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Copy Clerk  Posts: 98 Joined: 19 Oct 2008     | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2229 Joined: 2 Aug 2006     |
An overgeneralized factor to solve a question born from an overgeneralization? Why not? :)
Honestly, whether you can deal with elfin male protagonists is going to be a question of personal taste, I don't think age has that much to do with it. I'm not drooling over them like a depraved pedophile, but I'm not majorly against them either. It's just a stylistic choice on behalf of the developers, nothing more. Personally, I'm there to play the game, not oogle the character design. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 98 Joined: 19 Oct 2008 |
Ok sorry, I phrased that wrong. I don't have a problem with the aesthetic of younger protagonists. I'm talking about how they act. I was referring to games that have protagonists dealing with not only raging monsters, but also raging HORMONES. They're overemotional and clearly in need to a little growing up. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2229 Joined: 2 Aug 2006 |
Isn't this also just a matter of stylistic difference of choice? The thing is, an absolutely perfect protagonist tends to be boring, so a developer will typically give them some kind of flaw. Superman had his Kryptonite. Kratos was cursed. And your average recent Final Fantasy protagonist is lacking in wisdom. Overcoming their weaknesses becomes the problem for which the resolution grants release in the story. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 98 Joined: 19 Oct 2008 |
Many of them don't overcome this flaw however. Cloud was still a whiny emo kid, even after Advent Children. Same with Squall. And Tidus. I'm trying to think of other examples that aren't from FF games right now, but I'm really tired. This example is from an anime, not a game, but it's still a good example of Japanese writers idea of character development: Inuyasha. In the anime, Inuyasha and Kagome spend 168 episodes together and neither of them can buck up and say "I love you" to the other. In the manga it apparently does happen, but WAY later. The character never develop, they don't grow. They gain levels and get stronger, but storyline wise, they're just as emotionally stunted at the end of the game as they are at the beginning. Many of the stories have plot twists placed in for shock value, a twist just for the sake of a twist. A good plot twist should help the character evolve and grow in some way. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2229 Joined: 2 Aug 2006 |
Maybe your real complaint here is that writers of these Final Fantasy games are being overly vague in its exposition. That, too, I would argue is a stylistic concern. They didn't want to be overtly clubbing you over the head with these moral concepts, and I wager something may have been lost in the translation as well. Just because they're making it difficult to read between the lines is pretty poor grounds to say Japan should pack it up to go home.
That's what you call milking the franchise. We're just as guilty of it over here in the states they are over there. Inuyasha and Kagome throwing that whole, "we're from other worlds and you're a half-demon" aspect away (not to mention the "a faux resurrected ex-lover for whom you may still have feelings for" aspect out) is basically gutting the franchise. They wouldn't do that until they're pretty much done with the series. To take some American examples, the X-Files isn't about to expose whether or not there actually was UFOs to be found or whether it was a conspiracy until they're off the air. 5th season of Lost coming soon, and the castaways still have no idea what they're dealing with. 8 seasons in Smallville, Clark is still a pretty lousy Superman. Darren isn't going to deal with Samantha being a witch. Lucy's not going to stop being a screw-up. Basically, it's pretty common procedure on both sides of the pond to have some kind of hook and keep it. Not many developers are willing to kill the hook by allowing it to resolve. Some do, and that's nice of them, but for the most part they prefer the cash cow keeps on churning. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 772 Joined: 25 Jun 2008    | And House will still be a pathetic emotionally stunted three year old solving medical mysteries with no basis in fact just in the nick of time. I would argue that While the characters you mentioned did develop somewhat their personalities to start with were less interesting than Terra or Celes or Zidane or Garnet or Kain ext ext. Still your right that they will milk the franchise as much as any other company. Hell how many WW2 games deviate from the 'go in and kick some nazi ass all by yourself because that was the last time the US was totally and unquestionably in the right' thing? I also feel responsible to point out though that the number of genuinely unique concepts is shockingly finite and between the booms of gaming we have gone though and the increased cost for producing a game the companies will want to stick with what they know will sell. This also means the number of japanese games hitting our shore is smaller every year because lets face it, the cost to produce the game then load it on a ship and stock it in stores somewhere else just does not offset the cost of having twenty graphics artists spending two thirds of the budget making and animating the models. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1149 Joined: 12 Aug 2008     | I agree with you on all your points...except that final fantasy has maintained its quality for better or worse. im not a particular fan of the series, ive played most of them (even if i haven't completed them) and i can confidently say that final fantasy has remained fresh and innovative. the only problem is...i can't stand their turn-based RPGness |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 968 Joined: 9 Oct 2007   |
