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Press Junketeer  Posts: 484 Joined: 30 Jan 2008     | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1095 Joined: 6 Oct 2008    |
If you want to boil it down like you did, an FPS is just point and click. Pointing and clicking faster than the other guy is not skill. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1399 Joined: 7 Apr 2008     | anyone who thinks that MMO's dont need skill to play go watch a healer try and keep track of everyones hp and then find the coresponding heal for them while dispeling curses and avoiding agro. |
On the Record  Posts: 6207 Joined: 10 Mar 2008   | The average MMO takes as much skill as you put into it. I could join up a regular MMO and just go around killing random stuff, but that's not very strategic. Other players would proritize their stats, keep track of their inventory with more than just potions, and make sure they can take down the target with minimal effort, get armourware that increases their stats even more, and that takes skill to pull off. Now, if someone randomly plays an FPS, they can just jump on and start shooting things that shoot back at them, however that's not strategic. However, if I start playing one, I start thinking of priority targets, where they are, how I can eliminate them, and what's the safest/most beneficial way to go through the fire fight and that takes skill to pull off. Everything requires atleast some degree of skill, it's wether or not you put the effort in to become skillful. |
Muckraker  Posts: 294 Joined: 19 Jul 2008    | An MMO like Guildwars requires skill but when it comes to a mindless grind-fest like Silkroad Online then the only factor in deciding a win is the roll of a dice and the amount of time spent playing. Generally, the argument for "MMO skill" is weak since just about anybody can learn whats needed to be good at an MMO like World of Warcraft fairly easy, whereas games like first person shooters and real time strategy require some talent to really be good at them. I say Guild Wars is different because it requires leadership skills to really be good at the Player vs Player teams. I guess most MMO games require that but Guild Wars is the only one that really focuses on it. I voted no, by the way. :) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3405 Joined: 28 Jun 2008   | Everything requires skill at a basic level, but it all depends on ho-
Oh, bollocks, edit ninja'd. Damn you Jumplion! |
On the Record Posts: 6207 Joined: 10 Mar 2008 |
A ninja I am not! How insulting to a werewolf! |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 69 Joined: 3 Jan 2009    | Skill? Maybe. I guess it depends on the game. Many F2P games don't require more skill than click and hit your skill hotkeys as fast as possible and hope you don't die. However, there are a few games that require some level of skill. |
Paperboy Posts: 16 Joined: 14 Jul 2008   | Sigh... Most MMORPG's require skill to some extent. I've played end-game wow going into T6 content. You can tell when there is someone who absolutely dumb. The entire raid WILL DIE. You can't say WoW doesn't take leadership or organizational skills. Have you ever tried managing a guild of 100-300 people, making sure there are enough raid spots for everyone, and that no one gets really mad and leaves? Or else organizing 25 people into a coherent force so that they work as an effective machine? I haven't, but from what I've seen it looks pretty damn hard. There are no unbiased opinions, whether you play them or not. Even if you play MMORPG's devoutly, you can still think they take no skill. Example: I play shooters, I'm pretty good at them, I think they don't take much skill besides quick reaction, spatial intelligence, and situational/strategic awareness. I find them easy, whereas someone who is not as skilled marvels at my amazing feats of headshotty goodness. =P MMORPEGERS usually have very low level entry points and not an incredibly high learning curve. It is a basic business formulae. Make the game as accessible to everyone as you can, while offering LOTS of extra content to those who wish to pursue it. WoW had to have something to it to be able to build such a large player base, it didn't start with however many million people... This is almost the same indignation PC shooter players felt at the release of the console. They feel a condescension towards console players, and their lack of skill, much as many people feel a condescension towards MMORPG's because they too do not graps some of the skills required. Every type of game can be boiled down the same way as people do MMORPG's, thus proving they too require no skill: Shooters: Point and click and someone dies. Run around shooting things. RTS: Make ressources, make units, kill the other guy. Fighter: Mash the attack button 'till the other guy dies. However, I believe everyone who plays these games beyond a basic level will argue that I am dead wrong, that the game is deeper than that, and that it does require skill! "That game is not the simple atrocity you are trying to make it Sir! That is only a very shallow overview of some of the basics of that type of game, I am outraged!". you say. And thus I make my point. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1175 Joined: 17 Jun 2008  | I once had a hilarious "game" that was modelled after an mmorpg with all the time-consuming parts cut out. Moving between locations for example, finding fetch quests, selling loot, and even combat, since in an mmo everyone uses the same abilities in the same order anyway. You just put it on, and then either watched it or just went and did something else and watched your character slowly grow. Since everyone in an mmorpg knows the best gear too, the game takes care of that for you as well, and skills and stats. It shows pretty well how much skill is actually involved in playing most mmo's, when a computer can do it just as well as a player, if not better. |
On the Record Posts: 6207 Joined: 10 Mar 2008 |
Aimbots? Super-Nazis that can spot you 500 yards away and headshot you? The computer can do everything better than a human can, regardless of genre, that's why there's "Hardcore" modes where the AI is suped up and you die in 2 shots, or how the computer can get a whole battalion on your base, or how it can counter every single move you throw at it. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1079 Joined: 25 Feb 2008    |
So you found an app that displays some numbers that grow periodicaly? Or does the computer actualy play the game in the same way ai bots play in an fps? If no, your argument is invalid. I can write a program that displays the text "# headshots made so far" that slowly increases as time goes on but that doesn't mean playing an fps is easy as that too. They both require skills, but different ones. FPS games require fast and accurate clicking and limited situational awareness. MMO's require organisation and management abilities. Neither of them is any more "real" then the other and both have their uses. Yes, playing an mmo doesn't make you a great shot in an fps but neither is the average halo/cs/cod player going to win an old style alterac valley match. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1295 Joined: 19 Dec 2008    | If MMOs don't require any skill then how come so many people suck at them? ;) MMOs require a somewhat different skillset. They rely more on social skills, teamwork, planning, working the numbers, etc. On the other hand, action games (FPS, fighting and such) rely more on twitch and reflexes. MMOs still benefit from twitch (especially in PvP) and FPSs benefit from teamwork, but both to a lesser degree than the other. Saying that all it takes to kill an enemy in an MMO is to click on it and wait for it to die is about the same as saying all it takes to kill an enemy in singleplayer FPS is to point at it and click. Yeah, it's technically true, but that's hardly the pinnacle of the genre's challenges... Also, using WoW as an example of the MMO genre is a low blow since WoW is generally a bit on the easy side. However, it still requires fairly elaborate strategies to take down many of its high-level raids. Add to this the logistics of organising and running raids on a regular basis, guild dynamics, building characters (gear and specs), etc. etc. Overall, MMOs require skill and the OP is biased. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2464 Joined: 12 Jul 2008  | None of the ones I ever played needed skill, just a lot of free time and a high tolerance for repetition. I have neither of those. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1207 Joined: 17 Oct 2008   | -1 from YES, +1 to 'to a certain degree' |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2119 Joined: 2 Aug 2006   | I'm voting "no" simply because "to a certain degree" is too easy of an answer. Everything existing in degrees. MMORPGs are generally low on player influence in success or victory in the game, because the main reward mechanic is focused instead on persistence. They don't want to scare away players with a little thing like needing play the game well, so rewards are not based on how good of a player you are but rather how long you've played. Sooner or later, many players come to realize this. At that point, they are a MMORPG burnout. Congratulations on reaching the ultimate level: the level in which you realize how pointless wasting your time to accumulate artificial levels is. Fortunately, modern MMORPGs which are attempting to attract the attention of the burnouts are beginning to realize they need to add a bit of G to their MMORP. As for how effective they have been in these measures... well, lets cut them some slack and say that it is, after all, rather difficult to overcome the technical overhead of a massively multiplayer architecture. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1284 Joined: 29 Jun 2008  | I'd say I agree to a point. The only people with true skill on WoW and the like are level 80 people who have mastered power leveling...and frankly, that's no skill to be proud of... |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1399 Joined: 10 May 2008 | depends on what you compare it to, if you compare it to fps games, its about the same level of skill to become good at the game, but if you compare it to something that actually requires real skill, such as competetive RTS gaming, such as Starcraft and the like, MMO's take no skill (when compared to RTS), but yes, if you want to become good in an MMO, you need to have some sort of a skill. It varies greatly depending on what MMO you play, WoW for example is the easiest MMO i've ever played, takes next to no skill because its all about the gear, but Guild Wars for example, that takes alot of skill to master at higher levels of competetive play, i know, i used to play with some of the best players on american servers back when i played it, and in order to win you had to know exacly what specc to use, what spells to equip and what runes to use before the battle even started, so it took alot of planning and consideration. Conclusion: compared to RTS games, it takes almost no skill, but there are MMO's that take skill and not just gear. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1652 Joined: 2 Nov 2008  | Oh, I forgot to mention, it also depends a lot whether it's a point and click like.... RunEscape for example, or an action RPG like WoW, Maplestory and etc. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 631 Joined: 22 Dec 2007    |
TF2 and TF:Classic require (the games you gave as examples of skill): |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 479 Joined: 15 May 2008  | it depends how u play an MMO if u just want to lvl no it doesn't, unless the game is FFXI then it does, but if ur bent on being Mr.hero and trying to wipe out the other faction then yes it requires skill. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1399 Joined: 10 May 2008 |
I have played both a healer and a tank in end game raids (pre-tbc and tbc), and your argument is really flawed, none of those things are hard if you have the gear for it, for example, healing isnt harder than clicking a target than clicking a button, and as a tank, and ill use your example, when aoe tanking as a tank, you need to position yourself correctly and then spamm 3-5 buttons, it isnt harder than that, and i've tanked both as a warrior and as a paladin in end game raids... Yes, it can get stressful, no doubt about it, but its not hard at all, takes like 1-2 days of instance/heroic/raid to get the hang of it, after that its easy as hell. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1557 Joined: 31 Dec 2007  |
This is complete bullshit. You could make any genre seem easy by simplifying its goals. FPS - Shoot people, easy! See?! That is essentially what you have done. And your poll is biased. Throwing your contrary stance, indirect as it was, into a poll that is supposed to be even, is biased. And as for your last statement, just because someone plays an MMO, doesn't mean they won't be good at other games. Oh, and by MMO, I'm guessing you mean MMORPG. Because MMO isn't specifically a genre. You can have MMO sports games, MMOFPS games, MMORPG games... The list goes on. Just because it takes a different kind of skill, doesn't mean it takes no skill at all. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1175 Joined: 17 Jun 2008 |
It's not graphical, if that's what you're asking. It does play the game. You can check on all the stats, you can check what it's doing all the time, it tells you what it does all the time, that it's selling stuff, that it's buying stuff, etc. And yeah, I imagine some parts of an mmo does take management skills. Most people in the game though, aren't affected by that part. And I suspect a computer could do it just as well, especially with other computers.
No. No, no, no. No. With the same information, and the same tools as a human has a computer can be beaten, in a fair fight. If the computer has the same information as I have, and nothing more, then I (referring to me as a human, and not an individual, necessarily) can beat it. Not in an MMO, no, probably not in an RTS. In a shooter, yes, as long as I don't try a frontal assault. In a strategy game, yes, definitely, just look at chess. A human can outsmart a computer, and thereby outmanouver and defeat it. That's why it's more fun to play against other humans. It adds another aspect. Sure, a computer will always know better than you just how to maximize their damage output while minimizing the damage it takes, whatever the game, a computer is going to be faster than you, and a computer is going to be able to micromanage everything much better than you, but for all that, it can't outsmart you. It is not capable of creative thought or adaption, something that is required in many games, but not in mmo's. You can sneak up on it. You can divert its attention and you can trick and trap it. What you're talking about is abusing a game's mechanics, or even bending a game's mechanics to suit the computer "player". That's not what I'm talking about. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 391 Joined: 6 Nov 2008 | it depends on what mmo you are playing. the only one i ever played was runescape and it really only took persistance and effort to get by. combat was basically arena style sit back and watch stuff. sometimes you used healing stuff but that didnt have much strategy to it. |
