I think we're all well and tired of hearing the same groups constantly complain about how piracy, something that has NEVER existed before (/sarcasm), is now hurting them and causing loss to the gaming industry.

We've all heard how it's "our" fault for not supporting the media, yatta, yatta yatta... I say otherwise.

Ironically the other day I was going around just browsing and I stumbled across this little gem

The first thing I noticed was that they had a Net income (prophit) of -$454 million USD (that's negative four hundred and fifty four million dollars in case you're not paying attention). And for a second I wondered. Was it possible? Where they right? Was piracy to blame?

Then I looked at the rest of it: It seems EA earned, this year, $3.665 BILLION USD. Apparently they rack up anywhere between 3 to 4 Billion a year... Most of us can't even conceive this kind of money... 3.7 Billion dollars is more money than most of us will see in our whole life. Several times more.

So why are companies like EA loosing money?

Well, my first hint came slightly bellow those numbers in that page: Apparently they're hiring a small country. 7900 people under their payroll... That's SEVEN THOUSAND AND NINE HUNDRED PEOPLE... Why does a company need nearly 8000 people? Maybe if you're the army...

On top of that EA seems all too happy to throw money around purchasing companies (like DICE), fucking over their customers with DRM (cause obviously nothing makes a customer happier than renting a game for full purchase price) and mass producing low-quality titles.

Piracy is hurting you EA? I say you're hurting yourselves. I say piss poor management, greed, awful public relations and downright atrocious calls are dragging you down.

Ironically a company like Valve doesn't seem too concerned by only making around the 70 million mark (again, more than most of us will ever see regardless)... They also happen to have 160 people instead of an army.

What's your take on this? Is piracy and game rentals to blame for the downfall of big companies, or are they just digging their own grave?

Caliostro:
*SNIP*

You should probably change the title of this thread because after the first page nearly nobody reads the OP and it'll just end as another piracy thread. I think piracy still has an effect but having 7900 people on the payroll isn't going to help your bank balance.

Richard Groovy Pants:
*SNIP*

I'll reply to the part that isn't stamped [FANBOY], joking.

I think the reason L4D had less seeds and leechers is because it is played online and on Steam which means an illegal copy won't work while NFS is mainly single player and having an illegal copy won't effect how it works offline.

Richard Groovy Pants:

perfectimo:

Caliostro:
*SNIP*

You should probably change the title of this thread because after the first page nearly nobody reads the OP and it'll just end as another piracy thread. I think piracy still has an effect but having 7900 people on the payroll isn't going to help your bank balance.

Richard Groovy Pants:
*SNIP*

I'll reply to the part that isn't stamped [FANBOY], joking.

I think the reason L4D had less seeds and leechers is because it is played online and on Steam which means an illegal copy won't work while NFS is mainly single player and having an illegal copy won't effect how it works offline.

No it's not.
There's a single player in it and the AI does pretty well actually. And no you don't need steam to play it.

I'm saying that it is played online, not that it is only online. I don't think I can explain this without sounding like I'm patronising you.

It's not a huge secret that big games companies lose a lot of money, every time they release a game they make a loss and have to recoup their losses.

Well, I've heard of people downloading spore etc, just in protest at the heavy handed DRM approach of EA, as in ' I don't even want to play spore, but after reading this I'm gonna download it then just delete it so it registers as another 'lost sale' to EA, the (dissolves into abuse).

I do think tho, Valve offers quality, customer service, long term patches and extra content, and doesn't treat us like criminals for paying them money.

I think anyone who knows about gaming, given the choice of a similar game from Valve or EA, is going to buy the Valve game. EA throw so much cash just into advertising and DRM that you know they can't be spending as much on , you know, talented game designers, artists, bug fixers , etc. I tell you tho, as Frankie Boyle put it, (admittedly on a different subject)

'The guys at the top aren't out of a job, its the little guys that are suffering from all this, the very worst that the top level executives might have to do is Ebay one of their ivory figurines of Satan'

Is piracy hurting? Well, I picture if nobody ever bought a game, game developers and publishers would end up suffering from it.
Take Valve, if everyone bought their game, but they never got a penny from it, they wouldn't be happy anymore, and they wouldn't be 160 anymore.
Is that deniable.

But people pirate games BECAUSE of bad management. So piracy is hurting directly, but the root cause of the problem is companies not giving respect to the people who pay their wages. It's like saying the tumour is a problem, but cancer is its cause. Should we just remove the tumour, or cut out the cancer entirely?