Japan's obsession with arcades is negated by their complete and utter disregard with online play. Meanwhile, South Korea is too focused on certain games and genres to be anywhere considered a mecca for video games. Mecca for MMOs? Sure. Mecca for video games? Certainly not. South Korea is going to have to get away from the whole "GOOD GAMEPLAY = THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF BORING GRINDING" mentality if they want to be taken seriously with video game development. USA is the mecca once again due to the high quality gameplay and technology that is produced over here for video games. Not to mention, Japan doesn't have anything on the USA or Europe when it comes to indie development. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2229 Joined: 2 Aug 2006 |
I thought that way before myself, but in retrospect, it's cultural relativism. Eastern games tend to survive despite having grinds and depth, and I suspect it's because of a greater communal focus in their society. That's why games like Lineage could pull over 5 million subscribers. On the flip side, when we send most Western games over there, with a more individual focus, they tend to fare rather poorly. So it's not that our games are inherently better, it's just a different taste in culture. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 772 Joined: 25 Jun 2008 |
I'm sorry but the high quality technology part made me laugh. I'm sorry but console wise all the US produces are low rent gaming PCs that explode. Then again I am bias, I don't see the point in multiplayer games. If I AM going to play a game with someone else I am going to drive to their house. Even then though the US has really only done a passable job and is barely pulling away from the shooter mentality for the most part. Bathesda is good, and Bioware works when its not making bad Starwars D20 campaigns with overpowered sith lords. It really gives me the feeling of sitting at the gaming table with 'that GM'. You know the one I'm talking about. But while I will give some kudos for Mirrors edge and its ilk for the most part I don't see too much to justify calling us the mecca. We just suck less than we did a few years ago. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1066 Joined: 26 Jan 2008   | Well, we can look at the major franchises... - Mario - going strong I'm not going to be thorough right now but I think the truth is that while alot of Japanese developers are still making good games, they seemed to have missed the innovation train in the 21st century. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 857 Joined: 24 Mar 2008     |
What on earth is that? As for "the fall of Japanese developers" no such fall has happened. You are forgetting a couple vital points: 1. There are way more North American developers making games than there were in the eighties. The end result is that there are more culturally specific games to market to North American audiences that publishers are willing to invest in over localizing some potentially risky Japanese titles (localization is not really a cheap process). And, honestly, you've been around the forums, you know that there is more than one "The Japanese are so awesome, why can't I be Japanese? Who would ever waste their time on Fallout 3... The Japanese didn't make it." So... yeah... past their prime? No. Japanese game developers are the center of the billion dollar industry that is Japanese games. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3236 Joined: 10 Nov 2007 |
That would be a good example if you weren't citing something that happens for a completely different reason. The reason that Rumiko Takahashi's characters never actually admit their feelings is that it would effectively end the series, because whatever else is going on she's primarily a writer of romantic comedies, and the publishers aren't going to let that happen whilst it's still profitable, so it gets dragged out effectively indefinitely until the audience loses interest in the series and only then does it all get wrapped up. This is why only one of her long runners has a definitive ending, Maison Ikkoku. Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2, and Inu Yasha just kind of peter out and stop, rather than actually ending with any definite strength. (Though UY never had much of a continuity to begin with, as it was primarily gag based).
It's funny you cited Squall in your rant and then tried to claim this. At the start of the game Squall is pretty much a poster child for awkward withdrawn sociopaths, whereas at the end he's got at least a few friends and a fairly good chance of getting a shag.
Because no western developer would ever get eleven million subscribers on for thousands of hours to grind for purple drops, and treat it all as deadly Serious Business, right? Right?
