any battle betewen bots can be faithfully replicated with spreadsheets, but the human element adds randomness which cannot be predicted no matter how you try. A rogue might normally Cheapshot, hemo x2 then Kidney Shot before DPSing, othertimes he may blow his vanish straight away to chain two Cheapshots together before Hemoing and Ksing for an extra combo point. Sure it means he's lost his vanish, but if he's specced hemo he'll probably have prep. What if he's combat and he's got killing spree? That's 5 free hits he's got no matter how you move. An adrenaline rush can rape most opponents simply because of Sinister Strike spam. Heck, if Blade twisting procs then you've got no chance of running.

Sure, you *can* boil it down to a spreadsheet, but such a spreadsheet would be so complex no human could work off of it unless they were quite literally a prodigy. You need to be on the ball and ready to counter whatever they do. Do you CloS the fear or do you trinket it and CLoS for the Howl of Terror? Should you just vanish to avoid both? Perhaps risking a sprint-dash towards the Warlock to get a kick in to lock down their Shadow school.

It's not as simple as people make it out to be and anyone who's played top level PvP knows this, be it 60, 70 or 80.

Richard Groovy Pants:

Caliostro:

Amnestic:

I suppose my biggest "beef" with MMOs in general these days is the pointless automatism with which everything happens. Click monster. Watch animations. Click next monster. Repeat ad nauseam. PvP? Click each other. Strongest wins.

Now that's not even true, there are dozens of skills in most MMOs, saying you just click a button and "strongest wins" is equivalent to saying you just click the Shoot Portal button and you win the game. Neither are true.

... You're trying to compare a race car to a bicycle...

In MMORPGs you have an assortment of skills... And you generally use 2 of them... 3 At most... K, so you click on someone, then on 3 - 4 different keys (an extra one to spam potions).

*ahem* I'm sorry but no.

For the time that I played WoW I was a mage mostly dedicated to PVP and had a few PVE on the side. Granted that PVE is basically 1 button spamm but PVP is oh so different.
The following was my keyboard key binds setup. Be shocked.

Q= Strafe Left
E= Strafe Right
WASD default move

1=Coldsnap
2=Arcane Missiles
3=Scorch
4=Water Elemental macro (summon, attack, freeze)
5=Ice Barrier
R=Frostbolt
F=Fireblast
X=Ice Block
C=Frost Nova
V=Polymorph
G=Rank 1 Frostbolt
T= Cone of Cold
Mouse 3=Counterspell
Mouse 4=Ice Lance
Mouse 5 (wheel depress)=Blink
Numberpad Enter=Arcane Explosion
Numberpad + = Mana Shield
\ = PvP Trinket
B=Summon/cancel Mount

Shift Keys:
Shift+2=Rank 1 Blizzard
Shift+3= Shoot Wand
Shift+4=Icy Veins
Shift+5=Spellsteal
Shift+R= Fire Ward
Shift+G=Frost Ward
Shift+C=trinket
Shift+V=Evocation
Shift+T=Cone of Cold Rank 1
Shift+Numberpad Enter=Use mana gem
Shift+Numberpad + = Use healthstone

------------------------------------------------------

That was for PVP ALONE. So that whole 1-2 key argument is very very flawed. Granted that mage is arguably the toughest class to play with though. Oh so very much handicapped we are/were :(.

Amnestic what classes do you play? Just curious.

Christ!, thats a big list and I thought balancing piercing howl,hamstring,bloodthirst and slam and a few others was hard.

Note to self: NEVER play a caster pvp.

Richard Groovy Pants:

The following was my keyboard key binds setup. Be shocked.

By all the fury of Moradin's hammer.
You have humbled me.

Fairly impressive keybindings. I never needed things like that as with a rogue I could basically click my skills thanks to GCD and I never actually bothered to get into the proper PvP aspect. I was more than happy trolling around battlegrounds jumping on people and then noticing they had four people behind them.

My Warlock was specced destruction. My keybindings on her consisted of:

Mouse Scroll up: Shadowbolt
Mouse Scroll Down: Lifetap
1: Incinerate
2: Deathcoil
3: Fear

And that was pretty much all I used. I was glass cannon specced and I did it bloody well! ;D I'll tell you though, spending four hours on a raid night just spinning your mouse wheel is bloody hilarious.

And here i am with a fury warrior, by definition the least subtle class in the game, pressing 6 different buttons before my second strike lands. When farming. Being a non-epic geared warrior, PvP is pretty much pointless so i'll stay away from that.

I'm not realy far into the expansion but one thing they didn't live up to:

They said we were going to be interacting with Arthas the moment we set foot in Northrend. I spent my first 2 hours hunting down human cultists and vikings before i actualy got to fight the Scourge itself. And it was another afternoon before i got my first glimpse of the much touted omnipresent lich king: A 20 second dialogue with another deathknight.