Edit: I made this post before I read SenseofTumour's name. How coincidental.

blaming the game company for your piracy actions is kind of odd. That's called 'blaming the victim' if someone is a poor company you don't justify your thievery by it, that's like saying "These candy bars are sub-par and taste bad, so i can steal them"

Well just take a look at Spore. EA made a pig's ear of the DRM there, and people pirated the game because of it. How is the company not to blame for selling us a rental copy, for all intents and purposes?

Edit: And it's less like the candy bar isn't nice. It's more like selling a candy bar whose wrapper you can't open, thus rendering you unable to eat it. How could anyone justify that?

Sombra Negra:
Well just take a look at Spore. EA made a pig's ear of the DRM there, and people pirated the game because of it. How is the company not to blame for selling us a rental copy, for all intents and purposes?

Edit: And it's less like the candy bar isn't nice. It's more like selling a candy bar whose wrapper you can't open, thus rendering you unable to eat it. How could anyone justify that?

It could be a collectible candy bar, never removed from wrap.

But seriously the facts remains, good games that are well publicize and designed well are not as pirated as much as games that well stink. So if EA has such a problem with people hacking and cracking things then they should take the hint and start trying to do some quality work.

On a side note, does any one feel that it is wrong to pirate a game that never came out in your country or one that has not been released yet in your country?

blood77:

Sombra Negra:
Well just take a look at Spore. EA made a pig's ear of the DRM there, and people pirated the game because of it. How is the company not to blame for selling us a rental copy, for all intents and purposes?

Edit: And it's less like the candy bar isn't nice. It's more like selling a candy bar whose wrapper you can't open, thus rendering you unable to eat it. How could anyone justify that?

It could be a collectible candy bar, never removed from wrap.

But seriously the facts remains, good games that are well publicize and designed well are not as pirated as much as games that well stink. So if EA has such a problem with people hacking and cracking things then they should take the hint and start trying to do some quality work.

On a side note, does any one feel that it is wrong to pirate a game that never came out in your country or one that has not been released yet in your country?

In regard to your last point, I don't see how it could be a bad thing. The company who makes the game evidently doesn't intend to sell the game to you, so they won't have lost a 'potential profit.' No harm done.

ace_of_something:
blaming the game company for your piracy actions is kind of odd. That's called 'blaming the victim' if someone is a poor company you don't justify your thievery by it, that's like saying "These candy bars are sub-par and taste bad, so i can steal them"

There are better ways to go about it.

In my line of work, we ask you to sign a written contract stating you want to proceed with the job. We tell our customers, when they ask, that this is just so we have confirmation to prevent misunderstandings; if I have a piece of paper on my desk saying "Mr and Mrs Smith want to order this", then I know it needs to be ordered.

What we don't tell customers is that the other reason we do this is so you can't rob us. If we have a written contract that you signed, you can't turn around later and say "I never ordered that!". I don't think we'd have any customers if we went around saying "sign this because we don't trust you." It's simply a sad fact of life that if we don't get written confirmation, people will waste our time and cost us money.

The point is there is a limit to how far a company can go to 'protect' itself, and the line has to be drawn before you piss off the customers. If you aren't going to break any rules, it doesn't hurt you to sign a piece of paper. Likewise, it doesn't really hurt me to have to type in a serial number off the back of the box during installation.

However, it does hurt me when the game company start dictating how many times I can install their game. It does hurt me when they secretly install malware on my PC. In short, it hurts me as a customer when I'm treated as a criminal just for purchasing the title.

EA and their DRM / SECUROM go way too far. What's the point of protecting against Piracy if nobody wants to buy the legit copies for fear of destroying their system?

By that same reasoning, it's ok for me to take your car for a joy ride when you're at work, because you evidently didn't intend to drive it during that time, so no harm done?

Archon:
By that same reasoning, it's ok for me to take your car for a joy ride when you're at work, because you evidently didn't intend to drive it during that time, so no harm done?

No, that's taking someone's property without consent. With piracy, you're not actually taking anything physically tangible. It's more like plagiarism, the theft of an idea, than taking someone's car. Besides, you might crash the car. By pirating, you're not threatening to infect every single copy a company sells with malware, though they do that intentionally nowadays.

Footnote: I have NEVER pirated a game in my entire life. Don't call me a pirate just because I want a modicum of consumer rights.

i dont care much for piracy and i agree with you on the subject i just find it unfair to we the dedicated group and loving group of video game players who goes out buying the games we wanna try and love to make the company a profit and its a shame that pirates get the games fro free and at the same time with added features, thats the only part that bothers me about piracy

Sombra Negra:

Archon:
By that same reasoning, it's ok for me to take your car for a joy ride when you're at work, because you evidently didn't intend to drive it during that time, so no harm done?