It does, you just don't see it because it doesn't get translated. Touhou, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, etc. There's plenty of indie game development in Japan, but it stays there, because it's expensive and thus not profitable to translate. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 968 Joined: 9 Oct 2007 |
It not just talking about physical technology, but actually programming as well. In terms of physics, graphics engines, and the whole lot, Japan has fallen behind America in terms of development. Besides, who do you think was the primary developer behind the Cell processor? Oh wait, that's right, the American company, IBM. You could of course point to the shoddy development of the 360, but it's not as if Sony and Nintendo haven't also made shoddy video game accessories and consoles in the past either. This isn't something that I have just made up either: prominent developers, such as Square-Enix, Hideo Kojima, and Konami have all noticed the trend of Japan falling behind America. Likewise, it really doesn't matter if you personally like online multiplayer or not. The large majority of gamers do like online multiplayer and this aspect of gaming can't simply be ignored just because you don't like it. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 772 Joined: 25 Jun 2008 |
And? at least the PS3 does not blow up spontaniously. As for things like the graphics development or physics engines did you ever stop to think that they may be part of the problem? That perhaps we are over-extending into what we can do at our maximum effort rather than what we can do for a good price? Yes for some games I will agree a good physics engine is required, however having the most 'cutting edge' graphics and physics seems to be the thing cutting us off from producing the really good games that could be if games did not cost so much to make. Then those people who somehow seem to be image-sensative freak out if a game has even one pixel out of place. Yes we need to advance but like with anything else we should be doing so sustainably rather than just going full boar ad-hock and making it too expensive for any smaller companies to build themselves up without selling their souls to EA. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 968 Joined: 9 Oct 2007 |
Wow, nice job with the strawman argument. The original argument centered around America beating the Japanese in video game technology, not weather this technology was actually necessary. Nice going on completely failing there, Mr. Weeaboo. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2381 Joined: 6 Mar 2008   |
How/why is he a weeaboo? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2240 Joined: 12 Oct 2007  |
I don't think he really knows what it means. It's also funny that he brings up straw men when you actually look at the previous responses what Terra is talking about in the last quote block isn't a straw man at all. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2229 Joined: 2 Aug 2006 |
I have to say, I mind an accusation of completing failing much less when you assign the proper name to the quote. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 537 Joined: 9 Apr 2008    | Sega has given out some quality titles over the year. The problem may be that they tend to only advertise the shitty ones. Valkyria Chronicles and Yakuza 2 for once was superb games. But I do agree that very many Japanese developed games have very little innovetion in them. The only interesting Square game in years was for me "the world ends with you". Part of the problem may be that the japs still by games like dynasty warriors 9 etc. Same as every mom in the world apparently buys wii fit. I still like nintendo for some of their games though. |
On the Record  Posts: 5174 Joined: 21 Aug 2008    | Quite franky, Nintendo are the masters of surprise. They already said they were coming out with a new IP yet have not said a word about it. They also said they would make a more original Zelda and I believe that. I feel that the horse is not dead quite yet, as mario galaxy was truly original imho. I believe they may be the first ones to create a new console (or maybe Microsoft) possibly after 2010 methinks, and after Microsoft come out with their motion control iteration (I won't say ripoff solely for civility purposes). Sony (although milking it for all it is worth) has shown that maintaining two home consoles is possible, so it could very much work. Square have been pissing me off for some time now. From their lack of Wii support in terms of real titles, to their console exclusivity of Star Ocean, along with their total disregard of the PC. I know people say that PC gamers do not play RPGs, but there can't be a market unless they make a market (e.g. their force feeding RPGs to 360 owners and their push to get as many of them into the states as possible). I am planning to get a ps3 late this year, and have no intention of getting a 360, so I am praying it is only a timed exclusive. Also it is true that they pay little to no attention to the rest of their titles. I have been waiting for a chrono break for an eternity, instead we get about five spinoffs of final fantasy 7, If I see another one I think i'm going to cut someone. I know they said it wouldn't happen, but what reason could they possibly have to not make it? Toriyama is probably sitting around wiping his arse with ¥10000 notes, and feck knows what Sakaguchi and Horii are up to nowadays. The same goes for Secret of mana and their other titles like you said. The just ignore their stellar titles and just churn out average (in comparison) titles for the 360 to create a market. This is starting to get lengthy, so I won't go into much more detail. Valve are gods. Blizzard are good. Sony are arrogant bastards, case in point the ps3 (but I will probably still get one this year) but neither are past their prime. Nintendo are not past their prime yet, not in the least and I think this year will prove it. Their franchises practically raise young gamers into loyalists, and I feel that majority of the time they do enough to keep their franchises fresh (minus things like super sluggers). Things like metroid to metroid prime is fresh progression. General advancement from 2D to 3D done well is Yes you have the Mirror's Edges and the other concepts or works, but you also have the No More Heroes, the Bayonettas, and others. All in all your tastes have simply changed somewhat, that is all. The companies you have stated usually have not created something truly original, just something that appeals to you more than other eastern games. Perhaps before we point out the speck of dust in Japan's eye, we should check the space marine shaped plank in our own. Japan cannot be past it's prime if there are developers out there who create original works, and in fact, saying a country of developers being past their prime is somewhat racist. P.S. I was veering towards a more obvious and definitive point but I left this open for ages and now it's gone, plus i deviated a lot so I may have been rambling/waffling. I may edit later when I am more coherent. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2863 Joined: 14 Jun 2008  | Hmm... gee maybe Japanese developers are popular in Japan and American developers are popular in ... America. Two completely different cultures and two complete different preferences of gaming. So I believe in America we really just want to blow shit up, and that's what American developers are giving. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1652 Joined: 2 Nov 2008 | I was just about to throw out a long rant about how Japanese games didn't suck until I realized. You're RIGHT. I don't know how I didn't see how stagnant the whole Japanese gaming market's become. *sighs* Oh well, Japan's still the king of anime. edit: My bad, I don't mean the whole Japanese gaming market, that's a horrible generalisation. I mean, the whole ENGLISH Japanese gaming market. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 111 Joined: 4 Dec 2008   | This thread is starting to smell like vogue-cynicism, nostalgia, bias, and wank. Seriously, guys, only elitist RPG fans who hate everything are ranting about Japan falling behind. And by that, I mean wsterners who equate intellect to worth. We live in the west. So when we go to our local game stores, we see western titles. We look at the TV, and see western titles. Well, we're in THE WEST. Of course in an ethnocentric and xenophobic society, only the big fish in the other ponds will be visible with the awful telescope we're given. When it comes down to it, both gaming cultures are falling behind. We just live here so we're being bludgeoned with the games that are popular here. Everything is a franchise. These companies are old now. They're riding off of previous success. Most of them at least. And I will shamelessly go against the grain and say Square Enix is not one of them. If you want to say this and that or blow the other out of proportion due to the inevitable Gamer's Nostalgia, that's just fine. But there actually are people who really like the games made after the year 1997. In fact.. gasp.. things are actually likeable after '97! I'd hate for Enix to stop making Final Fantasy games because of the ridiculous backlash people have bandwagoned themselves into starting. There are always the bunch of people who claim that everything on the planet was better when they were young. And really, I wish people would understand if even just for a WEEK, that they're saying it for all the wrong reasons and it isn't at all constructive. It gets annoying when everything leads to "All RPGs (read: All 3D Final Fantasy games) are bad! And about emo (WHAT?!) feminine (....WHAT?!) boys (okay you got that one)!" There's plenty of people who like these games and play them with their eyes open and their hands on the controller. Please respect them. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3617 Joined: 7 Aug 2008 |
Yeah but Sega, which used to be a huge corporation, is now A Sonic team, and a director. So, you know, why exclude the director? |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 968 Joined: 9 Oct 2007 |
My calling him a weeaboo is a joke, due to the fact that he will go to lengths of using logical fallacies to defend Japan. I don't buy this whole "but it's just a cultural difference!" bullshit. That kind of excuse has a place, but certainly not in this discussion. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3986 Joined: 16 May 2008    | There has been a decline in the popularity of Japanese Games stateside... but there are many factors that go into it. I think the biggest factor is just that Japanese Games are overhyped to begin with, and always have been. They're probably about as popular as they should be. |
Paperboy Posts: 35 Joined: 27 Oct 2008  | Am I the only one who grew up playing American games? |
BANNED  Posts: 205 Joined: 29 Aug 2008  | I dont know how to say how right you are... i've played both the ps3 and the xbox360... and I now proudly own a 360 :) User was banned for: WHAT THE HELL?. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3986 Joined: 16 May 2008 |
how old are you, and what systems did you play? because there are a few different age groups and consoles where american gaming was stronger. If you grew up in the late 70s and grew up playing atari If you grew up in the 80s-90s and played mainly PC games If you are a little tyke now, and mostly play your Xbox 360 If you fall into those (or maybe a few others I may have missed) demographics, you played primarily american games. If you fall outside those categories, japanese games is pretty much all there was available. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 640 Joined: 19 Jan 2008 | I've been thinking about this decline of Japanese games on and off for the last few months. I think maybe the key thing to happen in videogames over the last ten years is the decline in Japanese games. I grew up in the early 90s with the SNES, Mario, Zelda, Chrono Trigger, Sonic and Final Fantasy a little later. But Japanese games haven't really moved on from the Mario era. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 640 Joined: 19 Jan 2008 |
Rubbish. Where something comes from defines what it is. How sad you have to use the racism card: very simplistic reasoning. Are you really 25? How many turn-based RPGs are made in the West? How many FPSs are made in Japan? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3986 Joined: 16 May 2008 |
Japanese games have gone in 2 different directions The Nintendo Route - Higher pixel resolutions for old familiar characters, samey games, trying to recreate legendary games and the Sony route - throw a bunch of cel shaded anime characters into a box, shake it around a bit, and spill it on the ground and hope a winner comes out. I mean, in all honesty, japanese games have been overrepresented for almost 2 and a half decades, it's about time that the rest of the world caught up and got a piece of the pie Sony and Nintendo have been sitting on for years. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 843 Joined: 4 Dec 2008   |
In my opinion, Koreans are too goddamn obsessed with online gaming. back to the topic, there are really some Japanese developers that are still going strong. eg Level 5 and that company still makes games with some flair. |
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So I have another question here, and I'm not trying to discriminate or anything, but I'm wondering if AGE plays a factor here. I'm 25 and I've noticed that many of my friends that are my age or older tend to steer further away from eastern games. I've noticed that kids around 12-18 are much more likely to be attracted to eastern games.
Obviously there are exceptions to that. Not everyone falls into those categories. I'm just wondering why that trend is present.
Is it because many Japanese games (and animes) place people of that age in the lead role? Many characters in eastern games are (or at least LOOK) about 16 years old or younger. Once again, trying to avoid FLAMES: I know NOT ALL of them do. But MANY do. Especially in Square games.
I'm just wondering.