Beat Writer Posts: 211 Joined: 7 Aug 2008   | Rarely do you need skill. The only time you ever do is 1-on-1 against someone close to your level. Otherwise, it's the battle of who has the worst social life. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 929 Joined: 7 Jan 2008  |
Agreed. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 217 Joined: 13 Apr 2008 |
a real TF player!! |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 63 Joined: 29 Dec 2008  | Skill (as defined on Dictionary.com): I'd say given the second definition, yes, all games take some skill to master timing, judgment, and accuracy; but the question is HOW MUCH? in my book. For, say, a fighting game, personal skill dictates how well I memorize which button combos do what moves and my judgment dictates how creatively I do them, plus my ability to time them correctly depends on the situation lest I get blocked or I miss entirely. This is one end of the spectrum for me. As for an MMORPG, I'd say all of those things come into play at some point in time, but from what I've found out, even an idiot who does everything wrong in certain situations can sometimes come out on top since the game has another layer to it: equipment and stats. This is the other end of the spectrum, again, for me. So, bottom line, I voted "no": it doesn't matter how much skill you have, the guy with the purplez (that's "epic" level equipment for you non-WarCraft players) will win most of the time. Only when EVERYONE is on the same level in terms of capabilities does skill truly come to the forefront (i.e. a Hardcore server in Call of Duty 4). |
On the Record Posts: 6207 Joined: 10 Mar 2008 |
A computer can do everything the player can do within the game they're playing. What you described in the original post was how a computer can micromanage and set up a character within an MMO when the computer can micromanage and set up stats in every game it's computed with. These "exploits" are how the computer was designed to play against you, enemy AI, and wether that's "fair" or not is up to the computer. You want examples that arn't "exploits"? Fine, the computer can aim, shot, run, punch, and do everything the player can do. The only thing that's keeping the computer from whooping your sorry ass is the difficulty settings you put it on. The computer always knows where you are and what you're doing, wether you're sneaking behind a guard or setting up the charges, but it's forced to be "fair" to a human person who doesn't know all these things. Example: You're sneaking behind a guard, and you throw a soda can to distract it. The computer knows you're there, but it is programmed to say "what was that noise?" and act stupid. It's the programing AI. You cannot "outsmart" the computer because the computer already knows what you're doing. It's just trying to defeat you within the rules. You can go on about how a computer can "never adapt with creativness" or whatever, but the only reason why it isn't grating your nipples with a cheese grater is because the programers want to make AI like a human so it's more "fair". In reference to your original post, MMOs take as much skill as you put into it just like any game, and saying that MMO's take less skill because a computer can do as good or even better job as a human is just ludicrous because a computer can do a better job at any game. |
Paperboy Posts: 35 Joined: 27 Oct 2008  | NO GAMES REQUIRE SKILL!!!! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1540 Joined: 6 Apr 2008  |
Nothing -requires- skill. It's just easier on the person who's got it. That is: Anyone can write a novel, it takes the person who is skilled to write a good one. Gaming is no different from any other pastime, job or vocation in this regard. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 393 Joined: 7 Feb 2008   |
Yay for Progress Quest. As for the topic, yes MMO's do take skill, but less than for example an FPS because equipment is a much bigger factor than skill (in most MMO's). Saying however that there is no skill involved whatsoever is just stupid. Why does the co-ordinated group win much more often if there's no skill needed? Teamwork is most definitely a skill. And so is a correct timing of using your abilities. It's very simple. |
Paperboy Posts: 35 Joined: 27 Oct 2008 |
Nothing -requires- skill. It's just easier on the person who's got it. That is: Anyone can write a novel, it takes the person who is skilled to write a good one. Gaming is no different from any other pastime, job or vocation in this regard.[/quote |
Beat Writer  Posts: 135 Joined: 1 Jan 2009 | As i've stated before I'm a recovering WoW addict (1 year sobre) and i've been a gamer all my life. However...I SUCK at WoW. I think the skill it takes is understanding how best to build your character and combine the skills to make you a badass. I never really grasped this, I was in it for the shiny things. So yeah...I voted to a certain degree. |
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On a side note, if you want a twitch skill related MMO, get Planetside.