No, that's taking someone's property without consent. With piracy, you're not actually taking anything physically tangible. It's more like plagiarism, the theft of an idea, than taking someone's car. Besides, you might crash the car. By pirating, you're not threatening to infect every single copy a company sells with malware, though they do that intentionally nowadays.

Footnote: I have NEVER pirated a game in my entire life. Don't call me a pirate just because I want a modicum of consumer rights.

"Physical tangibility" has never seemed to me to be the qualification for whether or not a property right is being violated. I have far more vested into my creative works - ideas - than in my physical possessions. Steal my car and I can get a new one. Steal my idea and you have robbed me.

I made/make no accusations towards anyone based on what they say on the boards. It's philosophical discussion to me.

Archon:
By that same reasoning, it's ok for me to take your car for a joy ride when you're at work, because you evidently didn't intend to drive it during that time, so no harm done?

I think a more accurate representation of how EA does business is "We are EA. We're selling you this car... but you can only drive it to and from work on Weekdays, and only to one additional destination during the Weekend. You can't use it at any other time. Oh, and we'll be tracking where you go in it using a system that is integrated in such a way as the car will cease to function if you remove it."

So, would you buy a car from EA?

No, but I also wouldn't argue that just because I don't like their car-business practices, theft of their cars is justified. I'd instead say that people shouldn't buy their cars.

It does seem pretty ridiculous that EA employs so many people. There are usually a couple people at every place of employment whose job could be cut and their workload wouldn't really affect the other employees too much, but it seems like EA definitely needs to cut out a large number of "floater" employees. I don't know what else they could be because the large number of employees are definitely not improving quality.

That is a point. I suppose it's one interesting area of our modern world; the idea of ideas.

People seem very distrustful of ideas. Specifically, some people seem to believe that Big Companies are actively seeking to steal and any all great ideas. I do actually know people who write really impressive works of fan-fiction, but refuse to post them in case the copyright holder 'steals' the material. Sad, but true.

If this concept is actually more prevalent than just a minority I happen to know, then it may explain why people feel 'justified' in stealing non-tangible products; if they believe companies like EA are out to exploit the ideas their fans share in good faith, then said fans may feel justified in exploiting EA when their trust is violated.

That is what this issue boils down to; trust. EA don't trust us. If they did, they wouldn't feel the need to penalise their legitimate customers. Thus, we have a situation where the Customers want what EA is producing, yet are punished for taking legal means to obtain it. The resulting cognitive dissonance could quite conceivably be resolved by the mental explanation of 'if we steal from EA in protest, they'll be forced to stop using DRM!'.

Archon:
By that same reasoning, it's ok for me to take your car for a joy ride when you're at work, because you evidently didn't intend to drive it during that time, so no harm done?

Are you a car salesman? Otherwise, the analogy doesn't fit.

Problem is, *no* other analogy fits--no one ever pirated a piece of software in a way that wrapped the master disc around a telephone pole.

+++++

Not to mention, the logic of piracy might be better compared to, say, the logic of not paying the performers of a song any money for not only broadcasting their works, but running a commercial, profit-seeking operation with their works as the 'hook' to bring in listeners to generate ad revenue.

It would be as if The Escapist only had to pay Yahtzee for writing those videos, but not for the actual creation of them.

Ironically, it's digital, internet music that is putting the first bit of money in the pockets of performers.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2008/tc20080611_272614.htm
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/06/recording-indus.html

The only valid argument is that piracy is demoralising the devs.

Publishers are just businessmen. If you don't screw them they will screw you.

Of course you have to fight piracy, otherwise it will spread.
But you will never stop it. It's possible but way too expensive.

Wargamer:
So, would you buy a car from EA?

EA doesn't make cars....

I (genuinely) didn't follow your argument, Cheeze. "Not to mention... not paying... for not broadcasting..." was one too many negatives...

My car analogy was simply to demonstrate that "no harm done" isn't a justification we permit for any other type of theft or rights violation, so to me it's a weak case to argue that piracy is OK because of "no harm done". I don't see whether I sell cars or not has anything to do with it, but perhaps you thought I was making a broader point.

Anyway, off to do work. I've stirred up enough trouble for one day. :-|

Valve has always been a great example that piracy is just a small tick sucking blood off of an elephant. It does damage but it is definitely not enough to weaken the beast. I think the real problem is quantity of over quality. For example right now there are WAY more releases than time for a normal person to play them all. So a person chooses several that he picks as best. This is why EA tends to whine, because they are a quantity releaser. If you intended to play their games only that year you'd still have a lack of time for it all, while companies like Valve and Blizzard make considerably small amounts of games, they make great profits because of quality. EA also made the "great" idea of putting DRM, which is a colossal pain the...

7900 isnt that many for a large international company to be honest. Not all of them are games designers. You'll have tech monkeys, managers, marketing, tech support?, alpha testers, reception, security, etc, etc. And does this include other studios they own? For example Mythic that recently brought us Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. They are now owned by EA, so are they included as their employees?

While I don't fully support piracey. I believe in the protection of ones creative property. I also, however, subscribe to the school of thought that is "no sale lost", as in. If it was never going to be bought, or isnt going to be released/no longer commercially available. There isn't all that much wrong with it is there? It is just data in a sence. Surely recording stuff off tv for a friend who is on holiday or busy is a copy right offence? Sometimes I have actually downloaded things in order to try them out, they might not have demos or whatever, and in the process of this I have gone out and bought said music/game/movie, I do it very rarely, and most of my purchases in the last 4 or so years have all been via steam.

Hyper-space:

Wargamer:
So, would you buy a car from EA?

EA doesn't make cars....

Did you read the entire post, or were you just going to quote the last line of it and try to make the guy sound like an idiot?

WolfLordAndy:
7900 isnt that many for a large international company to be honest. Not all of them are games designers. You'll have tech monkeys, managers, marketing, tech support?, alpha testers, reception, security, etc, etc. And does this include other studios they own? For example Mythic that recently brought us Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. They are now owned by EA, so are they included as their employees?

While I don't fully support piracey. I believe in the protection of ones creative property. I also, however, subscribe to the school of thought that is "no sale lost", as in. If it was never going to be bought, or isnt going to be released/no longer commercially available. There isn't all that much wrong with it is there? It is just data in a sence. Surely recording stuff off tv for a friend who is on holiday or busy is a copy right offence? Sometimes I have actually downloaded things in order to try them out, they might not have demos or whatever, and in the process of this I have gone out and bought said music/game/movie, I do it very rarely, and most of my purchases in the last 4 or so years have all been via steam.

The law is written so that if something isn't commercially available any more (something like Heroes of Might and Magic 2 or 3, the old Gold box TSR games) you can legally download it until it is re-released.

Hyper-space:

Wargamer:
So, would you buy a car from EA?

EA doesn't make cars....

You missed the point.

Anyways, getting into the psychology of things, pirating software that you would never buy but still want is stealing. Doesn't matter if it's just a more complicated version of ctrl-c ctrl-v, it's not "real" (bullcrap), and nothing is "lost". People still spent real time developing it, real money had to be spent to pay the people who spent real time on it, so they need real money to compensate. It's like saying it's OK to steal somebody's credit card number and go nuts on eBay, cause it's electronic, and therefor not "real" money.

I actually quite liked the car analogy, Wargamer.

Stopping piracy is going to be even harder than stopping theft of tangible objects, because it's harder to catch. I even admit that I have gotten some torrents of things, but that's because they were little 30 megabyte files that cost 1/5 the price of the computer i run them on. I honestly would buy them if i could afford them, but i can't spend that amount on something like that when I can't even buy myself an old GameCube game that i desperately want right now...Sucks being poor.

On reflection, I'm betting that I pretty effectively spat in grammars face, so sorry about that.

What it really comes down to is that it doesn't matter if bad management is hurting the company, because it's not a justification of piracy. It's just a poor rationalization. "Bad management is hurting them more than piracy is, so I'll just pirate away..." isn't really the conclusion to draw from this. If bad management is hurting someone, it sucks - but how does it help to compound the problem by illegally using their products without paying?

Let's use Spore as an example. People download the game because they don't like the DRM - okay, fine. But if they really *just* have a problem with the DRM and want a crack, that's not preventing them from buying the game legitimately and just installing the hack or hacked copy. That seems way more justifiable than out-and-out piracy. At least then you legitimately own the game, but are just using it in its DRM free mode. By downloading the game without paying you're really just proving the publisher right in finding you, the end user, entirely untrustworthy.

As far as things go, I actually own Spore. I've installed it once, and I'll probably never play it again, so the DRM really hasn't bothered me at all.

piracy is the reason why games cost 50 bucks.

Gamming companies would be willing to lower prices to $30 bucks but they have to factor that people will steal it.

I'm not even against SecuRom.

Just declare it and I will decide if I still want to buy your game.

secret SecuRom = Piracy